An Empire in the Making

Behram #181 and #182 {`` If I can not ignore the ones, I want to ignore on the front page, where the interact happens, then what is the sense of having this feature on UP? I think this is bass ackwards. What do you think?

#181 by behram1 on December 20, 2005 2:18pm PT...Re: # 179 Salim Bhai Yes, I did exactly the way you described. And then when I come of the article page, I still notice those nics that I wanted to ignore. Can I never get rid of them? ``}

Behram Braader,
Yes, you can get rid of them forever. It might cost you and then there are some laws against the action. :) Let me know if you want Guido`s contact info.

The reason that ``ignore`` works only on UP is that it is taken for granted that all people on FP are decent human beings, quite capable of polite, cordial, and meaningful intercourse. Meanwhile, the intercourse on UP is of a different nature. :)

masadi #185, Please don`t leave. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with your views is not important. I found myself agreeing with you and disagreeing with some things you posted. But you are a polite and informed interactor and I enjoy discussions with you. Please reconsider.
Thanks,

Thank you for your time everyone and goodbye to you all. It was fun, I learned quite a bit hopefully you all did too. Since CHOWK is baselessly censoring all of my articles, in protest, I will not be posting here anymore, until they get rid of their biased pro-US elite stance. You all are welcome to visit http://www.asadi.org and use the forum over there

re:#177 by beware
In these matters, secrecy is important, especially when lives of the informers is at stake. Iran is a brutal theocratic regime. I personally used to know an Iranian woman during my training years in New York. As i mentioned in my post earlier, she could not go back to her country for fear of not able to return.
If,OTOH, you have a differing opinion on this, please present you case with some references. What u are doing is counter-intuitive. You are saying that this could not have happened, so it did not happen.
Sridhar

the transition from spewing garbage to a comfortable life in a spider-hole can easily be achieved with the help of a few good men. mr. ahmadinejad should watch some recent t.v. news footage.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

##178 by kamath {``What language do they converse in when they travel from West to East?``}

They start off with a Valley Girl accent, then switch to a friendly cowboy style of speaking using words like ``hombre, vamoose, etc.`` Then they sound like the perfect Midwestern accent so popular with Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather type of accent. Veering a bit south, the accent turns into a slow drawl, then coming further East, it becomes laden with Rs, only to be transformed into the disgusting Brooklyn accent. Then all comprehension fades as New England converts what is left into a feeble attempt at speaking the Queen`s English. I hope that helps. :)

Behram Sahib, #175,
Thank you for laughing. On the user profile page you can select ``edit profile.`` Then in the ignore area you start listing each interactor you wish to ignore, seprating the disgusting nicks using commas. Then you update and on the right side of your profile page you should see a list of the people you consider as plague itself. Unfortunately, I don`t think the ignore function really ignores your favorites boogeymen on FP. I am afraid that it only works on UP. I could be wrong. Please try it. Caution, the ignore feature can only handle 16 nics at a time - far fewer than the 1 Billion Indians that you want to stay away from. :)

Re: # 177

What language do they converse in when they travel from West to East?

Re: # 176


My point exactly. She is scrutininzing the whole Iran based on her inetraction with how many people? Can anyone tell me? The population of iran is 70 million. Now to get an accurate account of what goes around in iran would be based on the few dozen people she interviewed. GET REAL. And to call it a norm is just pure psycho.

To give you an insight into the ethnicity of iran i will just give you brief percentage of people, Persians (51%), Azeris (24%), Gilaki and Mazandarani (8%), Kurds (7%), Arabs (3%), Baluchi (2%), Lurs (2%), Turkmen people (2%), Qashqai, Armenians, Persian Jews, Assyrians and others. Now out of the people She did interview how many belonged to which ethnicity. She failed to mention that...

If you can`t answer these questions then i don`t want to carry this discussion further. It is not going anywhere. To me qouting hughes was a grave mistake.


