The Violent Face of South Asia

#63 by dost-mittar {``Salim_Chauhan: You are the best poster on this thread. Now, if only you could succeed in curbing your weakness of answering ``one sunaar ki`` with ``sau lauhaar ki``, you could soon become chowkie No. 1.``}

DM Sahib,
I am just one of the fishies in the sea. Thank you for your encouragement and kind advice. I agree with you and really need to learn how to ignore insults initiated by my opponents. I am sorry if I may have offended you in any way. Sometimes, even I regret the retaliation against my adversaries. Believe it or not, I even feel sorry for some of them. :)

As for Chowkie #1, I decline, please understand my steadfast hesitancy at adopting a numerically-suffixed nic. Just look at the examples Hamidum2, Atif2, Ali1, and someone named 32. :)

MV Kamath on CHOWK? For Heaven`s Sakes! Well done Mz Versey! WOWZERS.

(btw National Geographic Nov 05 issue has a readable write-up on Maoists in Nepal).

I remember Lal Salaam reading this.

The rise of naxalism is a very complex socio-economic issue. Frustration from a system that doesn`t seem to deliver to many, forces them to take things into their hands. It is unfortunate however, that they choose the path of violence to realize their aims.

India needs to rethink its priorities. In a country where around 65% of the people or even more, are dependent on agriculture, the government allocates a negligible amount of the budget to this sector (less than 4%). Most of the main political parties cater to the middle class(around 30%) or upper classes. No wonder the BJP lost so badly after all the claims of India Shining. It wasn`t shining for the majority. The rural voice does not reach the centre or any decision making body for that matter and farmer suicides continue unabated. I, myself, have been to vilages where people live on just one meal a day, that too if they are lucky. No surprise then if the economist John Dreze thinks India to be an elitist democracy.

The government needs very badly to be pro-poor and pro-rural. The voices of the dispossed need to be heard. It is only when the left makes small noises at the centre that the Congress party deems it fit to do something. Although the rise of Panchayati Raj and the Rural Employment Guarantee Act are steps in the right direction.

Ranger, do the guys in funny looking khaki shorts pay you or do you do free seva for them for being their mouthpiece on the internet?

Modi is a monster in the guise of a man and anyone who supports him is insane. And yes, the people of Gujrat are to blame for bringing him back to power. Reminds me yet again of the hopelessness evident in a woman`s eyes in the documentary Final Solution by Rakesh Sharma, where even after knowing who was responsible for the riots and the destruction of her home (which was re-built by a Muslim Organization), this Hindu lady says she would still vote for Modi. ``Aur kar bhi kya sakte hain?`` she asks. Very disturbing, to say the least.

Dost-Mittar, Gujrat was not the first time that someone responsible for protecting the people, himself condoned if not incited mass murder. Have you so easily forgotten 1984?
Also, you overly simplify history when you say that Hitler came to power because of the powerful combination of anti-semetism and economic progress. The reasons of his rise to power were varied and essentially he made a back door entry into German politics.

On a different note, I remember reading an article of Mr. Kamath in The New Indian Express, somewhere around the beginning of the year, totally in support of Modi and deploring the fact that he had been denied the American visa. I remember emailing him my reaction but never getting any reply. So, no suprises if he didn`t as much as allude to the Gujrat pogrom in this article.

mannyd:

One could have compared Bush to Modi if, following the 9/11 attack, he had made an inflammatory statement against Muslims or Arabs to provoke attacks against innocent Americans. To his credit, he did the opposite and emphasised that the attackers did not represent Islam.

#74 by mannyd on December 9, 2005 11:18am PT


Specially when up to 100, 000 dead Iraquis are laid on Bush`s door-steps, compared to 750 dead Mulims in Gujrat on Modi`s.


Most of the 100K Iraqis were killed by the sunni jihadis...OTOH, modi could have stopped the killing cold on day 1.

The culpability is not the same....Dubya gets the blame for placing US troops in a situation where they accidentally kill Iraqi civilians..Modi is guilty as heck..

Ranger#67:

I am not surprised that Modi has many admirers, especially among HUMs (Hindu Urban Middleclass). But Hitler, too, was quite popular among Non-Jewish Germans after Krystallnacht.

Samosa:

No, it`s not just that Newtonian statement. I remember his transferring one or more senior police officers who were trying to fulfil their dharma of protecting the innocent.

mannyd:

Nehru did perform his Rajdharma when he told village elders that they would be shot if riots happened. That he did not succeed was because the events were out of his control, you might say that he was himself a victim of the ``ghalughera`` that happened at that time. But he did succeed in containing the fires largely within Punjab.

Parthaab: `Very often the non issual of visa to Modi by the US, is quoted as proof of Modis guilt.
What credentials do the US have to say who is guilty and whos not?`

Yes that never ceases to amaze me, coming from people I like and admire.

Specially when up to 100, 000 dead Iraquis are laid on Bush`s door-steps, compared to 750 dead Mulims in Gujrat on Modi`s.

The US attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq were in reaction to the destruction of the WTC towers in NY.

There!

Right or wrong, does that statement make me a mass murderer, worse than Hitler, Sadam, Jinnah or Ghengis Khan?
Is Bush a monkey leader of monkey men like me?

