The Violent Face of South Asia
M V Kamath December 7, 2005
#112 Posted by dost_mittar on December 10, 2005 5:16:50 am
bolta_aina#104:
``But this is not the character of our country. No particular place or state belongs to one particular set of people.``
I did call that objective ugly, didn`t I?
simran#106:
``What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere?``
Of course, it does. Protecting the life and property of every citizen is the first requirement of good governance. My reference was to the present state of governance; as far as I am aware there is no genocide taking place now; in fact, the whole damn thing in 2002 was nothing more than a ghastly act to ensure Modi`s reelection. After he was reelected, there was a big attack on Akshardham temple by jihadis, and yet there was no Newtonian reaction to that attack.
mannyd#109:
``You might say that things in Gujrat were also out of Modi`s control.``
But they weren`t! Notice how he was able to prevent any retaliation against the Akshardham temple attack.
``But this is not the character of our country. No particular place or state belongs to one particular set of people.``
I did call that objective ugly, didn`t I?
simran#106:
``What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere?``
Of course, it does. Protecting the life and property of every citizen is the first requirement of good governance. My reference was to the present state of governance; as far as I am aware there is no genocide taking place now; in fact, the whole damn thing in 2002 was nothing more than a ghastly act to ensure Modi`s reelection. After he was reelected, there was a big attack on Akshardham temple by jihadis, and yet there was no Newtonian reaction to that attack.
mannyd#109:
``You might say that things in Gujrat were also out of Modi`s control.``
But they weren`t! Notice how he was able to prevent any retaliation against the Akshardham temple attack.
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#111 Posted by mannyd on December 10, 2005 2:50:24 am
Arjun_m # 76: The original two quetsions in my post #74 were :
``Very often the non issual of visa to Modi by the US, is quoted as proof of Modis guilt.
What credentials do the US have to say who is guilty and whos not?` `
1. Do you agree that non issual of US visa is NOT A PROOF of Modi`s guilt? It is at most a proof of the weekness of BJP PAC and strength of ANTI-BJP lobbies in the USA.
2. Do you agree that US has no legal authority to try leaders of soverign nations? If you think USA does have that authority, please show me how it obtained that authority and what the process of legal defence is.
`OTOH, modi could have stopped the killing cold on day 1.
The culpability is not the same....Dubya gets the blame for placing US troops in a situation where they accidentally kill Iraqi civilians..Modi is guilty as heck..`
I personally put heavy faith in your statements about `Modi is guilty as heck or ` he could have stopped the killings cold on day1`, but they will not stand as proof in any court of law except a Kangroo Court or the infamous Multan Panchayat of Pakistan. Please do expand on why you feel the way you feel though.
Even with 750 K Indian soldiers in Kashmir, number of Hindus killed in J& K had been on the rise until a complete ethnic cleaning of 600K Pundits took place. I know the evil Pundits have been blamed by some to cunningly arrange their own misery, but where are the equivalent Gujrati Muslim camps? Why was not the killing in Kashmir stopped cold on day1, day 1000, day 2000 or day 3000? Who is guilty as heck in Kashmir?
Salim #99: I second Jang`s comment on that post.
``Very often the non issual of visa to Modi by the US, is quoted as proof of Modis guilt.
What credentials do the US have to say who is guilty and whos not?` `
1. Do you agree that non issual of US visa is NOT A PROOF of Modi`s guilt? It is at most a proof of the weekness of BJP PAC and strength of ANTI-BJP lobbies in the USA.
2. Do you agree that US has no legal authority to try leaders of soverign nations? If you think USA does have that authority, please show me how it obtained that authority and what the process of legal defence is.
`OTOH, modi could have stopped the killing cold on day 1.
The culpability is not the same....Dubya gets the blame for placing US troops in a situation where they accidentally kill Iraqi civilians..Modi is guilty as heck..`
I personally put heavy faith in your statements about `Modi is guilty as heck or ` he could have stopped the killings cold on day1`, but they will not stand as proof in any court of law except a Kangroo Court or the infamous Multan Panchayat of Pakistan. Please do expand on why you feel the way you feel though.
Even with 750 K Indian soldiers in Kashmir, number of Hindus killed in J& K had been on the rise until a complete ethnic cleaning of 600K Pundits took place. I know the evil Pundits have been blamed by some to cunningly arrange their own misery, but where are the equivalent Gujrati Muslim camps? Why was not the killing in Kashmir stopped cold on day1, day 1000, day 2000 or day 3000? Who is guilty as heck in Kashmir?
Salim #99: I second Jang`s comment on that post.
#110 Posted by Ranger.. on December 10, 2005 2:47:53 am
Simi ....I`m hoping you atleast have a decent figure. You are a big zero in the brains dept. The least you could do would be to get your facts right.
