The Indifferent Sikh

#24, Mannyd {``Salim_Chauhan: The zealots in the story are very similar to Sunnis putting down `Non-Muslims` like Ahmadis, Khojas or Shias in Pakistan. I can understand religious people but why the strong urge in some to control others in the name of God or religion? ``}

Manny Bhai,
Unfortunately, this license to kill in the name of God by the most pious and religious zealots is present everywhere - Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs. God is partly to blame for giving us stupid humans mixed signals to go out and kill for good and for Him. Joshua killing every man, woman, and child in Jericho. The Bible condoning the right kind of violence. The Koran telling early Muslims to kill the infidels of Mecca. The Shias killing Sunnis as revenge for the 7th century martyrdom of Imam Hussein. The Sunnis killing Shias as heretics. Good Hindus. ike Arjuna, killing their own relatives because Krishna told them to do so. Christian Crusaders killing Jews and Muslims for the Lord. Catholics burning heretics at the stake and Protestants killing Papists as a duty.

I think that murder and rape are so horrible in nature, that man requires divine justification to enjoy this higher category of perverted pleasure - God made us do it, so it was OK.

Kaura,
I did not know much about the actual teachings of Sikhism until I visited Chowk. I was always impressed by the fact that while begging and laziness are accepted pastimes in our part of the world, the Sikhs do not participate in this 2nd oldest profession. That says a lot about Sikhism. I am also learning that the basic principles of being a Sikh revolve around justice and freedom. I can drink to that. I think Sikhs should advertise these qualities to dilute the much-touted militarism and violent aspect that most Muslims identify with Sikhs.
Thanks,

anil,

i am not mad or angry that a sikh smoked.....i don`t give a damn about such `taboos`............

i am just disgusted that it was a given some kind of emancipation garb you have given to an activity like smoking cigreetes.......

the less sikhs there are the better it will be.......like a few lions in the jungle ;-))

when there are too many, they have turned into giddars........... :-((

Mannyd,

I do not want to rehash what I`ve already said and the proofs I`ve presented in many of my last posts.........

I don`t want sikhs to multiply in numbers.....``Quality not quantity is my measure.....``

Ultimately, I blame sikhs for their own stagnation........

Obviously you are naive at the games played against sikhs......Recently, a CID officer published a book where he was the one who supplied weapons to the `terrorists` in the temple.....

I was witness to the game, when CRPF and BSF officers used to boast that they are under orders to create ``terrorists``......

If as you say, that sikhs dominate Pamirs to Kanyakumari, they wont accomplish by being the khusras they have become..............


I am writing this on my way to Christmas shopping......i will answer other ?s......when i am free next week......do check unplugged i will open a thread to answer your other /s..............
Happy Holidays....

Ally,freethinker, mannyd, amansandhu,abskii,salim_chauhan,kaalchakra,.....


You are right kaalchakra. Everyone looks at a narrative from his particular perch and what he sees may not conform to narrator’s perspective. However that should not be the reason for avoiding the fact. If Kuldip was Sikh there is nothing anyone can do about it. Some have already made their judgement “Good riddance”, some are amused and some quite indifferent. That’s the way it always happens.

What however lingers is intelligent, clear headed comments of fellow humans. Thanks!

Theo #35: ``Look at the numbers and whats happening today - the beasts are from your own people and family - worry about the Hindu Nazis and Hindu Hitlers in your mandir and family and friends who are raping and killing now - those khakhi shorted storm troopers.``

I do not know what you mean by `your own people` and why you hold me responsible for them. As far as I or my family are concerned, we have iron-clad alibies both for 1984 and Gujrat. We were not there. The few times I have been to a Hindu temple in the last thirty years, I have never seen a Hindu Nazi, a Hindu Hitler or a Khakhi shorted storm troopers among my family or friends.

I do have two Khakhi shorts, I`ll admit. I can donate them to charity, if you want or ship them to you if that will make you happy.

Who are your people by the way Theo Sahib?
No I have seen enough pictures of 1984 and Gujrat to last me a life time. Will looking at them prove that there was no Hindu/Sikh or Sikh/Sikh violence BEFORE 1984? If not why your generous offer?