.

re:#168 by beware
She did acknowledge the source at the end of the article. For reasons of security of the people concerned, i am sure she was not more explicit.
Sridhar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Behram Bhai #172
Reading options:

Reading option #1 aka Paki Jihadi fundo option: Close both eyes, chant ``God is Great. I don`t want to be confused by facts. Victory is ours, no matter what they say. If not in this world then in the next. ``Ghazis if we win, Shaheed if we lose. Heads you win, tails I lose. ``

Reading option #2 aka RSS/BJP/VHP/SP/JS/SS/BD option: Open both eyes, look through special glasses that filter time, logic, sequence, and common sense out, chant ``Ram Ram sat he, yehi hamari gat he. `` then chant ``Ram Ram Japna, Paraya maal apna.`` Everything appears as you believe - no timeline, no logic, no rebuttal, Just the truth the way you always envisaged it.

Reading option #3 aka Paki ``liberal, democratic, progressive,`` Amreeki chamcha option: Close one eye and squint until all that is western is rosy, all that is home-grown stinks. Copy westerners, NGOs, and Zionist advisors until you get full front page coverage and a smooch from Bill Clinton. Pretend to care about poor Pakis while stuffing Swiss bank accounts with kickbacks from western interests.

Reading option #4 aka Former Chowk managment and staff option: ``YahaN ke chor heN chowkidar.`` Open and close both your eyes as necessary to see what you want to see and not see what you don`t want to see. Practice ``my people can do no wrong`` policy while condemning innocents to death and worse.

Be careful as you choose.

#172, behram1 {``How do you set reading options? Can you help? Thanks``}
Behram Bhai,
Very carefully. Yes. You are welcome. :)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#170, Kamath LOL :)

...and the chanters of ``India Shining`` mantra are now trying to shed light over who should be the CM of MP. :)

Ya Allah, Ya Allah!! What a flight of fancy!

“…. Persia on the Rise A new empire is on the upsurge in the Middle East. The fabled land of Persia, …
“…..Today, Persia is again reasserting itself, poised to oversee what may be one of the most profound geopolitical reconfigurations of our time……..”
“…., the Persian nation may emerge as a force to be reckoned with…….


Psychiatrists tell you that people can possess strange mindsets. - some boastful , some entertain ideas of megalomania and others get afflicted by delusions of grandeur. I can think of four personalities in our own times.

Hitler thought of pure Aryan Nation that would last thousand years.Then at the end committed suicide in a war time bunker. Mussolini thought himself in Italy as the modern Roman Emperor. Poor fellow- he , along with his mistress , was shot dead by Resisance fighters and was hanged in the public square. Then came Reza Shah Pehlavi of Iran who prided himself as the rightful descendent carrying the banner of Darius the Great of Persia. He never thought himself as the son of army sargent who grabbed the throne in ‘20s. I remember clearly him telling CBS’s Mike Wallace of “Sixty Minutes” in a 1976 show that Iranians are brown Eyed Europeans! He fled the country before the arrival the Great Mullah-Ayatollah- and has to beg for assylum in Panama. Then finally died in Egypt unmourned. Now we have the Saddam Hussain who imagined himself as the modern Saladin who got caught in a spider hole awaiting the death sentence in Bagdad! So goes the story of Great Empires!

But they all are never short of admirers. Um! Could Waqar Ali Sahah be one of them imagining the the eternal Persia lasting another five thousand years when kings, queens, presidents and prime ministers would soon travel to prostrate themselves in the Iranian court in the coming years!

#168, Beware, {``Feminist view the world with a twisted abnormality. They try and they always find something wrong with whats going on around them. Like they are in a permanent state of Paranoia. ``}

Beware Bhayya,
Tum bahoot drust kahat ho. :)

I just want to caution our friends about manufactured and exaggerated grievances:

1. Babies thrown out of incubators by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait - a charge brought by none other than the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US. A blatant lie. But it helped justify the Gulf War of 1991.
2. WMDs stored under every tree in Iraq - used effectively to launch Iraq War of 2003.
3. Tales of horrible suffering of pilgrims to Holy Land - all false claims by Pope Urbanus II to rile up the Christians for the Crusades.
4. Gulf of Tonkin attack justifying US bombing of North Vietnam
5. Horrible treatment of white women at the hands of savage Injuns that resulted in many a massacre of native people.