1. IT companies like Infy, Wipro never asked for nor got any subsidy from any government. All they did get was freedom from the obscurantist labor laws and obstructive leftist trade unions that plague the manufacturing sector in India.
2. Poverty in India has reduced dramatically since the opening up of the economy in 1991. While 42% of India`s population was below poverty line in 1990 , today, 24% of India`s population is below poverty line - this is inspite of a corresponding increase in population by 20% in the same period. Meaning , since 1991 , atleast 20 million Indians have been rising out of poverty each year. In the same period , incomes have quadrupled, literacy increased by 25% and infant mortality dropped by 20%.
3.Now talking of malnourishment - its a common trick used by leftist academics to push their `povertarian` agenda. As people get richer , their diet graduates from basic food like rice to a more sophisticated diet. Surjeet Bhalla , the famous economist tackles this issue very well in this outlook article , intended to be a retort to the naxalite journalist Sainath`s leftist tirade
>>
Journalists: Are you trustworthy?
Surjit S Bhalla | BS | October 15, 2005 | 12:53 IST
Two Indian institutions have withstood the test of time and emerged, time and again, as saviours of India - the Supreme Court and the Press. Now both are under attack.
The Supreme Court for its highly illogical (illegal?) decision that the politically motivated dissolving of the Bihar assembly was unconstitutional (so far so good), but that the consequences of this anti-constitutional act were okay, especially given the ``political realities`` (so far, terrible). I am not a lawyer, but how does one challenge a flawed Supreme Court ruling?
The media also has been under some criticism, especially after a leak about the Prime Minister having a meeting regarding the falling stock market turned out to be a false leak. There is talk of whether there should be a regulatory mechanism set up to force journalists to be honest.
I think this advocacy is a non-starter - the consumer is the one who ultimately will correct the imbalances and punish the guilty. How can a regulator decide what is intentionally false, and what is the result of pure ignorance?
P Sainath, an award-winning rural affairs writer for his book, `Everyone Loves a Good Drought`, has just published an article entitled ``Lost the Compass?`` (Outlook, October 17, 2005). In this article, Sainath is very critical of the role of the media, especially its role in ignoring the real India, the aam aurat.
He laments, ``Rural India is a giant canvas that is begging the media to do a portrait, many portraits. But it has failed resoundingly``. He worries that rural suicides do not get as much media attention as celebrity suicides.
But the one ``woman bites dog fact`` of Sainath that grabs genuine attention is his startling and shocking claim that ``foodgrain available per Indian fell almost every year in the (economic) `reforms` period.
And by 2002-03, it was less than it had been at the time of the great Bengal famine (of 1943)``. This in your face journalistic fact is then highlighted as a blurb by the helpful editors.
The fact that the consumption of foodgrains is highly income inelastic - i.e. consumption of foodgrains increases very little with income, once an individual is sufficiently beyond starvation levels - is a well-known occurrence, at least since the time of 19th century German statistician Ernst Engel, and economists have ceased to study the problem of stagnation of cereal consumption with income growth.
This is a stylised fact, which, after centuries of growth among centuries of countries, has not been violated. Engels` law does not state that absolute per capita consumption declines with income growth, only that the rate of increase slows down.
An absolute decline of consumption does occur with many goods - these are called ``inferior`` goods, and foodgrains is just such an inferior good.
So Sainath`s point that foodgrain consumption declined in the 1990s would be consistent with the poor actually having higher incomes after the reforms! But his ``fact`` that per capita foodgrain consumption has actually declined to the average level prevailing in a famine year is a priori startling.
Actually not that startling, because Nobel prize winning economist Amartya Sen warned us that the Bengal famine was not due to a shortage of supply of foodgrains. Nevertheless, I do find Sainath`s claim as somewhat of a shocker.
Alas, none of Sainath`s two claims is anywhere near the truth. Per capita consumption (strictly speaking, availability) of foodgrains averaged 364 grams per capita per day in the 1950s, and 391, 398, 420, 441 and 419 in subsequent decades with the last number being for the period 2000 to 2003 (all data from the widely and easily available Government of India, 2004-05 Economic Survey, Table S-17).
Contrary to Sainath, per capita availability of foodgrains peaked in the decade of the reforms. What about the particular year Sainath mentions, 2002-03?� It turns out that in that year the availability was a high 457 grams a day!
These statistics would suggest that Sainath`s wild assertion about per capita consumption in 1943 is equally wildly off the mark. If he is right, it would mean that in 1951, per capita availability of� 334 grams a day was some 25 per cent lower than the famine year of 1943�surely, not possible. In 1941, the population of India was 383 million (inclusive of Pakistan and Bangladesh).