Before you have an outburst about my family and friends doing bad things to Tutsies or Hutus, I deny it outright no matter how many websites you produce.

Kali Hawa: Thanks for the translation. You do write pretty well. So was Kuldip a real person or just a character in a fictional story? Even if Kuldip was fictional, I have known many real life Sikhs like him.

KaalChakra: `The real issue is about genuinely understanding why a person (who cannot be accused of this or that ill-intention) may quite reasonably arrive at such a view. And then, of taking every step necessary and feasible to dispel genuine fears as articulated in # 27.`

You know Kaal Babu, you have a very nice rational view of life. I have to agree with you. Of course Aman, DW and KS are patriotic and loyal persons to their religion, family, friends, society and country.
Even if I disagree with anyone of them, I can not cast aspersions on their being rational, except DW maybe on a full moon.

1984 was a terrible event for Punjabis. One of my Hindu relative was shot in 1983 and has been paralyzed for life. Another Sikh realtive was burnt to death in Delhi in 1984. A Canadian relative lost his wife and children on the fateful Air India flight. His mother died of heart attack at Palam airport the same day and it took him years to become functional again.


Aman Ji, Please ignore the bet offer. If you just think about it, you can not know what pictures/ movies I see or saw, what books/magazine I read etc. and vice versa. I have listened to some of Bhindrawala`s tapes and I also have a Sikh relative in USA, who has been a Khalistani since 1944, even while serving in the Indian Army.

It is better to get at the root cause of the problem rather than just kiss the ouchie and hope for the best.

KauraSach $26 : `Law and order prevents confrontations coming to blood baths........In schools here, even teenagers` arguments turn heated and violent over Catholicism and Protestants.....I witnessed such debacle yesterday.........`

I know the violence in Ireland over religion has been going on for centuries but had cooled off recently. Now you saw something in USA too? That is bad. Still does it justify a true Sikh saying `and I wish they were more aggressive and violent in getting rid of these evil designs and their architects.......`?

I would like to know more about the evil designs and their architects though from you sometimes in an article. What benefit would any Hindu accrue from being `more interested in these rifts among sikhs and `sikh sects` to weaken already ill sikhi further.......... `?

I do not know about all the sects among Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. There is always money to be made in starting a new sect and become a new Guru.

Recently a `Sikh` friend, I had known for a long time, died. Only at his services, I came to know that he and his wife and many of their friends were Nirankaris. Correct me if I am wrong but there was a violent attack on their congregation in Amritsar in 1978 and their Guru and scores of followers killed at some later date. Did their killing serve any purpose? Did it make Sikhi healthy and strong?

No, in my opinion, actually it lead to further bloodshed, Khalistan demand, operation bluestar, the Delhi massacre and practically a civil war in Punjab. During the period of 1983-1990 there are pictures of more than 3000 policemen that were killed by Khalistanis on the Punjab Police website. I estimate that some 97% of them are Sikhs, but even the Hindu names look like Sikhs. Their families and relatives who died with them did not even make the roster. I am sure there were equally horrible numbers, if not more, of dead Khalistanis too.

I believe that a person should be able to practise his religion as one sees fit. The trouble with intolerance is that no matter how religious one person becomes, there is a chance that one may still come up short in the eyes of really really true believers, who want the government to enforce the rules.

By the way I did take eat the Big Mac long before my sikh friends went to the barber shop but then I am a low class Brahmin. A Jain relative does not eat beef or drink. Well that is his loss.

# mannyd
How many Sikhs, with or without 5K, do you remember of being killed by Bhindrawala`s followers in Punjab? Did you ever listen to the tapes by the Saint?
I did not listen to tapes of un- saint Bhinderawala. I lost my cousins to his followers, thugs, looters, kidnappers pretending to be freedom fighters.

For comparison, one doesn`t have to look far to find certifiably crazy, irrational, and fanatical people.

Kalihawa, both your handling of the language and your etching of Kuldip`s character were stupendous. The only disappointing element was the main character, Kuldip, being described as a Sikh.

