Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

Subject 1

m'raf: wow, that clears up the smoke a bit abt kashmir. strange thing this politics is... but hey - \*do you think the old boy will clean up the mulla-swamp in pak? \*do you think he is up to

task to rid us of feudals next? the biggest evil of our society (jam family excluded fcourse!).

The religious parties were created by the military itself to (1) keep the two mainstream parties off-balance and divide their votes and (2) for use in the Kashmir policy. Now all that has changed and you must have heard Musharraf's speech. He's come down very hard on the Mullahs. As for the feudals, (Jam family excluded but what about Hashim ? He's more 'maasoom') their influence has decreased to a great extent in Punjab and NWFP, but they're still as strong as ever in Baluchistan and Rural Sind. This is because influence of feudals decreases as industrialisation takes place (then the villagers are no more dependant on the feudal for livelihood). Because there is very little industry in Rural Sind & Baluchistan as compared to NWFP & Punjab, this situation persists. But the feudals will automatically disappear with industrial development. People tend to think feudals are invincible but actually it is not so. Japan was perhaps the strongest feudal system in the pre-war era but indutrialisation changed all that. So were France, China and Russia, though they took the shortcut and staged violent revolutions.

empty vsls and all that jazz: you are right in theory - but in US, one who has media attn, gets thepizza !

1) this country is based on hype and sensation - so when you cant lick

'em - join 'em.

2) so tit-for-tat tactic is to go all out and drown india in verbal

diarrhea.......

3) only way you change public opinion in US is to stay in their faces.

4) you see equation is rather simple:

silence = guilt

laying it all out/coming clean = nothing to hide

Yes you're right. For some reason, Pakistanis are extremely weak in handling of media. Even though Musharaf has a knack for media and he did very well in his Delhi trip, actually got all the Indian media in his favor, he can't do everything himself. Also, Pakistan does not have any Information Minister since Javed Jabbar was fired and Musharraf has that portfolio himself, but probably can't give much time to it. I agree with you. Pakistan must do all of what you said and understand the psyche' of how public opinion in America is formed. Also, our embassies are pathetic and too incompetent to exercise influence over the media. India does much better than us in this area. But I was surprised that the leaders of powerful Pakistani-American organisations in US like Dr Rafique of Yonkers and others in Chicago & Washington have not uttered a word. It's very strange. Perhaps they decided it's too sensitive an issue, and to show their loyalties to Pakistan at this point could jeopordise their interests in US.

Babar was gearing to be a Senator one day, a State Governor - since he worked for Fortlee Police dept, he was fascinated by Intlelligence and wanted to work for FBI Intelligence -and now do you think he wl ever be trusted for such a post?

That saddened me. I think 9/11 changed the melting-pot character of USA. Now there are no Arab-Americans, Pakistani-Americans and so forth. Now they are Arabs and Pakistanis - Period. The definition of Americans seems to have changed, particularly illustrated by the ethnic profiling policies adopted and stop & search of Arab/Pakistani sounding names on driver's licenses. However, we must remember America is in a difficult situation and a great injustice has been done to it. First priority is for America to take all measures to protect itself. I hope this will come to pass, provided America is assured in due course that it's ethnically different citizens are not their enemies. After Pearl Harbour, America had placed all ordinary Japanese-American citizens in camps. It didn't happen this time. Maybe it was because the enemy's identity was clear then, but not now. Over time the loyalties of Japanese-Americans were tested and they were let off. That's the point. The loyalties of Pakistanis and Arabs inside US are under close scrutiny and rightfully so. If we are able to prove our first loyalties lie with the US, Americans are great friends, and maybe Babar can be a Senator. There was a famous question once asked in the British Parliament when the immigration policies were being discussed. The Minister had asked the Pakistani representative, I think it was Lord Nazir who's a Peer now, the question was that 'During a cricket match between Pakistan and England at the Lords, who will you cheer for ?' Think about it. This is an important question to the Pakistanis abroad.

i for one muslim, cannot live like this. I was never a back-bencher, a wall-flower - and never wl be. but before i go out there and make a claim, I want you to help me out by answering my questions. pls dont push me into depair by saying: "Very valid questions. One that I had asked myself and others many times searching for answers. No one gave me answers because no one had any.