Total production of foodgrains was 48 million tonnes and 1.8 million tonnes of foodgrains were imported. This yields a per capita availability of 342 grams a day, lower by 3 per cent than a decade later, and lower by a third than Sainath`s very low 2002-03 levels.
This is the age of the journalists - they have more power and influence than ever before. Today, ideas spread more through journalism than through the academia. Policy makers listen to them, especially if the journalists` expertise corresponds to their ideology.
Populism pays and pays much more than hard-headed factual analysis. By keeping the guilt in check, it makes the Scotch of the elite go down that much better.
Ordinary folks do not have the knowledge, or the interest, or the time, to fact check the data spitted out by journalists. Unlike academics, journalists do not have to cite their sources - it takes too much space and affects the flow.
In return for this privilege, journalists have a responsibility to not betray the trust, or at least not to betray it so blatantly.�
4. India only spends 3% of its GDP on defence , which is the bare minimum (Pakistan spends 8%) , given the fact the India is surrounded by enemies on all sides who are hell bent on destroying the country. As the Indian economy , one of the fastest growing is the world , continues to grow at 8% p.a. , expect massive corresponding increase in the defence expenditure although defence budget is maintained at just 3% of the GDP. No expense should be spared to ensure the security of the country.
4.Naxalite activity is because of anti-national leftists like yourself. If your fellow leftist morons from JNU are put behind bars and tortured to death , there will be no more naxalite activity. You people take advantage of poverty of simple village folk to further your anti-national agenda.
5. Far too many people in India are involved in farming. The way to cut down on rural poverty is to free the economy from the clutches of bureacracy and centralised control - to get rid of the remnants of socalism ...as the Indian economy moves more towards the Right, and breaks away from the clutches of leftist trade unions /nehruvian socialism , we will see the intrinsic entrepreneurship of Indians rise to its full potential. The IT sector has shown the way......the sky is the limit if government gets out of the business of business and lets the market forces dictate terms. Let the market rule , and watch poverty disappear.
But wait - that will make Indians rich and India powerful. Thats against your agenda.
1. IT companies like Infy, Wipro never asked for nor got any subsidy from any government. All they did get was freedom from the obscurantist labor laws and obstructive leftist trade unions that plague the manufacturing sector in India.
2. Poverty in India has reduced dramatically since the opening up of the economy in 1991. While 42% of India`s population was below poverty line in 1990 , today, 24% of India`s population is below poverty line - this is inspite of a corresponding increase in population by 20% in the same period. Meaning , since 1991 , atleast 20 million Indians have been rising out of poverty each year. In the same period , incomes have quadrupled, literacy increased by 25% and infant mortality dropped by 20%.
3.Now talking of malnourishment - its a common trick used by leftist academics to push their `povertarian` agenda. As people get richer , their diet graduates from basic food like rice to a more sophisticated diet. Surjeet Bhalla , the famous economist tackles this issue very well in this outlook article , intended to be a retort to the naxalite journalist Sainath`s leftist tirade
>>
Journalists: Are you trustworthy?
Surjit S Bhalla | BS | October 15, 2005 | 12:53 IST
Two Indian institutions have withstood the test of time and emerged, time and again, as saviours of India - the Supreme Court and the Press. Now both are under attack.
The Supreme Court for its highly illogical (illegal?) decision that the politically motivated dissolving of the Bihar assembly was unconstitutional (so far so good), but that the consequences of this anti-constitutional act were okay, especially given the ``political realities`` (so far, terrible). I am not a lawyer, but how does one challenge a flawed Supreme Court ruling?
The media also has been under some criticism, especially after a leak about the Prime Minister having a meeting regarding the falling stock market turned out to be a false leak. There is talk of whether there should be a regulatory mechanism set up to force journalists to be honest.
I think this advocacy is a non-starter - the consumer is the one who ultimately will correct the imbalances and punish the guilty. How can a regulator decide what is intentionally false, and what is the result of pure ignorance?
P Sainath, an award-winning rural affairs writer for his book, `Everyone Loves a Good Drought`, has just published an article entitled ``Lost the Compass?`` (Outlook, October 17, 2005). In this article, Sainath is very critical of the role of the media, especially its role in ignoring the real India, the aam aurat.
He laments, ``Rural India is a giant canvas that is begging the media to do a portrait, many portraits. But it has failed resoundingly``. He worries that rural suicides do not get as much media attention as celebrity suicides.
But the one ``woman bites dog fact`` of Sainath that grabs genuine attention is his startling and shocking claim that ``foodgrain available per Indian fell almost every year in the (economic) `reforms` period.
And by 2002-03, it was less than it had been at the time of the great Bengal famine (of 1943)``. This in your face journalistic fact is then highlighted as a blurb by the helpful editors.
