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Islam is for all universe for all times. yes? no?

Posted: Oct 9, 2009 Fri 05:48 am     Views: 470    Interacts: 66

Most Muslims believe that Islam has a universal message for all times. The veracity of this statement depends on what one thinks is the message of Islam.
In my earlier blog, I had argued that religions are defined by the language in which they are prescribed. No religion is born in a cultural vacuum. Islam was born in 7th century Arabia and it has DISTINCT features that reflect the reforms needed at the time. For example, rather than abolish slavery, Islam encourages better treatment and freeing slaves as atonement of sin (hoping in time this will abolish slavery). This does not mean Islam agrees with slavery, but the structure of the society in 7th century Arabia demanded a gradual and systematic abolition of slavery rather than an abrupt one. One can choose to define Islam in the specific laws of Quran and specific deeds/sayings of Muhammad, or one can choose to define Islam in the general approach and the desired outcome of these laws. If one chooses to define it with the former, one should continue to acquire slaves and treat them well, sleep with one’s slave girls and treat her children as his own etc. However, if one chooses to define Islam with the latter, one has to denounce slavery in every form.
People argue that Islamic laws are for all people and for all times. Let’s look at the argument in terms of ‘all people’. I have a Native American (Red Indian) friend who once explained the concept of ‘property’ in Native American culture: there is none. There is no concept of possessing land, property or wives in this culture. Owning a piece of land is just as foreign to them as owning an area of ‘air’ is for us. So if these people were to convert to Islam, should they start possessing their tents and dividing it in halves and thirds to give to their children? Absolutely NOT. So does that mean Islam does not have a prescription for all people…absolutely NOT, as well. It depends on how you define the law. The concept behind the law of dividing property is to be fair and just in the social dealings. It is not the thirds and five-sevenths that is the issue, but what it represents.
Now let’s look at the argument for ‘all times’. There are specific definitions (depending on the fiqh) of state of travel. It is important to know if you are ‘travelling’ or not b/c it affects your prayers and fasts. In U.S today people commute on everyday basis to distances farther than any/every fiqh’s ruling as the distance required for state of ‘travel’. In today’s world, these commuters can never fast or pray their full prayers! If you take specific laws as definition of Islam…you will find it neither applies to all people, nor for all time.
The underlining goal of all these laws, however, will apply to all people and all times.
Most people will say ‘monotheism’ is at the core of Islam and it is its main message. Fair enough. However if you look at the history of Islam there is something more fundamental than monotheism. I am convinced that monotheism is the means to the end and not the end itself. If one achieves the end without the specific means, one can still die a Muslim, in theory.
A side note here is that Ali wanted to compile a chronologically assembled Quran. It did not happen. Too bad, for it had solved a lot of ambiguity in the context of many revelations of Quran since we’d know the precise time in history each revelation was descended on Muhammad and therefore the true message of that revelation.
All the (chronologically) earlier revelations before Surah Ikhlas (which proclaims monotheistic nature of God and for the first time gives Him an appellation of “Allah”), were targeted towards social reform. These surahs show disgust on social practices such as hoarding of wealth, not caring for the weak in the society, not being neighborly and not promoting social harmony through acts of kindness. It is interesting to know that in those days some other folks were showing the same concerns over the increase in the distance between the rich and poor of the society and lack of tribal support to the weak of the society specially widows and orphans. Maybe the main message of Islam, then, is ‘social justice’. The way this goal was achieved in 7th century Arabia was to create a tribe based on ideology and not blood relations…a tribe where social justice would rule and a tribe that will defend ALL its members weak or powerful. That ideology on which this tribe (Ummah) would be based, was monotheism and prophethood of Muhammad.

In today’s world, there is no tribe and no protection based on the membership to that tribe. The political scene has changed. Western concept of ‘nationality’ is imposed on the world. Neither subcontinent, nor Middle East fits in this formula of western nationality. However, the true message of Islam (social justice) can be achieved under all political and economical models. This message of Islam is for all people and all times. Islam does not condemn Democracy, Theocracy or Oligopoly. It does not favor Capitalism, Socialism or Communism. It only wants to achieve the goal of social justice and basic human rights for all. Those who are clinging to the 7th century laws of Islam and claiming them for all people , all times…are also living in 7th century Arabia all of them, all of the time!


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Latest comments
Posted by bhs75 on Monday October 12, 2009 10:13 pm
rhusain sb. the religion is already flexible, it's the ones who follows it needs to understand it's meaning properly.

Don't blame the religion, fix yourself.
Posted by meenug on Sunday October 11, 2009 01:15 am
###Islam does not condemn Democracy####


Arab Human Development Report (AHDR 2003), produced by a group of Arab specialists for the United Nations Development Programme.......