Absolutely right. However I had also said " My conclusion through my experiences ( as I can only state opinions learnt through my experiences, not of others) are as follows ... " So I 'am' trying to answer all questions but I have already qualified that by saying these are only from my own experiences. Since I never got answers from others, I had to seek them myself from personal experience and they hold true for my life. However, I have also learnt that everyone's experience is basically the same, but they refuse to learn from it. That is why no one gave me the answers.

Are you saying muslim recognise their lack of character, their failures -and yet are too apathetic to do anything? why?

Muslims do recognise but it's because of lack of credibile & respected leadership over the Muslim world spectrum that they have failed to state the point. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was that leader but they hanged him for having the Muslim Summit in Lahore followed by the oil embargo of 1973. The nuclear programme was another factor.

ZA Bhutto was the main person behind the Oil embargo and made the Muslim presence felt emphatically. Others behind the oil embargo led by ZA Bhutto were King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, Qaddafi of Libya, President Bomadean of Algeria, Idi Amin of Uganda and ex-President Sukarno of Indonesia. These were all leaders of global stature and influence. Between them, they covered South East Asia, Most of Africa including Francophone region, all of the Middle-East, and much of the Far- East. What else was left in the Muslim geography ?

Out of the above list, ZA Bhutto was removed and hanged, King Faisal was assasinated by his nephew, Qaddafi has had many assasination attempts on his life including US bombing raids over his residences killing his young adopted daughter; though he has 9 lives of a cat, but his country is under all kinds of embargoes. Bomadean was overthrown and died in Jail. Idi Amin was overthrown and ridiculed. Now lives in exile in Jeddah totally silenced. Wonder he's still alive.

This was the person who had arrived unannounced in London through the Thames river by boat when he was President. When Queen Elizabeth asked him over dinner at the Buckingham Palace “ To what do we owe this unexpected honour, Your Excellency? “ He had replied ‘Your Majesty, there are no size twelve shoes in Uganda” Idi Amin wore size 12 shoes.

Sukarno had been removed by a military coup during the early years of the Unity in 1965, but still active even as an ex-President, but died in disgrace. Suharto had been put in his place who bankrupted Indonesia in 1997. He ran the country as a family business along with his 4 sons and a daughter, but is still a very rich man in Geneva's banks.

In the meantime OPEC's power was broken by splits within the OPEC using Kuwait and Nigeria. Oil prices fell from $ 50 a barrel to $ 18 a barrel. Kuwait could afford it because the Al-Sabahs had their personal money anyway from US handouts and had enough to keep their small population happy, but Nigeria is a large country with a huge and diverse population. It was bankrupted and had to declare a moratorium on foreign debt in 1985 even though Nigeria is the richest in resources in whole of Africa including South Africa but you only hear about South Africa. The person responsible for Nigeria's collapse was it's Transport Minister of that time, Umaro Diko, who has lived in London since and is one of the richest men in the world. There was an attempt once to return him to Nigeria when he was kidnapped and put in a container headed to Lagos from Gatwick. British security found him bound and gagged in the container and rescued him.

Agha Hasan Abedi was another such leader, with the difference that he wanted to unite not only the Muslims but the whole of the Southern Hemisphere nations which of-course includes the Muslim world, and align the resources of Muslims with resources of Africa as well as entire South America. That was what Global 2000 and the South Bank project was all about. South Bank would have been a parallel settlement system for the above nations and would have ended IMF and World Bank's monopoly. Therefore BCCI was shut down and the whole thing nipped in the bud.

Does all of above sound like a coincidence? Make your own judgements. I only stated the recorded history/facts.

Thus, I feel, if there is credible leadership to unite the Muslim world on common issues, everything is possible. Problem is no such leader is allowed to survive.

Are we Muslims waiting for West to deliver for us?

No. Muslims have to do it themselves. Leadership is the problem as I stated above. There's no Muslim leader who is a Statesman of global stature. We have to produce another ZA Bhutto or Agha Hasan Abedi.

