The Violent Face of South Asia

Mannyd,

You are still not clear on why you hate communism. Amerikan propaganda has given communism a bad name. I d assume that could be the reason.

As far as this author is concerned, only religion seems to matter in the first two paragraphs and given that bias, I d assume he hates maoists for their difference in ideology too.

Religion begets hatred for a different ideology. And hate begets hate. An unending cycle.

#205, Mannyd {``There may be things we disagree on now or in the future, but it will not lower at least my opinion of you and many many other sensible Pakistani cyber-friends, young and old.``}

Mannyd,
Likewise. I have always enjoyed your friendly and positive outlook. Thanks for your wonderful support.
As for debates, it would be extremely boring if we all limited our discussions to how much we dislike cancer, murder, world hunger, and bad weather.

I acknowledge the similarities between Indians and Pakis and sincerely regret the decision for partition.

Salim #203: Thanks Chauhan Sahib. You yourself have been a civilizing influence on Chowk in no small measure. There may be things we disagree on now or in the future, but it will not lower at least my opinion of you and many many other sensible Pakistani cyber-friends, young and old.

#202 parthaab Bhai: I think I gave my reasons for being against Communism already, but we can go over those again if you can answer my questions and assumptions in #200, so that it does not become a dialog of the deaf.

I`ll answer your three new questions in #202, based on my beliefs and opinion.

``Dont democrats murder too? Was nt Hitler elected democratically? Just because extremely religious America hates the kommunists, why should you join the band wagon?``

1. If democrats murder, they should stand trial for murder. Murder should not be a political party`s platform and that is exactly what Mr. Kamath has said above against Maoists. He is advocating more jobs, not murder of Maoists.

2. Hitler was elected democratically, but once in power, he changed the constitutuion and refused to step down. Is that supposed to be an argument against democratic elections? He also was a vegetarian, painted pictures, liked classical music, brushed his teeth, made love to a blonde mistress and kept an alsatian dog as a pet. Because Hitler did all these things, are they automatically evil?

3. Americans spell Communists with a C, just like you. I think you are just trying to portray me as a hillbilly for no reason. I am an agnostic, but someone`s extreme religiosity is not a sin in my view, as long as I am left alone. You may find it very difficult to believe, but in the USA, I am free to jump on any bandwagon I like or stand by to watch the parade. No one is holding an AK47 to my head. DO you find that freedom of expression, association, religion or politics offensive and obscene? Will your Maoists friends allow that too? If not, that is one of the reasons for my being against tyrrany of Maoists.

Now please do clear up my assumptions and answer my questions in 200. Thanks.

I just want to commend all the participants here on this forum for their exemplary behavior while discussing such an emotional and divisive issue. There have been very few, if any, examples of profanity, vulgarity, disrespect for fellow humans, and intolerance. I am pleased to note that there are Indians, representing all shades of the political spectrum, who can articulate their point of view, while allowing others to disagree with them. Some even note the obvious logic present in their opponents` arguments. This is healthy and I applaud your civilized manner. Is it any wonder why democracy has taken deep roots in India while consistently being extinguished next door? The contrast in behavior on Chowk is so apparent and it all comes down to intolerance.

mannyd, I guess you hate maoists because of this : `...I am assuming Maoists are communists and against free markets and capitalism...`

You have nt figured why you are against communists.
Dont democrats murder too? Was nt Hitler elected democratically? Just because extremely religious America hates the kommunists, why should you join the band wagon?

Parthaab: Just to show you I am not asking for any special treatment for myself, you have my unstinted and unreserved support to fill your house with Mao`s little red books, read them day and night, buy a necklace of worry beads and chant `Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao` day and night.

All those goodies on one condition though. Promise me that you and your Maoist friends would not buy Ak47s and kill people, will stand in the next general elections and sell the voters on following you, because you guys found inner peace chanting `Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao`.

A guilty party can be `braught to justice` in an extrajudicial manner, strung up by a posse on the nearest tree, murdered in a covert operation, blown up by a wild eyed fanatic or burnt at the stake by a mob out to have a good time.

At a fair trial, there is an attempt to let the prosecution press charges at the accused, give him or his attorney a chance to select neutral peers, untainted by crowd hysteria and have the prosecution prove to these people beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty.

Parthaab 199: The name Mao mostly. If they changed their name to Parthaabists, I could live with that.) I also do not like their violence, refusal to obtain power through democratic elections and refusal to see that Mao`s land is not Maoist any more. Would you call China Maoist today? If not why are you forcing that ideology on India?

I am assuming Maoists are communists and against free markets and capitalism. If my assumption is wrong, please do correct me. Also do help me understand your concerns about right winging of journalism and bashing of Maoists. I looked at the article again, there is not a single occurance of the word `Muslim` anywhere.

So please leave `and muslims for good measure` out. There is no need to rake up communal fires to make your point, or has that become a standard operating procedure for left wingers?