The current report highlights the difficulties in producing a "knowledge society" in Arab countries and mentions in a GAURDED WAY the role of Islam in the Arab world's social, political, and economic difficulties.....


The report conveys some alarming statistics. In Arab countries, the quality of higher education is declining and enrollment is down. Public spending on education has declined since 1985. Expenditure on research and development is a tiny 0.2 percent of GNP, and there is a "political and social context inimical to the development of science." The number of scientists and engineers per capita is a third of the world average. The number of computers per capita is a quarter of the global average. The number of newspapers published per capita is a fifth of that of developed countries, and the little news that is disseminated is controlled and restricted. The few books that are published are censored, and the proportion of religious books produced is three times the world average. The number of books translated into Spanish each year is one thousand times the number translated into Arabic.

On the subject of religion, the authors suggest that oppressive regimes and conservative religious scholars have colluded to produce "certain interpretations of Islam" that represent "serious impediments to human development, particularly when it comes to freedom of thought, accountability of the ruling authorities, and women's participation in public life." Blaming tyrants and extremists may be a convenient option; unfortunately, the problem runs much deeper than that, as the authors may realize.

Islam, rather than knowledge, is currently fervently held to be the "organizing principle" in all the aspects of human activity mentioned. Implicit but unstated in this aspiration is the need, at least in part, to replace Islam with knowledge. The authors are no doubt unwilling or unable to state such a message explicitly for fear of adopting a position that may be said to be "anti-Islam."

Here lies the problem. Inherent in the quest for knowledge, in the scientific method itself, is the expression of doubt. But in Islam doubt is forbidden.

The report identified "three deficits" compared with other regions: deficits in freedom, women's empowerment, and knowledge. Female illiteracy is high; female labor-force participation is by far the lowest in the world. On a recent World Values Survey, Arabs expressed the lowest preference of any group for gender equality in employment. Thus losing the productive potential of half of the population levies enormous social as well as economic costs.
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 01:07 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRbxymXVdp0&feature=related
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 01:06 pm
#####Muhammad himself never hurt anyone who threw slanders at him.#####


You need to know more than this.....

It seems like one more methane discharge from you,,,,


Sahih hadith from the Sunan of Abu Dawud, wherein Muhammad didn't punish a man who had murdered a woman who used to criticize him!!!

She didn't attack him, she only used to criticize him!

She was a mom of two little sons!

Sunan of Abu Dawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Please google this hadith if you disbelieve me! Why was this poor woman's murderer not punished by Muhammad?

If this is his conduct, how is he any man of peace??

Leave killing jews and other humans, here he is doing the following:


Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4326:
'Abdullah b. Umar reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) burnt the date-palms of Banu Nadir.

Finally watch this video and yr judgement on Pro Mo would fall like nine pins.......
Posted by rhusain on Saturday October 10, 2009 08:36 am
ambibambi: One doesn't have to reinterpret monotheism...there are MANY religions (including to some point, hinduism) which are monotheist..so that doesn't make Islam unique. I propose, that a set of 'aqaaid' can be SUGGESTED for muslims, but neither prescribed nor mandated. Re-interpretation is needed, not in 'beliefs or aqaaid' but in 'actions' that are supposedly based on these 'beliefs'. for example, now that muslims are not under threat, killing even non-muslims (let alone muslims) should not be allowed under any circumstances other than direct mortal physical attack etc.
As far as 'outrage' over insults to Islam is concerned, it is outrageous! Muhammad himself never hurt anyone who threw slanders at him. He never allowed people to bow/kiss or otherwise put him on a pedestal. if others 'insult' him, you can discontinue business with them as a sign of protest, but you can not kill them or hurt them etc.
Posted by mothsmoke on Saturday October 10, 2009 06:34 am
Sir you are a genius. I am sure you can spell ISLAM backwards as well :)
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 05:25 am
@rhusain:

Some gems from Quran and Ahdeeth......


Tabari IX:69 "Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."


Tabari VIII:141 "The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'"


Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."


Ishaq:489 "Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."


Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."


Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."


Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"


Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."
Tabari VII:97


Ishaq:368 "We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"


Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"


Ishaq:369 "Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."


Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

No wonder muslims are leaving islam silently after finding islam´s gruesome nature and jehadic atrocities on infidels!
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 05:18 am
###you are turning meanug!###

Pro Mo must be, in his grave, after finding how his name got implicated with number of malfeasant cases as a last prophet.....a slave merchant he was, you know he kept slaves (Bilal) how can a prophet, sent by holly god, keep slaves, he has set nice precedent for saudis for whom pakistani folks are slaves as second rate residents.....

