The Violent Face of South Asia

Re: # 222
samosa, heres the rest of the article : Josef Stalin`s repressive state killed some 14 million Russians, at a conservative estimate, while Mao Zedong`s Great Leap Forward and the subsequent Cultural Revolution is said to have caused some 40 million Chinese deaths. The Jews estimate that Hitler -- who many describe as an atheist -- though I have my doubts -- systematically killed over 6 million of their people. I put Hitler`s Holocaust in the first list of `religious` atrocities because it was aimed primarily against a particular religion.

Clearly the Stalin and the Chinese were nt killing on the basis of any religious ideology, while Hitler, as has been pointed out time and again, was in cohoots with the Pope of Vatican.

Let us be clear on this point that religion did not form the basis of violence in these said conflicts, (just as Saddams was an Iraqi more than mulsim)

parthaabjee
you were asking for the numbers on www for the number of people killed during cultural revolution in China.
Do visit the following url:
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/15ram.htm

Following is an excert from this article about your favourite mao and stalin.

Josef Stalin`s repressive state killed some 14 million Russians, at a conservative estimate, while Mao Zedong`s Great Leap Forward and the subsequent Cultural Revolution is said to have caused some 40 million Chinese deaths.

GT #220: No thanks for your patience. Clearly I do not know as much as you do about Modi, the cases in the courts or even the 1984 massacre of Sikhs to get a handle on things. When BJP accuses Congress goons of pre-planning the riots, it is partisan politics in my view.
One thing we can all agree on that India does not need Delhi or Godhra again.

Maoists are a different matter though. I do not agree with Mr. Kamath to spare them and wait for jobs and bank accounts. Let us make all Maoists into a big ladder and burn them; Ok, maybe one at a time.)

Re: # 213

mannyd

I have learned the following from my interaction with you:

1. We need to be patient with language. By clarifying meanings we may often end up agreeing even if initially one feels that this is not possible.

2. A lot of people will agree to provide Modi with a fair trial: those who feel he is guilty; those who feel he is not (and hence put a stop to the issue); those who are agnostic but feel that the issue should be put to rest one way or the other. The only people who would (I think) disagree would be those who are sure of his guilt.

If you want we can carry on this discussion or we can stop it.

Thanks for your patience.

Parthaab:LOL...Let`s make a Maoist into a ladder and then burn him.)))

Mannyd,

You are still not clear on why you hate communism. Amerikan propaganda has given communism a bad name. I d assume that could be the reason.

Parthaab #216: It is alright Parthaab. It is only temporary. You are only at your wits` end. You`ll recover soon enough if you invoke your Messiah Mao`s name often enough.

Mannyd,

You are still not clear on why you hate communism. Amerikan propaganda has given communism a bad name. I d assume that could be the reason.

Parthaab Sahib 207 and 210: Is that an echo in here, in here? Or are you playing the master baitor?
OK the answers are:
I am very clear about what I hate and why. Pretty good propaganda if Russians and Chinese believed Communism to be bad, besides myself. Your assumption is wrong.

One way to try witches according to Monty Python`s Holy grail:

``They pass a group of villagers who are dragging a beautiful YOUNG WOMAN dressed as a witch through the streets. They drag her to a strange house/ruin standing on a hill outside the village. A strange-looking knight stands outside, SIR BEDEVERE.

FIRST VILLAGER: We have found a witch. May we burn her?

ALL: A Witch! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch?

ALL: She looks like one. Yes, she does.

BEDEVERE: Bring her forward.

They bring her forward - a beautiful YOUNG GIRL (MISS ISLINGTON) dressed up as a witch.

WITCH: I am not a witch. I am not a witch.

BEDEVERE: But you are dressed as one.

WITCH: They dressed me up like this.

ALL: We didn`t, we didn`t!

WITCH: This is not my nose, It is a false one.

BEDEVERE takes her nose off.

BEDEVERE: Well?

FIRST VILLAGER: ... Well, we did do the nose.

BEDEVERE: The nose?

FIRST VILLAGER: And the hat. But she is a witch.

ALL: A witch, a witch, burn her!

BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this?

FIRST VILLAGER: Um ... Yes ... no ... a bit ... yes... she has got a wart.

BEDEVERE: Why do you think she is a witch?

SECOND VILLAGER: She turned me into a newt.

BEDEVERE: A newt?

SECOND VILLAGER: (After looking at himself for some time) I got better.

ALL: Burn her anyway.

BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.

ALL: There are? Tell us. What are they, wise Sir Bedevere?

BEDEVERE: Tell me ... what do you do with witches?
ALL: Burn them.
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
FOURTH VILLAGER: ... Wood?
BEDEVERE: So why do witches burn?
SECOND VILLAGER: (pianissimo) ... Because they`re made of wood...?
BEDEVERE: Good.
PEASANTS stir uneasily then come round to this conclusion.
ALL: I see. Yes, of course.
BEDEVERE: So how can we tell if she is made of wood?
FIRST VILLAGER: Make a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Ah ... but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
ALL: Ah. Yes, of course ... um ... err ...
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
ALL: No, no, It floats. Throw her in the pond Tie weights on her. To the pond.
BEDEVERE: Wait. Wait ... tell me, what also floats on water?
ALL: Bread? No, no, no. Apples .... gravy ... very small rocks ...
ARTHUR: A duck.
They all turn and look at ARTHUR. BEDEVERE looks up very impressed.
BEDEVERE: Exactly. So... logically ...
FIRST VILLAGER: (beginning to pick up the thread) If she ... weighs the same as a duck ... she`s made of wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore?
ALL: A witch! ... A duck! A duck! Fetch a duck.
FOURTH VILLAGER: Here is a duck, Sir Bedevere.
BEDEVERE: We shall use my largest scales.
He leads them a few yards to a very strange contraption indeed, made of wood and rope and leather. They put the GIRL in one pan and the duck in another. Each pan is supported by a wooden stave. BEDEVERE checks each pan then ... ARTHUR looks on with interest.

BEDEVERE: Remove the supports.

Two PEASANTS knock them away with sledge hammers. The GIRL and the duck swing slightly but balance perfectly.

ALL: A witch! A witch!

WITCH: It`s a fair cop.

All: Burn her! Burn her! Let`s make her into a ladder.``

LOL...Let`s make a Maoist into a ladder and then burn him.)))

#209: GT Sahib: Yes a fair trial for Modi is better than a wirchhunting mob in the press. Thanks for pointing out the two points anout the legal system in India, I do not think they are minor quibbles. Twelve non-lawyer type peers, who do not have preconceived idea about the accused`s guilt are always better than one wise judge. Imagine Judge Parthaab, such a wise and intellignet sage that he is no doubt, tryimg me for the crime of reading conter-revolutionary material. He would use a Rampuri Chaku himself and save the cost of a trial and a rope. `Beyond reasonable doubt` depends on the charges pressed against him. Anyhow we can talk about it when Parthaab sends in his article on Gujrat.

Re: # 210
parthaab, do you consider Chinese government as a Communist or Totalitarian & Authoritarian party?

simran, this is for you:

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=191913&n_date=20051215&cat=India

``Nearly matching the fertiliser industry estimates of additional requirements of Rs 6,000 crore, the Chemicals and Fertilizers Ministry has sought an additional fertiliser subsidy of around Rs 5,500 crore over the budgetary provision of Rs 16,253 crore for 2005-06.

