The Violent Face of South Asia

#136, Sadna, {``But why when there were huge crowds gathered outside ex-MP Ehsan Jaffery`s house for many hours and he had been on the phone for 6 hours with the administration and police couldn`t his life and those of the women who had taken shelter in his building complex been saved? Did it have to do with the fact that he had made an anti-RSS speech during Modi`s by-election just a few weeks before. ``}

Sadna,
Thank you for your objectivity in reminding people that a CM of an Indian state can be held responsible for massacres conducted in his state. Indians slaughtered Indians in an Indian state while Indian police did not prevent the massacre of fellow Indians. Somewhere in all of this tragedy, Gujarat stops being relevant as a ``sovereign`` authority.

DM Sahib, #129 {``There is no good Modi, just someone who is good at what he does, ... He has never shown any remorse at the events of 2002, let alone done any ``prayshchit``. I..The Moral of the Story is: The Indian democracy better replace corrupt politicians with honest, efficient ones like Manmohan Singh, otherwise people like Modi would present a fatal attraction.``}

DM Sahbi,
Amen to that. I have really been impressed by Shri Dr. Manmohan Singh`s soft spoken manner. He gives the impression of a sincere, calm, and wise person - which I am very hopeful that he is. As for Mr. Modi, you are right. The overachieving CM of Gujarat has never shown any remorse - something that Indians, especially sincere Gujaratis, should insist from him.

Gujrat riots happened when the TV was available as a medium. Modi could have commandeered time on TV channels and made a plea for peace, while declaring a curfew. Its possible that the poople would have rioted inspite of that. It stupid to think that there would be no violence after news of Godhra spread. He decided to show to his voters what kind of a guy he was and his services were apreciated by the voters. These are plain ghastly facts.

Its however incorrect to compare Akshardham to Godhra. Akshardham is different, the fiyadeens were just a couple of imports. Godhra was seen as an internal communal issue, which needed a response. Akshardham did not need a local response (astani ka shola was the term used) since the fiyadeens were clearly seen as ferners, so there was no similar communal tension.

Same in Bombay, the riots irrupted (i was there) after Sena felt challanged after an infamous Radhabai Chawl incident. Sena does not like other people making panga in their backyard. The several other bum-blasts however were never felt as something which needed a riot.

1984, 1993, 2002 et al were all reaction. Holocaust was not a reaction. So one cannot compare Rajiv and Narendra to Adolf.

re:#126 by tahmed32 on December 10, 2005 7:40am PT
``kk #124: these indians are so clever they even fool themselves. :-)``
How about this?
Pakis are such hunks they are busy screwing themselves? :-)
Sridhar

re:#105 by Ranger
( , then it is in people of India`s interest that mass killings of muslims takes place in every state in the country....)
People like this guy make me feel India does not have much of a future. After all, Nazi Germany too made spectacular economic growth only to destroy itself in the end.
I hope such people are an exception rather than the norm
Sridhar

Violence in Gujarat *was* a reaction to Godhra incident. Period. And that is an objective view.

mannyd #134
I suspect any police officer will tell you(and I believe they have written about it) that a riot can be controlled if the police and administration want to. They do things like arrest known troublemakers and send a message, then they stage flag marches and clamp curfew.

It is when the administration winks at riots that policemen don`t make preventive arrests(because the troublemakers are linked to the ruling party), then don`t come out in adequate force and later in the prosecution or enquiry phase first refuse to allow FIRs to be filed, then refrain from doing a proper job of prosecution/identification of murderers and rapists once the FIRs are filed and meanwhile ruling party members open legal defence funds for those likely to be acccused. All the while the administration shows it has no stake in getting anyone guilty prosecuted or any govt servant punished for dereliction of duty.

(The victims are left to fend for themselves - those who insisted on calling all Indians Hindus and whole world a family in fancy shmancy Sanskrit suddenly start drawing distinctions between who is a Hindu Hindu victim and who is a Hindu nonHindu victim)

This happened in N.Delhi and it happened in Gujarat urban areas. Rural areas was prob.a different deal and required more time to act and more movement of forces. That might have been the really unplanned event(rioting in rural areas).

