The Violent Face of South Asia

samosa#62:

Yes, I would very much like those kind of reforms in Madrassas, but I would prefer that such initiatives come from less tarnished individuals, preferably from Muslims themselves. Once a person has earned the reputation Modi has, even the noblest initiative towards Muslims would look suspect in their eyes.

And no, I did not form my opinion from reading TOI. Even Vajpayee had said that Modi failed to perform his ``Raj Dharma``.

Jang#55:

You have said nothing that contradicts what I have said or, for that matter, I have not said in the past as was evident in my post on another thread about talk of ``Muslim mentality`` in Hindu groups. As far as I know, such prejudice is not unique to Gujarat and similar prejudices exist in all parts of India. It is when the state itself becomes prejudiced that such atrocities take place. This is what happened in Gujarat in 2002 and Delhi in 1984.

Salim_Chauhan:
You are the best poster on this thread. Now, if only you could succeed in curbing your weakness of answering ``one sunaar ki`` with ``sau lauhaar ki``, you could soon become chowkie No. 1.

Re: # 40
There is no need to compare modi to god. He is an efficient administrator and the biggest problem other politician have with him is that he is not corrupt at all. Even there are dissidents in BJP because he has made corruption hard for them. He has shielded the bureacrat from politician making adminstration easy.
Every aspect of politics does not need to be looked through religious prism. If occurence of riots are standards for secular credentials then India has lost those credentials even before it became free. There as been no proof of Modi condoning the riots. The gujarat police captured nearly 36,000 hindus during the riots.
Re: #43
If you extend any series of number to an infinite values you will always find a pattern in them. while talking about violence by maoist that is more regular gujarat or any other riots need not be included. killings and kidnappings are more than regular phenomena in bihar up orissa and few other states of india. and these state are most impoverished and that again feeds more violence. author is potraying a picture where maybe increased development could lead to less violence and somewhere the cycle of violence needs to be broken to increse employment and investment in bimaru states.
DM: You found the article in dawn interesting but would you support anyone who would try to implement that in india or gujarat.
Re: #48
DM. People assume opinion about Modi and hatred towards him exactly the same way you did. I am merely saying what is generally being said about him.. For me I have lived in Maharasthra and Gujarat. I see the pace of development in Guajrat much different with Modi as a Chief Minister. I wish people form opinion about Modi from other sources than leftist or congress media (e.g. TOI).
Re: 49
Gujaratis are very enterprising groups but you should see how efficient the government mechanism has been compared to before. It has improved a lot and still lot needs to be accomplished in terms of governance.

#55 by jang {``... i find it very naiive to blame ``modi``, call him hitler etc. Modi and hitler (or rajiv gandi) do not happen in a vaccum. i cant say confidently about hitler, but modi is definatley a REPRESENTATIVE of his people. ... i think people fall in a PC trap of not blaming a populance and just a leader (who tends to be a populist follower or a cynical user of public perceptions). i think you should blame the community fair and square. all modi used was a megaphone and code-words. (mian musharaff, hindu mentality are typical codewords). ...``}

Jang,
Hitler was democratically elected as Chancellor. Milosevich was also an elected leader of Serbia at one time. Sadman Houston, by himself, could not have terrorized and controlled millions of people. Now, that we have established the democratic credentials of Modi, Hitler, and Milosevich, can we not give them all the same treatment for enticing, leading, cheerleading, planning, and ordering mass slaughter of their favorite minorities? Let`s throw in Sadman Houston, UBL, Mr. Jagdeesh Tytler and his cohorts, Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif, Bal Thackeray, Altaf Bhai, Kradjich, and Mladic just to make sure we get all the rascals who thought that killing is OK if they themselves don`t get blood on their hands. I say give them all a fair trial, then hang the bastards.

