Why do we read Quran, even if we can't understand a single Arabic word???? This is a beautiful story.

What need to be done is to claim all the common heritage of humanity - all spiritual traditions. To know Quran's spirituality if someone is unable to see if from the book itself, they may benefit from reading Rumi or Ibn Irabi. You want to know life and works of Sufi saints who spread the word of love, and by that word of love Islam spread in India and many other area - no armies were sent to Indonesia for example.
I was not expecing that close mindedness from someone who know Bhudism and Gita. Maybe my assumption were wrong. This smaks of intellectual dishonesty: projecting as there are not factions and schools of thoughts in Hinduism or in Bhuddism. Like anyother traditions there are different factions in them. I do not like intellectual dishonesty especially from people who pose themselves as intlectuals. I respect every tradtion and I so enjoy when my friends of different tradtions share with me their spiritual aspect. I so enjoy it. And then I come across psuedo-intellectuals and all the enjoyment is spoiled in an instant. For such situation there is prayer in Quran - I seek prection from the 'sharr' - go find meaning of sharr if will. For me, there is no point explaining to someone who is closedminded.

guru, Gita also get misintepreted. Even you have talked about banning Quran and using force etc... and then there was Ghandi who from same Gita formulated ideas of non-violence. Where does Ghandi's non-violence stand in your view? I am very interested to know that. If you espouse not non-violence, this will be my last interact with you. I have neither time nor patience for people who cannnot respect life. If you do not then how you are different from Islamic fundamentalists?

"Quran is misinterpreted by many. "

If Quran is perfect and word of God why it gets misinterpreted? Do people say the same about Geeta, Dhamma Shastras, Jain Tirthankar's saying and writing.

For misinterpretation happens because humans have evolved. If I use umbrella to cover myself to reach to my car I need to close the umbrella when I am inside the car.

Closing the Koran in these times and especially in the subcontinent is a duty for the good of humanity.

There is Dharma and there are semitic religions. They cannot be equated. Semitic/Arabic religions are fundamentalist by design. They spread by violence, creating chosen people vs kafirs and try to own the state. Islam even today and Paulian of past do that.

dharma is spirituality. Spirituality is one, just as gravitational law or Electromagnetic Laws are one. Transition from Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) to Boudha or Jain was without any violence. Same is true about the reversion back to Sanatan Dharma after Adi Shankaracharya.

"Quran is misinterpreted by many. "

If Quran is perfect and word of God why it gets misinterpreted? Do people say the same about Geeta, Dhamma Shastras, Jain Tirthankar's saying and writing.

Koran is a military manual or equivalent to Kautilya's ArthShastra. It's devoid of true spirituality.

Like in any other tradition, as before I quoted Armstrong, there is religion and there is bad religion. So called fundamentalism is problem with any religion. There is lot of politics mixed with that too. I also don't have time to go into much detail here and this topic of course needs lot more justice than can be done in these interacts for now.
But use of force - I do not agree. I espouse non-violence of Thoreau and Gandhi. ... Quran is misinterpreted by many. A topic for later.

Middle way was not the "flash" under the Bouddhi tree in full-moon night or GuruPurnima which was few days back. When his sense of "I" dissolved, his awareness became so pure that there was no separateness from the Brah-man, the most broadened mind, the Self. He reached the mountain top. Now his journey started to help others to reach the mountain top. He found that the path he took was very arduous and prone to failures, so he came up with the middle path of series of "Aha" moments. He aplogized his wife and son for neglecting them when he pursued his "seeking."

Buddha was great so also Jaina, Adi Shankaracharya, Dnyaneshwar, Vivekanada and Ramakrishna because after their enlightenment they helped others in their enlightenment. Vivekananda has a very relevant sentence - "I do not want salvation, as long as there is a single sorrow-stricken man in India."

Helping the masses to experience "Ahaa" however small and the moments of "being in flow" is salvation. Second hand experiencing by book reading can be poisoning of minds.

I think we started from above sentence. A kid completely engrossed in basket ball game and a mother patiently waiting for him with shuji halwa are in the flow or Samadhi.