I can bet you have the highest regard for Sikhism. So you may consider that criticism senseless, silly, and without merit. But there is also another perspective, a valid perspective, that transforms your (or any Hindus`) narration of innocuous `incidental facts,` as presented in this story, into seemingly calculated attempts at undermining Sikhi.

kaura and delhiwala are not some crazy, irrational, fanatical guys. If you and I fail to understand and appreciate Sikhism, as it is evolving, I fear, we will fail to understand and appreciate ourselves.

Please take whatever I have said here as nothing other than a humble request, a suggestion. `Criticism` is not the appropriate word here.

mannyd

I have seen some more recent pictures of Hindus pulling Muslim children limb from limb, cutting open pregnant Muslim women, Muslim men pleading for their life just before being hacked to death by Hindu maniacs. Pray tell, what Nazi like virus has turned Hinduism at its more extreme wing into such a genocidal beast of cruelty and evil? And what allows this to thrive with mainstream Hindus ignoring it or looking the other way or in many cases (I suspect, including your own) tacitly supporting it?

Look at the numbers and whats happening today - the beasts are from your own people and family - worry about the Hindu Nazis and Hindu Hitlers in your mandir and family and friends who are raping and killing now - those khakhi shorted storm troopers.

Let me know if you want to see the website in which you can see those pictures. I also have a website where you can see Sikhs getting the treatment too - although I cant use such a poetic simile as you do to describe the slaughter.

Re: # 33

I don`t get this?

``And please, let`s quit using Sikhs in an `incidental` manner. That is/can be quite offensive, even when one doesn`t mean to offend. ``

Kuldip was such a person that if he were a Hindu Brahmin and felt like eating beef he would have done that with the `Janeu` on and if a band of Hindu zealots had confronted him, he would have thrown the Janeu on their faces. In this sense it was symbolic. He was the last person to have made distinction between beef and any other meat.

mannyd, kaura, delhiwala, and amansandhu

No matter what Hindus may believe or say, the fact is that in # 27, Kaura has accurately described how a good number of Sikhs see things.

The question here is not, and cannot not be, about who is right/wrong. Proving that either way will help neither Hindus nor Sikhs. The real issue is about genuinely understanding why a person (who cannot be accused of this or that ill-intention) may quite reasonably arrive at such a view. And then, of taking every step necessary and feasible to dispel genuine fears as articulated in # 27.

---

Counterpose these two feelings to see how odd the situation is -

``I, for one Hindu, want to see Sikhi go from kanya Kumari to Pamirs and not be limited to Punjab only.``

``Hindus are more interested in these rifts among sikhs and `sikh sects` to weaken already ill sikhi further.......... ``

The challenge, and we must meet it, is to understand why both these sentiments may coexist among people who wish each other well and share a great deal. And in this case, the lead must come from the Hindus.

---

We need to immediately stop saying, ``I don`t understand why Sikhs feel so.`` Well, then, let`s get out of our ignorance, and develop that understanding from a positive point of view.

And please, let`s quit using Sikhs in an `incidental` manner. That is/can be quite offensive, even when one doesn`t mean to offend.

Re: # 24
Apparently some Sikhs are upset with the story, that wasn’t my intention. As I said earlier Kuldip’s being Sikh was incidental, merely symbolic. I believe and think Kuldip also believed that essence of Sikhism is in teachings of Guru Nanak, not in symbols. Symbols have a tendency to overwhelm us and become the essence of our faith. Does any one think Guru Gobind Singh would have approved Sikhs fighting court cases all over the world to spare Sikhs from wearing helmets or insisting on carrying Kirpans everywhere regardless of other individuals opinions. Smoking wasn’t such an issue in seventies, booze was, in that context Kudip’s observations are relevant.

Well I am not very good at translation, so loosely the sh’er mean:

First sh’er( couplet) would mean

Listen to me, for I have time in hand, who knows what may befell!
Lying dormant in my bosom are some restless stories.

And the last would be:

I fear the spell of sky may break
A pregnant question raking my mind

I give up. Some great poets are here who could do a much better job.

#29: If you doubt my word or my memory, for a small bet to cover my time and expenses I could get hold of the picture.

I always like safe 100% bets.