Tell me why there are no rallies in Muslim world-ummah against violators of Quran after knowing that these GCC shaikhs are violating Qranic injunction and getting married with hundreds of women? whereas you people raise a hue n cry (public clamour) for just couple of cartoons???
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 05:08 am
###As long as you discuss what is being said - I am fine. But when you start discussing who is saying it and start commenting on that person instead of on the topic - then you are lowering yourself.###

Aha....what is Islam without its central figure Pro mo....the founder of Islam....and if I say he is a killer of jews....you run away......The conclusion is that the founder of Islam, who was also a last prophet, was a killer.....and you being a muslim rever this man......this means you will kill many non muslims (like other muslims are) because as a muslim you have to follow sunnah......what is wrong here...Its a direct answer without any analogy being involved........Do you know how many mullahs n moulivis are running away silently from Islam? Yes I did not say general folks....mullahs n moulivies.....once people know how gruesome this religion is.....they will run in droves....
Posted by rhusain on Saturday October 10, 2009 04:37 am
meenug...you are turning meanug!
Posted by AmbiBambi on Saturday October 10, 2009 02:48 am
meenug - one thing I have learnt from life -
There is no point dicussing and debating with people who turn a discussion about an idea and topic into a discussion about personalities. As long as you discuss what is being said - I am fine. But when you start discussing who is saying it and start commenting on that person instead of on the topic - then you are lowering yourself.

I dont wish to lower myself:)
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 12:10 am
###These are extremists views..and not a common belief. ###


But they are part n parcel of quran - word of god!

In a first place why should a holly scripture like quran even talk about demeaning non muslims as kafers, apes, and pigs? No god would do that, but Allah has done that, and muhammed practiced this......name calling apart....He killed 600 jews.....and you call such a man prophet? he can not be a candidate for a prophethood LOL
Posted by meenug on Saturday October 10, 2009 12:02 am
##your knowledge needs to be more wide spread than only MEMRI TV - whatever that is. You need to read books, browse the internet, read articles etc., and interact with other Muslims in real life.##

What makes you think I dont (I mean on above)...

The same thing (above) applies to you too......but I never aksed you such a silly version, knowing that you have basic common sense.....but it seems like you dont, or, if you do, you are good at digressing like other muslims......

Here I gave you the answer to your specific question backed with other stuff........and here you are with above lousy stuff.....just to digress....because you dont know where to go from here (my answer)........all muslims are same......brain washed merdersa educated when it comes to allah......and quran

Tell me if god is one
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 11:19 pm
@ manazy -one of the sad things of our time is that we have split education into worldly and religious. SO a religious guy doesnt know anything about the workings of Gods good earth/universe and everything in it. On the other hand, we assume people with only worldly education to have no religious knowledge. This is NOT the way it should be.

Everyone should have knowledge enough to make her/his own religious decisions - no matter whether they are doctors, engineers, farmers, whatever.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 04:51 pm
khurram:
Yes, social justice can be achieved in many ways under all models. America is Capitalist but it has social programs...you may call those 'socialist', but America would still be considered a Capitalistic country. The point is extremism in any model would de-stabilize it anyway. If rich want to stay rich and enjoy a good life, they have to do enough for the poor so they don't turn criminals and hobos and litter their streets...hope you got my point.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 04:47 pm
khurram:
Social Justice is what/how you define it in this era. For 7th century Arabia, it was enough for Muhammad to have the widows/orphans 'miskeens', property-less and travelers (to a tribal territory) to have equal protection (against ghazwa, against usurped property etc.) similar to the protection other more powerful members of society had. Also that they were all fed and taken care of by the society (neighbors etc.) and have equal access to justice from tribal chief if they feel they have been wronged. This is why, for example, he asked all widows to be married (so they have a man's protection in 7th century arabia) Now-a-days a woman doesn't need a man's protection (is protected by law of the land) and doesnot HAVE to marry if she chooses so.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 04:41 pm
manazy: 'hifz' is not a qualification. Aalim is the one who acquires ilm. I have spent good part of my life reading books on every religion and yes majority of them were Islamic because they were the most available to me. Islamic Fiqh, history, biographies, philosophies, sufiism/poetry both by Islamic sources and non-Islamic sources. I know Arabic but I am not a scholar by any stretch of imagination..
Posted by khurram on Friday October 9, 2009 03:21 pm
What is social justice?
Is it defined by Islam?
Is it really achievable under all politcal and economic models?
Posted by manazy on Friday October 9, 2009 01:27 pm
i have one qs. are you a student of the quran... meaning teacher student and the quran learing it in every aspect.... and
i mean EVERY ASPECT.
what are your qualifications in this subject?
degree
diploma..... Aalim, hifz?

so judgement here
just a qs
so i understand where ur comin from


Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 12:28 pm
ambibambi: kya karen? ...'pighal kar maum ho jaata agar pathar ko samjhate'...
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 12:19 pm
meenug: you don't have to provide proofs of such statements. These are extremists views..and not a common belief. The aayats you quote are pointing to specific groups..which are part of many such stories in Torah where Yahweh (Allah, God etc.) inflicts many strange punishments to groups of people for various acts of disobedience. It doesn't apply to all Jews for all times.
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 12:15 pm
meenug - i have no problems with the followers of any organised religion or somebody who chooses to be a naturalist/humanist/atheist/antognist.