The revised official estimates have overshot the budgetary assessment resulting in the subsidy bill crossing Rs 21,000 crore, Chemicals and Fertilisers Minister Ram Vilas Paswan told mediapersons here today.``

Mannyd,

You are still not clear on why you hate communism. Amerikan propaganda has given communism a bad name. I d assume that could be the reason.

Re: # 200

Mannyd,

OK so you agree that Modi should have a `fair` trial?

p.s. (1) In India you do not have juries; (2) Beyond reasonable doubt is not always the criterion, sometimes you have preponderance of evidence. Anyway (1) and (2) are quibbles.

207: Parthaab: Clarify it for me then please. Answer my questions in 200. Thanks.

Mannyd,

You are still not clear on why you hate communism. Amerikan propaganda has given communism a bad name. I d assume that could be the reason.

As far as this author is concerned, only religion seems to matter in the first two paragraphs and given that bias, I d assume he hates maoists for their difference in ideology too.

Religion begets hatred for a different ideology. And hate begets hate. An unending cycle.

#205, Mannyd {``There may be things we disagree on now or in the future, but it will not lower at least my opinion of you and many many other sensible Pakistani cyber-friends, young and old.``}

Mannyd,
Likewise. I have always enjoyed your friendly and positive outlook. Thanks for your wonderful support.
As for debates, it would be extremely boring if we all limited our discussions to how much we dislike cancer, murder, world hunger, and bad weather.

I acknowledge the similarities between Indians and Pakis and sincerely regret the decision for partition.

Salim #203: Thanks Chauhan Sahib. You yourself have been a civilizing influence on Chowk in no small measure. There may be things we disagree on now or in the future, but it will not lower at least my opinion of you and many many other sensible Pakistani cyber-friends, young and old.

#202 parthaab Bhai: I think I gave my reasons for being against Communism already, but we can go over those again if you can answer my questions and assumptions in #200, so that it does not become a dialog of the deaf.

I`ll answer your three new questions in #202, based on my beliefs and opinion.

``Dont democrats murder too? Was nt Hitler elected democratically? Just because extremely religious America hates the kommunists, why should you join the band wagon?``

1. If democrats murder, they should stand trial for murder. Murder should not be a political party`s platform and that is exactly what Mr. Kamath has said above against Maoists. He is advocating more jobs, not murder of Maoists.

2. Hitler was elected democratically, but once in power, he changed the constitutuion and refused to step down. Is that supposed to be an argument against democratic elections? He also was a vegetarian, painted pictures, liked classical music, brushed his teeth, made love to a blonde mistress and kept an alsatian dog as a pet. Because Hitler did all these things, are they automatically evil?

3. Americans spell Communists with a C, just like you. I think you are just trying to portray me as a hillbilly for no reason. I am an agnostic, but someone`s extreme religiosity is not a sin in my view, as long as I am left alone. You may find it very difficult to believe, but in the USA, I am free to jump on any bandwagon I like or stand by to watch the parade. No one is holding an AK47 to my head. DO you find that freedom of expression, association, religion or politics offensive and obscene? Will your Maoists friends allow that too? If not, that is one of the reasons for my being against tyrrany of Maoists.

Now please do clear up my assumptions and answer my questions in 200. Thanks.

I just want to commend all the participants here on this forum for their exemplary behavior while discussing such an emotional and divisive issue. There have been very few, if any, examples of profanity, vulgarity, disrespect for fellow humans, and intolerance. I am pleased to note that there are Indians, representing all shades of the political spectrum, who can articulate their point of view, while allowing others to disagree with them. Some even note the obvious logic present in their opponents` arguments. This is healthy and I applaud your civilized manner. Is it any wonder why democracy has taken deep roots in India while consistently being extinguished next door? The contrast in behavior on Chowk is so apparent and it all comes down to intolerance.

mannyd, I guess you hate maoists because of this : `...I am assuming Maoists are communists and against free markets and capitalism...`

You have nt figured why you are against communists.
Dont democrats murder too? Was nt Hitler elected democratically? Just because extremely religious America hates the kommunists, why should you join the band wagon?

Parthaab: Just to show you I am not asking for any special treatment for myself, you have my unstinted and unreserved support to fill your house with Mao`s little red books, read them day and night, buy a necklace of worry beads and chant `Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao` day and night.

All those goodies on one condition though. Promise me that you and your Maoist friends would not buy Ak47s and kill people, will stand in the next general elections and sell the voters on following you, because you guys found inner peace chanting `Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao, Mao`.

A guilty party can be `braught to justice` in an extrajudicial manner, strung up by a posse on the nearest tree, murdered in a covert operation, blown up by a wild eyed fanatic or burnt at the stake by a mob out to have a good time.

At a fair trial, there is an attempt to let the prosecution press charges at the accused, give him or his attorney a chance to select neutral peers, untainted by crowd hysteria and have the prosecution prove to these people beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty.

Parthaab 199: The name Mao mostly. If they changed their name to Parthaabists, I could live with that.) I also do not like their violence, refusal to obtain power through democratic elections and refusal to see that Mao`s land is not Maoist any more. Would you call China Maoist today? If not why are you forcing that ideology on India?

I am assuming Maoists are communists and against free markets and capitalism. If my assumption is wrong, please do correct me. Also do help me understand your concerns about right winging of journalism and bashing of Maoists. I looked at the article again, there is not a single occurance of the word `Muslim` anywhere.

So please leave `and muslims for good measure` out. There is no need to rake up communal fires to make your point, or has that become a standard operating procedure for left wingers?

Why is right wing journalism any worse than left wing journalism? Are you proposing a government agency that reviews, grades and labels journalism like the movie rating system to protect the public morality? There may be some reason to keep X rated material out of children`s hands, but Parthaab`s attempts to control what Mannyd wants to read is not acceptable to Mannyd, no matter how life threatening your concerns may be to you.

You gentlemen had a great time during the Stalin era, but those days of glory are gone for ever specially with the internet. I do not know or care who Arun shorie is, but why can he not ply his trade if there are paying customers to pay him? Whu are you kicking the poor guy in his stomach?

Now can you explain why Maoists are good and need your protection? Why do you like them so much? What is so sacrosanct about these sacred cows that they can not be bashed?

Yes you do care what my dad`s politics were, because you accused me of being ignorant and full of pure hate against left wing politics.

Mannyd,

You have failed utterly to point out what exactly you have against Maoists.

If you had cared to notice, I am concerned about right winging of journalism in India, as exemplified by the author who wrote the aticle bashing maoists ( and muslims for good measure).

I dont care if your dad voted for democrats or the extreme right wing.

Re: # 196

On a different note:

How is `brought to justice` different from `deserved a fair trial` ?

Re: # 196

Mannyd,

Right...

``I would have OJ, Modi, Jagga Daku, you or Parthaab have the same right to a fair trial. ``

Now we need to agree on what is a `fair trial`. Would you like to have a first shot at this?

GT #191: Yes I can believe you. The lack of labor unions in China should be quite visible to the left wingers, Maoists, Naxalites of India. On the witch hunt, see Monty Python`s trial of a witch and how the evidence is gathered and presented by the mob to burn her. It is hilarious, except to the witch.

