The Violent Face of South Asia

Re: # 136
sadna, no police officer will ever tell you that a riot can be controlled by police officer. History has shown that only after calling ARMY the riots were controlled. The constable in police force carry danda as a weapon. While it your suspicion but I have personally asked a police officer in ahmedabad. It is not possible for 10-15 constables or police officer to control the crowd of 5000 armed with swords.
While your statement The complicity of Modi administration in handling of various incidents in the first 1-2 days does not get erased because Hindus later died in police firing.

From which source did you get this information. I would truly like to know the chronological list of death by police firing and it would be wonderful if it also breaks down the list in hindus and muslims.

The response of modi government after Akshardham killings shows that they have learned from godhra episode. Most of the killings during godhra riots happened in first 3-4 days. It usually does not take that long to deploy army but during godhra most of indian army was on the border on a standoff with pakistan. Rather than praising the effort of Modi goverment response of akshardham is used to an argument for government being complicit in godhra.

#141 Jang,
Hindisight is always 20/20. I have not seen anyone using TV as a mechanism to control the riots. In india 63 million family have TVs.

#144 Salim
I agree with your statement Collective punishment, especially of totally innocent victims, is both illegal and immoral.

The biggest fallacies of godhra riots is complete involvement of government of gujarat and especially Narendra Modi. Modi never uttered Newtons Third Law. The police commissioners were transferred after one month of riots and within a week a transfer was first day without any deaths. It took 3-4 days to deploy indian army because it was on a standoff with pakistan. Police arrested more than 33,000 hindus.
Most of the articles posting on internet about godhra riots are more of fiction than reality. The example of arundhati roy writing an article in outlook how ex-MP Jaffris daughter were burned and killed while the daughther and her family were staying in USofA.

Stuka # 156: `Sanatani Chutiye: The biggest sign of an idiot is the individual`s ability to appreciate only those thoughts that happen to coincide with his / her own`

I am so glad that you can appreciate Sanatani`s thoughts or do they coincide too much with yours? LOL)

Ranger or whatever other nick you have, I never cited the figures that Bhalla claims to refute. Please challenge the ones that I have:

-India ranked 127 on the Human Development Index (UN)
-India was the leading buyer of conventional weapons among developing nations in 2004 (US Congressional Report)
-The number of people faced with chronic hunger has risen in India by about 19 million
(FAO)
-The Indian govt. spends less than Rs. 5,000 crore on Integrated Child Development Services but Rs. 80,000 on defence
- Expenditure on health is less than 1% of GDP

Also, voters in India defeated the BJP mandate of India Shining. Of course, regional alliances, caste and communalism play a part and i`m not denying that. Their alliance in Tamil Nadu with AIADMK came as no surprise especially since Jayalalitha had called for a ban on conversions to Christianity, something that fits in well with the Sangh Parivar agenda.

I don`t think that competitiveness and a welfare state are mutually exclusive. Finland and other nordic economies are an example. They have apparently enhanced their competitiveness because of being a welfare state and not inspite of it. Of course, this does not mean that the same will work for India, and the right mix needs to be worked out.

einsteinwallah # 152,
Gujrat and 1984 were not ``reactionary mob violence``. I don`t know the details of Gujrat, but in 1984 it was all pre-planned. The pattern of violence against the Sikhs was the same throughout the country i.e., the use of tyres and kerosene. So many tons of kerosene and tyres could not have come spontaneously into the hands of ``reactionary mobs``. There was the Khalistan issue in Punjab and the Congresswaalas had something up their sleeves. That it was planned is now an established fact. It`s imperative that you know this.

Bongdongs,
Indeed, everything is a shade of grey. Glad you think some subsidies are necessary.

Khammy
But West Bengal, economically, is in no better shape today than it was when first it came to power.

The second ``it`` actually refers to the CPI(M), not Bengal. But don`t be surprised that an Indian journalist doesn`t meet your expectations in terms of, for lack of a better term, quality control.

Journalistic standards in India are appalling. The dumbing down of the print media has been on for quite a few years now, thanks mainly to the untiring efforts of the Times of India, which wears its mediocrity like a badge of honour these days. Serious newspapers like The Hindu are just not ``cool`` enough to make the grade (and admittedly quite boring).

ToI reporters use terms like ``reputed`` (when they mean reputable), ``preponed`` (when they mean advanced); they use, abuse and misuse commas, apostrophes and quotation marks to their hearts` content; and, most annoying of all, they have a tendency to create weak and obvious puns that completely distort the meaning of what they are trying to say (of course they always do this in innovative ways). An example- the day Sania Mirza won an important Grand Slam match and the Indian cricket team simultaneously beat Pakistan in a crunch game, the headline read ``Win-Win for India``. I must be the only reader who cringed when he saw that.

Of course all this ranting is pointless, becuz nwadays thx 2 SMS our vocab sux nyways..n thgs cd only gt wrse!!!!

Anyway, my point is that MVK is a respected journalist in India for his opinions and the clarity of thought with which he expresses them, not for any particular writing skills he possesses. And this phenomoneon isn`t all that uncommon.