I do however believe that in order to have a healthy debate - your knowledge needs to be more wide spread than only MEMRI TV - whatever that is. You need to read books, browse the internet, read articles etc., and interact with other Muslims in real life.

As I said earlier - have you ever met a Muslim who believed in everything that you say Islam is?
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 12:00 pm
#####for all the research you have done on Islam I am amazed that you don't know that it was Allah who sent Torah and Bible, just the same way he sent Quran?########


So why is same Allah depising jews as apes and pigs as per Quran in three different verses: 7:166, 2:65, and 5:60.????

MEMRI TV provides a translated video clip and a transcript of an Egyptian cleric singing about Allah's punishment of the "apes and pigs" in the Last Day.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/670.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip_tr anscript/en/670.htm

Islam: Jews Are the Offspring of Apes and Pigs
Watch this video on youtube.com

Muslim children taught Jews are apes and Christians are pigs.

markazislam.com

A young child at the age of only 3 completely brainwashed.

Listen and watch her as she speaks against jews....

Youtube courtesy memri TV.....

And the list goes on n on
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:44 am
@@@@@@@@@ just wondering - do you follow any religion? or are you an antognist or atheist or naturalist? WOuld be interested to know where u r coming from..@@@@@@@@@@


Religion is man made....A human being does not need it to survive....there are plenty agnostic-athiest people around who dont slit the throat of people chanting allah u akber.....My religion is humanity.
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:40 am
@@@@@@@until we don't get rid of 72virgins, we will continue to create more meenugs!@@@@@@@@@@@


Good shot RH ;) but I am unscathed....

To get rid of such a promise for wanna be mujhaids and jehadis, Islam would collapse.......and you know what? words of god-allah are immutable......so more jehadis and more kafer killers, more murders and meyhem, allah knoweth better...
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:35 am
@@@@@@@that is exactly what I am debating in it that not everything in Quran is for all people all time.@@@@@@@@@@


And your scholars-muftis are saying that everything in Quran is for all times, quran is for ever for every muslim.......go and prove your own wroong LoL

If quran was only for 7th century why follow it (as a complete book) now ?

Why Quranic god is saying muslim women can not marry kafers? ......did not kafers come by god also? so why this mish mash by Allah and quran?

QED
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 11:35 am
eyesort - eyesore
sorry its hard to type with two toddlers tryng to climb on you
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 11:34 am
and please - limit your use of @@@s. THey are an eyesort on the screen if used without consideration!
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:32 am
meenug: for all the research you have done on Islam I am amazed that you don't know that it was Allah who sent Torah and Bible, just the same way he sent Quran? But please no coffee no candy today..promise??
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:27 am
meenug is probably a good person, having a bad day :) maybe has read too much from the 72virgins.com and that's the only view he has of Islam. until we don't get rid of 72virgins, we will continue to create more meenugs!
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:26 am
@@@@@@@Quran boasts to be the 'continuation of Torah/Bible' and cut/pastes@@@@@@@


Any wich way, they can not be words of Allah then as delivered via phoney gibreal.....LoL

The more u engage with me the more u look like to be in the spider web....where u have no escape....U can keep on changing your wordings after wordings, but the jurry is out.....So dont worry, all muslims have to lie, to save thier unholly pro mo, whose character is very questionable aswell as tainted as portrayed by hadeeths and sunnah....
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 11:25 am
@meenug - just wondering - do you follow any religion? or are you an antognist or atheist or naturalist? WOuld be interested to know where u r coming from...
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:21 am
I am questioning your reading my iLog because that is exactly what I am debating in it that not everything in Quran is for all people all time....boy you are strung tight!
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:18 am
@@@@@did you read my iLog@@@@@@


What makes you think I did not ? This question would have been appropriate from yr end in the begining - but it seems like u r looking for a face saving abrupt exit.....

And you have audacity to have asked this question when you have already locked horns with me?.........You wanna face saving exit? You got one - I set u free....LOL
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:16 am
meenug: calm down! Quran boasts to be the 'continuation of Torah/Bible' and cut/pastes the part that are unadulterated. Revises those it thinks need revising, otherwise Quran may be read as the 'final chapeter' of Torah..new testament..Quran. Why must you be so excited and 'gotcha!' at everything?
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:13 am
Alfbay: here is an example of what i was talking about in meenug :):)
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:12 am
And here let me put the facts straight with the following WITH YOUR OWN WORDINGS:

#163 Posted by rhusain on October 9, 2009 6:16:19 am
Re: # 161
BTW, Islam does not deny the fact that it is cut/paste from bible/torah..it boasts it!