GT #192: No the trials of these people can and do take place. See the British court trial of NeoNazi `Historian`, so feverishly supported and worshipped by the Islamist intelligentia on Chowk, where it was proven that the state did take part in the Genocide of millions of jews. Also see the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials and trial of Eichman in Israel. I do not know of Viashali (except its Nagarvadhu) too much, but the Hindu jurisprudence as reported by the Muslims would make you sick. It was a trial by heat and fire, still followed by some African tribes.
`Now you will say....well these guys should (or should have been) be brought to `proper` justice.....that is exactly what I am saying too.`

No, I will never say that. They all deserved a fair trial as well as Rajive, Indira or Modi.

Actually there was a case filed against Modi in the British court. It was thrown out for lack of evidence. I have developed a respect for the western justice system very slowly and can not let go of the anchor. Basically it lets many `guilty` people go scott free on technicalities, but makes sure that only the truly guilty get punished.

Unfortunately it still fails in many cases despite safeguards and innocent people get railroaded. I would rather be tried for a crime that way, than in Multan or Hazara any day and I would have OJ, Modi, Jagga Daku, you or Parthaab have the same right to a fair trial.

Re: # 193


Samosa,

Great question...and you got me here. But allow me to try....and help me along (also correct me). This is an appeal to all legal types in chowk. Let me just provide a start.

First problem. As far as I know a criminal case cannot be filed against the Gujrat govt. by an individual.....it has to be done by the govt. (see the problem here). So some kind of public interest case has to be (designed and) filed. How should it be done? I don`t know. That brings us to the second and third (potential) problems.

Second problem: Resources. It will require tremendous amount of money, time and dedication to formulate a proper (as opposed to a propogandist) case. How should this be done? Intelligent and practical people with good organizational skills will also be required.

Third problem: Political opposition. Potentially from every party from the BJP to the Congress to Jamait-whatever. Threats (and their implementation) of potential witnesses, interviewers, lawyers etc. especially if the case is to be unbiased (so no political patronage can be expected).

Much more...take the ball on your court and develop it further.

Re: # 186

Samosa,

I don`t know about this Rajeev fellow...but you are right about Arundhati. These `liberals` do more harm to the cause of liberalism than non-liberals.....they...well let me stop here.

# 191 GT
Why to give you a break? Just kidding.
But if you dont think its a witch hunt then just search google for ``Narendra Modi Newton Law`` without quotes and you will find tons of article stating he quoted Newtons third law. And after that tell me whether its a witch hunt or not.
I dont think the law should be different for different kind of people whether powerful or powerless. Nevertheless how should Gujarat government prove their innocence?

Re: # 191

Mannyd and samosa,

Let me try to expound on the ``give me a break`` bit in my post 191.......Hitler was never proven to be ``guilty`` by a `fair` court, Osama is innocent, so is the guy exchanged by the Indians to release the hijacked passengers in Kabul, the innocent Mussolini was just stringed up, Zia was innocent....Bhutto was not etc. etc....all by your language (or logic).

Now you will say....well these guys should (or should have been) be brought to `proper` justice.....that is exactly what I am saying too.

As far as the onus of the state is concerned.....get hold of the jurispudence system of ancient Vaishali (around Ashoka`s time).....an individual could appeal against the government twelve times....the govt. could not appeal even once! (Do not ask me for references, I forget....darn! maybe ylh can help?) And you (we) thought that individualism is a western concept........(As an aside: for materialism and rationality read sankya darshan).

Re: # 189

mannyd

Interesting that you mention strikes.....a friend of mine shifted his factory to mainland China because `there are no labor problems`. Labor is very regulated (I would say subjugated) in China. The irony is that unions are extremely strong in the US. Guess what...labor leaders fly first class and for ``wage bargaining`` these unions hire top notch consultants (who would also have say mutual funds as clients). Unions in the US are democratic and unlike in most countries get their members very good deals. I do not know about the efficacy of ``class struggle`` in modern times but good organization (labor or capital or both) kicks ass.

By the way I am not a great game theorist, though I actually do not mind if people think so. Nevertheless, given the powers of the state (and this is important), the onus is on Modi to prove that he (or I should have said his government) is not guilty.........witch hunt? give me a break!

Sorry for the double click in the last post. It does make me look very scholaraly though, almost like repeating parthaab stuck in a loop... LOL. It is a YOKE Parth!

Salim #185: I am glad the invisible thread is finally invisible.) Why can`t women be more like men? OOPS, Farzana ji, I meant some women, not all.

Parthaab Sahib #183: `Is it not Pure, undiluted hate for `them` with their different `ideologies` - as usual?`

Amazing mind reading capabilities you have sir! As usual? when, where? Is this the same uncritical thinking you use to condemn Modi, Kamath, BJP, Right wingers, regional press or whatever other demons are bothering you.

My father is a Democrat, but was a communist sympathiser in India. He is beginning to repeat himself these days and we listen dutifully to his views he held in 1939 when Trotski was killed. He is still far more coherent and convincing than you ever will be.

Pure undiluted hate for Maoism? No not at all. Almost pure, just slightly diluted pity for you, but that is about it.

I am a turncoat Democrat in USA, who voted Republican since after Carter. It is my feeling that Marxism and all its derivative `Isms` were flawed, because they go against the basic human nature. Communism is responsible for millions of deaths worldwide since the CZar was overthrown and has been an economic failure everywhere it was tried.

Just twenty years ago or so, quality control of refrigerator manufacturing in Communist China was forced by shooting QC managers with little success. Try to travel through brand new spanking capitalistic China now and you will find them as modern as any corner of the world. Mr. Kamath is a foaming Bolshevik in comparison to the Chinese right wingers. Tell me of a labor strike in Mao`s country that you can remember.

samosa #186: No the law never changed and it should not be changed either, otherwise what is the difference between Multan Panchayat and a court of law? It was the great game theorist GT, who said that, not me. I agree with your # 188. I find Parthaab`s partisan big-brotherly arguments very educational and amusing.

Salim #185: I am glad the invisible thread is finally invisible.) Why can`t women be more like men? OOPS, Farzana ji, I meant some women, not all.

Parthaab Sahib #183: `Is it not Pure, undiluted hate for `them` with their different `ideologies` - as usual?`

Amazing mind reading capabilities you have sir! As usual? when, where? Is this the same uncritical thinking you use to condemn Modi, Kamath, BJP, Right wingers, regional press or whatever other demons are bothering you.

My father is a Democrat, but was a communist sympathiser in India. He is beginning to repeat himself these days and we listen dutifully to his views he held in 1939 when Trotski was killed. He is still far more coherent and convincing than you ever will be.

Pure undiluted hate for Maoism? No not at all. Almost pure, just slightly diluted pity for you, but that is about it.

I am a turncoat Democrat in USA, who voted Republican since after Carter. It is my feeling that Marxism and all its derivative `Isms` were flawed, because they go against the basic human nature. Communism is responsible for millions of deaths worldwide since the CZar was overthrown and has been an economic failure everywhere it was tried.

Just twenty years ago or so, quality control of refrigerator manufacturing in Communist China was forced by shooting QC managers with little success. Try to travel through brand new spanking capitalistic China now and you will find them as modern as any corner of the world. Mr. Kamath is a foaming Bolshevik in comparison to the Chinese right wingers. Tell me of a labor strike in Mao`s country that you can remember.

samosa #186: No the law never changed and it should not be changed either, otherwise what is the difference between Multan Panchayat and a court of law? It was the great game theorist GT, who said that, not me. I agree with your # 188. I find Parthaab`s partisan big-brotherly arguments very educational and amusing.