#39, Stuka {``The fact remains that Bombay is not racked by violence in a systematic way where it impacts infrastructure, investment climate, socio-ecominic development. Same is the case in Gujarat. In Bihar OTOH, violence is ongoing impacting investor confidence, development of infrastructure etc. .. Gujarat falls in the first category. Karachi falls in the second because though there is no outburst, systematic violence or at least the perception of it has become the norm. ``}

Stuka,
I am impressed that you are able to categorize violence into the instantaneous and ongoing, spurts and smooth flows, impulsive and sustained. When it doesn`t disrupt business and investment climate, it is not as bad as when it diminishes investor confidence and development of infrastructure. I guess you have a point - a short, quick, and violent rape is preferable to a sustained, continuous, and never-ending one. A single session of being burned alive is better than slow-roasting forever. Two thousand and fifty-nine people killed in a few days is better than one here and one there dying every day. Maybe we should ask the victims.

#38 by harish_hyd {``Yaar Salim, I agree that the author made a mistake in not referring to the violence in Gujarat, thereby diminishing the article`s objectivity.

Having said that, I`m sure you know that intermittent communal violence is almost a way of life in India. ...Outsiders usually have a rather exaggerated picture of life after a riot. Time is a great healer and after a while, anger subsides, but hunger doesn`t.``}

Harry,
Thanks for noting the peculiar absence of Gujarat in Mr. Kamath`s list of violent events. Also, notice the subtle reference to the Gujarat massacres as the ``Godhra`` riots by some obviously very opinionated Indians. Such words are key phrases that betray the ostensibly fair-minded facade of many such individuals. I am glad to learn that in the case of Hyderabad, you and your neighbors manage to care for each other. While such riots may be commonplace in India, I do not accept that they should be a way of life. India is better and deserves better. Whether time heals, anger subsides, or pragmatism takes over, it is imperative that the perpetrators of horrible crimes be brought to justice swiftly, fairly, and convincingly - Godhra chai wallas, BJP/RSS/VHP/JS/SP/BD activists, partisan police, state workers, deceitful neighbors, and the run of the mill ghoonDas.

In Pakistan, despite the clumsy, inefficient, and corrupt government and even more corrupt police, common citizens have learned not to indulge in riots of this type and to inflict mass punishment on the minority de jour. Yes, there are bombings (even suicide ones now), kidnappings, and violent strikes against authorities, but mob violence leading to the horrible crimes witnessed in Gujarat are not commonplace - the obvious and condemnable ones are the ones in Punjab (1947) and Sohrab GoTh (1986), the massacres of Bengalis took place in the then East Pakistan in 1971 - the crimes being conducted by the ``heroic`` Paki army. These are all events that deserve our condemnation and unfortunately the culprits were never punished - thus paving the way for further future atrocities.

further to #57 but your point is well made anyway. :-)

jang #55: the leader of the hindutva monkey-men is still a monkey-man.

Samosa #36, {``You have not lived in Ahmedabad or anywhere in gujarat while I have and while you might think that muslims feel like a sword is hanging on their head every moment but that is not the case. you find my view one sided but my view is practical. I am speaking from my experience in ahmedabad, baroda and surat where I interacted with muslims. I did not ask them directly but it was my feeling. People in India are quite resilient. Babri demolition, Bombay riots, Mandal Riots, Godhra riots and very soon people live the normal life as they have to get food for their family every evening. They do not have the luxury to be scared.``}

Samosa (vegetarian I am sure:) )

I applaud your optimism and pragmatism - especially when the victims were overwhelmingly Muslim. :) What you seem to be saying is the following:

``Now that the hyenas and lions have had their fill of fresh meat, the killing is over for now, so get back to grazing grass and making more babies for the carnivores.``

It`s amazing that right-wing Hindus find such clear, undeniable, and vivid stories of rape, torture, and murder in the misty old accounts of the 8th, 11th, and 13th century Muslim conquests, yet want to pretend that horrible massacres, videotaped rapes, mutilated corpses, photographed victims just before they were slaughtered, and eyewitness-backed accounts of bestiality are all normal events that can be erased for the sake of mundane daily concerns.

My friend, India will never attain its lofty objectives of being a first-rate society and a magnet for the world`s free people, safe investments, and reliable source of products if it does not contain and reverse the blight of violence. China had its last case of uncontrolled, state sanctioned violent behavior as far back as the Cultural Revolution, which probably set back their economy considerably - they seemed to have learned from their mistake. India should do the same.