YOU´R AGREEING above ISLAM-QURAN IS A plagiarized STUFF FROM TORAH AND BIBLE.....

QED
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 11:10 am
meenug: did you read my iLog or you are just commenting as soon as you saw the name Islam in the title??
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 11:04 am
@@@@@@During its survival period it was VERY important to distance Muslims from the "Kafirs" of Mecca because they wanted to wipe out the new idea of building a tribe on the basis of ideology. These lines are NOT for all people all times...they are for 7th century Arabia.@@@@@@@@@@


Hmmmm

I am told Quran is universal and for ETERNITY coupled with hadith and sunnah by yr scholars...ARE THEY NOT?

So why fiegn and say it was for that given time during 7th century......Quran is perpetual and immutable as per your scholars, right?
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 10:54 am
@RH: @@@Also for a more 'secular' view, read 'Muhammad' by Karen Armstrong, I am sure you will calm down. @@@

Hahaha Karen Armstrong: Islam's Hagiographer And Apologist Extraordinaire......

In the aftermath of 9/11 millions rushed to find out more about the religion 'Islam' and many found Karen Armstrong's books waiting in bookshops. Karen Armstrong is however an extremely biased Islamic apologist whose books have been given by the Hamas affiliated Saudi sponsored CAIR group free to libraries around the US.

Armstrong's books are so dishonest that it is shameful that such blatent apologia can pass as scholarship.

According to Armstrong, Mohammed was, above all, a "peacemaker" who "respected" Jews and other non-Muslims. Yet nowhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah does Mohammed refer to non-Muslims as in any way deserving of respect as equals. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Apparently, we are to ignore 1400 years of Islamic history contradicting Armstrong's view, and to ignore the contents of the Qur'an and the explicitly anti-Semitic 'revelations' of Islam's founder.

Has Armstrong not read Ibn Ishaq's quasi-sacred biography of Mohammed? Has she not read the Hadiths? Does she not know of the massacre of the Banu Qurayza and the opportunist raids against the Bani Quainuqa, Bani Nadir and Bani Isra'il and other Jewish tribes?

Does she not know how these events were justified as a divine duty, one which formed the theological basis of the Great Jihad of Abu Bakr, setting in motion one of the most formidable military expansions in Islamic history?


Does she not know how these theological ideas established Jews and Christians' subordinate legal status throughout much of the Islamic world for hundreds of years?

If Armstrong does not know of such things, in what sense can she be considered a "respected scholar" of this subject? For what, exactly, is she respected?

Either way, Islam's foremost hagiographer and shill has found an audience among Muslims and those on the left with little appetite for unflattering facts and a preference for being told whatever they wish to hear.

Secular karen? my foot!
Saudi puppet, now a millionair.....
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:54 am
agree with you there! critical and objective..after all it may be a human weakness to want power, it doesn't make one evil..but power hungry folks cannot be made uncontended religious heroes as well.. here is something you might want to be interested in...http://www.dwfed.org/home.html
Not that it is a panacea but it is good to know that some people are trying something to avoid wars.
Posted by Taji on Friday October 9, 2009 10:49 am
I think critical examination of Islamic history is absolutely necessary and simply doing that would free us from a lot of baggage.
However, despite being a person who abhors wars, I think realistically a society should be ready to handle armed conflicts at all time. While many wars are religions, even more are about resources. Violence is quite embedded in the nature of mankind and war is one of the large scale manifestation. What is essential is to have checks and balances to curtail the prospects of war/violence as much as possible. Most of the modern day initiatives e.g. Peace treaties etc try to do just that.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:48 am
skeptical:
I was just commenting, not accusing you of anything :). As far as re-interpreting one-ness of God, or God Himself...it should be a private matter. remember that the "kalima" was get the membership of the tribe primarily for protection in 7th century Arabia. The reason I am emphasizing on staying away from the interpretation on the nature of God, is because then people who go on mazaars and darbaars will be labeled polytheists because they ask from someone other than God. As long as people say the Kalima...give them the membership, leave judgement to God. That is what Prophet said himself.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:42 am
taji: you just paraphrased Howard Zinn with "Most things are taken as absolute truth and any research done is with the aim of corroborating the already held beliefs" :)
Posted by Skeptical on Friday October 9, 2009 10:37 am
rhussaini

I never disagreed on your 7th century islam not for all times thesis.