The reason for the dawn article is you to tell us what is in Koran which creates fundamentalist/extremsts Islamists.

1. The fundamentalists interpret religious commands, beliefs and principles literally and consider knowledge to be complete and final with no scope for discovery and change.


Does koran asks the believer not interprete Koran himself but take it literally? Does Koran forbid Ahmedi, Aghadi, Bahai, Alidi?

Ask similar questions to following points. The story in this piece asks for blind faith. My point is that you would clean your mind more by running back and forth to the river with leaky bucket than by reading Koran. For true Islam to survive Koran must not be touched. Anyway I do not have too much time. Best of luck to you! Indians need to be aware of the psychological disease which is spreading around it and among its Muslim citizens and be prepared to handle it if necessary with physical violence to protect Indian civilization.

2. Fundamentalism does not believe in human equality. Those who do not share their belief system are inferior and deserve different treatment.

3. Fundamentalism does not trust human intellect and wisdom. It, therefore, admires compliance and conformity and discourages critical thought.

4. Fundamentalism prefers the group over the individual and holds ends sacrosanct over the means. To keep its supremacy and control it considers itself free to take even those measures that may clash with the basic tenets of their belief system. An example is the resort to suicide bombings which is repugnant in Islam.

5. Fundamentalism is basically misogynic. It restricts females to roles within defined boundaries under men’s control.

6. Fundamentalism denies to man his endowed possibilities and constant accountability kills human initiative and drive for progress.

7. Fundamentalism establishes the rule of a minority group over the majority.

8. Fundamentalist leadership is imposed from above.

9. Fundamentalist decision making is not transparent and there is no clear procedure for transfer of power. Things are done in the interest of the state.

10. Fundamentalists claim the right to interfere and have the last word in all matters.

11. Fundamentalist rule cannot give equal rights to unequal citizens.

12. Fundamentalist governance is undemocratic, does not seek consensus and rules by decree.

13. Fundamentalists rule out freedoms like speech, writing, assembly and organization.

14. Fundamentalism lacks the flexibility needed for political survival and the system ultimately collapses. (This is the good news.)

15. Fundamentalist regime permits torture, accountability and sectarian disharmony as state policy and governance principle. 16. Fundamentalist rule thrives on fabricated anti state conspiracies.

17. Fundamentalist regimes keep looking for super human characters: a character in a Brecht play says, “unfortunate is a people who do not breed heroes; another remarks, unfortunate is a nation which is always in need of a hero.”

18. Fundamentalist society uses secrecy and lies in place of transparent dialogue.

19. Fundamentalists rely on casuistry when faced with embarrassing facts.

20. Fundamentalists fan sectarian, racial, linguistic and cultural animosities.

21. Fundamentalists exploit cheap slogans and promote negative thinking.

22. Fundamentalist governments soon get packed with sycophants and mountebanks of all varieties.

23. Fundamentalists adopt isolationist policies instead of joining the world community.


24. Fundamentalist regimes are a threat to regional and international peace.

Now you seem to be mixing things Sir. What is the relevance of the Dawn article in this discussion? No one talked about fundamentalism.
You did discuss one relevant point though - "get rid of .." means removing from mind" - but problem I pointed out is of the ‘APPLICATION’. You did not address that.
The point you made about Buddha just confirms what I said earlier 'that his ability to receive was a long process - he had been on seeking path for long and finding what works and what does not - and then finding the middle way in a flash of Nirvana"
I could not help laughing at your suggestion - (as though we can change realities by suggesting this or that) - “Series of Aha moments for masses is always better than big flash to few.”
You who refer to VLSI designs, how you don’t see that like in any other field, not all experts (or practitioners) are experts to the same degree, and any field of human endeavour is enriched by the experts and you and me can draw from those experts - but draw we must intelligently, not just monkeying it. ...(I am not referring to you for monkeying – I am talking in general) …. so on and so forth

He himself came to the conclusion that his wandering and pursuing different gurus was futile. He realized the guru appears even as an inanimate object when yu are ready. The real sadhana or effort is keping oneself ready. That is why he was emphatic about the middle path.

