SAARC Syndrome: Asia's Burden

Re: # 151
Calling names reflects upon the poverty of mind. Good arguments can win hearts. Don`t believe even if your gods say that Indian army is good enough to keep millions of people under Indian yoke. Americans have not been able to take care of real terrorists in Iraq despite being many times better equipped then Indian soldiers.
Imagine, God forbid, if similar insurgency breaks out in Kashmir will Indian Army be able to handle the situation. Not at all. Only the human cost will increase and humanity will die. Pl come to senses and shake off the newly gained thrill of ``India Shining`` and look at the sproblem in true perspective.
With nuclear arsenal both India and Pakistan can never win each other, however, by acting rightly India can win the hearts of billions of people on the globe. Otherwise, India will continue to bleed its resources of maintain its hold on Kashkmir with tenacity only fools can appreciate.

#149 by syedjaved on December 13, 2005 2:16am PT


A nation state has no right to abuse human beings in the name of territorial integrity that that too for so long.


Here`s the deal...you pakis only stopped the killing of the bangladeshis when India forced your army to surrender..

why don`t you get your army to force India to surrender and then the killings of the terrorists will stop...

Re: # 147
You are living in your imagined world where you have conceived such things about Pakistan and its people. All of your geralizations are subjective and irrelevant. Further acts of terrorism committed by a very acute minority (a couple of thousands) cannot be put on a nation of 150 million. In my understanding your all observations as well as your perception need correction. Pl understand Kashmir problem in correct perspective. Pakistan bashing will not do you any good.

Re: # 145
A nation state has no right to abuse human beings in the name of territorial integrity that that too for so long.

Re: # 143
``100K dead in 15 years...Population of Kashmir = 6 million?(or is it 13 million)...

do the math..``
You are absolutely wrong in your counting. Multiply your figure with 100 and you will get the real figures. Humanitarian abuses are extremely unsettling for any sensitive human being. Pl wake up shoulder your responsibilities as human being.

Re:syedjaved#142

You wrote,``But I don`t think riches can overtake ideology. ``

With all due respect, what ideology are you talking about? Two Nation Theory? You must be kidding. That theory has been dead for the past 30 years. Pakistan has shown how it treats muslims (forget about non-muslims). You people butchered millions of Bengali muslims in 1971 in a holocaust that is second only to Nazi Germany`s actions in WW2. You left behind lakhs of Bihari muslims stranded in refugee camps, people who are your own citizens, who follow your religion and who strongly support Pakistan. They are in need of your humanitarian gestures. Yet we dont hear even a word from anybody in Pakistan about these people.

Then in Pakistan`s borders, we see the miserable treatment given to Baloch who are muslims and who would love to secede from Pakistan. You used your own air force and military strength to hold on to these people. Then you made Ahmedis who were muslims into non-muslims. Today if they say `Salam Aleikum`, they can go to jail. Next you massacared Mohajirs in Karachi in the 1990s. Again these are muslim people who were the strongest supporters of Pakistan even before 1947. Now you have started killing Shias by calling them infidels. Every few weeks you hear of sectrian massacares, suicide bombings in mosques, assasination of Shia doctors. In Pakistan, the bastion of Islam, people are scared of praying in mosques in fear of bombs exploding from the opposing sects. Considering foreign relations, Pakistan is despised in Afghanistan and Iran. The Central Asian countries do not want anything to do with Pakistan.

Mr. Syed, no matter which way you look, Pakistan has made a laughing stock of Islam. You wear your religion on your sleeves and shout from the rooftops but your actions go against every teaching of the religion. Pakistanis have given a bad name to Islam throughout the world. With this kind of a disasterous track record, you want to get more territory and more people to join a failed country? That too on the basis of Islam, when you cannot even manage to keep a 97% muslim country to exist in peace and without religious strife? So what nonsense ideology are you talking about? Now if you say economics, then you know you can never compete with India. But even on Islamic brotherhood, Pakistan is a HUGE failure.