ambibami, i am not saying that one should reintrepret oneness of God. However, reintrepretation in essential to make religon compatible with modern times.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:37 am
Taji: one has to admit one's mistakes before one moves on. world has not been a peaceful place is true and I also agree on practicality and pacifism, but Muslims have never 'tried' to be peaceful either. I gave example of Muhammad's entire family slayed soon after his death, for a reason. Not to mention murder of Umar, Usman and Ali...that is not a coincidence. Power was the player from day#1. I agree that these things don't matter now and every nation has made wars and conquered territories..but making heroes out of rogue figures makes you want to follow their footsetps in the future!
Progressive Islam is possible when we first denounce all violence, present and past. Create atmosphere of just societies and of learning and education. No forcing of ones' ideas in terms of personal beliefs and rituals. No judging of actions and sending people to hell or heaven or calling them heathens or ahmadis or kafirs etc.
Posted by Taji on Friday October 9, 2009 10:25 am
rhusain, Muslims have not practiced peace because world has not been a very peaceful place. At any given time in history, several conflicts have been ongoing in various parts of the world. Moreover religions that brings out a whole way of life can not be entirely pacifist because they do need space to establish their domains, and frankly totally pacifist societies can not survive in this world.
Practically we can try to concentrate on the present and try to find ways to make Islam a progressive movement.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:19 am
ambibambi: what I mean is that Muslims have not practiced peace since the death of Muhammad up until now...Since I believe Islam does preach peace, how come Muslims have NEVER felt the need to exercise it?
Posted by Taji on Friday October 9, 2009 10:17 am
One of the problem with evolution of Islamic thought relates to the method of teaching. Christianity today is taught (usually termed as Divinity) in Universities with similar kind of modern methodology as used in other subjects, people do quality research papers in critical topics. More importantly, the students can also opt to study other subjects and other religions in addition to their divinity courses. In Islamic countries (though I can talk about Pakistan only)the teaching of Islamic studies even at the University level is highly static. There is no concept of intellectual inquiry of skepticism of established ideas. Most things are taken as absolute truth and any research done is with the aim of corroborating the already held beliefs. Consequently even after doing PhD in Islamic studies, one is handicapped in bringing new ideas or thoughts.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:17 am
skeptical:
first we need to make sure people don't insist on 'all people all time' rhetoric...then they should agree on the basic principals of Islamic laws and not exact methods of 7th century Arabia. Religion aught to be a private matter. If one believes in God, how can one judge who is more dear to God?, isn't that playing God by definition?
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 10:13 am
@rhusain - i am sorry I dont understand what our current discuson has to do with your last post. Am I singing praises of bani-umayyah?

Anyway I am going to drink tea and watch TV - true Friday night laziness!

Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 10:11 am
Skeptical - reinterpretation / ijtihad is essential - but one cannot reinterpret the concept of monotheism. I really have to say that if you reinterpret monotheism in Islam, you may as well create a new religion and follow it.

Ijtihad can only be useful if everyone has the power to do it, not the select few mullahs who misuse their power by manipulating people.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:10 am
ambibambi:
After Muhammad had conquered Mecca, he sent letters of invitation to nearby tribes/states to join his 'tribe'. He did not send any army to confront them (he could have because his army was pumped up at that time). In fact when some of the tribes refused the invitation and Khalid bin Walid slayed them, Muhammad sent Ali with "Qasas" and apology because it was not his intention to forcefully add states to his tribe. However history tells us that as soon as he died...there were wars and more wars...first all the tribes of Arabia then Persia then Byzantine fell to the Muslim armies. Why do you think? The judge never said to kill all women who ate apples...but hundreds of years later we still find ourselves defending the actions of those who killed all apple-eating women in the name of the judge! and then we insist that Islam is peace! It IS peace, but since Muhammad's death, has it ever been practiced. Not even his generation was dead and his own grandson and Muhammad's ENTIRE family (the one promised in surah kausar) was slayed in broad daylight! no protests? We still sing praises of bani-umayyah? I think one should be realistic here.
Posted by Skeptical on Friday October 9, 2009 10:05 am
A good i log and a touch of Irshad manji and Nadeem Farooq Paracha. i am also writing on the same subject. I think reintrepretation is essential to bring islam into conformity with modern times and also to develop a culture of independent thinking.
The need is for the reinterpretation of religion is even stronger than perhaps its separation from state.