When whole India became Buddhist (Boudha) and Jaina this wisdom was not practiced. Sanyas became rampant. Young folks went out to forests and Himalayas. Kshtriyas became non-harming in physical sense. This was Adharma. India became velnerable for external aggression.

Balance had to be restored and Adi ShankaraCharya revived Advait based Vedantic Hinduism, Geeta is part of it. In Geeta Krishna asks to do the killing for the Dharma or Natural Law.

Series of Aha moments for masses is always better than big flash to few. Unless there is bread for all few should not go to Himalyas to butter their bread.

To "get rid of .." means removing from mind.

We need to remove fundamentalism of the book religions:

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July 17, 2008 Thursday Rajab 13, 1429



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Fundamentals of fundamentalism



Fundamentals of fundamentalism


Fundamentalism is a political movement to capture power and acquire control over national resources in the name of religion. It’s apparent aim is to establish a theocracy based on a literal interpretation of religious laws by rejecting and outlawing all social, political and intellectual developments that have been evolved over the centuries and returning society to that ancient age which in the fundamentalist view was pure and uncorrupted by developments of any kind. The fundamentalist group wants to impose absolute, total and unchallenged rule of religious leaders in the state and society through enforcement of a selected set of religious edicts and commands.

In an excellent essay appearing in the latest (45th) issue of Irtiqa that goes into the real aims and objectives of the so-called fundamentalists, Wajahat Masood discusses the nature of the movement in as much as it has nothing to do with religion per se or observance of its higher principles, spiritual values of compassion, truth and justice. Therefore, he argues, opposing fundamentalists does not mean opposing religion as such.

Fundamentalist groups exist in all major religions of the world and in their political inclinations they are not very different from each other. Wajahat Masood discusses how fundamentalism rose in the wake of the renaissance that weakened the power of the clergy in European society, and in Asia and Africa on the arrival of the colonialists turning local religious authorities against modern thought and its liberating influence on society. Then the industrial revolution with its concomitant social and economic complexities drove people to yearnings for the lost simplicity of rural life. The fundamentalist stance derived much strength when at the end of colonial rule new representative national structures failed to bring about the promised betterment in the life of the people. The concept itself grew among a group of Christian sects in America that felt threatened by the forces of modern knowledge and related social developments.

Masood explains that the fundamentalist movement is basically a revivalist, reactionary and fascist programme with very little scope for changes in society that may come about through human effort or initiative. Human society develops with the evolution of an integral structure of institutions, laws and values and civilises human nature while on the other hand fundamentalism seeks to reverse the direction of change and feeds society on fascist ideals of power, war and conquest and ultimately towards a return to the raw human instincts. A fundamentalist rule necessitates an insecure world.

The most interesting and illuminating part of Masood’s exposition is the definition of the 24 basic constituents of the fundamentalist agenda. I will briefly mention them:

1. The fundamentalists interpret religious commands, beliefs and principles literally and consider knowledge to be complete and final with no scope for discovery and change.

2. Fundamentalism does not believe in human equality. Those who do not share their belief system are inferior and deserve different treatment.

3. Fundamentalism does not trust human intellect and wisdom. It, therefore, admires compliance and conformity and discourages critical thought.

4. Fundamentalism prefers the group over the individual and holds ends sacrosanct over the means. To keep its supremacy and control it considers itself free to take even those measures that may clash with the basic tenets of their belief system. An example is the resort to suicide bombings which is repugnant in Islam.

5. Fundamentalism is basically misogynic. It restricts females to roles within defined boundaries under men’s control.

6. Fundamentalism denies to man his endowed possibilities and constant accountability kills human initiative and drive for progress.

7. Fundamentalism establishes the rule of a minority group over the majority.

8. Fundamentalist leadership is imposed from above.

9. Fundamentalist decision making is not transparent and there is no clear procedure for transfer of power. Things are done in the interest of the state.