Let`s not get carried away by these horror stories. Iranian women are relatives of Iranian men. Do you really think that they would have a national policy to persecute, torture, and murder their own relatives? Get real.

Re: # 166

It`s actually funny! to see this article here. But its good that you brought it up. The professor has written so many articles and did research before this one but never got recognition. But all of a sudden she is on the front page of every magazine and has been prasied by every Media out there. She wrote about sex trade in united states and the sex trades in Jew societies but for some reason did not get any fame and fortune. My problem with her research is

1). Its not factual.

Give us number and facts. I do not consider talking to people or chatting in coffee houses any real evidence.

She got into trouble before when RIU was threatened to be sued.

The studies she did in united states could have been backed with facts and statistics. But how did she get any facts or stats in Iran. What is her source? Chatting in coffee houses does not count. We need hardcore evidence. If she can`t provide it then she needs to HUSH!

Feminist view the world with a twisted abnormality. They try and they always find something wrong with whats going on around them. Like they are in a permanent state of Paranoia. My advice to them, life is beautiful. You can make life what you want it to be. Make it beautiful.

re: More unsavoury business in the ``land of the Aryans``
More on torture of women in Iran. Donna Hughes seems to be highlighting this problem with boldness that is commendable. This article is more recent.
Url: http://daneshjoo.org/cgi-bin/publishers/currentnews/exec/view.cgi?archive=9885&num=1874
Excerpts:
(Two summers ago, a middle-aged Iranian-Canadian journalist named Zahra Kazemi was arrested in Tehran while taking photographs of regime hoodlums beating up young people who were demonstrating for freedom. A few days later she turned up dead in a local military hospital. The regime denied requests from the family and the Canadian government to examine the body, insisted that she had fallen in her prison cell and died of injuries to her head, denied that anyone had beaten her, and hastily buried her without any proper autopsy.

The Kazemi family never believed the regime`s story, but efforts to get at the truth were predictably fruitless. Until now. Dr. Shahram Azam, a medical doctor who has just been granted asylum in Canada, has presented a firsthand account of the terrible death of Zara Kazemi. He says he examined Kazemi in a military hospital in Tehran on June 26, 2003. He says he found horrific injuries to her entire body that demonstrated torture and rape. By the time he examined her - an examination limited by the Islamic republic`s sexist restrictions that made it illegal for a male doctor to look at her genital area - Kazemi was unconscious and her body was covered with bruises. According to Dr. Azam, she had a skull fracture, two broken fingers, missing fingernails, a crushed big toe, a smashed nose, deep scratches on her neck, and evidence of flogging on her legs and back.)
(Professor Donna M. Hughes, at the University of Rhode Island, one of the few Western scholars courageous enough to keep reporting on these horrors, says that the enslaved women are typically sold to people in the Arab countries of the Persian Gulf, such as Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates.)
Sridhar

re: A jehad of another kind in Iran
Women in that part of the world (and i am not excluding India here) are often exploited, espiecially if they are not educated. Iran has institutionalized this exploitation. I remember there was an Iranian resident in New York (my senior) who lived with her only child. Her husband was in Iran. She could not even visit him because she feared she would be unable to return once she goes to Iran. I think her husband remarried.
This article is dated but still makes a point. It seems Pakistan has found some common grounds with Iranians in this nefarious business.
(Sex Slave Jihad

By Donna M. Hughes
FrontPageMagazine.com
January 27, 2004

A measure of Islamic fundamentalists’ success in controlling society is the depth and totality with which they suppress the freedom and rights of women. In Iran for 25 years, the ruling mullahs have enforced humiliating and sadistic rules and punishments on women and girls, enslaving them in a gender apartheid system of segregation, forced veiling, second-class status, lashing, and stoning to death.