Sanatani Chutiye: The biggest sign of an idiot is the individual`s ability to appreciate only those thoughts that happen to coincide with his / her own. You are one othose morons who live in the echo chamber of similar opinions and would not know or appreciate an original thought if it came and bit you in the ass. So shove your ``psec agenda`` and other garbage up your aforementioned behind and keep it there.

salim chauhan...
whatever...but you are sick...live with it...;)

#153, Kamquat, {``salim ``flip-flop`` chauhan...
i don`t give a damn what indians do to indians...be they muslim, hindoo or sikhs...it`s their goddamned internal affair and i don`t believe in crocodile tears.``}

You have a point there. Maybe, we should all think that the earthquakes killing over 100K Pakis were God`s will and leave it at that.

What you call ``flip flop`` is actually my defiance against being forced to tow the line either as a jingoist Paki, a fanatic Muslim, or an ``Indians can do no wrong`` fool. It is hard for a dogmatic dummy like you to comprehend. Unlike crcket and football, one cannot continue to root for the same side regardless of ethics, morality, and objectivity.

One day, when your eyes and ears are as wide open as your other cavities, you will learn the difference.

salim ``flip-flop`` chauhan...
i don`t give a damn what indians do to indians...be they muslim, hindoo or sikhs...it`s their goddamned internal affair and i don`t believe in crocodile tears shed by bastards like you who swears to dismember pakistan to unite with bharat mata and on the other hand crying copius tears on the gujrati muslims killed by the same rakshaks of bharat mata...;)



ps:as for the serious stuff, you can shove it down your throat...i haven`t seen any changes in the world despite all the oratory on chowk since 1998...

Re: # 144

I am not trying to justify anything. In 1984 it was Indira Gandhi murder by one of her sikh guards had caused the reaction of riots. You should learn to accept such objective facts.

Afterwards KPS Gill caused many more deaths which would properly qualify the characterization of cold blooded murder. Do you know about those murders? Those murders were comparable to holocaust killings. Holocaust killings cannot be compared to reactionary mob violence.

``Collective punishment blah blah``

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

Continued killings of ethnic Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh right from independence onward is going to induce some Indians to adopt a tit for tat attitude which finds easy vent during times like 1984, 1993, 2002 et al. Learn to accept it.

#150, Khamkhwa,
This is a serious discussion. Please take your childish nonsense to Unplugged where you shine as an instigator of petty altercations. Also, please do not attempt to shed your crocodile tears for Gujarati Muslims. If you had any real concern for the suffering of Muslims, you would support the repatriation of Pakis (and Muslim Pakis at that) stranded in Bangladesh. Paki Muslims, such as yourself, use Gujarat and other riots in India as a pretext to perform your macarbre dance around India`s one glaring weakness. Don`t think for a minute that you, and other Pakis of your perfidious character, are making any points with Indian Muslims or against India in general. Pehlay apni ghalaazat saaf karo, phir humsayey ki taraf dekho. Khabees.

[Like you, I too wish India success in continuing and enhancing its significant growth.]

abay...no one trusts you with your flip-flops anymore... therefore, do what you do best...terrorise chowk women ...;)

#147, Ranjit mere bhai,
Thank you for distinguishing economic and infrastructure progress from the good old ``they deserved what they got`` agenda of the BJP. Like you, I too wish India success in continuing and enhancing its significant growth. The results of the national elections that threw BJP out of power relfected the true feelings of most Indians. Hopefully, the BJP and even Mr. Modi can learn from their mistakes and India can continue to move forward without these damaging U-turns.

Ranger #105 {:... , then it is in people of India`s interest that mass killings of muslims takes place in every state in the country....``}

If the stupid ones among them think like that what must the smart ones be thinking?

Salim bhai,

What Modi did in Gujarat was absolutely wrong. Killing thousands of innocent people by controlling the government machinery was reprehensible. Most Indians do not support such behavior and I suspect the BJP lost power nationally because of that incident. People in India want fast, rapid economic growth and become rich. They want to enjoy the good life. They do not want to waste time with destructive religious BS. Even the Biharis have wisened up and joined this bandwagon, as the recent elections show.

As long as the BJP focuses on delivering what Indians want, it will win. If it focuses on useless things like Rath Yatras, it will lose. Some of the projects that BJP started like the golden quadrilateral of superhighways joining the 4 major cities are truly revolutionary ideas. If it can ever get back to that sort of focus, it will win power in Delhi.

I like Manmohan Singh as well. He seems to be doing a good job but he is being held back by our bong commies. The commies keep putting the brakes on any good ideas he has for economic liberalization. Nevertheless, he has accomplished a lot. However, if he could get rid of the goddamn commies, India can have a 10% growth rate.

Simi : `` No vague arguments of Bhalla are going to make me change my views. ``

What is so vague about what Mr.Surjeet Bhalla , the famous economist says in the below article ? He ruthlessly and brilliant exposes the flawed lagoc , lies and the manipulation of facts done by `the povertarians` , or leftists like yourself whose agenda is to keep India in a state of perpetual poverty.

>>

Journalists: Are you trustworthy?