10. Fundamentalists claim the right to interfere and have the last word in all matters.

11. Fundamentalist rule cannot give equal rights to unequal citizens.

12. Fundamentalist governance is undemocratic, does not seek consensus and rules by decree.

13. Fundamentalists rule out freedoms like speech, writing, assembly and organization.

14. Fundamentalism lacks the flexibility needed for political survival and the system ultimately collapses. (This is the good news.)

15. Fundamentalist regime permits torture, accountability and sectarian disharmony as state policy and governance principle. 16. Fundamentalist rule thrives on fabricated anti state conspiracies.

17. Fundamentalist regimes keep looking for super human characters: a character in a Brecht play says, “unfortunate is a people who do not breed heroes; another remarks, unfortunate is a nation which is always in need of a hero.”

18. Fundamentalist society uses secrecy and lies in place of transparent dialogue.

19. Fundamentalists rely on casuistry when faced with embarrassing facts.

20. Fundamentalists fan sectarian, racial, linguistic and cultural animosities.

21. Fundamentalists exploit cheap slogans and promote negative thinking.

22. Fundamentalist governments soon get packed with sycophants and mountebanks of all varieties.

23. Fundamentalists adopt isolationist policies instead of joining the world community.

24. Fundamentalist regimes are a threat to regional and international peace.

I am amazed. When two sports-people cannot be same (trying again to make it easy to grasp, as Guru used sports metaphor), how two revelations can be same.
Second, if Nirvana could be achieved just by aha moments, why Gautama have to go through years of annealing process, leaving comfort of palace and family life. Does anyone think Gautama would gain Nirvana if he has not endured all the sufferings of his quest; if he was not a SEEKER like so few? So did it happened in other traditions. If Mohammad's heart was not in agony, seeking truth and lamenting on the conditions of humans, and contemplating deeply, would he receive revelation? Yes, aha moments can give you some highs - but the depth and texture of experience vary in proportion to what you are seeking. Some even seek spiritual gratification. What they will get? Seeking to the level of self's total annihilation is the level where you may hope to have Absolute Reality revealed to you.
I did not talk about applied Marxism. People apply things in all perverted ways. That is the tragedy of humankind - until they grow out of their teens and learn what these teachers meant. Now, going back to your initial comments, if people will apply yours thought of 'get rid of …' by killing all adherent of this or that tradition, what will be the Karma sir! There are no simple answers in this life Guru ji, and you seem to be doing exactly that: Simplification. Why are you in a hurry?

Viqarm, Yes, it is the key point or one of the key points - but only so much can be said:

Here is one from Elizabeth Browning; what she must have felt is what I feel (using your words)

“Earth’s crammed with heaven
And every common bush afire with God
And only he who sees takes off his shoes
The rest sit around it and pluck blackberries”

"First, we do not get similar revelations. "

Expression might be different, but it's the perfect one for the one who is experiencing it. One does not need to be Sachin Tendulkar to experience the revealation.

Finally what is this revealation? Why one should judge and compare it with some one elses? Even series of small Ahha moments is equivalent to big bang of flash. Buddha finally came to this conclusion. He preached the middle way. For most of us this middle way with series of Ahaa moments is continuous revealtion. Many Indian saints preach the same.

Applied Marxism is totalitarian regime, it needs Mao's (De)Cultural Revolution and Stalin's Purges. What origiated from Mid-East mind is very brittle for even little opposition. But the trail of Karma it leaves is so horrendous that even after the death of these idealogies humanity suffers for long time before the pot is completely cleaned.

"First, we do not get similar revelations".

Now that's a profound statement, that! I suppose Syed Mohammad Jafri must have felt exactly like me when said in one of his poems that what an ordinary mortal sees in "abstract art" is way diferent from what an art connoisseur does:

"naQsh-e mehboob musavvir ne sajaa rakkHa tHa
mujh se poochHo tau tipaa'i pe gHaRa rakkHa tHa
ye samajhne ko ke ye art ki kya manzil hae?
aik naQQad se poochHa jo baRa Qaabil hae
uss ko naQQad tau ek chashma-e hayvaaN samjha
aur maeN usay hazrat-e majnooN ka girebaaN samjha
mujh se keHta tHa lakeeroN meiN bhi ranaa'i hae
maeN ye keHta tHa ke naaQis meri beenaa'i hae"

wallah a'lam bis sawab.