If your considered answer is `Yes`, please have a nice day and life. I concede. I can not win with blinding flash of logic like that.

salim its not about classification of violence. its on the lines of you ``understanding`` MQM torture cells (while condemning the violence in the same minty-fresh breath).

although hitler was democratically elected the first time, he immediately subverted the state and got rid of democracy. modi is different, he got elected fair and square twice, so i think there are a lot of people in gujrat who ``understand`` him and they (the voter) prolly also condemn the mindless killing in a fafda-smelling breath.

as far as putting modi on international style trials, i am ambivalent due to various reasons. ideally, its desirable to have more ``normal`` successful speedy trials. and yes, indian politics, society and judiciary are still far from civilized ideals. (i will ognore the chinese model, just check how they are dealing with the uighurs).

DM # 64: `Even Vajpayee had said that Modi failed to perform his ``Raj Dharma``.`

Dm ji, since you have a pretty good handle on the Indian scene, who else failed to perform his/hers Raj Dharma since 1947? During 1947, Nehru toured scores of Punjab villages and threatened to have the village elders shot if Muslims were molested in any way. However within a few weeks about half a million Muslims were butchered and six million more kicked out of their homes in less than a year. For me that remains the worst ever killing of Muslims in India.

Did Nehru fail in his `Raj Dharma` then? Was Nehru a mass murderer/ Would you put him in the same category as Hitler? If not, why use a different measure for Modi? Emotional outbursts may be good to vent your anger, but they reduce your credibility in seeking lasting solutions to a definite problem.

How many people died in Gujrat? How long did the riots last? How do previous Hindu-Muslim riots elsewhere compare with Gujrat in those two criterion?

Let us start with what the pattern is and what an aberretion would be.

Of course Salim is the best honest Pakistani Chowki friend India or even `Akhand Bharat` RSS could have. There is already a price on his head for calling the partition a mistake. There have been four more like him on the Chowk in the past, but I will not name them. If Salim says something about Hindu/RSS problems, i would listen very carefully.

Re: # 60 Salim
For a person who lost his family it does not matter whether the violence occuring was at a regular rate or an abberation. But we are talking abour impact of continous violence like maoit in bimaru and other states on economy.

Very often the non issual of visa to Modi by the US, is quoted as proof of Modis guilt.
What credentials do the US have to say who is guilty and whos not?

Ageed they do still command attention because they have one of the biggest economy and biggest educated populations in the world. But unfortunately today they too are in the grip of the neo cons, and their foreign policy will only reflect varying shades of extreme right wing ideology.

Re: # 51
DM: Newtons third law was not quoted by modi. It is a lie. If you hate modi for that particular reason that you are hating him for wrong reasons.
http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/guild/anaguild.html

The case of the Newton’s Theory
The English media in India gives an impression to be particularly upset with the Gujarat Chief Minister for his alleged use of Newton in explaining the Hindu reaction to the massacre at Godhra. The Newton analogy seems now to be part of the mainstream parlance in the English media when talking about the Gujarat Chief Minister and the violence.
It is important to take note of the news item entitled “‘Newton’ Modi has a lot of explaining to do”, in which it would seem that the CM has specifically used the Newton’s third law (quoted in the publication as ‘Every action has an equal and opposite reaction’) to ‘virtually justify what is happening’. It is also pertinent to note the first sentence of the item - “Fish rots from the top, and if the ugly event unfolding in Gujarat over the past four days are any indication, the same holds true of governance too.” (The Times of India, March 3, 2002)
The Government of Gujarat, on the very day of the item having appeared, sent a letter to Dileep Padgaonkar, about the content and the tone of the news item. (The letter was published in the Guild report, P. 73, 74). This denial was not published by the newspaper even to this day. However, the Newton analogy is now being used freely all over the English media. Once again, it is clear that Sandesh is following the tradition of its national counterparts.
The Annexure 4A of the Editors Guild Report in which a transcript of the interview of The Gujarat Chief Minister by Zee TV is given, the CM has said that though there is an action followed by a reaction, he wants neither the action nor the reaction to take place. He has not used neither the name of Newton to explain the situation, nor provided any justification for the riots that followed.

Salim , Dost-Mittar......Modi is a democratically elected leader. Won a massive victory in a fair and free election.Many times over. Does not have a single case against him in any court of law. Was voted as the best chief minister in India by a nationwide opinion poll conducted by the popular India Today magazine. You folks may not like him too much , but the people of Gujarat and a whole lot of people in India have great admiration for him. Like hateful muslims and leftists , you are welcome to talk about trying him in international courts and hanging him , but that will only be possibly in your wet dreams. Still , dream on.

Also..Dost-Mittar ....Modi`s visa to US getting revoked is old news. Means nothing. All the hardworking soul harvesters and leftist academics of Indian origin in US who got that done have no influence in an Indian election. Last month , a crucial local body election was held in Gujarat - which the BJP under Modi won handsomely. Giving an indication as to the mood of the electorate.

What to do ? Ours is a democracy . People of India decide who is to be their leader. Not Salim , not Dost-Mittar and thankfully not Farzana Versey - who is just a minority.

Salim Chauhan:

If my point was not a moral one, how are you drawing moral conclusions. Whether violence is justified or not is a different issue, be it Bihar and Gujarat. I am not taking a moral standpoint at all.

However, an outburst of violence for a short period of time is more manageable than a sustained low level violence. The former is seen as an aberration. The latter is seen as the norm. The victim`s opinions are irrelevant since they are dead anyways. I am talking about the perception of stakeholders.

Mr. Kamath: I grew up reading IWOI, Dharma Yuga and ChandaMama around my house. It was a pleasant surprise that you are still writing after all these decades. It was a Tamil gentleman who was the chief editor of Weekly then before Khushwant Singh.

That the Weekly folded after almost 150 years of publication is a sad commentary on the tastes of the current readership in India.

I hope you will write some more for this web site in the future.