Re: # 187
parthaab writes ``which is more secular than the regional`` .
when did secular became a relative term? What do you mean by media being secular. Does it mean that they still publish newspaper on religious holiday or they do not publish news about religion.
I think its a height of fascism to divide everything between secular and non-secular. Only government can be categorized as it has choice to base laws on religion or not but not entities likes companies, organization or media.

Samosa, these are not MY accusations, but those of Human Rights Watch and also well documented and reported in the national media ( which is more secular than the regional)

# 183 Its not just difference of ideology but the killings on daily basis. Obviously you cannot agree with all the existing ideology that does not mean that you start hating the people who follow that ideology if they follow their ideology in a peaceful way.

Regarding your accusation that reporters were deliberately attacked by police is again untrue. The april 7 incident occured at sabarmati ashram where medha patkar of narmada bachao andolan was coming. There are many gujaratis who oppose her and her view on narmada dam. They were protesting about that and while trying to control the crowd the police used force and the reporters also got hurt. Because of the complain gujarat government transferred police officer involved in incident.

#176 mannyd: when did the law changed from innocent until proven guilty to guilty until proven innocent.

If any over-zealous person reports lie just like karsevaks brought this on them self on AIR should obviously be removed if they do it without any proof. That was the reason the person was fired from AIR.

You idea reporter to be objective but I havent seen any from the so called secular media objectively reporting. I hope your standard of objectivity applies to rajeev chandrasekhran and arundhati in the same way as it applies to MV Kamat.

#181, Mannyd {``Salim Sahib 178 and 179: Your posts are balanced, free of emotional malice and not aimed at generating a partisan or Muslim mob. I agree with you that there should not be a repeat of those horrors.``}

Mannyd, my good friend,
I would be the last one to orchestrate a Muslim mob. If you noticed most of my enemies in the lynch mob from Chowk UP call themselves ``muslim.`` So much for partisanship. Let`s agree and hope that we do not see Gujarat repeated in our lifetimes.

As for BJP voters, I would be the last one to tell people how to vote. If BJP is democratically elected again, then one must acknowledge their popularity - just as GOP, Dubya, and Tony Blair and Labor. Heck, even Mushy won the referendum in Pakiland, but that`s another story - I don`t want to get into Sadman Houston`s stellar performance in his elections. Thanks for all your support on the ``invisibility thread.``

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-03.htm#P659_118122


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005969&channel=civic%20center

mannyd,

You are supporting the authors ranting against Maoism. But can you tell us why? Is it not Pure, undiluted hate for `them` with their different `ideologies` - as usual?

mannyd,

When a newspaper is marked as `rightwing`, people know what to expect. But when it is marked `secular` and people like the above author engage in a `secular` debate, that is damaging.

You ask `why`?

Because journalists and national debates do influence public opinion. When national newspapers are edited by BJP stalwarts ( for eg. Arun Shourie), how will that be objective? Of course, we all know that when Arun ran a campaign against the Congress (on Bofors), we all supported him, because we did not have an inkiling that he was in fact a BJPian.

Salim Sahib 178 and 179: Your posts are balanced, free of emotional malice and not aimed at generating a partisan or Muslim mob. I agree with you that there should not be a repeat of those horrors

There are millions of BJP voters in India. To somehow think that rhey can all be shamed into stop voting that way is naive.
Mr. kamath did not propose any program to kill or maim Muslims above.

He is writing against communism, Naxalites, Maoism.

I have seen very little defence of those ideas except by Simran, who has proposed government subsidies for the poor and farmers.

Parthaab: My point is that you are failing to make any point.
`This is more harmful to the society than being actually extreme right wing.`
Why and how?
Shuld not the reader decide his/her reding material rather than a self appointed big brother of the society?

After 179 posts, I can see why Mr. Kamath Chose not to write about Gujrat above. Since you know so much about it and want to try Modi on a chat board in absentia, write an article. Start with the declaration that you are not a right-winger and extremely good for the society.

Samosa #171,
There is little to be gained in trying to defend Modi`s actions (or inactions). Like Milosevich, there is too much circumstantial evidence that screams ``planned, orchestrated massacre.`` Anyway, the damage is done, lives have been lost, and Gujarat`s good name maligned for a long long time - the real issue is whether India is willing to do something to correct this avoidance of justice?

GT #172, I agree with your perception that I might be giving only lip service to the Gujarat massacres. With the passage of time and the emergence of more and more human suffering (Iraq, New Orleans, Afghanistan, tsunami, earthquakes, suicide bombers, Delhi victims of terrorism, Karachi/Srinagar/BD victims of terrorism, etc) one does seem to reach a level of outrage fatigue. In principle, I agree with you that Modi is at least guilty of not protecting the lives and property of Gujarat residents, possibly because they happened to be Muslim. At worst, he might even be a conspirator in a mini-genocide perpetrated by extremist to whom he is a hero. I see parallels with the Milosevich case.

#176,

Mannyd, The above author was editor for three years (like Arun Shourie, or the present India Today) of a so called `secular` and popular Indian weekly. In those days, no one knew who was the editor or his right wing views. This is more harmful to the society than being actually extreme right wing.

What is your point?



http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-03.htm#P659_118122


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005969&channel=civic%20center

Gt 172: The onus is on Modi to prove he is innocent. It seems like a witch hunt, if there was ever one.

Parthaab: 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 173, 174, 175: Can you please provide a four line summary of the above posts to support your following statement:

`because the present author is a right wing journalist posing as a `secular, democratic`).`

I do not see anywhere in the article that he is `posing as a `secular`, `democratic`` and even if he did, so what? Looks like you have taken upon yourself to annihilate all journalists, who are not secular and democratic in your eyes.

Man, you are on fire worse than that in the infamous train at Godhra.

Attacks on the Media
The national media has also come under verbal and physical attack for its coverage of the Gujarat violence. Gujarat Chief Minister Modi has accused the media of exaggerating the extent of violence, and for provoking the violence by naming the religion of the victims.138 Modi also objected to All India Radio (AIR) coverage of the Godhra attack, specifically reports that mentioned that the trouble in Godhra began after kar sevaks (Hindu activists) refused to pay for the tea they consumed from Muslim tea vendors. Union Information and Broadcasting Minister Sushma Swaraj ``gave a dressing down to the top brass of AIR,`` reportedly at Modi`s behest, though no action was taken against anyone.139

According to the Paris-based Reporters Sans Frontières (RSF), some twenty journalists and media workers were attacked by the police on April 7, 2002, in Gandhi Ashram, Ahmedabad while two peace demonstrations were disrupted by members of the Gujarat Yuva Morcha, a youth section of the BJP. A cameraman for the private television station NDTV was told by a deputy police superintendent to stop filming. When he asked why, he was struck on the head and later was admitted to the hospital`s intensive care unit. Witnesses say police then attacked the journalists, seriously injuring several others.140 RSF adds that a journalist for the Asian Age was beaten up by the Gujarat police while interviewing Muslim women who had complained of police atrocities.141

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-03.htm#P659_118122


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005969&channel=civic%20center

#169,

Let us stick to this statement of yours (because the present author is a right wing journalist posing as a `secular, democratic`).