Are we forever going to be content in ourselves by blaming "others" for doing injustice to us for past 500years? and thus be responsible for our failure - so far & until eternity?

But how can we recover? Blaming others of-course will serve no purpose, as we must accept we lost in the 17th century and didn't do anything to correct our mistakes afterwards. However, realities will have to be accepted. There must be an understanding of the Muslim world within the EU and the US. The Muslim population is a market of over 1 billion people, which is needed for the industry of ' Others' and creates employment in their countries. Add to that the Chinese, who have been wronged as well and sympethetic to Muslims, it comes to 2 billion. That's two fifth of the world poulation. Add to that North & Central Africa which is the darkest of the Dark Continent, and you arrive at three fifth of the world population and resources. Then there's whole of South America, which is in the dark as well, with countries like Brazil, which is larger than USA and has more resources, but bankrupt. Venezuela has huge Oil reserves and an Opec member but in the debt-trap. Taken together, it comes to maybe 70 % of the world's population, which should not be actually poor at all. Leave aside Central Asian Republics, Russia and India for the moment which are perhaps 25% so that adds up to 95 % who're poor, despite all their wealth, and the balance 5 % in USA and European Union are laughing all the way to the bank. So something must be very wrong somewhere.

I found the experience of the Far Eastern currency crisis of 1997 very enlightening. At that time I was working for an Indonesian conglomerate and visited Indonesia in that capacity. It's a vast and rich resources country, and the largest Muslim country in terms of population. Now it's bankrupt and at the edge of disintegration. It wasn't the country's fault at all. They had been led to a stage by multilateral institutions with the concurrance of their Government where their currency had become vulnerable. When that time came, there was an attack on their currency and Indonesian Rupiah went from 2500 to a Dollar to 18,000 to a Dollar in front of my own eyes. That was an 80 % devaluation in 2 weeks. To illustrate that, it's like if the Pakistani Rupee went from 60=$1 to 108=$1 in two weeks. Of-course that bankrupted the country because all their reserves were drained and transferred abroad and all the businesses and banks went bust.

Malaysia was attacked too in the same manner but they managed to survive because they have Dr. Mohatir Mohammed. He just shut down all foreign intervention and kicked out the IMF. Actually closed down his economic borders and placed severe restrictions on capital flowing out of his country. That saved the country but you know how hated he is in the global media. He's called a ruthless dictator and ridiculed for not allowing civil liberties and all. His Finance Minister was conspiring against him to have him removed and Mohatir found a very odd charge (you can research that on the net; it was very well publicised on CNN etc.,) against him and put him in jail where he is still languishing. Thing is, Mohatir knows what it's all about and just put his foot down. However, he can afford to take a tough stand, mainly because (1) Malaysia is well managed and not as ethnically & politically diverse, and (2) not surrounded by enemies. Other countries i.e. Pakistan are not as fortunate.

When the Far-Eastern crisis hit, it hit Thailand and Korea as well, but they were bailed out quickly. Hong Kong and Japan are too powerful so they weren't effected. China is a closed economy being Communist so it wasn't vulnerable in the first place. Malysia had prudent leadership so it saved itself by fighting back. Indonesia was the only country that was devestated because it had Suharto at the helm who has billions in Swiss banks. Remember Marcos of the Phillipines? He's another Marcos.

Thing is, nothing can be done with all the territory, population, resources unless there's a change in the financial and political system in the world. There are border disputes all around the undeveloped world, and political problems. Unless these are resolved through strong leadership, nothing can be done.

Are we foreever going to live in the glory of our post 17th century era (dream world for "what was") - or wl we get off our lazy ass to re-gain our lost respect by working towards it?

1. Are we going to stay in abstract and not focus on the real world - to

cure our ailments?

2. Are we shamelessly going to let each muslim nation by dogged & crushed in the most blatant appalling way?

The reply above refers to these points.

muslims not once defended islam by demonstrating to show their repulsion to terrorism or terrorists. they are hiding in their friggin' holes - speechless and pathetic, letting their white master dictate their fate. I am desperate becoz these terrorists bastards are bent upon wrecking our children's chances in the US, in the world.