The fact that the consumption of foodgrains is highly income inelastic - i.e. consumption of foodgrains increases very little with income, once an individual is sufficiently beyond starvation levels - is a well-known occurrence, at least since the time of 19th century German statistician Ernst Engel, and economists have ceased to study the problem of stagnation of cereal consumption with income growth.
This is a stylised fact, which, after centuries of growth among centuries of countries, has not been violated. Engels` law does not state that absolute per capita consumption declines with income growth, only that the rate of increase slows down.
An absolute decline of consumption does occur with many goods - these are called ``inferior`` goods, and foodgrains is just such an inferior good.
So Sainath`s point that foodgrain consumption declined in the 1990s would be consistent with the poor actually having higher incomes after the reforms! But his ``fact`` that per capita foodgrain consumption has actually declined to the average level prevailing in a famine year is a priori startling.
Actually not that startling, because Nobel prize winning economist Amartya Sen warned us that the Bengal famine was not due to a shortage of supply of foodgrains. Nevertheless, I do find Sainath`s claim as somewhat of a shocker.
Alas, none of Sainath`s two claims is anywhere near the truth. Per capita consumption (strictly speaking, availability) of foodgrains averaged 364 grams per capita per day in the 1950s, and 391, 398, 420, 441 and 419 in subsequent decades with the last number being for the period 2000 to 2003 (all data from the widely and easily available Government of India, 2004-05 Economic Survey, Table S-17).
Contrary to Sainath, per capita availability of foodgrains peaked in the decade of the reforms. What about the particular year Sainath mentions, 2002-03?� It turns out that in that year the availability was a high 457 grams a day!
These statistics would suggest that Sainath`s wild assertion about per capita consumption in 1943 is equally wildly off the mark. If he is right, it would mean that in 1951, per capita availability of� 334 grams a day was some 25 per cent lower than the famine year of 1943�surely, not possible. In 1941, the population of India was 383 million (inclusive of Pakistan and Bangladesh).
Total production of foodgrains was 48 million tonnes and 1.8 million tonnes of foodgrains were imported. This yields a per capita availability of 342 grams a day, lower by 3 per cent than a decade later, and lower by a third than Sainath`s very low 2002-03 levels.
This is the age of the journalists - they have more power and influence than ever before. Today, ideas spread more through journalism than through the academia. Policy makers listen to them, especially if the journalists` expertise corresponds to their ideology.
Populism pays and pays much more than hard-headed factual analysis. By keeping the guilt in check, it makes the Scotch of the elite go down that much better.
Ordinary folks do not have the knowledge, or the interest, or the time, to fact check the data spitted out by journalists. Unlike academics, journalists do not have to cite their sources - it takes too much space and affects the flow.
In return for this privilege, journalists have a responsibility to not betray the trust, or at least not to betray it so blatantly.�
4. India only spends 3% of its GDP on defence , which is the bare minimum (Pakistan spends 8%) , given the fact the India is surrounded by enemies on all sides who are hell bent on destroying the country. As the Indian economy , one of the fastest growing is the world , continues to grow at 8% p.a. , expect massive corresponding increase in the defence expenditure although defence budget is maintained at just 3% of the GDP. No expense should be spared to ensure the security of the country.
4.Naxalite activity is because of anti-national leftists like yourself. If your fellow leftist morons from JNU are put behind bars and tortured to death , there will be no more naxalite activity. You people take advantage of poverty of simple village folk to further your anti-national agenda.
5. Far too many people in India are involved in farming. The way to cut down on rural poverty is to free the economy from the clutches of bureacracy and centralised control - to get rid of the remnants of socalism ...as the Indian economy moves more towards the Right, and breaks away from the clutches of leftist trade unions /nehruvian socialism , we will see the intrinsic entrepreneurship of Indians rise to its full potential. The IT sector has shown the way......the sky is the limit if government gets out of the business of business and lets the market forces dictate terms. Let the market rule , and watch poverty disappear.
But wait - that will make Indians rich and India powerful. Thats against your agenda.
#109 Posted by mannyd on December 10, 2005 2:16:25 am
DM #75: `Nehru did perform his Rajdharma when he told village elders that they would be shot if riots happened. That he did not succeed was because the events were out of his control, you might say that he was himself a victim of the ``ghalughera`` that happened at that time. But he did succeed in containing the fires largely within Punjab.`
Thanks for responding.
You might say that things in Gujrat were also out of Modi`s control. Had there been no riots after Godhra burning of 59 Hindu women and children, would you say that Modi performed his Rajdharma just fine? How long did it take Vajpayee himself to take action instead of finding scaoegoats after the fact and making pious declarations?
Rajdharma is a strange funny word and even stranger concept. Does it require Bush to make sure every mail sorting machine in the country is working properly? Is it applicable to minority rights only?
The way to hell is paved with good intentions and even better speeches.