`Accusations on Gujarati Media mere accusations for not toing lies of English Media. `

1. The Press Council, which I have personally no affinity for, clearly reprimanded the local press, because these few `reports` ( different ones over different days) were the CAUSE of these atrocities on our fellow countrymen.

2. The reports on these papers that I quoted appear contradictory to you, but these are different papers and on different days. Imagine - would YOU allow these reports if it were against HINDUS?

Re: # 170


Salim,

I think I share your pain, but you seem to be giving too much credence to logic based on extremely narrow assumptions. Hence, I feel (and I may be wrong) that you are simply providing lip service.

A (secular and democratic) state cannot be given the benifit of doubt because the army was elsewhere. First, the `riots` happened much after Godhra...couldn`t the govt. anticipate problems? Why were the dead bodies allowed to be `displayed`? Second, has the govt. been pro-active in bringing the murderers to justice? If so has this guy Modi gone around proudly proclaiming how he has brought the killers to court? If not, then why not? The Gujrat `riot` is a shame and will always be a shame (and this is to put it extremely mildly). The onus is not on us to prove that Modi is guilty. Given the power of the state, the onus is on Modi to prove that he is not guilty.

Re: # 170
So the riots were organized with gujarat states co-operation. Probably you will also believe that Godhra killings were organized also. If that is the case then its best for India to know who would be willing to burn 59 hindus alive and what were their plans.
My only qualm is that by pointing fingers to BJP maybe the real culprit will be let loose but then anyway thats what happens in the Indian Judicial System. We havent seen the justice of 1984 riots. Neither we will see the justice onf 1992 riots and same is going to be 2002 riots. I would give Modi government benefit of doubt unless proven otherwise.

Rajiv Chandrasekhran article in washington post a lie.
Arundhati Roys article in outlook a lie.
TOI article about Modis utterance of Newtons Third Law a lie.
Accusations on Gujarati Media mere accusations for not toing lies of English Media.
Teesta Setalvad accused by Zahira Sheikh for forcing her to sign papers.
Deployment of army was late because of standoff with pakistan.
Army given shoot at sigh orders as soon as they were brought in.
Police commissioner were suffled nearly a month after Riots.
Police arrested 40,000+ people
``Miya`` is a very common way of addressing a muslim by gujarati. i.e. what modi did when he talked about ``Miya Musharaaf``

Consider following list of people (suspects) implicated for godhra
Mehmud Hussain Kalota, convener of the Congress district minority cell and president of the Godhra municipality
Salim Abdul Ghaffar Sheikh, president of the Panchmahal Youth Congress
Abdul Rehman Abdul Majid Ghantia, a known Congress worker
Farroukh Bhana, secretary of the district Congress committee
Haji Bilal, a known Congress worker

Still no one is willing to give ideas on what else modi should have done (except using tv to control the riot. courtesy jang)

Samosa, #169
Whether karsevaks, fanatics, or just plain passengers, no one deserves to die a death by violence, having a train set on fire. That in itself was a crime and a thorough investigation, followed by arrests and trials of the guilty people, and appropirate punishments within the law should have taken place. Instead, a massive organized ``riot`` resulted, with obvious state cooperation, that overshadowed the horrible massacre of the innocent passengers in Godhra. I will continue to believe that there are many many Hindus, even some Gujjus, who don`t approve of the behavior of the Gujarat state government. I am one Muslim who was very upset at the first news of the mass burnings of Hindu pilgrims. At that time, I thought it wa a senseless and criminal murderous act with such a huge loss of life. Little did I know that there was more to come.

Re: # 166
Parthaab before you copy & paste article read them carefully:
Rajiv Chandrasekaran reporting in washington post on march 6th was based on news he read on www.ummahnews.com. This article quotes that the hindus burned in godhra brought it on themselves. Accordingly to that article anyone returning from ayodhya is a fanatic.
One reporter is quoting other reporter for his article. Very few articles were reported by people who physically visited godhra.
You will find tons of articles on web that quotes modi uttered newtons third law. Even the one posted by you. Modi never uttered that and anyone quoting that is a liar.

Press Council of Indias statement was not meant only from gujarati newspaper but they applied both english electronic and print media as riots were telecasted in real time.

About the sandesh newspaper you yourself are contradicting by posting articles that quote the same news article of sandesh but one says 2 women were raped while other says 8-10 and third one says 16.
Gujarat Samachar front page on Feb 28th quotes:
1.] 60 People burned alive.
2.] Godhra riots. Curfew ordered.
3.] Band ordered to oppose killing of karsevaks.
There is nothing more pathetic then relying on lies to get your point across.
Questions for you
Did 59 hindus deserved to be burned alive in godhra? I am asking these question because you are quoting articles that say that. I would like to know how much do you believe in those articles.

This is a good oppurtunity to examine the role played by the media in riots like in Gujarat. With authors such as the above one ( who is extreme right wing, going by the first couple of paragraphs), being editors of `secular` media, one can only imagine the plight of neutrality in the media in India today. Of particular interest is the fact that none of the local Gujarati media which incited to rioting has been called to account.

The Press Council was forced to issue a strong statement on the role of the media. On 3rd April, Justice K. Jayachandra Reddy, Chairman, was sharply critical of the media noting “with anguish that a large number of newspapers and news channels in the country and, in particular a large section of the print and electronic media in Gujarat has, instead of alleviating communal unrest, played an ignoble role in inciting communal passions leading to large scale rioting, arson and pillage in the state concerned.”

Initial reports on February 27 presented the incident as a pre-planned Muslim mob attack on the Sabarmati Express train against ``innocent`` Hindu activists who had begun traveling from the city of Ayodhya. However, as the facts began to trickle out, a different picture has emerged.

While it is true that many of the passengers were women and children, others were militant Hindu activists who were involved in various forms of hooliganism. From the time these activists boarded the train on February 25 in Ayodhya until they reached Godhra on February 27, they unleashed a wave of mischief, terror and fear on their passengers, some of whom were also Muslim.

Rajiv Chandrasekaran, reporting in the March 6, 2002 edition of the Washington Post, details some of the ``hooliganism`` that took place: the militant activists exposed themselves to other passengers, pulled headscarves off Muslim women on the train, evicted a family of four in the middle of the night for refusing to join in chants glorifying the Hindu god Ram and refused to pay for tea and snacks they consumed at each train station.

These details are corroborated by eyewitness accounts. One of these comes from a group led by a few members of the Indian parliament who are trying to get the facts straight about the issue. It is headed by Dr. Amar Singh, a member of parliament from Samajwadi Party, who spoke with two of the Hindu victims of the train-burning incident in Godhra. They revealed that, ``all along the journey these Ramsevaks (the Hindu militants) were behaving like Gundas (thugs). They wouldn`t pay for what they had bought from the vendors. On stations they would chant anti-Muslim rhymes and slogans, insulting Muslim Holy places. There was teasing as well of both fellow passengers and women on the platforms.`` This fact-finding delegation, comprised of Rajbabbar (M.P. Samajwadi), Shabana Azmi (M.P.) and Aziz Burni (Editor of a leading Urdu news paper, Rashtriya Sahara), was one of the first groups to arrive in the strife-torn area. They visited the hospital and there they found these two victims (from a Hindu family) of the Godhra incident.