A couple of more points:
First, we do not get similar revelations. Big misunderstanding! Every sports-person is different. Every one gets a different ecstasy. Everyone plays it differently and get different gratification. Every one is not Tiger Wood or Billy Hamilton. And neither everyone have same league of fans for their prowess.
You learn from all but you get ecstatic only about some - or one.
Second, whether someone is drinking from a stream or peeing in it are not the same.

... because I AM BLESSED that way

... because I AM BLESSED that way

Blessed be all these different streams of spirituality. Every one drinks from its own stream. Problem only arises when people start saying mine is the only stream worth drinking.
Cleansing is the first step. You have to be clean enough to drink from these refreshing springs. Most of all it is the 'ego' / persona which comes in the way. You can cleanse yourself in many ways. Everyone finds through the help of different sources or graced to find on their own, their own unique way of cleansing. I have no problem with that.
Every, yes I said every, scripture can be interpreted to justify many things producing discord. But that is not the essence. Essence is to understand how it originated, what is its core. Nay, you want to experience it, at least in part – get a glimpse of it if you can - to get some sense. If you are able to (not just read - for God's sake - experience as you experience the design of VLSI or soccer) YOU WILL BE EMPOWERED - not enslaved.
But who can verbalize an experience which is beyond words. Words can go only so far.
For comment on Marxism, sorry Guru, the basic tenet of Marxism was 'CHANGE'. Marx never claimed finality. He said life will overgrow any theory - even his own.
Viqram: Why be Muslim? To speak for myself - because I AM BLESSED. Elsewhere I have said, I drink from my stream and care not what others drink. Life is too short and I say ALHAMDO LILLAHE RABIL'ALAMIN and I feel ecstastic. Where else I need to go? I am drunk with .... In this short life I am blessed that way. In another life I don't know what will be the WILL of my BELOVED.

The difference in Dahrmic utterances of Buddha's, Jaina's and any Hindu sages or avatars such as Krishna and the words in the books of religions originated in Mid_East which includes Marxiism is that they do not claim finality and absolute obedience to them. They empower the reader not enslave the reader. You are probably saying the same by "going beyond words."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmiki
The first poem came out when the pure mind experienced the pain. Because of this acident in Sanskrit, all poems are called shloka. Please not so accurate but useful birth story of first poem here http://www.indiayogi.com/content/indiangurus/poet-saint-valmiki.asp

Just as was Koran was revealed to some one, if our mind gets cleaned while playing our role we will get simialr revealation. Second hand revealed words can be poison if the mind is not evolved. That is why I would focus first cleansing the mind. For most of us physical activity and imersing in our duty such as Software or VLSi design, sports and enjoying family gathering can be such mind cleansing activity. For Valmiki Rama Nama worked. Rama is not important but Nam, ie Naa M, No I-ness is important.

"...and you may see that tt lies in the flower which Buddha lifted and said nothing and it also lies in the Bible and Quran and Gita and Garanth where it over-flew with words - there are thousand ways but all leads to one truth - but humankind is still in teens and knows not what the elders were trying to say ... "

In that case, it doesn't much matter what belief system one adheres to. Why be a muslim, and read the Qur'an? If TRUTH is attainable through, say the Bible, wouldn't it be far more advantageous - both economically as well as politically - to be a Christian instead. Unless, that is, there is some perverse pleasure in being kicked around and loathed by every Tom, Dick and Harry on the face of the planet.