Why is right wing journalism any worse than left wing journalism? Are you proposing a government agency that reviews, grades and labels journalism like the movie rating system to protect the public morality? There may be some reason to keep X rated material out of children`s hands, but Parthaab`s attempts to control what Mannyd wants to read is not acceptable to Mannyd, no matter how life threatening your concerns may be to you.

You gentlemen had a great time during the Stalin era, but those days of glory are gone for ever specially with the internet. I do not know or care who Arun shorie is, but why can he not ply his trade if there are paying customers to pay him? Whu are you kicking the poor guy in his stomach?

Now can you explain why Maoists are good and need your protection? Why do you like them so much? What is so sacrosanct about these sacred cows that they can not be bashed?

Yes you do care what my dad`s politics were, because you accused me of being ignorant and full of pure hate against left wing politics.

Mannyd,

You have failed utterly to point out what exactly you have against Maoists.

If you had cared to notice, I am concerned about right winging of journalism in India, as exemplified by the author who wrote the aticle bashing maoists ( and muslims for good measure).

I dont care if your dad voted for democrats or the extreme right wing.

Re: # 196

On a different note:

How is `brought to justice` different from `deserved a fair trial` ?

Re: # 196

Mannyd,

Right...

``I would have OJ, Modi, Jagga Daku, you or Parthaab have the same right to a fair trial. ``

Now we need to agree on what is a `fair trial`. Would you like to have a first shot at this?

GT #191: Yes I can believe you. The lack of labor unions in China should be quite visible to the left wingers, Maoists, Naxalites of India. On the witch hunt, see Monty Python`s trial of a witch and how the evidence is gathered and presented by the mob to burn her. It is hilarious, except to the witch.

GT #192: No the trials of these people can and do take place. See the British court trial of NeoNazi `Historian`, so feverishly supported and worshipped by the Islamist intelligentia on Chowk, where it was proven that the state did take part in the Genocide of millions of jews. Also see the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials and trial of Eichman in Israel. I do not know of Viashali (except its Nagarvadhu) too much, but the Hindu jurisprudence as reported by the Muslims would make you sick. It was a trial by heat and fire, still followed by some African tribes.
`Now you will say....well these guys should (or should have been) be brought to `proper` justice.....that is exactly what I am saying too.`

No, I will never say that. They all deserved a fair trial as well as Rajive, Indira or Modi.

Actually there was a case filed against Modi in the British court. It was thrown out for lack of evidence. I have developed a respect for the western justice system very slowly and can not let go of the anchor. Basically it lets many `guilty` people go scott free on technicalities, but makes sure that only the truly guilty get punished.

Unfortunately it still fails in many cases despite safeguards and innocent people get railroaded. I would rather be tried for a crime that way, than in Multan or Hazara any day and I would have OJ, Modi, Jagga Daku, you or Parthaab have the same right to a fair trial.

Re: # 193


Samosa,

Great question...and you got me here. But allow me to try....and help me along (also correct me). This is an appeal to all legal types in chowk. Let me just provide a start.

First problem. As far as I know a criminal case cannot be filed against the Gujrat govt. by an individual.....it has to be done by the govt. (see the problem here). So some kind of public interest case has to be (designed and) filed. How should it be done? I don`t know. That brings us to the second and third (potential) problems.

Second problem: Resources. It will require tremendous amount of money, time and dedication to formulate a proper (as opposed to a propogandist) case. How should this be done? Intelligent and practical people with good organizational skills will also be required.

Third problem: Political opposition. Potentially from every party from the BJP to the Congress to Jamait-whatever. Threats (and their implementation) of potential witnesses, interviewers, lawyers etc. especially if the case is to be unbiased (so no political patronage can be expected).

Much more...take the ball on your court and develop it further.

Re: # 186

Samosa,

I don`t know about this Rajeev fellow...but you are right about Arundhati. These `liberals` do more harm to the cause of liberalism than non-liberals.....they...well let me stop here.

# 191 GT
Why to give you a break? Just kidding.
But if you dont think its a witch hunt then just search google for ``Narendra Modi Newton Law`` without quotes and you will find tons of article stating he quoted Newtons third law. And after that tell me whether its a witch hunt or not.
I dont think the law should be different for different kind of people whether powerful or powerless. Nevertheless how should Gujarat government prove their innocence?

Re: # 191

Mannyd and samosa,

Let me try to expound on the ``give me a break`` bit in my post 191.......Hitler was never proven to be ``guilty`` by a `fair` court, Osama is innocent, so is the guy exchanged by the Indians to release the hijacked passengers in Kabul, the innocent Mussolini was just stringed up, Zia was innocent....Bhutto was not etc. etc....all by your language (or logic).

Now you will say....well these guys should (or should have been) be brought to `proper` justice.....that is exactly what I am saying too.

As far as the onus of the state is concerned.....get hold of the jurispudence system of ancient Vaishali (around Ashoka`s time).....an individual could appeal against the government twelve times....the govt. could not appeal even once! (Do not ask me for references, I forget....darn! maybe ylh can help?) And you (we) thought that individualism is a western concept........(As an aside: for materialism and rationality read sankya darshan).