All the 1947 leaders are guilty of sacrificing their followers for their own naked lust for power. In fact you can blame every single Hindu- Muslim riot in India, including Gujrat massacre, on Nehru for the muddled thinking on partition. Either there should never been a partition or a civilized population exchage as demanded by Jinnah.
Look at the number of Chowkies living and working outside their countries and poll people still back home, who would like to migrate out if they had a chance.
What was wrong with being and staying as part of the British Empire?
Thanks for responding.
You might say that things in Gujrat were also out of Modi`s control. Had there been no riots after Godhra burning of 59 Hindu women and children, would you say that Modi performed his Rajdharma just fine? How long did it take Vajpayee himself to take action instead of finding scaoegoats after the fact and making pious declarations?
Rajdharma is a strange funny word and even stranger concept. Does it require Bush to make sure every mail sorting machine in the country is working properly? Is it applicable to minority rights only?
The way to hell is paved with good intentions and even better speeches.
All the 1947 leaders are guilty of sacrificing their followers for their own naked lust for power. In fact you can blame every single Hindu- Muslim riot in India, including Gujrat massacre, on Nehru for the muddled thinking on partition. Either there should never been a partition or a civilized population exchage as demanded by Jinnah.
Look at the number of Chowkies living and working outside their countries and poll people still back home, who would like to migrate out if they had a chance.
What was wrong with being and staying as part of the British Empire?
#108 Posted by mannyd on December 10, 2005 1:37:23 am
Simran #106:
`If the government does not become more pro-poor, pro-rural or just pro-people for that matter, violent upheavels of the naxalite kind are bound to happen.`
I can bet you as a Khalistani are not poor, rural or even Indian citizen. Your predictions and threats about Naxalite upheavels are truly funny.
Dost-Mittar, ``I agree that Narendra Modi is doing a good job in Gujrat...``
What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere? Or is it just based on industrial output?`
What are your parameters for a good genocide? What should be the objective of a really good genocide? Compare Modi`s performance with that of Rajive Gandhi, Tara Singh and Grampa Nehru.
Is any voting Muslim left in Gujrat?
`If the government does not become more pro-poor, pro-rural or just pro-people for that matter, violent upheavels of the naxalite kind are bound to happen.`
I can bet you as a Khalistani are not poor, rural or even Indian citizen. Your predictions and threats about Naxalite upheavels are truly funny.
Dost-Mittar, ``I agree that Narendra Modi is doing a good job in Gujrat...``
What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere? Or is it just based on industrial output?`
What are your parameters for a good genocide? What should be the objective of a really good genocide? Compare Modi`s performance with that of Rajive Gandhi, Tara Singh and Grampa Nehru.
Is any voting Muslim left in Gujrat?
#107 Posted by mannyd on December 10, 2005 1:28:21 am
Simran #106: `Ranger, a no thanks for your generous offer. Your oppressive masculinity reeks of pro-Modi stench so just save it for yourself for any sane woman will puke.`
Simran ji: Ranger is known to have made that offer to every female, every male whose nick might sound female and even inanimate objects like School busses. His opressive masculinity whether pro-modi or pro-Manmohan Singh can not be saved for himself. What wiil he do with the savings? Get annual interest on it?
Any sane woman will puke? If you are getting ill because of his stench, you can modify that to `any woman will puke`.
Your demand for subsidy of every farmer who gets only one meal a day is totally insane. Do you think the money for the subsidy comes from Manmohan Singh working on the printing presses?
Simran ji: Ranger is known to have made that offer to every female, every male whose nick might sound female and even inanimate objects like School busses. His opressive masculinity whether pro-modi or pro-Manmohan Singh can not be saved for himself. What wiil he do with the savings? Get annual interest on it?
Any sane woman will puke? If you are getting ill because of his stench, you can modify that to `any woman will puke`.
Your demand for subsidy of every farmer who gets only one meal a day is totally insane. Do you think the money for the subsidy comes from Manmohan Singh working on the printing presses?
#106 Posted by Simran on December 10, 2005 12:14:46 am
Bongdongs,
Essentially you`re against agricultural subsidies as you feel the money spent there could be put to better use. I disagree with you. If industry can be subsidised, then why not agriculture? It`s ok for Infosys and Wipro to be subsidised but the poor farmer with barely one meal a day should not get any government assistance. You cannot have lopsided development by favouring one over the other. It is true that some subsidies today do not reach the poor farmer with small land holdings. However, that is misplaced targetting of the subsidies and does not take away the fact that they are needed.
As you know, agricultural subsidies have become a contentious issue with ministers from around the world trying to reach an agreement for the next WTO meet at Hong Kong. You cannot expect India to do away with subsidies when the US and France continue to have huge direct subsidies for their agricultural sector. This has meant that their cheap produce is sent to poor countries like India, making it impossible for the farmers there to compete, impoverishing them further. They are faced today with soaring input costs and crashing output prices. As many as 3,000 farmers took their lives in a single district of Andhra Pradesh (Outlook Magazine, Oct 05). There is an ongoing agrarian crisis which is policy driven, and the sooner the government comes to terms with this, the better.