Joining a global trend, the fundamentalists have added another way to dehumanize women and girls: buying and selling them for prostitution. Exact numbers of victims are impossible to obtain, but according to an official source in Tehran, there has been a 635 percent increase in the number of teenage girls in prostitution. The magnitude of this statistic conveys how rapidly this form of abuse has grown. In Tehran, there are an estimated 84,000 women and girls in prostitution, many of them are on the streets, others are in the 250 brothels that reportedly operate in the city. The trade is also international: thousands of Iranian women and girls have been sold into sexual slavery abroad.

The head of Iran’s Interpol bureau believes that the sex slave trade is one of the most profitable activities in Iran today. This criminal trade is not conducted outside the knowledge and participation of the ruling fundamentalists. Government officials themselves are involved in buying, selling, and sexually abusing women and girls.

Many of the girls come from impoverished rural areas. Drug addiction is epidemic throughout Iran, and some addicted parents sell their children to support their habits. High unemployment 28 percent for youth 15-29 years of age and 43 percent for women 15-20 years of age is a serious factor in driving restless youth to accept risky offers for work. Slave traders take advantage of any opportunity in which women and children are vulnerable. For example, following the recent earthquake in Bam, orphaned girls have been kidnapped and taken to a known slave market in Tehran where Iranian and foreign traders meet.

Popular destinations for victims of the slave trade are the Arab countries in the Persian Gulf. According to the head of the Tehran province judiciary, traffickers target girls between 13 and 17, although there are reports of some girls as young as 8 and 10, to send to Arab countries. One ring was discovered after an 18 year-old girl escaped from a basement where a group of girls were held before being sent to Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates. The number of Iranian women and girls who are deported from Persian Gulf countries indicates the magnitude of the trade. Upon their return to Iran, the Islamic fundamentalists blame the victims, and often physically punish and imprison them. The women are examined to determine if they have engaged in “immoral activity.” Based on the findings, officials can ban them from leaving the country again.

Police have uncovered a number of prostitution and slavery rings operating from Tehran that have sold girls to France, Britain, Turkey as well. One network based in Turkey bought smuggled Iranian women and girls, gave them fake passports, and transported them to European and Persian Gulf countries. In one case, a 16-year-old girl was smuggled to Turkey, and then sold to a 58-year-old European national for $20,000.

In the northeastern Iranian province of Khorasan, local police report that girls are being sold to Pakistani men as sex-slaves. The Pakistani men marry the girls, ranging in age from 12 to 20, and then sell them to brothels called “Kharabat” in Pakistan. One network was caught contacting poor families around Mashad and offering to marry girls. The girls were then taken through Afghanistan to Pakistan where they were sold to brothels.
In the southeastern border province of Sistan Baluchestan, thousands of Iranian girls reportedly have been sold to Afghani men. Their final destinations are unknown.

One factor contributing to the increase in prostitution and the sex slave trade is the number of teen girls who are running away from home. The girls are rebelling against fundamentalist imposed restrictions on their freedom, domestic abuse, and parental drug addictions. Unfortunately, in their flight to freedom, the girls find more abuse and exploitation. Ninety percent of girls who run away from home will end up in prostitution. As a result of runaways, in Tehran alone there are an estimated 25,000 street children, most of them girls. Pimps prey upon street children, runaways, and vulnerable high school girls in city parks. In one case, a woman was discovered selling Iranian girls to men in Persian Gulf countries; for four years, she had hunted down runaway girls and sold them. She even sold her own daughter for US$11,000.

Given the totalitarian rule in Iran, most organized activities are known to the authorities. The exposure of sex slave networks in Iran has shown that many mullahs and officials are involved in the sexual exploitation and trade of women and girls. Women report that in order to have a judge approve a divorce they have to have sex with him. Women who are arrested for prostitution say they must have sex with the arresting officer. There are reports of police locating young women for sex for the wealthy and powerful mullahs.

In cities, shelters have been set-up to provide assistance for runaways. Officials who run these shelters are often corrupt; they run prostitution rings using the girls from the shelter. For example in Karaj, the former head of a Revolutionary Tribunal and seven other senior officials were arrested in connection with a prostitution ring that used 12 to 18 year old girls from a shelter called the Center of Islamic Orientation.