By the time the train reached Godhra, vendors at the town`s station had already heard about the activists` antics and were prepared not to be victimized. Events played out as expected. ``When the train reached Godhra, they behaved with the same bad manners. They refused to pay one tea vendor and even after beating him up, they threw him off the train,`` noted the Hindu eyewitnesses.

But in response to this behavior, the Hindu militants did not find passive tolerance. Instead, a number of young Muslims got on the train as it was pulling out of the station and pulled the emergency brake half a mile away from Godhra`s station, right in the midst of a Muslim neighborhood. The fight began with rock throwing from both sides. The compartment carrying the militants was found stockpiled with stones.


While the stone-throwing was going on, apparently some Muslims threw a burning mattress below the compartment of these militants. But the fire spread quickly, not allowing the passengers to run since the compartment was filled with kerosene and cooking gas carried by the passengers.


The above description is based upon several reports in the Indian press.

The Gujarati daily Sandesh, for instance, reported on March 1st that two Hindu women had been abducted from the train by Muslims, gangraped, mutilated with their breasts cut off, then killed with their bodies dumped in Kalol near Godhra. It also reported rumours of a third body being found. [See Box 4]. The police investigated the story, searched the village and found the story baseless. But the publication of such baseless stories in the press inflamed public opinion. Sandesh has been held by most commentators to be a major offender.



Such inflammatory stories were not new. Three years earlier such stories had appeared during the anti-Christian violence in the tribal-dominated Dangs district, of Gujarat. There has been therefore, a long standing tendency in sections of the Gujarati language press to publish communally inflammatory reports. Such reports are actionable. Under the law of the land such reportage that causes animosity between communities is a criminal offence. Despite such provisions in the law, no action was taken. While the State government did ban some local TV channels, it took no action against newspapers like Sandesh. In this backdrop, the sensationalist and inflammatory reporting after the Godhra incident, with its gory consequences, was only to be expected. The Press Council was forced to issue a strong statement on the role of the media. On 3rd April, Justice K. Jayachandra Reddy, Chairman, was sharply critical of the media noting “with anguish that a large number of newspapers and news channels in the country and, in particular a large section of the print and electronic media in Gujarat has, instead of alleviating communal unrest, played an ignoble role in inciting communal passions leading to large scale rioting, arson and pillage in the state concerned.” He warned the erring media of action under Section 295-A of the Indian Penal Code and allied provisions.




The centrality accorded to Godhra by influential sections of the media only echoed statements at the highest level of Government. Chief Minister Modi repeatedly referred to the communal violence that followed as a “reaction” and likened it to Newton’s third law of dynamics. The fact that the Chief Minister immediately branded the event as ISI and Pakistani-inspired, followed by Union Home Minister Advani, in the absence of any evidence or inquiry, further inflamed the situation.

samosa,

#163, typical BJP denial of Gujarat riots, which is even more shameless and pathetic than accepting guilt.

http://www.msu.edu/~swamyraj/guj/survivorsspeak.htm


NO ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN YET AGAINST THESE NEWSPAPERS FOR INCITING MOB VIOLENCE


Excerpts from two of the largest circulation vernacular Gujarati daily newspapers.

Sandesh (Published from Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat, Rajkot, and Bhavnagar).

Gujarat Samachar (published from Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat, Rajkot and Mumbai).



Sandesh, 28-2-02, Page 1. Story: Heading – ‘Religious fanatics kidnapped some 10-15 Hindu women by snatching them from Railway Coach. (2) Ladies ran away to save their lives and miscreants catch them’.



‘Along with Karsevaks of Sabarmati Express, children and ladies were massacred and fanatic miscreants dragged away some 10-15 ladies from the compartments which has made the position of Godhra very tense. Talks of massacre and kidnapping of Hindu young ladies created tension in Godhra town. The survivors of the massacre confirmed this incident. Police are not sure about who were the ladies and about the truth of this incident. It cannot be denied that young ladies ran away to save their lives and might have been caught by the miscreants. The in-charge of Karsevaks Kaushik Patel made allegation about the kidnapping of young ladies who have still not been found. Although police authority has not confirmed this but discussion of this incident made the position tense in Godhra city.’



Sandesh, 28-2-02 page 16 Story: Heading – ‘8-10 ladies dragged away in slums –helpless women were struggling to escape from the grip of Saitans. Report by an eye witness of Bapunagar ‘ — repetition of same story.



Sandesh, 1-3-02 Page16 Story continued page 4 Headings’ (1) Two distorted dead bodies of the women, from those women who were kidnapped from Sabarmati Express, found (2) Breasts of both the women were cut’



The news that distorted dead bodies of two kidnapped ladies dragged away from the coach of Sabarmati Express train found near lake of Kalol has not only in Panchmahal district but all over Gujarat inflamed the violence. In a heinous act the breasts of the dead bodies were cut. On seeing the dead bodies it can be known that they were raped many times perhaps innumerable times and they were killed during that time. The keeping of mum by police has added fuel in the burning position. As per talks during the night one more dead body of a lady has been found. Many pilgrims of Sabarmati Express confirmed this. In a very sensitive incident before police can enquire into the matter, dead bodies of the ladies were found. In a very short time this talk spread very quickly in Kalol town and many people gathered to see the dead bodies. According to unofficial news the faces of these ladies were so much distorted that they cannot be known. Seeing the distorted dead bodies and cut breasts panic spread among people and they were very angry. The police is not ready to give any type of information. On the other hand the dead body of third lady has added fuel to the burning position.


Gujarat Samachar – Page 1 Story ‘wicked villains of this mob kidnapped some ten women (behno) whose whereabouts are not yet known


Gujarat Samachar - Page 10- Story heading ‘Some men were saying take all the girls’

# 161
How can you say that Gujarat Government was a bystander during the gujarat riots?
Curfew was ordered on Feb 28th in Ahmedabad & Surat.
Army Flag Marched on March 1st.
Police arrested 40,000+ people.
Shoot at Sight order were given on March 1st.
Lets talk about Baroda i.e. Best Bakery Case. The population of Baroda is nearly 1.6 million. And the strength of Baroda police force is 2000. Out of which more than half are hawaldar i.e. all they carry is stick.
Godhra were not the first time that few rotten apples in police force abetting the rioters. It has happened before in 1992.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but What MORE should the gujarat government have done? There is not a single case registered against Narendra Modi and still people are asking for his head.

#162
I hightly doubt you know how to read gujarati. How did local gujarati media incited riots? I can give you a wonderful example of english media (TOI & Outlook) and leftist (commie) author writing lies in their newspaper. Neither have they been held accountable for spreading lies.
This just shows perpetual hatred of anyone or anything that is Guajrati.

This is a good oppurtunity to examine the role played by the media in riots like in Gujarat. With authors such as the above one ( who is extreme right wing, going by the first couple of paragraphs), being editors of `secular` media, one can only imagine the plight of neutrality in the media in India today. Of particular interest is the fact that none of the local Gujarati media which incited to rioting has been called to account.

Samosa #160,
My friend, thanks for agreeing that collective punishment is wrong. Also, the complicity of the state government is the main issue behind Mr. Modi`s perception as more than just an ``innocent`` bystander. He was the CM of Gujuarat, the chief executive and should have reacted with much more resolve.
Thanks,

Re: # 136
sadna, no police officer will ever tell you that a riot can be controlled by police officer. History has shown that only after calling ARMY the riots were controlled. The constable in police force carry danda as a weapon. While it your suspicion but I have personally asked a police officer in ahmedabad. It is not possible for 10-15 constables or police officer to control the crowd of 5000 armed with swords.
While your statement The complicity of Modi administration in handling of various incidents in the first 1-2 days does not get erased because Hindus later died in police firing.