I reiterate that India needs to sort out its priorities. We need to have a more participatory democracy where the voice of the poor is also heard. India, which ranks 127 on the Human Development Index (slipping from 124), was the leading buyer of conventional weapons among developing nations in 2004, according to a US congressional report. India has more undernourished human beings than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. While the number of people faced with chronic hunger fell by 80 million in 19 countries (according to the FAO`s State of Food Insecurity in the World Report 2003), it has risen in India by 19 million since 96-97. By the way, 19 million is almost the population of the continent of Australia. Also, India still has some of the highest levels of child undernutrition in the world. Yet, the Indian government spends less than Rs. 5000 crore a year on the Integrated Child Development Services scheme even as children form about 15% of the population. Now contrast this with more than Rs. 80,000 crore for defence expenditure. Our spending on health is less than 1% of the GDP. The facts are chilling but there for all to see.
If the government does not become more pro-poor, pro-rural or just pro-people for that matter, violent upheavels of the naxalite kind are bound to happen.
Dost-Mittar, ``I agree that Narendra Modi is doing a good job in Gujrat...``
What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere? Or is it just based on industrial output?
Ranger, a no thanks for your generous offer. Your oppressive masculinity reeks of pro-Modi stench so just save it for yourself for any sane woman will puke.
Essentially you`re against agricultural subsidies as you feel the money spent there could be put to better use. I disagree with you. If industry can be subsidised, then why not agriculture? It`s ok for Infosys and Wipro to be subsidised but the poor farmer with barely one meal a day should not get any government assistance. You cannot have lopsided development by favouring one over the other. It is true that some subsidies today do not reach the poor farmer with small land holdings. However, that is misplaced targetting of the subsidies and does not take away the fact that they are needed.
As you know, agricultural subsidies have become a contentious issue with ministers from around the world trying to reach an agreement for the next WTO meet at Hong Kong. You cannot expect India to do away with subsidies when the US and France continue to have huge direct subsidies for their agricultural sector. This has meant that their cheap produce is sent to poor countries like India, making it impossible for the farmers there to compete, impoverishing them further. They are faced today with soaring input costs and crashing output prices. As many as 3,000 farmers took their lives in a single district of Andhra Pradesh (Outlook Magazine, Oct 05). There is an ongoing agrarian crisis which is policy driven, and the sooner the government comes to terms with this, the better.
I reiterate that India needs to sort out its priorities. We need to have a more participatory democracy where the voice of the poor is also heard. India, which ranks 127 on the Human Development Index (slipping from 124), was the leading buyer of conventional weapons among developing nations in 2004, according to a US congressional report. India has more undernourished human beings than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. While the number of people faced with chronic hunger fell by 80 million in 19 countries (according to the FAO`s State of Food Insecurity in the World Report 2003), it has risen in India by 19 million since 96-97. By the way, 19 million is almost the population of the continent of Australia. Also, India still has some of the highest levels of child undernutrition in the world. Yet, the Indian government spends less than Rs. 5000 crore a year on the Integrated Child Development Services scheme even as children form about 15% of the population. Now contrast this with more than Rs. 80,000 crore for defence expenditure. Our spending on health is less than 1% of the GDP. The facts are chilling but there for all to see.
If the government does not become more pro-poor, pro-rural or just pro-people for that matter, violent upheavels of the naxalite kind are bound to happen.
Dost-Mittar, ``I agree that Narendra Modi is doing a good job in Gujrat...``
What are your parameters for good governance? Does genocide figure in there somewhere? Or is it just based on industrial output?
Ranger, a no thanks for your generous offer. Your oppressive masculinity reeks of pro-Modi stench so just save it for yourself for any sane woman will puke.
#105 Posted by Ranger.. on December 9, 2005 11:02:47 pm
``I agree that Narinder Modi is doing a good job is Gujarat but he has no other option left.``
Thats good then. If he is doing a good job with the administration and management of the economy because he has no option because of his alleged role in the killing of muslims , then it is in people of India`s interest that mass killings of muslims takes place in every state in the country. That will leave our leaders with no other option but to concentrate on providing us with a decent administration....
Thats good then. If he is doing a good job with the administration and management of the economy because he has no option because of his alleged role in the killing of muslims , then it is in people of India`s interest that mass killings of muslims takes place in every state in the country. That will leave our leaders with no other option but to concentrate on providing us with a decent administration....
