Mr. Sattar, the Muslim community does not consider Qadianis as Muslims

#161 Posted by sattar2 on June 19, 2008 10:35:39 pm

{"Salim (#133),
You used to be an intelligent man in a lot of ways; in a lot of ways that’s no longer the case. You’ve mischaracterized the issue, your facts are incorrect, and your reasoning is lame. Other than that you may have a point!"}

Sattar Sahib,
I am sorry to disappoint you with my loss of intelligence. That often happens when one learns new facts that one did not know before and those who formerly agreed with one no longer find one so pleasing - or rather intelligent. :)

My experience is based on, not one but two, self-proclaimed Qadiani Chowkies. They have openly insulted the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in the most vulgar and profane words and depictions imaginable. Because one of them is a frequent writer on Qadiani issues, I must attribute his blasphemy on some basis of Qadiani propensity for insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Perhaps some Qadianis perceive the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as a rival for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to being Allah's Messenger (Nauzbillah - God forbid - Aztaghfirullah).

{"Merely claiming that Ahmadi beliefs violate Islamic principles … is not enough. You need to validate this view. As far as I know, Quran and ahadith both support continuation of prophethood. What you and your ullema believe is your business, not mine. However, when you criticize others, you need to validate your viewpoint."}

Just the fact that you call yourself "Ahmadi" is a validation that you follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed rather than the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). You may consider Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as some sort of an obscure Prophet Jonah or Zakaria, but you certainly are not among his followers like the overwhelming majority of Muslims. If your beliefs were Muslim beliefs, you would not be referring to them as "Ahmadi beliefs."

My viewpoints are not influenced by any Ulema and I certainly don't need a convoluted misinterpretation of the Holy Koran or some obscure Hadith to corrupt my beliefs. God knows, enough people are doing that in the name of "Islam" already. Apparently, a devious and insidiously anti-Islamic person can justify murder, oppression of women, violence against women, slaughter of unbelievers, and even illiteracy by quoting some out of context verse of the Holy Koran or a Hadith manufactured as a pretext. The finality of the Prophethood of Our Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is the second most important belief of Muslims and NOTHING is going to convince us of the contrary.

There have been numerous false "messengers" in history and the mental institutions of the Islamic world, especially in UP, India were always caring for one Abraham, or Jesus, or Moses, or even Adam.

{"You cannot justifiably project comments of a few (one?) people as views of the whole community. Would it be fair if Muslims were demonized on basis of the views of Osama? Think carefully before responding. Check the writings of Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) before shooting off your mouth."}

Of course I can learn from the beliefs and expression of one, two, or more Qadianis as a metric for the beliefs of this religion. Either the profane Qadianis represent some other sect of your religion or you just act in a more civilized manner. In any case you have never publicly condemned or even disagreed with their profanity and insults. As for Osama or Zawahiri and others, many Muslims, including me, have openly condemned and rejected those extremist and clearly un-Islamic views. To me these irrational, bloody, and mistaken fools are still Muslim because they have not denied God or denied Our Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the final Messenger of Allah. This should give you an indication of where you rank.

{"In Quran Allah uses terms “Messenger” and “Prophet” for Muhammad (pbuh) and others. You are not in a position to trademark these terms and limit their use. Quran is your Book just as much as mine, Allah is your God just as much as mine, Muhammad (pbuh) is your prophet just as much as mine. You cannot take away my right to believe in them … you cannot force me to consider myself a non-Muslim."}

You yourself have taken away your "right" to be called Muslims, by corrupting the message of Islam, insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH), spreading disinformation about Islam to the world, and trying to dismantle the religion from within. The Muslim Ummah has recognized this malicious attitude and has correctly branded you as non-Muslim. Of course Allah is everyone's God - even of those who don't believe in Him. Also, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is everyone's prophet - even of those who dump garbage upon him, including Qadianis who associate false "prophets" after him and hurl insults and profanity upon his name.

Sattar Sahib,
If a Muslim disrespects Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and some Qadianis respond with insults against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as retaliation against Muslims, doesn't it follow that the Qadianis must consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as theirs and the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the Muslims'? So much for your statement about the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) being YOUR prophet as much as mine.

{"Your claims of exclusive rights over divinity will drag us to back to the Dark Ages. You may want to go there; I don’t.

No one is asking you to have “respect and affection” for Mirza Sahib. Neither am I asking non-Muslims to have respect and affection for Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh). People believe what they will … and life goes on."}

Sattar Sahib,
Why are Qadianis so hung up on the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a "prophet" or a "messenger?" There have been numerous reformers in Islamic history and most of them were neither insecure nor selfish to demand a status equaling that of Our Holy Prophet (PBUH). If Qadianis were genuine reformers, they should have impressed the Muslim community with their reforms and not put the issue of "prophethood" as their main reform. Ibn-e-Rushd, Ibn-e-Sina, Jaffer Al Sadiq, Jalaluddin Rumi, Moeenuddin Chishti, Saleemuddin Chishti, and many others tried to reform Islam but not one of them was selfish or stupid enough to demand "prophethood." When Bahaullah in Iran attempted this, the Baha’is themselves chose to leave Islam rather than insult their former religion by insisting that Muslims accept their leader as a prophet.

{"You may consider Ahmadis heretics - that’s your business. But you go too far when you support imprisoning Ahmadis for considering themselves Muslims. Your argument based on “laws of democratically elected government” would also justify legalized racial discrimination against African Americans. I hope you see the futility, nay - the dangers, of your views."}

Given the facts about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claiming to be a "prophet" or "messenger" of Allah, I do not consider Qadianis to be heretics - I consider them to be non-Muslims and therefore deserving of the same courtesy, safeguards, and respect that I would have for Jews, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, and Sikhs. I will not say that you are wrong, false, or mistaken - I will just say that you are not Muslim. The Catholic Church would have done far worse to stamp out deviations from what they consider mainstream. There were many "crusades" against Arians and other forms of heresy. I think that Islam has been far kinder to its aberrations - the Druzes, Alawites, Kharajites, and Wahabbis have not suffered as much as their Christian counterparts. But of course, the Qadianis have gone far far beyond these aberrations.