Now why do I think that this reinterpretation of religion is more important than its separation from state (that does not take away the necessity that separation has to be done). In my opinion, the religion derives most of its importance in society not from the state but from a particular mindset which has developed due to two slightly distinct but interlinked factors: the importance of religion in our lives; and the way it is promoted and interpreted by the clergy. With out tackling the second issue, any effort to de link religon from state would not be effective
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 10:00 am
unfortunately no...not every ayat has a confirmed 'shaan-e-nuzool'. Some big ones do.
Quran is easy to understand ... is a metaphor...the message it has is common sense now and easy to understand. As far as language/syntax is concerned it is obviously getting harder and harder to understand as Arabic has deviated from 7th century dialect and also because majority of Muslims are not Arabs.
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 09:59 am
rhusain - yes agree with your point - there should be a global mutual edict by all Muslim scholars on the basis of ijtihad that suicide bombing is wrong. There have been some such edicts by fragemented groups of scholars, but we need one loud and clear widely publicised edict stating suicide bombing is wrong so that misguided people with little knowledge of Islam do not carry out such horrendous attacks in the name of Islam.

I maintain - Islam is a religion of peace, peace, and peace.
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 09:55 am
Menug - In addition, the Old and New Testaments were originally in Latin, yet they have been translated to English and people follow them. So why not the Quran in Arabic - with translations available?

THe Bhagavad Gita uses very specific dialect - still people follow it. Why?

Menug and rhusain - the Quran is easy to remember - no other religion has people who have learnt their Holy Scriptures by heart.

Rhusain - THere may be a few things that were specific to that time - and I agree with your example about how Islam slowly eradicated slavery without outwrite banning it. However, not everything is subject to interpretation - for example - monotheism - If there is a God, and I believe there is, would HE be happy if you believed in other Gods too? Would your mom be happy if you started calling somebody else Mom too. I dont think so. IN this case, the jorurney is as important as the final results.

And by the way, the ayat Surah Al-Qamar 54 : Aayat # 17

“And we have indeed made the Quran easy to understand & remember, than is there any that will receive admonition?”

is not for the 7th century only.

It i also still possible to read the Holy Quran by following it chronologically - you learn the timing and situation/context of every ayat when you start reading its explanation.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 09:52 am
ambibambi:
with due respect, the lines meenug has pointed out are pretty lethal if taken literally...so a novice on the subject WILL take it as if either people don't read these lines or don't know what they are reading.
Also, this is the whole problem...there is no Ijtihad left in Islam or we wouldn't be having these suicide attacks. Ijtihad needs to be revived!
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 09:47 am
Please also realize that Quran is:
Not a history or story book with a beginning middle and end.
It also not a collection of laws and wise sayings.
It is not a continuous text. It reads like a haphazard collection of thoughts BECAUSE
It is a compilation of revelations on Muhammad that (according to Muslim faith) descended on him from God.
Each revelation was either a comment, information, admonition, permission or imperative etc. to whatever was happening at the time the revelation was sent. All these were compiled and put together in a book...
Without knowing the situation, the aayat makes little sense. For example if a judge in the court (based on the particular case at hand) says "Let the woman be punished because she ate the apple". You cannot quote him elsewhere as a proof that all women should be punished if they ate an apple. That is ridiculous, unfortunately a lot of people, who don't realize that, do just the same. This doesn't make the judge an evil woman-hater, all the same!
Posted by AmbiBambi on Friday October 9, 2009 09:47 am
Dear menug - Muslims do not read the Quran - really? How did you conclude that?

If you have read the Quran, do you believe the Quran teaches hate?

Have you ever met a Muslim who believed in the stuff that you have written about Islam?

The power of Islam is ijtihad - the ability to evolve with times - not the facts mind, not things like there is only one God - but daily matters. This ensure Islam is a compelte code of life for all times to come.
Posted by rhusain on Friday October 9, 2009 09:35 am
meenug:
Very impressive research! Please also go on 'reasonable' websites and find the 'context' of these Aayats. As I mentioned in my article each aayat has a context and without context it is VERY dangerous to derive meaning. This is exactly what extremists of any religion (EVERY religion) do i-e derive out-of-context meanings for their own benefits...

Also for a more 'secular' view, read 'Muhammad' by Karen Armstrong, I am sure you will calm down. She has also written a book on Buddha...

During its survival period it was VERY important to distance Muslims from the "Kafirs" of Mecca because they wanted to wipe out the new idea of building a tribe on the basis of ideology. These lines are not for all people all times...they are for 7th century Arabia.
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 09:22 am
@@@@@The teachings of Islam are universal. It is for the believers to interpret the fundamentals and apply them to contemporary situations and evolving problems.@@@@@@@

How is it universal when you need to have interpreters for such a book that came from god - it is limited only to arab speaking people....Why other religions dont have the same excuse as interpretation?

Universal my foot! Gibreal came with a phoney message in Arabic language....something that requires interpretaion, and only by beleivers LOLL

But of all, why do you need this pretext of interpretation when your Allah says the folllowing in this:

ALLAH says in Surah Al-Qamar 54 : Aayat # 17

“And we have indeed made the Quran easy to understand & remember, than is there any that will receive admonition?”