#104 Posted by bolta_aaina on December 9, 2005 10:43:27 pm
#43 Dost Mittar
``I found bolta_aina`s comment in #40 quite interesting. If Modi has indeed instilled fear among Muslims and discouraged them from coming to Gujarat, that too is an indication of the efficiency and success of his objective, howsoever ugly that objective might be. ``
But this is not the character of our country. No particular place or state belongs to one particular set of people. The country belongs to all its people irrespective of their caste,creed, religion, region or whatever. Non-gujarati Hindus are not going to buy this argument that Narinder Modi has done a great job by preventing Muslims from entering Gujarat or forcing Gujarati Muslims to leave Gujarat. Because Hindus, overall, are not ready to compromise on the secular character of the country over the religion.
I agree that Narinder Modi is doing a good job is Gujarat but he has no other option left. He has become a persona-non-grata in other states and if he wants to survive politically then he has no alternative but to do a good job in Gujarat. Otherwise, he will sink without a trace like his other counterparts Kalyan Singh, Shanker Singh Vaghela etc.
``I found bolta_aina`s comment in #40 quite interesting. If Modi has indeed instilled fear among Muslims and discouraged them from coming to Gujarat, that too is an indication of the efficiency and success of his objective, howsoever ugly that objective might be. ``
But this is not the character of our country. No particular place or state belongs to one particular set of people. The country belongs to all its people irrespective of their caste,creed, religion, region or whatever. Non-gujarati Hindus are not going to buy this argument that Narinder Modi has done a great job by preventing Muslims from entering Gujarat or forcing Gujarati Muslims to leave Gujarat. Because Hindus, overall, are not ready to compromise on the secular character of the country over the religion.
I agree that Narinder Modi is doing a good job is Gujarat but he has no other option left. He has become a persona-non-grata in other states and if he wants to survive politically then he has no alternative but to do a good job in Gujarat. Otherwise, he will sink without a trace like his other counterparts Kalyan Singh, Shanker Singh Vaghela etc.
#103 Posted by jang on December 9, 2005 7:13:44 pm
salim, your post #99 was so full of wisom, that it brought tears to my eyes. your are a noble, compassionate, intelligent, balanced and articulate person. please accept my admiration.
(my post is likely to be filtered by the chowk staff for not ignoring interact guidelines, but so be it.)
(my post is likely to be filtered by the chowk staff for not ignoring interact guidelines, but so be it.)
#102 Posted by Ranger.. on December 9, 2005 7:08:24 pm
This interact has been filtered by Chowk for ignoring Chowk InterAct! Guidelines, you are viewing it because you have chosen to ignore the Chowk filter
Simran ,
``Ranger, do the guys in funny looking khaki shorts pay you or do you do free seva for them for being their mouthpiece on the internet?``
Actually...RSS are a bunch of harmless fools stuck in a long forgotten age who still believe in concepts like `swadeshi` and stuff like that. Their economic agenda is no different from that of communists. And they detest `american culture`. Unlike RSS , I am all for free trade , easy no holds barred sex (which I would love to share with you..commie babes can be sexy sometimes), MNCs and so on.
So apart from loyalty to the Indian nation , and shared hatred for Islamic fundamentalists , soul harvesting missionaries and leftist terrorists ...me and RSS , we dont have much in common.
There is a whole new class of Indians like me. You will find them everywhere. Dunno why I should strike as anything special. Just a part of a trend.
Heard of neocons in US ? They support the conservative agenda in US just like the religious right. However difference is , unlike the religious right , neocons are agnostics and believe their country is greater than any god , greater than even the christian god....
#101 Posted by Ranger on December 9, 2005 6:57:55 pm
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#100 Posted by samosa on December 9, 2005 3:21:24 pm
Re: # 99
This article is not about riots in gujarat. If you want to talk about violence in south asia then Kashmir comes in picture even before Gujarat. When you talk about gujarat to me, Gandhi, Patel, Textile, Kite Festival, Food and so many other things comes in picture. Riots happened in 2002, 1992 and also before.
While in this article the author is talking about naxalite and maoist violence that is affecting bimaru states and fundamentalism in pakistan and bangladesh. These violence is occuring at a very alarming rate of once a week wrt to pak and bangla while more than once a day in bimaru states of india.
While in Gujarat that kind of violence does not exist and it is relatively prosperous compared to many other states of India. If you were discussing riots in India then mention gujarat otherwise dont need to bring godhra at every other nook and corner while discussing India.
This article is not about riots in gujarat. If you want to talk about violence in south asia then Kashmir comes in picture even before Gujarat. When you talk about gujarat to me, Gandhi, Patel, Textile, Kite Festival, Food and so many other things comes in picture. Riots happened in 2002, 1992 and also before.
While in this article the author is talking about naxalite and maoist violence that is affecting bimaru states and fundamentalism in pakistan and bangladesh. These violence is occuring at a very alarming rate of once a week wrt to pak and bangla while more than once a day in bimaru states of india.