Now that the converstion is nicely off-track to Modi (thanks to balance seekers..), i find it very naiive to blame ``modi``, call him hitler etc. Modi and hitler (or rajiv gandi) do not happen in a vaccum. i cant say confidently about hitler, but modi is definatley a REPRESENTATIVE of his people. he has gotten elected by beating his old (ex) RSS rivals. enough folks in gujrat said that modi is a strong man who taught muslims a lesson (this i have heard very often). so blaming modi is naiive..there is a whole populance which supports him and does his bidding. i think people fall in a PC trap of not blaming a populance and just a leader (who tends to be a populist follower or a cynical user of public perceptions). i think you should blame the community fair and square. all modi used was a megaphone and code-words. (mian musharaff, hindu mentality are typical codewords). So in summary, you can blame modi for not being a saint but a pragmatic HUMAN politician. There have been many in history, many got big followings and then some are considered evil, and some are not.

#43, DM Sahib,
Thank you for noting Modi`s responsibility as mass murderer in the 2002 ``riots.`` Of course, one can continue to admire his administrative skills, his pro-business policies, and even his intention of modernizing madrassas. Actually, I am all for equality, modernity, progressive thinking, and meritocracies. I support the elimination of illogical quotas, catering to special needs of certain minorities, separate judicial systems, and separate marriage rules. I would love to see the unfair power of Indian Mullahs (and Paki mullahs for that matter) diminished or eradicated. All that said, I think that violence, arson, looting, torture, raping, murder, and burning of victims should not be tolerated at all in this century. State support and sponsorship of such horrible acts, which is clearly evident in Modi`s government`s behavior, is unpardonable. Modi belongs in a cage for human rights abuses just as Sadman Houston and Milosevich do - and Kradijich and Mladic are to follow.

#46, Gujju,
You have every right to politely express any opinion or wish that you may want to share. Whether your stupidity is ever implemented is up to people`s discretions. I am against banning, filtering, erasing, ostracizing, or muzzling of opinion. Having said that, let me express my disappointment in your extreme jingoism. I have been reading Farzana`s articles for almost a year and a half and find her views to be rather liberal, secular, and enlightened. If she is a fundo, Jihadi, right-wing Paki then I can deduce that either you are a lone genius or you have lost all your marbles, or your elevator (that`s lift for you anglophiles) doesn`t go all the way up. :)

#40, Bolta Aina {``But it will be too simplistic an assumption in case of Gujarat. The Gujarati Muslim is definitely fearful now. Moreover. Non-gujarati Muslims are fearful of going and working in Gujarat. The Gujarat episode has seriously dented the secular credentials of India as a whole and it is going to take quite some time for the wounds to heal. Narinder Modi may be a God for Gujarat but he is a curse for Hindu, Hindusim and Hindustan``}

Yappin Mirror, Greetings, :)
Thank you for articulating clearly and unconditionally this uncharacteristic pimple on India`s beautiful face. If you are a Hindu and an Indian, I admire your objectivity even more. People like you restore the confidence of those seeking justice.

Ranger#50:

Ever since the day he made the famous remarks about Newton`s Third Law (something he is now trying to deny!) my position on Modi has remained the same. When a Chief Minister makes such a statement, he all but declares an open season on the target group. Long after the riots were over, he continued to refer to Muslims as Mia Musharraf, which was a not-so-subtle attempt to portray all Muslims as traitors. This is why despite strong pro-BJP lobbies, he was banned from entering the US and cancelled his proposed trip to the UK.

And while I have acknowledged reports which praise him for his administrative competence, it is good to remember that Gujarat was not exactly Bihar when he took over. I remember seeing TV pictures from the earthquake zone during the Gujarat earthquake and people there looked fairly prosperous, in sharp contrast to the pictures coming from Orrissa after flood disaster at about the same time.

Dost-Mitttar....calling Modi a mass-murderer is only your personal opinion. I dont think any court in the country has convicted him of any known crime. So in the eyes of the law , you yourself are as much of a mass murderer as Modi.

Re: # 9

Gujju,

Gujjus were an enterprising race long before Narendra Modi and will continue to prosper in business long after he is gone. Don`t make stupid comments.