AmanSandhu # 29: If you did see it, you will not forget it either. Ir was not nice. How many pictures of violence did you see in the Golden Temple before operation bluestar, if any at all? How many Sikhs, with or without 5K, do you remember of being killed by Bhindrawala`s followers in Punjab? Did you ever listen to the tapes by the Saint?

I remember seeing the picture of an unarmed Sikh Granthi running like a gazelle in the Golden temple and being stabbed in the back by a Khalistani Kirpan in 1983/84. It was like one of those Nature show pictures, where an animal`s death is captured at that very instant of death. It was in India West weekly paper, if they are archived somewhere.
Strange I have never seen this picture.

Kaura Sach #27: Thanks for the reply. I`ll have to look up the old papers somehow to recreate what happened. I, for one Hindu, want to see Sikhi go from kanya Kumari to Pamirs and not be limited to Punjab only. It will then be the bridge between religions, it was meant to be.
`I am a sehajdhari sikh, and command much respect at the gurudwara along with other sehajdharis.....we are color blind to this distinction amongst sikhs...... `

Good to know that. Yes, I have been to the local Gurudwara lately even when SIndhi or Punjabi Hindus are praying and doing their langar. However it was not always so everywhere in the past. There were fights vetween Hindus/Sikhs, jats/Khatri Sikhs and Jat/ Jat sikhs, Pro-Khalistani/ANti-Khalistanis in LA Gurudwara.

I remember seeing the picture of an unarmed Sikh Granthi running like a gazelle in the Golden temple and being stabbed in the back by a Khalistani Kirpan in 1983/84. It was like one of those Nature show pictures, where an animal`s death is captured at that very instant of death. It was in India West weekly paper, if they are archived somewhere.

Salim and others,


There are several selfish interests and Hindu intrigues who want to diminsh or wipe the sikh identity......

Under the guise of sehaj dhari sikhs, and sikh sects listed below, they are changing the meanings of sikhi, and giving their own definitions......also, they, in the name of sikhi, do illegal, immoral, and anti sikh acts and preachings.........

Hindus are more interested in these rifts among sikhs and `sikh sects` to weaken already ill sikhi further..........

If sikhs welcome followers of other faiths to their Gurudwaras, why wouldn`t they accept sehajdhari sikhs w/o 5 K s? So, it is nonsense and pile of lies that sikhs targeted non 5K sikhs......

I am a sehajdhari sikh, and command much respect at the gurudwara along with other sehajdharis.....we are color blind to this distinction amongst sikhs......

only outside motives are making an issue.......

The sikhs attacked only persons who had these devious designs......

and I wish they were more aggressive and violent in getting rid of these evil designs and their architects.......

Sikhi has already went to dogs, also figuratively speaking.......

Loss of an identity is the first sign of stagnation........that is why westerners are turning to eastern religions in droves........

Christians have indulged in henious crimes against felllow Chrstns.....Law and order prevents confrontations coming to blood baths........In schools here, even teenagers` arguments turn heated and violent over Catholicism and Protestants.....I witnessed such debacle yesterday.........

Sikhi as it survives today is NOT sikhi.....

Please leave Dilliwala out of our interaction; his character is non essential to the discussion......or topic........

And do not way lay others with half baked truths about sehajdharis.......which i will negate in the above post.....

Kaura Sach #23: `If and when any institution bends its rules, it is the begining of its demise...... `

Kaura Sahib, First of all thank you for a civil reply free of obscenities unlike Delhi-wala. I do not agree with your assessment that Sikhism is going to suffer demise because of relaxed rules or for that matter any outside cause. It survived the most horrible persecution since Christ and is still around.
Hinduism on the other hand suffered because of very strict rules, where people were ex-communicated or thrown out of Biradiri for the slightest of offenses. Shutting off `Hookah-Pani` was a way of enforcing these rules. It only meant that entire large groups decided to leave Hinduism to have their own smoking parties.
There are many different christian `sects` in the USA. When was the last time you saw Baptists storm a Mormon`s house and threaten the family? How many years would you give before Christianity disaapears from this country due to the relaxed rules?

Anil Kala: It was a good story. It will be good if you could translate the Shairs, as Abskii requested. I did not know Anil meant `Hawa` in Sansrit. What are some of the other synnoms?