That's because Muslims don't know what to say as the distinction between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is very thin. A terrorist becomes a celebrated freedom fighter if he wins, remains a terrorist if he doesn’t!

You see the meaning of the word 'Terrorist' has never been defined. Who's a terrorist after all? If it means attacking urban civilian populations, there was Menachem Begin, the ex-PM of Israel who was named a terrorist by the British during the Trucial States period and the British actually put a reward on his head; but he won and became PM of Israel. There's Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister of Israel who had decimated civilian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in Beirut. There is IRA who regularly bombed London including Harrods (remember we went to pick up my trousers after the bombing?), and the Shin Fein chief is now incharge of Northern Ireland. There was Che' Guevera of Cuba whose T' shirts were all the rage, and still are, whose attacks killed many civilians, but he's celebrated and became the head of Cuban Central Bank after his struggle. There's the Basque organisation which bombs Madrid all the time, and ETA in France. Let's see what those people will become if they win.

All of them do the above for their own causes and attack civilians for their own reasons. I can't understand why Muslims are the sole 'terrorists'. Perhaps it's because they are the only ones who kill themselves in the process so no one can say they only killed others. IRA or Basque or ETA don't do that.

Having said the above, I personally do not condone attacks on civilians. I think they are very wrong. No justification can be found for doing that.

I think the terrorist's definition could be Carlos the Jackal who was a mercenary. Maybe that's the definition of a terrorist because he did it for money and nothing else.

Certainly the effectiveness of Muslim urban struggle has an effect on our children's lives, but we must cope with it. There's nothing we can do to stop it unless the underlying issues are resolved.

And still all muslims sit on their fat asses and do nothing to come clean. all they do is talk of the good old days and "what was". It is enuf for them to believe Allah wl look after them since they alone are the "pure' ones - so no need to make any effort. Well, if they dont take action now, they wl be obliterated from this planet. this is how i see it. There have been many past civilisations that do not exist anymore.

Yes that's how it is. But Allah has said He will only help those who help themselves. That's where these people were mistaken in their understanding of Islam, they never understood. Allah has above all stipulated 'Haqooq-ul-Ibad' (rights of mankind) ranking over 'Haqooq-e-Taala (Rights of Allah). Allah doesn't help if one thinks just being born in the Faith is sufficient. That's no good.

However, there are many Muslims like you and me. Till we're there, the civilization will exist. The Roman empire failed to exist because no one was there who differed from their Kings. They all agreed with what was going on. But we know a little bit better.

i believe koran teaches us to take responsiblity for our own action or inactions - and not to blame others for our own degenerate failures. if we are true believers, we need to take the bull by the horn and do something obout our deplorable state - about our jaundice-laden impotency! it is suffocating me. pls help me understand why are we so pathetic and choose to stay this way? have we no shame? we cannot let our children walk down the street with their heads hanging low for being muslims - or is this ok - also? it is not just US that feels this way abt muslims - it is same in canada, europe - everywhere. it is no picnic to be a muslim these days - and what we are doing to change that view???

Accepted. That is how it is, and Pakistan is doing nothing about it because we have enough on our hands from India taking advantage of the situation. It's upto the Overseas Pakistanis to help and contribute in some way. So far the Overseas Pakistanis have done zilch, while we have borne the brunt. By the way 'Munni' is a political leader here now with her Maamoo's party and making lots of speeches, when I know all she was ever interested in was a big Land Cruiser ( she wasn't even content with a Pajero) and was doing underhand deals with her influence over 'Mamoo'. Since you are more knowledgable and motivated, why don't you take this path ? You can play a big role in correcting these misunderstandings because you know all sides having roots in Pak, bred in London, and working in US. Believe me, I have seen a lot of powerful people up close as have you, and they know a lot less than you and me.

Yes we cannot let our children walk down the street with their heads hanging low. No question about that. We will not allow it.

Subject 2

what ever happened abt finding God?

? About your question "ok so i totally u/stnd that you u/stnd the philosophy

of it - & you found God - so how do you translate it to real life?