re:#134 by arjun_m
I did not suggest US will lean on India. It is in India`s own interest to satisfactorily resolve this problem (to the satisfaction of India and Kashmiris; i don`t care what Pakis think) and move on. I was suggesting that India is more vulnerable (economically) today than during the Cold war days (when it had the backing of Soviet Union) and cannot pretend as if the problem will solve by itself and it has just to hang on to the status quo.
Sridhar

re:#139 by syedjaved
In the part of the world u live in, you are probably never told the whole story. All u have learnt so far is that Kashmir should have gone to Pakistan but somehow the wily hindus prevented that from happening. Pakis like you, having been deprived of the most coveted possession, now come to Chowk and various other forums shedding crocodile tears about human rights violation in Kashmir.
My contention is simple. A nation state has every right to defend its territorial integrity. Now, do not jump up and down and scream out saying Kashmir does not belong to India. Legally it does. And, up until the early 80s, Kashmiris voted and elected their own state govt and a CM. Things got screwed up after this, much due to Indian political stupidity when voting rights were denied to average Kashmiris or elections were rigged. Result was disenchantment resulting in armed revolt by some quarters.
Indian democracy has had many such occasions. Khalistani movement (which was an armed revolt also) and the Dravidian movement before that (which was not violent) easily come to mind. Indian democracy ensured these were succesfully dealt with.
There is no reason to believe the same will not happen to Kashmir. It is, in fact, already happening. Kashmiris have already realized the futility of an armed revolt when the alternative (being at the mercy of a dictatorial regime of Paksitan) is worse than a nightmare. Kashmiris now talk about an honorable settlement with substantial autonomy sans independence.
This is likely to happen after Pak has been stalemated and its jehadi apparatus completely destroyed.
Sridhar

re:the irrelevance of SAARC
SAARC is going into irrelevance can be gauged from the fact that India is looking eastword into ASEAN and is now a member of the EAS to be held in Kaula Lumpur. There is nothing much for India in SAARC where Pakistan has made all economic progress contingent on Kashmir.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-12/12/content_502588.htm
(Step closer to a unified Asia
Eric Teo Chu CheowChina Daily Updated: 2005-12-12 05:24

The inaugural East Asia Summit (EAS) will be held in Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday, under Malaysian chairmanship, at the same time as the ASEAN and ``ASEAN+3`` summits.

It is probably accurate to say that thanks to Europe, Asians were brought together within ``ASEAN+3,`` as the latter was initially formed as a loose co-ordinating grouping within Asia-Europe Meeting or ASEM, officially launched in March 1996. The so-called Asian caucus then had seven ASEAN countries (the ``original five,`` Brunei and Viet Nam), China, Japan and the ROK.

``ASEAN+3`` then became formalized at the 1999 summit and functional co-operation was effectively extended beyond the annual summits and meetings of foreign, economic and trade ministers from the participating countries (now numbering 13) to cover health, education and social affairs over the past six years.

But two other important factors have influenced the final choice of participants in the EAS in Kuala Lumpur, which should number 16 when launched.

First, the United States will not be included in this summit, unlike the recently-concluded APEC meeting in Busan, and hence there is a need to cater for its non-participation.

Second, the rapid rise of India in the past few years has made it necessary for ASEAN to bring the country into the mainstream of Asian regional integration in some form.

Bearing in mind these two trends, ASEAN foreign ministers in a retreat in Cebu, the Philippines in May, agreed on three criteria for membership of the new EAS club.

First, nations must be dialogue partners of ASEAN; second, there must be substantial economic links with the region, and lastly, they must sign the ASEAN Treaty of Amity and Co-operation (TAC), before being admitted to the EAS.

China, Japan and the ROK automatically qualify; India qualified too, when it signed the TAC last December. But it was only after much careful consideration and negotiation that Australia and New Zealand agreed to sign the TAC. The last two countries were also included in the EAS, probably as a strategic assurance to the United States, namely that the EAS would not in any way go against the fundamental interests of Washington within the region, as the Americans had initially feared.

The agenda for the EAS appears to be still under consideration, as the grouping should perhaps be more attuned towards socio-economic matters, given the present difficulties in bridging serious and fundamental political contentions.

More crucially, there is now a lively debate on whether the future agenda of the EAS and its nascent organization would be focused exclusively on economics and social affairs alone or if it should also embrace security anti-terrorism co-ordination and other aspects of comprehensive security.

The recent Fourth High-Level Conference on Asian Economic Integration, held in New Delhi, raised this eventuality without a conclusive outcome.