But why when there were huge crowds gathered outside ex-MP Ehsan Jaffery`s house for many hours and he had been on the phone for 6 hours with the administration and police couldn`t his life and those of the women who had taken shelter in his building complex been saved? Did it have to do with the fact that he had made an anti-RSS speech during Modi`s by-election just a few weeks before.

Gujarat has a population of 50 million . Many areas saw police firing. Many Hindus died in those police firings. The complicity of Modi administration in handling of various incidents in the first 1-2 days does not get erased because Hindus later died in police firing.

Re: # 136
sadna, no police officer will ever tell you that a riot can be controlled by police officer. History has shown that only after calling ARMY the riots were controlled. The constable in police force carry danda as a weapon. While it your suspicion but I have personally asked a police officer in ahmedabad. It is not possible for 10-15 constables or police officer to control the crowd of 5000 armed with swords.
While your statement The complicity of Modi administration in handling of various incidents in the first 1-2 days does not get erased because Hindus later died in police firing.

From which source did you get this information. I would truly like to know the chronological list of death by police firing and it would be wonderful if it also breaks down the list in hindus and muslims.

The response of modi government after Akshardham killings shows that they have learned from godhra episode. Most of the killings during godhra riots happened in first 3-4 days. It usually does not take that long to deploy army but during godhra most of indian army was on the border on a standoff with pakistan. Rather than praising the effort of Modi goverment response of akshardham is used to an argument for government being complicit in godhra.

#141 Jang,
Hindisight is always 20/20. I have not seen anyone using TV as a mechanism to control the riots. In india 63 million family have TVs.

#144 Salim
I agree with your statement Collective punishment, especially of totally innocent victims, is both illegal and immoral.

The biggest fallacies of godhra riots is complete involvement of government of gujarat and especially Narendra Modi. Modi never uttered Newtons Third Law. The police commissioners were transferred after one month of riots and within a week a transfer was first day without any deaths. It took 3-4 days to deploy indian army because it was on a standoff with pakistan. Police arrested more than 33,000 hindus.
Most of the articles posting on internet about godhra riots are more of fiction than reality. The example of arundhati roy writing an article in outlook how ex-MP Jaffris daughter were burned and killed while the daughther and her family were staying in USofA.

Ranger, I`m getting tired of having to say the same things over and over again. I think I`ve made my point and said what I had to say. No vague arguments of Bhalla are going to make me change my views.

I still believe the government has misplaced priorities; that the way forward in a country like India is not a brutal free market economy but a mixed one; that there is an agrarian crisis that needs badly to be addressed and so on and so forth. I stand by all that I`ve said in my earlier posts.

Ranger, I have my facts right. Infosys and Wipro are getting tax concessions and exemptions, both of which are forms of indirect subsidies. Brush up your economics. Besides as I`ve said before, we can`t do away with subsidies because if we do, poor farmers here will be (are already in fact) flooded with cheap produce from countries (such as USA and France) that continue to subsidise, causing further impoverishment.

The fact remains that inequality has gone up in the last decade and there is some evidence that this is interlinked with an increase in violence. You said infant mortality has gone up. Yes it has, but so marginally that even Bangladesh has overtaken us. The fact still remains that we spend less than 1% of GDP on health. That the government spends less than Rs. 5,000 crore on Integrated Child Development Schemes while defence gets more than Rs. 80,000 crores. That around 19 million people still face chronic hunger in the country.

I totally agree with you that there should be more decentralisation.

``Let the market rule, and watch poverty disappear`` You couldn`t be farther from the truth. In a complex unequal society like India, it has been established that there has been no trickle down effect. Therefore, we do need special safeguards and policies that help bring up the more dispossed sections of our society. You`re just spitting out that whole India Shining propoganda that was voted out essentially by rural India. The India that continues to be neglected.

Mannyd, I am an Indian citizen, living in India. My views on Khalistan, Pakistan or any other ``-stan`` for that matter have nothing to do with what I have said. I gave no ``predictions`` or ``threats`` about naxalites. I merely stated the facts.