? Ok so i totally u/stnd that you u/stnd the philosophy of it - & you foundGod - so how do you translate it to real life?we live in real tangible world - where you must keep abreast with modern culture, get up every morn and go to work on time in your designer suits and well shaven face, and must apply modern biz principals to perform you job adequately to make sure your pay check comes your way - and you must buy landcruisers and live in defence - so that you are not looked down upon by your confrere, you must find a place in the world first for yourself, then for your nation, your country, you religion, ultimately mankind. all these things are real, tangible and cannot be ignored. one cannot feed on ideology alone - one has to move with time - or one gets walked all over & left behind.

This is a very profound subject. Amalgamating God in one's everyday life is something, which must be discovered individually. For starters do reflect back and measure the ups and downs in your life and see whether any miracles happened to give you chances and did you pause and reflect. Also remember the people around you and whether you wronged them or did good. Nothing occurs without a reason. That's God's way.

I have been snatched from the edge of the abyss many times by God because I always knew Him. God is the only Tangible Fact. The Land Cruisers and Pajeros, careers, designer suits etc., are the intangible ones although one sees them as the tangible Truth when it's not. We all enjoy it though and I still wear my Armanis. So it's the other way round. But it's a bit premature to talk about that.

Subject 3

why is it that every country is helping afg'tan war-torn refugees- but

not one single muslim nation? (aprt frm turkey) what's up with that? as

fox's o'rielly said last nite "allah must be a little upset abt that".....what say you?

? but then it is also true that US was the one that armed iraq to teeth to

fight against it's enemy iran. isn't it? and iraq was kind of US ally, until it turned on US itself.

US didn't do it directly but had Iraq armed to the teeth through Germany and Britain.

Saddam Husain is still a major US ally. He has never turned against the US. The gulf war was a facade though the Iraqi people suffered the consequences.

When Iraq moved it's forces and tanks to the border of Kuwait, the American Ambassador in Iraq, April Gillespie, had said " We don't think it's serious and these are military exercises with no threat to Kuwait". Iraq ran over Kuwait next morning because it had the go-ahead. Saddam never turned on the US. He's still an American ally against Iran. That's why after American forces liberated Kuwait, entered Iraq, then turned back without toppling Saddam, and made permanent bases inside Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and UAE. In the meantime, Iraqi Kurds thought America was on their side and staged an uprising to unite with the Turkish and Iranian Kurds for a Kurdish homeland. Saddam turned on the Kurds and suppressed the uprising with chemical weapons. The details of that slaughter are not known but it was in the hundreds of thousands. That was after the war and within the no-fly zone as declared by the Allied forces. They looked the other way and let Saddam anthrax the Kurds. So whose side is Saddam on ?

No Muslim nation has helped Afghanistan because they don't want to step into the fray. Turkey is stepping into the fray now with aid because it can do that with the policy of 'saanp bhi mar jaey aur lathey bhi na tootey'. Turkey has the strongest cultural influence over the Central Asian Republics i.e Uzbekistan, Tajikstan, Turkeministan etc., of which Afghanistan is the gateway. These were all parts of the Turkish Ottoman empire and carry Turkish culture even though they were part of the Soviet Union since the Bolsheviks. Iran too has great Turkish cultural influence. Other Muslim Nation's leaders don't have a clue of what it's all about therefore they don't want to get involved even with Aid.

There's a vacuum in Afghanistan after Taliban, which Pakistan has not addressed as it is preoccupied with border defences. One enemy is enough on the borders instead of two. The Northern alliance is Pakitan's enemy aligned with India but Pakistan gave them control of the country to protect US interests. Turkey & Iran have dealt with it in a cautious way and stepped in with aid only after Pakistan won the war for the Americans. Easy isn't it ?

Remember, Pakistani military advisors were air-lifted out of Kanduz after they won Afghanistan for the US. This was the time when there was total US air-superiority over Afghanistan air-space. All that is recorded fact. Though Mr. Rumsfeld denies there ever was an air-lift of Pakistanis. Afghanistan fell with the Battle for Kanduz and the Pakistanis made it happen. The Pakistani military personnel were air-lifted out by Pak Airforce C-130's. However, the Pakistani non-military Jehadis gatherd in Kanduz for the last stand were left to fend for themselves as they were there without Pakistan's consent, and their loyalties were not known. Most of them died in Mazaar-e-Sharif in the prison uprising. If John Walker is allowed to testify, that 20 year old kid has a lot of stories to tell.