Many observers had forecast the EAS would envision a sort of pan-Asian Free Trade Area (FTA), to begin to build towards an Asian Economic Community, whilst others have cited the possibility of building first an Asian Energy Community, along the lines of the European Coal and Steel Community (amongst its initial six members) in the 1950s.

Energy co-operation would certainly be high on the agenda, as Asian countries, ranging from China and Japan to Indonesia and the Philippines, battle the current oil price hike and the ensuing inflationary spiral that may slow down Asian economies.

But more fundamentally, there is also the live matter of the future relationship between ``ASEAN+3`` and the EAS, as the former already has intensified co-operation and connections in almost every field, which the three new members could tag on to. Or should the EAS be considered an ``ASEAN+3+3`` grouping, which India would not feel comfortable with, as it would then be relegated to the third circle?

In fact, the future relationship between the EAS (either as an ``ASEAN+3+3`` or ``ASEAN+6``) and the current ``ASEAN+3`` would probably be the most contentious matter to be effectively settled in Kuala Lumpur.

The debate in Kuala Lumpur could also focus on the nature of the future organization, which should eventually emanate from the EAS, notably if it should expand to include such aspiring members as Russia, Mongolia, Pakistan and others.

Besides the crucial matter of the future agenda, doubts have been raised about whether a new Asian organization or community could be officially launched. Initial hopes and aspirations of a nascent Asian Economic Community may be premature in Kuala Lumpur, and may have to be saved for the next summit, reportedly scheduled to be held in Singapore in two years` time.

The author is a council member of the Singapore Institute for International Affairs)
This is the direction Asia is moving, sans SAARC.
Sridhar

#142 by syedjaved on December 12, 2005 3:06am PT


How long can India scuttle the voice of innocent Kashmiries blatently killed by Indian forces in Kashmir.


100K dead in 15 years...Population of Kashmir = 6 million?(or is it 13 million)...

do the math..


My obsession for Kashmir is because I am human and I care for humanity.


So you weren`t human when the pakistani army butchered a bunch of bangladeshis in 71 and no one was prosecuted for it....what were you then?

Re: # 141

This is a typical Indian mind speaking not worth reply. What is new that you have spoken about? Why all the fuss about peace talks? How long can India scuttle the voice of innocent Kashmiries blatently killed by Indian forces in Kashmir. Do you think all those who are being killed are terrorists. Cetain terrorist for India in Kashmir may be the HERO of Kashmiries.
Money, Money, Money, Progress, India shining, riches passisng down to poor people. What dream are you talking about. India is too big and is reeling under its own burden. I wish India to progress. But I don`t think riches can overtake ideology. Keep trying and not listen to the voice ot wisdom. We will see how long can you hold on to Kashmir.
My obsession for Kashmir is because I am human and I care for humanity. If moneyed class/interest in India is not listenisng today they will acknowledge that tomorrow. Humanity will succeed and come out victorious.

Re:syedjaved#140

Why are you getting so worked up about Kashmir? Opinion polls have shown that Kashmiris do not want to join Pakistan any more. They may not want to be in India but they do not want to go to Pakistan either. In fact, they prefer independence. So as a Pakistani you need to forget about your dreams of Kashmir joining you, period. The Kashmiris no longer want to do so, understand?

The comparison of Kashmir with Palestine is absolutely ridiculous. India has allowed free and fair elections in Kashmir and Kashmiris have their own government. Even so called Azad Kashmir does not have this in Pakistan. India does not allow people from other parts of India to buy Kashmiri land, so Kashmiris control their own land, unlike Palestinians. Kashmiris have equal rights like any other Indian so there is no discrimination, unlike Palestine. India has not done anything to harm Kashmiris on an institutional basis. Yes, there is a guerilla war going on between separatists/jihadis and the army, which is always messy. If the guerilla war stops, Indian army will withdraw as well. After all, before 1989, there was no huge army presence there.

The issue is whether Kashmiris want to be separate or remain part of India. That issue will get resolved over time. In 1989 when the insurgency started, Indian economy was in tatters. The Kashmiris didnt have much to lose by leaving India. Now the Indian economy is booming and Kashmiris are definitely affected by it positively. So the incentive to separate is going to diminish over time as Kashmiris reap the rewards of a good economy. Also, Indian society is changing and becoming even more integrated across the board as time progresses. Religion is going to fade into the background as a big issue as people are getting united based on Indian nationalism. Kashmiris cannot resist that pressure forever. So it is simply a matter of winning the Kashmiris over, not based on rhetoric but making it part of their self-interest. Of course, India may give larger autonomy and open borders with Pakistan as a sop, but it will not let go of Kashmir.