Surjit S Bhalla | BS | October 15, 2005 | 12:53 IST

Two Indian institutions have withstood the test of time and emerged, time and again, as saviours of India - the Supreme Court and the Press. Now both are under attack.

The Supreme Court for its highly illogical (illegal?) decision that the politically motivated dissolving of the Bihar assembly was unconstitutional (so far so good), but that the consequences of this anti-constitutional act were okay, especially given the ``political realities`` (so far, terrible). I am not a lawyer, but how does one challenge a flawed Supreme Court ruling?

The media also has been under some criticism, especially after a leak about the Prime Minister having a meeting regarding the falling stock market turned out to be a false leak. There is talk of whether there should be a regulatory mechanism set up to force journalists to be honest.

I think this advocacy is a non-starter - the consumer is the one who ultimately will correct the imbalances and punish the guilty. How can a regulator decide what is intentionally false, and what is the result of pure ignorance?

P Sainath, an award-winning rural affairs writer for his book, `Everyone Loves a Good Drought`, has just published an article entitled ``Lost the Compass?`` (Outlook, October 17, 2005). In this article, Sainath is very critical of the role of the media, especially its role in ignoring the real India, the aam aurat.

He laments, ``Rural India is a giant canvas that is begging the media to do a portrait, many portraits. But it has failed resoundingly``. He worries that rural suicides do not get as much media attention as celebrity suicides.

But the one ``woman bites dog fact`` of Sainath that grabs genuine attention is his startling and shocking claim that ``foodgrain available per Indian fell almost every year in the (economic) `reforms` period.

And by 2002-03, it was less than it had been at the time of the great Bengal famine (of 1943)``. This in your face journalistic fact is then highlighted as a blurb by the helpful editors.

The fact that the consumption of foodgrains is highly income inelastic - i.e. consumption of foodgrains increases very little with income, once an individual is sufficiently beyond starvation levels - is a well-known occurrence, at least since the time of 19th century German statistician Ernst Engel, and economists have ceased to study the problem of stagnation of cereal consumption with income growth.

This is a stylised fact, which, after centuries of growth among centuries of countries, has not been violated. Engels` law does not state that absolute per capita consumption declines with income growth, only that the rate of increase slows down.

An absolute decline of consumption does occur with many goods - these are called ``inferior`` goods, and foodgrains is just such an inferior good.

So Sainath`s point that foodgrain consumption declined in the 1990s would be consistent with the poor actually having higher incomes after the reforms! But his ``fact`` that per capita foodgrain consumption has actually declined to the average level prevailing in a famine year is a priori startling.

Actually not that startling, because Nobel prize winning economist Amartya Sen warned us that the Bengal famine was not due to a shortage of supply of foodgrains. Nevertheless, I do find Sainath`s claim as somewhat of a shocker.

Alas, none of Sainath`s two claims is anywhere near the truth. Per capita consumption (strictly speaking, availability) of foodgrains averaged 364 grams per capita per day in the 1950s, and 391, 398, 420, 441 and 419 in subsequent decades with the last number being for the period 2000 to 2003 (all data from the widely and easily available Government of India, 2004-05 Economic Survey, Table S-17).

Contrary to Sainath, per capita availability of foodgrains peaked in the decade of the reforms. What about the particular year Sainath mentions, 2002-03?� It turns out that in that year the availability was a high 457 grams a day!

These statistics would suggest that Sainath`s wild assertion about per capita consumption in 1943 is equally wildly off the mark. If he is right, it would mean that in 1951, per capita availability of� 334 grams a day was some 25 per cent lower than the famine year of 1943�surely, not possible. In 1941, the population of India was 383 million (inclusive of Pakistan and Bangladesh).

Total production of foodgrains was 48 million tonnes and 1.8 million tonnes of foodgrains were imported. This yields a per capita availability of 342 grams a day, lower by 3 per cent than a decade later, and lower by a third than Sainath`s very low 2002-03 levels.

This is the age of the journalists - they have more power and influence than ever before. Today, ideas spread more through journalism than through the academia. Policy makers listen to them, especially if the journalists` expertise corresponds to their ideology.

Populism pays and pays much more than hard-headed factual analysis. By keeping the guilt in check, it makes the Scotch of the elite go down that much better.

Ordinary folks do not have the knowledge, or the interest, or the time, to fact check the data spitted out by journalists. Unlike academics, journalists do not have to cite their sources - it takes too much space and affects the flow.

In return for this privilege, journalists have a responsibility to not betray the trust, or at least not to betray it so blatantly.�

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Also Simi , NDA did not get voted out because of any opposition to economic reforms or `India Shining`. They got voted out because of their imability to choose the right regional allies (for example , going along with AIADMK instead of DMK in Tamil Nadu cost them 35 seats) , and for failing to get the caste combinations right. That is how elections are won and lost in India. Silly leftist theories dont really count any more.

#106

`` However, that is misplaced targetting of the subsidies and does not take away the fact that they are needed.``

There are no absolutes in life, everythhing is a shade of grey. When I speak against subsidies (not just agricultural), I dont question that some subsidies are needed and are a component of the ideal policy mix.

But, as with everything in India its been transformed into an engine of political patronage with scant regard to what makes the best economic sense.