From which source did you get this information. I would truly like to know the chronological list of death by police firing and it would be wonderful if it also breaks down the list in hindus and muslims.

The response of modi government after Akshardham killings shows that they have learned from godhra episode. Most of the killings during godhra riots happened in first 3-4 days. It usually does not take that long to deploy army but during godhra most of indian army was on the border on a standoff with pakistan. Rather than praising the effort of Modi goverment response of akshardham is used to an argument for government being complicit in godhra.

#141 Jang,
Hindisight is always 20/20. I have not seen anyone using TV as a mechanism to control the riots. In india 63 million family have TVs.

#144 Salim
I agree with your statement Collective punishment, especially of totally innocent victims, is both illegal and immoral.

The biggest fallacies of godhra riots is complete involvement of government of gujarat and especially Narendra Modi. Modi never uttered Newtons Third Law. The police commissioners were transferred after one month of riots and within a week a transfer was first day without any deaths. It took 3-4 days to deploy indian army because it was on a standoff with pakistan. Police arrested more than 33,000 hindus.
Most of the articles posting on internet about godhra riots are more of fiction than reality. The example of arundhati roy writing an article in outlook how ex-MP Jaffris daughter were burned and killed while the daughther and her family were staying in USofA.

Stuka # 156: `Sanatani Chutiye: The biggest sign of an idiot is the individual`s ability to appreciate only those thoughts that happen to coincide with his / her own`

I am so glad that you can appreciate Sanatani`s thoughts or do they coincide too much with yours? LOL)

Ranger or whatever other nick you have, I never cited the figures that Bhalla claims to refute. Please challenge the ones that I have:

-India ranked 127 on the Human Development Index (UN)
-India was the leading buyer of conventional weapons among developing nations in 2004 (US Congressional Report)
-The number of people faced with chronic hunger has risen in India by about 19 million
(FAO)
-The Indian govt. spends less than Rs. 5,000 crore on Integrated Child Development Services but Rs. 80,000 on defence
- Expenditure on health is less than 1% of GDP

Also, voters in India defeated the BJP mandate of India Shining. Of course, regional alliances, caste and communalism play a part and i`m not denying that. Their alliance in Tamil Nadu with AIADMK came as no surprise especially since Jayalalitha had called for a ban on conversions to Christianity, something that fits in well with the Sangh Parivar agenda.

I don`t think that competitiveness and a welfare state are mutually exclusive. Finland and other nordic economies are an example. They have apparently enhanced their competitiveness because of being a welfare state and not inspite of it. Of course, this does not mean that the same will work for India, and the right mix needs to be worked out.

einsteinwallah # 152,
Gujrat and 1984 were not ``reactionary mob violence``. I don`t know the details of Gujrat, but in 1984 it was all pre-planned. The pattern of violence against the Sikhs was the same throughout the country i.e., the use of tyres and kerosene. So many tons of kerosene and tyres could not have come spontaneously into the hands of ``reactionary mobs``. There was the Khalistan issue in Punjab and the Congresswaalas had something up their sleeves. That it was planned is now an established fact. It`s imperative that you know this.

Bongdongs,
Indeed, everything is a shade of grey. Glad you think some subsidies are necessary.

Khammy
But West Bengal, economically, is in no better shape today than it was when first it came to power.

The second ``it`` actually refers to the CPI(M), not Bengal. But don`t be surprised that an Indian journalist doesn`t meet your expectations in terms of, for lack of a better term, quality control.

Journalistic standards in India are appalling. The dumbing down of the print media has been on for quite a few years now, thanks mainly to the untiring efforts of the Times of India, which wears its mediocrity like a badge of honour these days. Serious newspapers like The Hindu are just not ``cool`` enough to make the grade (and admittedly quite boring).

ToI reporters use terms like ``reputed`` (when they mean reputable), ``preponed`` (when they mean advanced); they use, abuse and misuse commas, apostrophes and quotation marks to their hearts` content; and, most annoying of all, they have a tendency to create weak and obvious puns that completely distort the meaning of what they are trying to say (of course they always do this in innovative ways). An example- the day Sania Mirza won an important Grand Slam match and the Indian cricket team simultaneously beat Pakistan in a crunch game, the headline read ``Win-Win for India``. I must be the only reader who cringed when he saw that.

Of course all this ranting is pointless, becuz nwadays thx 2 SMS our vocab sux nyways..n thgs cd only gt wrse!!!!

Anyway, my point is that MVK is a respected journalist in India for his opinions and the clarity of thought with which he expresses them, not for any particular writing skills he possesses. And this phenomoneon isn`t all that uncommon.

Sanatani Chutiye: The biggest sign of an idiot is the individual`s ability to appreciate only those thoughts that happen to coincide with his / her own. You are one othose morons who live in the echo chamber of similar opinions and would not know or appreciate an original thought if it came and bit you in the ass. So shove your ``psec agenda`` and other garbage up your aforementioned behind and keep it there.

salim chauhan...
whatever...but you are sick...live with it...;)

#153, Kamquat, {``salim ``flip-flop`` chauhan...
i don`t give a damn what indians do to indians...be they muslim, hindoo or sikhs...it`s their goddamned internal affair and i don`t believe in crocodile tears.``}

You have a point there. Maybe, we should all think that the earthquakes killing over 100K Pakis were God`s will and leave it at that.

What you call ``flip flop`` is actually my defiance against being forced to tow the line either as a jingoist Paki, a fanatic Muslim, or an ``Indians can do no wrong`` fool. It is hard for a dogmatic dummy like you to comprehend. Unlike crcket and football, one cannot continue to root for the same side regardless of ethics, morality, and objectivity.

One day, when your eyes and ears are as wide open as your other cavities, you will learn the difference.

salim ``flip-flop`` chauhan...
i don`t give a damn what indians do to indians...be they muslim, hindoo or sikhs...it`s their goddamned internal affair and i don`t believe in crocodile tears shed by bastards like you who swears to dismember pakistan to unite with bharat mata and on the other hand crying copius tears on the gujrati muslims killed by the same rakshaks of bharat mata...;)



ps:as for the serious stuff, you can shove it down your throat...i haven`t seen any changes in the world despite all the oratory on chowk since 1998...

Re: # 144

I am not trying to justify anything. In 1984 it was Indira Gandhi murder by one of her sikh guards had caused the reaction of riots. You should learn to accept such objective facts.

Afterwards KPS Gill caused many more deaths which would properly qualify the characterization of cold blooded murder. Do you know about those murders? Those murders were comparable to holocaust killings. Holocaust killings cannot be compared to reactionary mob violence.

``Collective punishment blah blah``

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

Continued killings of ethnic Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh right from independence onward is going to induce some Indians to adopt a tit for tat attitude which finds easy vent during times like 1984, 1993, 2002 et al. Learn to accept it.

