The Indifferent Sikh

#24, Mannyd {``Salim_Chauhan: The zealots in the story are very similar to Sunnis putting down `Non-Muslims` like Ahmadis, Khojas or Shias in Pakistan. I can understand religious people but why the strong urge in some to control others in the name of God or religion? ``}

Manny Bhai,
Unfortunately, this license to kill in the name of God by the most pious and religious zealots is present everywhere - Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs. God is partly to blame for giving us stupid humans mixed signals to go out and kill for good and for Him. Joshua killing every man, woman, and child in Jericho. The Bible condoning the right kind of violence. The Koran telling early Muslims to kill the infidels of Mecca. The Shias killing Sunnis as revenge for the 7th century martyrdom of Imam Hussein. The Sunnis killing Shias as heretics. Good Hindus. ike Arjuna, killing their own relatives because Krishna told them to do so. Christian Crusaders killing Jews and Muslims for the Lord. Catholics burning heretics at the stake and Protestants killing Papists as a duty.

I think that murder and rape are so horrible in nature, that man requires divine justification to enjoy this higher category of perverted pleasure - God made us do it, so it was OK.

Kaura,
I did not know much about the actual teachings of Sikhism until I visited Chowk. I was always impressed by the fact that while begging and laziness are accepted pastimes in our part of the world, the Sikhs do not participate in this 2nd oldest profession. That says a lot about Sikhism. I am also learning that the basic principles of being a Sikh revolve around justice and freedom. I can drink to that. I think Sikhs should advertise these qualities to dilute the much-touted militarism and violent aspect that most Muslims identify with Sikhs.
Thanks,

anil,

i am not mad or angry that a sikh smoked.....i don`t give a damn about such `taboos`............

i am just disgusted that it was a given some kind of emancipation garb you have given to an activity like smoking cigreetes.......

the less sikhs there are the better it will be.......like a few lions in the jungle ;-))

when there are too many, they have turned into giddars........... :-((

Mannyd,

I do not want to rehash what I`ve already said and the proofs I`ve presented in many of my last posts.........

I don`t want sikhs to multiply in numbers.....``Quality not quantity is my measure.....``

Ultimately, I blame sikhs for their own stagnation........

Obviously you are naive at the games played against sikhs......Recently, a CID officer published a book where he was the one who supplied weapons to the `terrorists` in the temple.....

I was witness to the game, when CRPF and BSF officers used to boast that they are under orders to create ``terrorists``......

If as you say, that sikhs dominate Pamirs to Kanyakumari, they wont accomplish by being the khusras they have become..............


I am writing this on my way to Christmas shopping......i will answer other ?s......when i am free next week......do check unplugged i will open a thread to answer your other /s..............
Happy Holidays....

Ally,freethinker, mannyd, amansandhu,abskii,salim_chauhan,kaalchakra,.....


You are right kaalchakra. Everyone looks at a narrative from his particular perch and what he sees may not conform to narrator’s perspective. However that should not be the reason for avoiding the fact. If Kuldip was Sikh there is nothing anyone can do about it. Some have already made their judgement “Good riddance”, some are amused and some quite indifferent. That’s the way it always happens.

What however lingers is intelligent, clear headed comments of fellow humans. Thanks!

Theo #35: ``Look at the numbers and whats happening today - the beasts are from your own people and family - worry about the Hindu Nazis and Hindu Hitlers in your mandir and family and friends who are raping and killing now - those khakhi shorted storm troopers.``

I do not know what you mean by `your own people` and why you hold me responsible for them. As far as I or my family are concerned, we have iron-clad alibies both for 1984 and Gujrat. We were not there. The few times I have been to a Hindu temple in the last thirty years, I have never seen a Hindu Nazi, a Hindu Hitler or a Khakhi shorted storm troopers among my family or friends.

I do have two Khakhi shorts, I`ll admit. I can donate them to charity, if you want or ship them to you if that will make you happy.

Who are your people by the way Theo Sahib?
No I have seen enough pictures of 1984 and Gujrat to last me a life time. Will looking at them prove that there was no Hindu/Sikh or Sikh/Sikh violence BEFORE 1984? If not why your generous offer?