Aman Sandhu: That was vivid imaginative imagery about Guru Gobind Singh, riding a motorcycle. I do not think that the Dadi Ma was taken in by the slick talk though.)

Salim_Chauhan: The zealots in the story are very similar to Sunnis putting down `Non-Muslims` like Ahmadis, Khojas or Shias in Pakistan. I can understand religious people but why the strong urge in some to control others in the name of God or religion? It is not limited to hot verbal exchanges either. There are sects in Punjab and Sindh like Biasa wale, sahajdhari, NamaDharis, Mona Sikhs who pay respect to Granth sahib and all the Gurus but may not have `Five K`s`. Many of them were shot and killed, while praying peacefully during Indira`s ttime.

21,

When you accept a religion, you accept the code set in it......leave the religion.......if you cannot keep its rules......


If and when any institution bends its rules, it is the begining of its demise......


What you mentioned below are adult choices......but those choices are governed by man made laws......why is it wrong then to enforce religious laws by religious bodies?.Don`t you follow a school`s rule, your employer`s, your state`s cities and traffics? WHY make religion an exception?


What did the mob do that was so horrendous?

Religoius bodies in other countries and faiths are much worse......I wish sikhs were more aggressive in preserving and defending their codes........Their laxity is one reason the faith has suffered.

Chowk Staff: THank you for filtering Delhi Wala`s obscene post # 20. He has a serious handicap in that he has a degree in management from Harvaad and can not control his language usage.

Kaur Sach #18: `Emancipation doesn`t come from changing due to peer pressure or vanity......it comes when one changes due to convictions, independent thought,...etc.
smoking cigereetes is `freedom`.....rubbish! `

So should faith in your religion. What could be more pressing than a mob of your co-religionists behaving as they did in Anil`s story. Yes cigarette smoking, pot smoking, drinking, ham/beef eating, bungee jumping, lottery ticket buying, gambling, whoring are personal choices for an adult and must not be dictated by religion. If any of the activities I listed are illegal in some area, the adult must be willing to pay the piper, but not be answerable to Bhai Delhi Wala, a Mullah or Pandit. Anyway Delhi Wala is not doing a service to Sikhism by his inane pronouncements about his religiosity, his Taya killing Muslim Civilians, Sikh-Muslim friendship. Harvaad messed up the guy completely.

Burpinder #17: `you got that wrong, I will poke a knife into him and blame it on the bh#@$od Hindus. Forgotten? :)`

Whatever Theo wants. I think he has to have a say in this. All the Hindus send their regards to you and your family. Did you follow in Kuldip`s footsteps yet or are still too afraid of DelhiWala?

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Dumb article......

Emancipation doesn`t come from changing due to peer pressure or vanity......it comes when one changes due to convictions, independent thought,...etc.

smoking cigereetes is `freedom`.....rubbish!


there many Brahmins/Jains here who eat beef to mingle/please their bosses......and muslas who drink to appear modern, rebelllious, etc.


there are better ways.....


2nd point.....

sikhs have the right to be angry with anyone who keeps a `sikh` appearance and then flaunts one of the `taboos`.....it is better if he sheds the image and then indugles in the `freedom`.........

#16

you got that wrong, I will poke a knife into him and blame it on the bh#@$od Hindus. Forgotten? :)

#15 Burpinder: Not by the hair on your chiny chin chin.) Theo, do what you will with Burpie. He is the one, who stuck a knife into you and blamed it on the Islamists.

Theo,

Please don`t kill all Hindus. We`ll be glad to hand over manny as a peace offering.

Theo #4 and #5: SOrry I was away for the weekend and probably gave a wrong impression to you of my views.
`Did you eat your foreskin or feed it to your dog?

Very symbolic - was it like some kind of lingam ceremony?`


No I was circumcised due to medical advice. It is a painful operation for a grown up for a few months but is routinely performed at birth in the US hospitals. My dog`s or my dietary habits, some quaint lingam ceremony, if any such thing, had nothing to do with it.