#150, Khamkhwa,
This is a serious discussion. Please take your childish nonsense to Unplugged where you shine as an instigator of petty altercations. Also, please do not attempt to shed your crocodile tears for Gujarati Muslims. If you had any real concern for the suffering of Muslims, you would support the repatriation of Pakis (and Muslim Pakis at that) stranded in Bangladesh. Paki Muslims, such as yourself, use Gujarat and other riots in India as a pretext to perform your macarbre dance around India`s one glaring weakness. Don`t think for a minute that you, and other Pakis of your perfidious character, are making any points with Indian Muslims or against India in general. Pehlay apni ghalaazat saaf karo, phir humsayey ki taraf dekho. Khabees.

[Like you, I too wish India success in continuing and enhancing its significant growth.]

abay...no one trusts you with your flip-flops anymore... therefore, do what you do best...terrorise chowk women ...;)

#147, Ranjit mere bhai,
Thank you for distinguishing economic and infrastructure progress from the good old ``they deserved what they got`` agenda of the BJP. Like you, I too wish India success in continuing and enhancing its significant growth. The results of the national elections that threw BJP out of power relfected the true feelings of most Indians. Hopefully, the BJP and even Mr. Modi can learn from their mistakes and India can continue to move forward without these damaging U-turns.

Ranger #105 {:... , then it is in people of India`s interest that mass killings of muslims takes place in every state in the country....``}

If the stupid ones among them think like that what must the smart ones be thinking?

Salim bhai,

What Modi did in Gujarat was absolutely wrong. Killing thousands of innocent people by controlling the government machinery was reprehensible. Most Indians do not support such behavior and I suspect the BJP lost power nationally because of that incident. People in India want fast, rapid economic growth and become rich. They want to enjoy the good life. They do not want to waste time with destructive religious BS. Even the Biharis have wisened up and joined this bandwagon, as the recent elections show.

As long as the BJP focuses on delivering what Indians want, it will win. If it focuses on useless things like Rath Yatras, it will lose. Some of the projects that BJP started like the golden quadrilateral of superhighways joining the 4 major cities are truly revolutionary ideas. If it can ever get back to that sort of focus, it will win power in Delhi.

I like Manmohan Singh as well. He seems to be doing a good job but he is being held back by our bong commies. The commies keep putting the brakes on any good ideas he has for economic liberalization. Nevertheless, he has accomplished a lot. However, if he could get rid of the goddamn commies, India can have a 10% growth rate.

Simi : `` No vague arguments of Bhalla are going to make me change my views. ``

What is so vague about what Mr.Surjeet Bhalla , the famous economist says in the below article ? He ruthlessly and brilliant exposes the flawed lagoc , lies and the manipulation of facts done by `the povertarians` , or leftists like yourself whose agenda is to keep India in a state of perpetual poverty.

>>

Journalists: Are you trustworthy?

Surjit S Bhalla | BS | October 15, 2005 | 12:53 IST

Two Indian institutions have withstood the test of time and emerged, time and again, as saviours of India - the Supreme Court and the Press. Now both are under attack.

The Supreme Court for its highly illogical (illegal?) decision that the politically motivated dissolving of the Bihar assembly was unconstitutional (so far so good), but that the consequences of this anti-constitutional act were okay, especially given the ``political realities`` (so far, terrible). I am not a lawyer, but how does one challenge a flawed Supreme Court ruling?

The media also has been under some criticism, especially after a leak about the Prime Minister having a meeting regarding the falling stock market turned out to be a false leak. There is talk of whether there should be a regulatory mechanism set up to force journalists to be honest.

I think this advocacy is a non-starter - the consumer is the one who ultimately will correct the imbalances and punish the guilty. How can a regulator decide what is intentionally false, and what is the result of pure ignorance?

P Sainath, an award-winning rural affairs writer for his book, `Everyone Loves a Good Drought`, has just published an article entitled ``Lost the Compass?`` (Outlook, October 17, 2005). In this article, Sainath is very critical of the role of the media, especially its role in ignoring the real India, the aam aurat.

He laments, ``Rural India is a giant canvas that is begging the media to do a portrait, many portraits. But it has failed resoundingly``. He worries that rural suicides do not get as much media attention as celebrity suicides.

But the one ``woman bites dog fact`` of Sainath that grabs genuine attention is his startling and shocking claim that ``foodgrain available per Indian fell almost every year in the (economic) `reforms` period.

And by 2002-03, it was less than it had been at the time of the great Bengal famine (of 1943)``. This in your face journalistic fact is then highlighted as a blurb by the helpful editors.

The fact that the consumption of foodgrains is highly income inelastic - i.e. consumption of foodgrains increases very little with income, once an individual is sufficiently beyond starvation levels - is a well-known occurrence, at least since the time of 19th century German statistician Ernst Engel, and economists have ceased to study the problem of stagnation of cereal consumption with income growth.

This is a stylised fact, which, after centuries of growth among centuries of countries, has not been violated. Engels` law does not state that absolute per capita consumption declines with income growth, only that the rate of increase slows down.

An absolute decline of consumption does occur with many goods - these are called ``inferior`` goods, and foodgrains is just such an inferior good.

So Sainath`s point that foodgrain consumption declined in the 1990s would be consistent with the poor actually having higher incomes after the reforms! But his ``fact`` that per capita foodgrain consumption has actually declined to the average level prevailing in a famine year is a priori startling.

Actually not that startling, because Nobel prize winning economist Amartya Sen warned us that the Bengal famine was not due to a shortage of supply of foodgrains. Nevertheless, I do find Sainath`s claim as somewhat of a shocker.

Alas, none of Sainath`s two claims is anywhere near the truth. Per capita consumption (strictly speaking, availability) of foodgrains averaged 364 grams per capita per day in the 1950s, and 391, 398, 420, 441 and 419 in subsequent decades with the last number being for the period 2000 to 2003 (all data from the widely and easily available Government of India, 2004-05 Economic Survey, Table S-17).

Contrary to Sainath, per capita availability of foodgrains peaked in the decade of the reforms. What about the particular year Sainath mentions, 2002-03?� It turns out that in that year the availability was a high 457 grams a day!

These statistics would suggest that Sainath`s wild assertion about per capita consumption in 1943 is equally wildly off the mark. If he is right, it would mean that in 1951, per capita availability of� 334 grams a day was some 25 per cent lower than the famine year of 1943�surely, not possible. In 1941, the population of India was 383 million (inclusive of Pakistan and Bangladesh).

Total production of foodgrains was 48 million tonnes and 1.8 million tonnes of foodgrains were imported. This yields a per capita availability of 342 grams a day, lower by 3 per cent than a decade later, and lower by a third than Sainath`s very low 2002-03 levels.

This is the age of the journalists - they have more power and influence than ever before. Today, ideas spread more through journalism than through the academia. Policy makers listen to them, especially if the journalists` expertise corresponds to their ideology.

Populism pays and pays much more than hard-headed factual analysis. By keeping the guilt in check, it makes the Scotch of the elite go down that much better.

Ordinary folks do not have the knowledge, or the interest, or the time, to fact check the data spitted out by journalists. Unlike academics, journalists do not have to cite their sources - it takes too much space and affects the flow.

In return for this privilege, journalists have a responsibility to not betray the trust, or at least not to betray it so blatantly.�

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Also Simi , NDA did not get voted out because of any opposition to economic reforms or `India Shining`. They got voted out because of their imability to choose the right regional allies (for example , going along with AIADMK instead of DMK in Tamil Nadu cost them 35 seats) , and for failing to get the caste combinations right. That is how elections are won and lost in India. Silly leftist theories dont really count any more.