Before you have an outburst about my family and friends doing bad things to Tutsies or Hutus, I deny it outright no matter how many websites you produce.

Kali Hawa: Thanks for the translation. You do write pretty well. So was Kuldip a real person or just a character in a fictional story? Even if Kuldip was fictional, I have known many real life Sikhs like him.

KaalChakra: `The real issue is about genuinely understanding why a person (who cannot be accused of this or that ill-intention) may quite reasonably arrive at such a view. And then, of taking every step necessary and feasible to dispel genuine fears as articulated in # 27.`

You know Kaal Babu, you have a very nice rational view of life. I have to agree with you. Of course Aman, DW and KS are patriotic and loyal persons to their religion, family, friends, society and country.
Even if I disagree with anyone of them, I can not cast aspersions on their being rational, except DW maybe on a full moon.

1984 was a terrible event for Punjabis. One of my Hindu relative was shot in 1983 and has been paralyzed for life. Another Sikh realtive was burnt to death in Delhi in 1984. A Canadian relative lost his wife and children on the fateful Air India flight. His mother died of heart attack at Palam airport the same day and it took him years to become functional again.


Aman Ji, Please ignore the bet offer. If you just think about it, you can not know what pictures/ movies I see or saw, what books/magazine I read etc. and vice versa. I have listened to some of Bhindrawala`s tapes and I also have a Sikh relative in USA, who has been a Khalistani since 1944, even while serving in the Indian Army.

It is better to get at the root cause of the problem rather than just kiss the ouchie and hope for the best.

KauraSach $26 : `Law and order prevents confrontations coming to blood baths........In schools here, even teenagers` arguments turn heated and violent over Catholicism and Protestants.....I witnessed such debacle yesterday.........`

I know the violence in Ireland over religion has been going on for centuries but had cooled off recently. Now you saw something in USA too? That is bad. Still does it justify a true Sikh saying `and I wish they were more aggressive and violent in getting rid of these evil designs and their architects.......`?

I would like to know more about the evil designs and their architects though from you sometimes in an article. What benefit would any Hindu accrue from being `more interested in these rifts among sikhs and `sikh sects` to weaken already ill sikhi further.......... `?

I do not know about all the sects among Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. There is always money to be made in starting a new sect and become a new Guru.

Recently a `Sikh` friend, I had known for a long time, died. Only at his services, I came to know that he and his wife and many of their friends were Nirankaris. Correct me if I am wrong but there was a violent attack on their congregation in Amritsar in 1978 and their Guru and scores of followers killed at some later date. Did their killing serve any purpose? Did it make Sikhi healthy and strong?

No, in my opinion, actually it lead to further bloodshed, Khalistan demand, operation bluestar, the Delhi massacre and practically a civil war in Punjab. During the period of 1983-1990 there are pictures of more than 3000 policemen that were killed by Khalistanis on the Punjab Police website. I estimate that some 97% of them are Sikhs, but even the Hindu names look like Sikhs. Their families and relatives who died with them did not even make the roster. I am sure there were equally horrible numbers, if not more, of dead Khalistanis too.

I believe that a person should be able to practise his religion as one sees fit. The trouble with intolerance is that no matter how religious one person becomes, there is a chance that one may still come up short in the eyes of really really true believers, who want the government to enforce the rules.

By the way I did take eat the Big Mac long before my sikh friends went to the barber shop but then I am a low class Brahmin. A Jain relative does not eat beef or drink. Well that is his loss.

# mannyd
How many Sikhs, with or without 5K, do you remember of being killed by Bhindrawala`s followers in Punjab? Did you ever listen to the tapes by the Saint?
I did not listen to tapes of un- saint Bhinderawala. I lost my cousins to his followers, thugs, looters, kidnappers pretending to be freedom fighters.

For comparison, one doesn`t have to look far to find certifiably crazy, irrational, and fanatical people.

Kalihawa, both your handling of the language and your etching of Kuldip`s character were stupendous. The only disappointing element was the main character, Kuldip, being described as a Sikh.