Either Quran is wrong - or you are......tell me who is!
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 09:14 am
@Akbarhussain:

@@@@Is it necessary to show your state of mind and sheer ignorance about something on a public forum?@@@@


Ignorance? what ignorance?

Everything that has been said is backed by YOUR scripture like Quran/ahdeeth/sunnah......hence the ignorance from your end who relies on mullahs and moulivies.......Read your own stuff by yourself with open mind and see how deadly this deadly combo is.....


A report published in Friday Times of Lahore shows:

Thanks to the intolerant teachings of Quran, like calling the non-Muslims najis (impure) and inferior, the Muslims are less likely to integrate with the people of other religions and befriend them......Unless you tell me that Pakistani newspapers are piece of shik, I would agree (as you would then) that whatever said about Quran is right.....dont take my words.....read it by yourself....english tafseer is available.....I know you dont know arabic, like many other India, Pakistan, and bangladeshi moslems.

Can you deny that the Quran is calling non muslim kafers and najis ?

Quran states: "Verily, the unbelievers are najis," (Sura 9 Verse 28).

Qur'an, further states:
"Slay the unbelievers wherever you catch them," (Sura 2 Verse 191).

"Fight them (infidels) until there is no more dissent and religion is that of Allah," (Sura 2 Verse 193).

"The vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve," (Sura 8 Verse 55).

"Let not the believers (Islamists) take for friends or helpers unbelievers," (Sura 3 Verse 28).

"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers; smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them," (Sura 8 Verse 12).

Their are ten things that are najis in Islam: 1. urine, 2. feces, 3. semen, 4.dead body, 5. blood, 6. dog, 7. pig, 8. the sweat of an animal who eats nijis things. 9. alcoholic beverages, 10. Kafir, i.e., any non Muslim.
Posted by Delirium on Friday October 9, 2009 07:39 am
The teachings of Islam are universal. It is for the believers to interpret the fundamentals and apply them to contemporary situations and evolving problems.
Posted by Akbarhussain on Friday October 9, 2009 07:16 am
#Meenug
Is it necessary to show your state of mind and sheer ignorance about something on a public forum?
Posted by meenug on Friday October 9, 2009 07:06 am
Muslims do not know that Islam calls them to kill the unbelievers. They are not aware that Quran is full of hatemongering messages. They do not read the Quran and are not aware of its contents. They believe Islamic wars were fought in self defense. They think Muhammad was a holy man. They are cocooned in lies and they believe in those lies.

Let the world know the truth about Islam and I promise you that in our own lifetime Islam will be eradicated completely. Truth is more powerful than lies just as light is stronger than darkness. Islam will not stand a chance when the truth is out. Millions of Muslims will abandon this cult in a matter of years.

I am appealing to all of you to really comprehend the root cause of this Islamic terror and find a real lasting solution for this worldwide horror of unbelievable scale so that our progeny will inherit a planet free of terror, genocide, and uncivilised and age-old customs.


Islam is a very much like an opiate, which is a drug. And it is an extremely potent one. At a low dose, it may look innocuous and benign. But in overdose, it could bring catastrophe to human civilisation as manifested on the events of September 11 at WTC and Pentagon. You see, this drug is administered to the children when they are at very tender age. The shooting galleries for this terrible drug are the ubiquitous mosques and madrassas in the Islamic countries. Most addicts of this drug never escaper from its tight grip. The only victims who detoxify themselves are those who, at a later part in their lives, come in contact with other philosophical ideas like secularism, freethinking, atheism, etc.


But it is not that simple for the Islamic drug addicts to free his /her mind and accept other ideas so readily which, for believers of other religions is so easy to do. The reason for this is that to release oneself from the bondage of this terrible narcotic, one must die. This is the terrible price one has to pay to get hooked on Islam and later trying to free himself/herself from its bondage.

Once you are hooked on Islam, you cease to be a human being. You turn into a zombie of some sort and the more Islam you gulp, the more is your craving for the drug. You need daily doses in terms of prayers, fasting, and going to mosques and getting more and more high on the drug.

In the case of Islamic drug, the addict does not simply kill himself/herself but kills many others along with him/her. With a proper indoctrination Islam, an overdosed addict turns into a killing machine of flesh and blood. He loses his intellect and ceases to think rationally. He has stopped becoming a caring, loving, sympathetic, tolerant human being. His penchant for more and more of this drug becomes insatiable until the time when the overdose kills him and others in a violent manner (suicide bomber). He turns in to a zombie killer. Nothing will stop him until he dies and gets the company of 72 most beautiful houris; has plenty of wine to drink and have sex ad infinitum. Are there any other rewards greater than this for killing innocent people in the name of Allah and Jihad (Holy war)?

rhusain

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