I would`ve liked to be rude to you guys but it`s too tiresome and I was too amused by your statements.

Arjun #127: `Are you saying Modi couldn`t have stopped the rioting on day 1..like he did after Akshardham?`

You could say that I am questioning the logic. I am not sure I followed the Akshardham incident too closely. How many Hindus were burnt alive in akshardham? How many rioting Hindu mobs were formed on day1 of Akshardham? What were the casualty numbers due to police firing in the two incidents? In other words what did Modi do differently about Akshardham v/s Godhra? Was he leading the mobs while waving his Trishul after Godhra and he could not find it after Akshradham?

Please understand that I hate any mob, Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, but my understanding is that mob formation is highly non-linear, extremely unpredictable and cowardly to the hilt. That 274 Hindu rioters were speeded up to land in their next Yoni is a good thing and better than lengthy trials later on. Did the police disobey Modi`s explicit orders in these 274 cases or just maybe possibly there were no such alleged explicit orders to spare Hindu rioters?

Arjun #127: Thanks for clarifying I think we are in agreement then at least on the two questions with minor quibbles.

`There is no BJP-PAC..the Indian-american lobbying groups didn`t lobby for modi`s visa...`

Yes, there is a Friends of BJP. Gujrati motel owners assoc, Khalistan human rights lobby, Indian National Congress of USA, Kashmiri Muslim group and other Indian Muslim PACs in the USA who try to contribute to and plead their cases with US politicians with varying degrees of success. This is without considering the Pakistani lobby and Samina type groups. I can try to find their exact names, I guessed at if you like, but you get the drift. In the political tussle Modi`s supporters lost.
``First, show me where I ever said the US has legal authority...The legal authority of the US only extends as far as it`s military/diplomatic might.. ``

Oh no!
`First show me where I ever said that you ever said..`

You can call military might as legal autbority, but that is about it. However much I may dislike Saddam, his trial is a sham and requires US grunts in Iraq. US better think twice before landing US troops in India anywhere, even more so than Nixon sending the slow seventh fleet in 1971. Of course there are Pak Chowkies who would not mind seeing US troops landing in Pakistan at the slightest excuse, but I have yet to see that from Indians.

#124
If you look at it as a question of how close are the violent groups from the seats of power(I don`t expect you to, however). Maoists are nowhere close to getting control over the seats of power in those states in India though they are causing a lot of grief to the state machinery and citizens. In Bangladesh and Pakistan, the violent fundamentalists are allies of the current government(and/or Army) in power. In Nepal, Maoists have control over a significant fraction of the state and are issuing challenges to the central government/king.

Re: # 130
sadna ...
you talking to me...?

Salim_Chauhan#121

There is no good Modi, just someone who is good at what he does, whether condoning/encouraging mass murder or running administartion. He has never shown any remorse at the events of 2002, let alone done any ``prayshchit``. I have no doubt that he would do the same again, if needed to fulfil his ambitions, even at an All India level.

The Moral of the Story is: The Indian democracy better replace corrupt politicians with honest, efficient ones like Manmohan Singh, otherwise people like Modi would present a fatal attraction.

``M.V Kamath has penned more than forty books and also his autobiography… In his over 40-year journalistic career….From 1978-81 he was the Editor of the `Illustrated Weekly`…. At 84 today, he continues to be a famous columnist writing on political & social matter.``

...is this the same m. v. kamath who penned the following?

But West Bengal, economically, is in no better shape today than it was when first it came to power.

...for an 84 year `young` veteran this sentence and others in his debut article on chowk are mind numbingly atrocious. no wonder illustrated weekly of india had to close down after 150 years.

...now that the think tanker for RSS-BJP has retired may be chowk should ask him to write poems on ullu ka patha. i am sure he could turn out gems like:

Ullu ka patha keh diya usne
Woh lafz aise nikley mooh se
Jaise jazbatoun ki leher uth gayee
Ullu ke pathey ko raah mil gayee
Dhuein ko aag mil gayee.


;);)