First, you cannot get rid of anything. These are again words - and if there were followers to this thought - let us say it was in scripture - the followers may say "let's get rid of it by killing 'them' all". So you end up with same quandary - no matter what you do.
See the problem? - the problem with language - language humankind is cursed with. So what is the way out - consider words as pointer and try to see beyond the words. Once you learn to do that - the next step in humankind's evolution - you will understand where the truth lies - and you may see that tt lies in the flower which Buddha lifted and said nothing and it also lies in the Bible and Quran and Gita and Garanth where it over-flew with words - there are thousand ways but all leads to one truth - but humankind is still in teens and knows not what the elders were trying to say ...

"Every religion has made farce out of the TRUTH. But that does not take anything away from the TRUTH. The other day Karen Armstrong was saying like everything else there is religion and there is bad relegion. Everyone sees what its heart is open to or able to see. A soul is a mirror to itself. You can see the unsurpassed beauty in a spider or in a bee or you can be disgusted by it. All depends. So here we go."

By just talking and writing about the truth fo the sake of writing and talking makes it blurred. It's like uncertainty principle. If you try to measure by your gross sensors such as words you alter what it is. That is why throw away words.

In case religions who try to spread themselves by first distinguishing themselves, creating us vs them, creating otherness, enslaving people at other places and even future times, the word, the word in the book is a weapon, a drug and devoid of spirituality. These are re-legions. Armed legions!

The point I was making was this. When the mind is purified by a vigorous basketball game, by solving math problem or designing a VLSI chip will get inspirational thoughts, thoughts of common good. One does not need second hand thoughts from a book or even a movie.

The books like bible and Koran have done so much evil, that its high time that we get rid of them. These books have become living entity like a ghost which is sucking blood of faithfuls and non-faithfuls.

Did I not say that it will be hard for many to understand this. It did not take long for the proof to show up.
Every religion has made farce out of the TRUTH. But that does not take anything away from the TRUTH. The other day Karen Armstrong was saying like everything else there is religion and there is bad relegion. Everyone sees what its heart is open to or able to see. A soul is a mirror to itself. You can see the unsurpassed beauty in a spider or in a bee or you can be disgusted by it. All depends. So here we go.

Soccer field is more divine place than the so called house of Allah/God and his book.

"The boy looked at the basket and for the first time realized that the basket was different. It had been transformed from a dirty old coal basket and was now clean, inside and out."

The same thing will happen to the boy's mind when he completes 5 mile run or 6000 ft climb. If he gets runner's high he could cleans his mind mometarily completely.

When faith is in something outside then it is like one has lost the key in the kitchen where there is hardly any light but insists to search it under the street light just because there is light. Word based faith has taken humanity on ride of explotation, rape, plunder and genocide.

Soccer field is more divine place than the so called house of Allah/God.

It is hard for many to understand all this. The reason being that most think of Quran only as a book. In reality it is more than a book. It is living energy. It interacts with you. The following paragraph from Kabir Helminski's book "Knowing Heart" is a pertinent quote where he cites Rumi's take on Quran: (It is going to give a jolt to some - be big hearted and open-minded)
"To approach the Quran requires that we prepare ourselves to be receptive to it. It requires that we get in touch with deeper dimensions of our own being. Maulan Rumi has this to say about approaching the Quran:
The Quran is like a shy bride. Although you pull aside her veil, she will not show her face. The reason you have no pleasure or discovery in all your study of it is that it rejects your attempt to pull off its veil. It tricks you and shows itself to you as ugly, as it to say, "I am not that beauty." It is capable of showing any face it wants. If, on the other hand, you do not tug at the veil, but you acquiesce, give water to its sown field do it service from afar and try to do what pleases it without pulling at its veil, it will show you its face.
"Seek the people of God, enter among my servants; and enter my paradise" (Quran 89 : 29 -30)
God does not speak to just anyone, as kings in this world do not speak to every weaver. They appoint viziers and deputies through whom people can reach them. So also has God selected a certain servant to the end that whoever seeks God can find Him through that servant. All the prophets have come for the sol reason that they are the WAY. ...
"Thus, step by step, We bestow from on high through this Quran all that gives health [to the spirit] and is a frace to those have faith ....:(Quran 17: 83)