While in Gujarat that kind of violence does not exist and it is relatively prosperous compared to many other states of India. If you were discussing riots in India then mention gujarat otherwise dont need to bring godhra at every other nook and corner while discussing India.
#99 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on December 9, 2005 2:37:11 pm
#98, samosa,
No discussion of Germany during WW II is complete without a passing reference to the Holocaust. Yes, it is that significant.
No discussion of violence in South Asia or about Gujarat can ignore the most horrible and shameful massacres anywhere in the world in this century.
As pro-Indian as I am, everytime Ahmedabad, Gujarat, Baroda, Modi, or Surat is mentioned, I immediately think of the horrors of 2002.
And before people start on personal questions (as they did about my concern for stranded Pakis in Bangladesh), I am not Indian, I am not Gujarati, I had no relatives or friends or even acquaintances killed or injured in the Gujarat massacres. I answered the same way to the Pakis who questioned my support for the stranded Pakis. No, I am not Bihari, I have never been to East Pak or BD, I had no relatives or friends stranded, killed or injured in BD.
I am motivated by human concerns and compassion. I read about the `84 massacres in Delhi and found them to be cruel, terrorizing, and shameful. I read about the `47 massacres during partition and I was disgusted by the behavior of Punjabis, Biharis, and Bengalis and what they did to each other - almost the same people, maybe even related to each other.
No discussion of Germany during WW II is complete without a passing reference to the Holocaust. Yes, it is that significant.
No discussion of violence in South Asia or about Gujarat can ignore the most horrible and shameful massacres anywhere in the world in this century.
As pro-Indian as I am, everytime Ahmedabad, Gujarat, Baroda, Modi, or Surat is mentioned, I immediately think of the horrors of 2002.
And before people start on personal questions (as they did about my concern for stranded Pakis in Bangladesh), I am not Indian, I am not Gujarati, I had no relatives or friends or even acquaintances killed or injured in the Gujarat massacres. I answered the same way to the Pakis who questioned my support for the stranded Pakis. No, I am not Bihari, I have never been to East Pak or BD, I had no relatives or friends stranded, killed or injured in BD.
I am motivated by human concerns and compassion. I read about the `84 massacres in Delhi and found them to be cruel, terrorizing, and shameful. I read about the `47 massacres during partition and I was disgusted by the behavior of Punjabis, Biharis, and Bengalis and what they did to each other - almost the same people, maybe even related to each other.
#98 Posted by samosa on December 9, 2005 2:24:12 pm
Re: # 83
MVK is talking mostly about maoist violence. These people are hindus. He talks about muslim fundamentalism in Pakistan and Bangladesh. He is not blaming maoist or naxalite violence on pakistanis or indian muslims. MVK is equating naxalite violence with the underdevelopment of the economies where the violence occurs. His solution to the violence is economic development of those regions.
Chowkies have started discussing exclusion of Godhra riots as author talks about gujarats prosperity. Any article on violence in India needs to making atleast a passing remarks on godhra violence otherwise you will not be considered genuine.
MVK is talking mostly about maoist violence. These people are hindus. He talks about muslim fundamentalism in Pakistan and Bangladesh. He is not blaming maoist or naxalite violence on pakistanis or indian muslims. MVK is equating naxalite violence with the underdevelopment of the economies where the violence occurs. His solution to the violence is economic development of those regions.
Chowkies have started discussing exclusion of Godhra riots as author talks about gujarats prosperity. Any article on violence in India needs to making atleast a passing remarks on godhra violence otherwise you will not be considered genuine.
#97 Posted by samosa on December 9, 2005 2:08:20 pm
Re: # 75
DM: The first major shuffle of police officer took on March 28, 2002 i.e. one month after godhra and second time the reshuffle was on April 7, 2002 when media and journalist were attacked during medha patkar visit to sabarmati ashram.
What else are your reason to compare modi to hitler.
DM: If you are accusing Modi for inflammatory remarks about muslim then please do not quote ``Musharaaf Mia`` as ``Mia`` is a very common term to refer to a any particular muslim by Gujaratis. The remarks against musharaaf were made after he went to UN and was lecturing India on protecting minorities.
DM: The first major shuffle of police officer took on March 28, 2002 i.e. one month after godhra and second time the reshuffle was on April 7, 2002 when media and journalist were attacked during medha patkar visit to sabarmati ashram.
What else are your reason to compare modi to hitler.
DM: If you are accusing Modi for inflammatory remarks about muslim then please do not quote ``Musharaaf Mia`` as ``Mia`` is a very common term to refer to a any particular muslim by Gujaratis. The remarks against musharaaf were made after he went to UN and was lecturing India on protecting minorities.
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