Afghanistan will be under whose influence in times to come? Not Pakistan for the time being I guess. It remains to be seen who will be the first chief of Afghanistan amongst Turkey, Iran and USA. I suspect it will be USA. One thing is for sure; Afghanistan will remain a satellite of one or the other state as it has always been, and treachery there will remain supreme as it has done through centuries. Karzai's treachery is already clear although no one sees it. He obviously has Mullah Omar as well as Bin Laden under his protection, and the world believes they just disappeared from the face of the earth. No one has asked the question that when Karzai became PM, both these characters were in Afghanistan. So where did they go ? Karzai couldn't have got Kandhar without these two people's support. They're right there with him. It's a very strange game, which US doesn't understand. Or perhaps they do; but looking the other way.

Subject 4

? i, for one, know you would fit in perfectly here. you prob get more

affected becoz you hear all anti-american slurs all the time in pak press - but you know things look worse from afar, than they really are. i wouldn't trade newyork for anyother place on this planet! I-love-ny!

Yes I would fit in perfectly in USA, except I would miss the Nehari and the Payas. They only have the fake pink chicken tikkas over there. But I luv NY too.

? Religion and culture are two separate animals. Thus a christian living

in Pak does not hold same social/moral/ethical values as christian in US. Note that the Italian Premier spoke of weak culture- not weak religion.

Yes that's true in case of other religions, but not Islam. The Italian Premier didn't know that and understandably so because it's difficult for most people to comprehend whether Islam is actually a religion or a culture. Actually it's both. Thereby the concept of 'Ummah', which applies to Muslims living anywhere and within any cultures but they all comprise the 'Ummah'. The 'Ummah' is not defined in Islam by territorial boundaries, which is a very important distinction to make. 'Ummah' is defined in Islam as 'Muslims' anywhere and everywhere.

You see, Islam integrates not only cultural/social/moral/ethical values, but much of economy as well. There's a concept of an 'Islamic Society' in Islam which is not there in any other religion. Islam seeks to be a complete code of conduct in all spheres of life. This being so, Islam cannot be adopted in parts, it has to be adopted as a whole. Only then an Islamic Society as ordained by the Qura'an and the Sunnah can exist.

Babar's Points:

What is the Patriot Ordinance?"

Beta, Patriot Ordinance is a new law promulgated in USA after 9/11, which restricts many civil liberties allowed previously. It gives sweeping powers to all federal agencies to take action directly without routing the same through the courts as was the norm. Under this law, the cases deemed to be connected to terrorism will go to seperate tribunals and not through the normal justice system in US. If convicted, there would be no right to appeal. Many people think it is a draconian law.

? All they see are those images of Palestinians cheering when the towers came down, and shouting ' Death to America' while holding the Quran. I can't blame them for thinking that way, with what they see through media outlets. It still astounds me how hesitant the powerful muslims here in the US are hesitant to come up and defend their religion. Slowly, though, progress is being made."

Yes. The people who were cheering were wrong. There's a Punjabi proverb which goes "Dushman marey khushi na kariye; Sajnaan wee mar janaan" Translation is " Don't rejoice when enemies die; as friends eventually have to go as well"

As for the hesitancy of the powerful Muslims in US, I have answered that elsewhere in this mail.

My observations:

Ø "No one rises so high as he who knows not whither he is going"

OLIVER CROMWELL (1599-1658)"

Ø Psalm 137 of New Testament. I love those verses actually.

That Psalm is recorded by BoneyM. It's called 'By the Rivers of Babylon'.

(Of-course you remember BoneyM)

Ø My conclusion through my experiences ( as I can only state opinions learnt through my experiences, not of others) are as follows:

One always has to have a premise to place the foundations of one's

personality, indeed the whole perception of life. That premise can not be

proven by our 5 senses of what's 'Real' and what's not. In order to find theTruth, one needs to take the route of discovering all Arts & Sciences.

Later …



Rgds