`` dont know why genocidal Hindu maniacs who want to have a `purified` India should worry about anything like conversion - the main thing is to purify India of all its impurities - that should do the trick. The job can be done by Nazi scum carrying out genocide with the cowardly tail-between-their legs RSS rapists and children burners - unless you are one of them, I dont know, then dont worry, just worry about what your dog does with your foreskin. No need to worry about shudhification - just kill all the scum.``

I think you should ask Anil if 1984 timing had anything to do with Kuldip. My Sikh friends in the USA were all adults and shaved their beards and hair in 1965 without any outside pressure from cowardly RSS rapists or child burners. Strangely these friends did just fine without the dogma of 5Ks, raised Sikh families and still consider themselves SIkhs. Maybe they are not proper Sikhs in your opinion. Is that right?

Hinduism and Judism are two religions that do not prosleytize, excpet Arya Samaj in late 1800s tried it and called the process `Shudhification`. If Wahabies, Yogi Harbhajan Singh and Pope can try their hands at peaceful conversions, why should that be denied to Hindus and the jews? However it was a tounge in cheek remark from a self-avowed agnostic. Personally I am also against prosleytization. However it is still better than rampaging mobs. SInce foreskins can not be grown back, all Hindus should undergo circumcision of their own free will.)

If God wanted us all to belong to a certain religion, He could easily manage that without human help.

`Just kill the scum. Simple`

I think you were just being sarcastic. You did not mean it. It is anything but simple to kill 150 millions non-Hindus. Can you imagine the logistics?

If you did mean it, I oppose that view with no ifs or buts, from any person or group, including you. We need to learn that difference in religion, politics, skin color can not be the basis for killing. I believe we are in agreement on that.

Maoists are an entirely different matter though. Are you a Maoist?)

#7, aman,
Your relative`s wit is so appropriate for our times. Yes, I would agree that visionaries like Guru Gobind Singh would ask people to move forward. How much contribution to the Golden Temple can we make to make sure that UBL and his type get a nocturnal visit from such a visionary? Thanks,

Anil Kala,
Very interesting and well-written anecdote, including the delightful shairi. It`s amazing how the band of zealots can drive one right over the edge.

wow. I enjoyed reading that (well, the english parts)...you write very easily, with a sense of character but not over-explaining things.

Keep it up, I look forward to more!!

Re: # 7

Guru Gobind Singh in goggles riding a motorbike! Awesome. That kid deserves Ig Nobel.

kalihawa:
The story that I described belongs to mid-1970s. My friend told it to me quite light-heartedly. This is just one of several other comic situations he experienced.
Mohammad Gill

Re: # 2

Amazed but not surprised that even in this age of saturation media coverage some Americans can confuse a Sikh for snake charmer, thirty years earlier it must have been a common occurrence. However, Kuldip’s being Sikh was incidental, just a symbol. The point I am making was his ability to discard years of cultivated religio-cultural baggage at first inconvenience with minimal fuss. How many of us can do that? I would regard myself an agnostic rational, yet if beef is served to me, I would find it very difficult to ingest.

Majority of Sikhs not smoking, shows how religion can act as a deterent. A relative had cut his hair and was shit scared of facing his dadi who was a strict sikhni. When she confronted him he said, actually last night Guru Gobind Singh came in my dreams. He was riding a mobike, had goggles on, his hair was cut and he had tied a bandana around his head, he said to me `` sikho, tuse othe he ho jithe tuhanu shad gya si, thora age wadho, thore modern ho``[ sikhs, you are still there where I left you, move on, become modern].

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Good article. Ayatula Khomeini had a great influence in starting Bhindrawala to worry about pure Sikhi. All of my Sikh friends in the college ran off to the barbers within days, the week they came to the USA. Some but not all smoked like Kuldip.

I have a Sikh friend who went through a similar cathartic overhaul. A new immigrant in New Jersey from India, he did several odd jobs like making hamburghers at McDonalds, before settling into his regular job as an engineer. When he walked the streets looking for a job, native Americans looked curiously at him with his turbanned head and a long beard on a young face.
One day, a White woman greeted him and asked him if he had a snake in his brief case. That pushed him over the brink. Like Kuldip, he went into the nearest barbar shop and got his new identity, without beard, long hair and turban. Smoke and booze were essential ingredients of his jolly good persona. He is a nice social companion.

Mohammad Gill

what happened to Kuldip when he went back to the college? Nice read.