Re: # 138-by arjun_m on December 10, 2005 8:06am PT
Dreams are always impossible untill they are realised. People like you cannot hold futurists back by clinging to their feet. Pl come to sense. Kashmir always was humanitarian issue and will remain so whether the so called Jehadi fight for Kashmir or not. You sound like a Hindu Jehadi to me. What difference does it make what sect or religion you follow if your acts of omissions or comissions are harmful to fellow humanbeings. Do you have the answer why there is the largest concentration of army on earth in Kashmir if Kashmiries like you? Why there is random killing of people five to ten on the average everyday? Kashmir is as big problem as Palestinine where equal number of people are being killed however as Palestinian have support of Arab Media, the events in Palestine are flashed out to the whole world, whereas what is happening in Kashmir at the hands of Indian forces, media being not there, is blacked out. Occasionally news creep into Pakistan media of the atrocities of Indian army, otherwise everything goes unnoticed.
From where did you get the news that part of Kashmir was given to China? We never had any boundry disputes with China which is a great country ruled by wise people. We had understanding of border demarcation with China and that should be done with every bordering country. Again this should be biased media reports feuling your ... wits.
Dear, I am not here to score honours for me. I want to bring the truth out and I strongly feel that this is high time India looked at the Kashmir dispute seriously. Yes India is a big country and can wave off or sweep under carpet such issues for forseeable time, however, pl be reminded that no issue by whatever power can be put off for ever.
India will solve the problem of Kashmir, history will witness this, either gracefully in near future or will be brought down to its knees by whatever forces in distant future to acknowledge the inalienable right of Kashmiries. regds.

Re: # 138
Dreams are always impossible untill they are realied. People like you cannot hold futurists back by clinging to their feet. Pl come to sense. Kashmir always was humanitarian issue and will remain so whether the so called Jehadi fight for Kashmir or not. You sound like a Hindu Jehadi to me. What difference does it make what sect or religion you follow if your acts of omissions or comissions are harmful to fellow humanbeings. Do you have the answer why there is the largest concentration of army on earth in Kashmir if Kashmiries like you? Why there is random killing of people five to ten on the average everyday? Kashmir is as big problem as Palestinine where equal number of people are being killed however as Palestinian have support of Arab Media, the events in Palestine are flashed out to the whole world, whereas what is happening in Kashmir at the hands of Indian forces, media being not there, is blacked out. Occasionally news creep into Pakistan media of the atrocities of Indian army, otherwise everything goes unnoticed.
From where did you get the news that part of Kashmir was given to China? We never had any boundry disputes with China which is a great country ruled by wise people. We had understanding of border demarcation with China and that should be done with every bordering country. Again this should be biased media reports feuling your ... wits.
Dear, I am not here to score honours for me. I want to bring the truth out and I strongly feel that this is high time India looked at the Kashmir dispute seriously. Yes India is a big country and can wave off or sweep under carpet such issues for forseeable time, however, pl be reminded that no issue by whatever power can be put off for ever.
India will solve the problem of Kashmir, history will witness this, either gracefully in near future or will be brought down to its knees by whatever forces in distant future to acknowledge the inalienable right of Kashmiries. regds.

#135 by syedjaved on December 10, 2005 2:39am PT


Do I sound like a Jehadi.


You sound like a jihadi sounds when he`s failed to achieve his ``Kashmir banega Pakistan`` wet dreams through jihad...

You`d be taken more seriously if your talk about the humanitarian considerations hadn`t been preceded by failed wars and failed Islamic jihad by your country..


First you were all jihaaaad and ``1 muslim = 10 hindus`` and ``brave warriors of Islam will kick the hindu bania and liberate Kashmir``....when that failed, and only because that failed, you`re talking about humanitarian considerations...


many Pakistanis believer ``Kashmir Bani Gha Pakistan``. I also tend to agree with them.


The tendency of Pakistanis to believe in flying pigs has no bearing on the ability of the oinkers to grow wings and take to the sky...

P.S.: What about the part of Azad Kashmir that you gave away to the chinese?

Re: # 129
Humanitarian issues should have greater indulgence of thinking people.