I can bet you have the highest regard for Sikhism. So you may consider that criticism senseless, silly, and without merit. But there is also another perspective, a valid perspective, that transforms your (or any Hindus`) narration of innocuous `incidental facts,` as presented in this story, into seemingly calculated attempts at undermining Sikhi.

kaura and delhiwala are not some crazy, irrational, fanatical guys. If you and I fail to understand and appreciate Sikhism, as it is evolving, I fear, we will fail to understand and appreciate ourselves.

Please take whatever I have said here as nothing other than a humble request, a suggestion. `Criticism` is not the appropriate word here.

mannyd

I have seen some more recent pictures of Hindus pulling Muslim children limb from limb, cutting open pregnant Muslim women, Muslim men pleading for their life just before being hacked to death by Hindu maniacs. Pray tell, what Nazi like virus has turned Hinduism at its more extreme wing into such a genocidal beast of cruelty and evil? And what allows this to thrive with mainstream Hindus ignoring it or looking the other way or in many cases (I suspect, including your own) tacitly supporting it?

Look at the numbers and whats happening today - the beasts are from your own people and family - worry about the Hindu Nazis and Hindu Hitlers in your mandir and family and friends who are raping and killing now - those khakhi shorted storm troopers.

Let me know if you want to see the website in which you can see those pictures. I also have a website where you can see Sikhs getting the treatment too - although I cant use such a poetic simile as you do to describe the slaughter.

Re: # 33

I don`t get this?

``And please, let`s quit using Sikhs in an `incidental` manner. That is/can be quite offensive, even when one doesn`t mean to offend. ``

Kuldip was such a person that if he were a Hindu Brahmin and felt like eating beef he would have done that with the `Janeu` on and if a band of Hindu zealots had confronted him, he would have thrown the Janeu on their faces. In this sense it was symbolic. He was the last person to have made distinction between beef and any other meat.

mannyd, kaura, delhiwala, and amansandhu

No matter what Hindus may believe or say, the fact is that in # 27, Kaura has accurately described how a good number of Sikhs see things.

The question here is not, and cannot not be, about who is right/wrong. Proving that either way will help neither Hindus nor Sikhs. The real issue is about genuinely understanding why a person (who cannot be accused of this or that ill-intention) may quite reasonably arrive at such a view. And then, of taking every step necessary and feasible to dispel genuine fears as articulated in # 27.

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Counterpose these two feelings to see how odd the situation is -

``I, for one Hindu, want to see Sikhi go from kanya Kumari to Pamirs and not be limited to Punjab only.``

``Hindus are more interested in these rifts among sikhs and `sikh sects` to weaken already ill sikhi further.......... ``

The challenge, and we must meet it, is to understand why both these sentiments may coexist among people who wish each other well and share a great deal. And in this case, the lead must come from the Hindus.

---

We need to immediately stop saying, ``I don`t understand why Sikhs feel so.`` Well, then, let`s get out of our ignorance, and develop that understanding from a positive point of view.

And please, let`s quit using Sikhs in an `incidental` manner. That is/can be quite offensive, even when one doesn`t mean to offend.

Re: # 24
Apparently some Sikhs are upset with the story, that wasn’t my intention. As I said earlier Kuldip’s being Sikh was incidental, merely symbolic. I believe and think Kuldip also believed that essence of Sikhism is in teachings of Guru Nanak, not in symbols. Symbols have a tendency to overwhelm us and become the essence of our faith. Does any one think Guru Gobind Singh would have approved Sikhs fighting court cases all over the world to spare Sikhs from wearing helmets or insisting on carrying Kirpans everywhere regardless of other individuals opinions. Smoking wasn’t such an issue in seventies, booze was, in that context Kudip’s observations are relevant.

Well I am not very good at translation, so loosely the sh’er mean:

First sh’er( couplet) would mean

Listen to me, for I have time in hand, who knows what may befell!
Lying dormant in my bosom are some restless stories.

And the last would be:

I fear the spell of sky may break
A pregnant question raking my mind

I give up. Some great poets are here who could do a much better job.

#29: If you doubt my word or my memory, for a small bet to cover my time and expenses I could get hold of the picture.

I always like safe 100% bets.