Other instances of corruption abound. There was a judge in Karaj who was involved in a network that identified young girls to be sold abroad. And in Qom, the center for religious training in Iran, when a prostitution ring was broken up, some of the people arrested were from government agencies, including the Department of Justice.

The ruling fundamentalists have differing opinions on their official position on the sex trade: deny and hide it or recognize and accommodate it. In 2002, a BBC journalist was deported for taking photographs of prostitutes. Officials told her: “We are deporting you … because you have taken pictures of prostitutes. This is not a true reflection of life in our Islamic Republic. We don’t have prostitutes.” Yet, earlier the same year, officials of the Social Department of the Interior Ministry suggested legalizing prostitution as a way to manage it and control the spread of HIV. They proposed setting-up brothels, called “morality houses,” and using the traditional religious custom of temporary marriage, in which a couple can marry for a short period of time, even an hour, to facilitate prostitution. Islamic fundamentalists’ ideology and practices are adaptable when it comes to controlling and using women.

Some may think a thriving sex trade in a theocracy with clerics acting as pimps is a contradiction in a country founded and ruled by Islamic fundamentalists. In fact, this is not a contradiction. First, exploitation and repression of women are closely associated. Both exist where women, individually or collectively, are denied freedom and rights. Second, the Islamic fundamentalists in Iran are not simply conservative Muslims. Islamic fundamentalism is a political movement with a political ideology that considers women inherently inferior in intellectual and moral capacity. Fundamentalists hate women’s minds and bodies. Selling women and girls for prostitution is just the dehumanizing complement to forcing women and girls to cover their bodies and hair with the veil.

In a religious dictatorship like Iran, one cannot appeal to the rule of law for justice for women and girls. Women and girls have no guarantees of freedom and rights, and no expectation of respect or dignity from the Islamic fundamentalists. Only the end of the Iranian regime will free women and girls from all the forms of slavery they suffer.

---

Dr. Donna M. Hughes is a Professor and holds the Carlson Endowed Chair in Women’s Studies at the University of Rhode Island.)
All i can say, after reading this article is: Oh, how the mighty have fallen!
sridhar

re: Iranian arrogance
You go to any Iranian site and all u hear is how great their civilization is. Well, how come i do not feel that greatness? If one were to go by beharam`s posts, Iran is proud and stupid. Many other civilizations like Iraq under Saddam Hussein and Syria are also proud and stupid.
I had a Syrian freind who often used to tell me that Damascus is the oldest surviving capital in the world. May be true but i do not see what was the point he was trying to make. Ditto with Iranians. They will tell you how ancient their civilization is blah, blah, blah. As if antiquity automatically bestows some kind of sanctity to the whole situation.
I would argue, the older your civilization is, the greater problems you carry. Look at India. It too is a proud civilization but you will not find Indians ranting constantly about how ancient their civilization is. India has too many problems at hand and is busy finding a solution to them in the most humane way possible. It did inherit ancient philosophy from seers and sages but also inherited the modern ways of governance including parliamentary democracy, secularism, legal framework from the British. These British legacies have proved beneficial to India.
Iran of the present has no resemblance to ancient Persia. Iran is an Islamic Republic with its own narrow view of the world order. Iran has not truly inherited any ancient philosophy and does not draw inspiration or wisdom from its past. It just quotes ancient history to make a point, that being Iran is great and its people, of Aryan origin, are somhow superior etc etc. You can see similar kind of arrogance in Beharam`s posts. That makes a stink that Iranians do not notice.
Iranians, much like Pakis, are caught in a dilemma. Should they call themselves Iranians or Persians. Present day Iran claims it is the inheritor of legacy of Cyrus the Great but it is still an Islamic theocratic state with a nutcase at the helm today. In the past, many migrated out of that country for want of liberty. Parsees of India are an eg. But many Iranians will not see this reality and will continue to claim they are inheritors of Cyrus` legacies.
Sridhar

re:#155 by Urstruly
Dude,
Do u still live in US? It is scary to think someone like u could be the next Md Atta. Why do u guys hate US so much and yet continue to live there?
Europeans did not perpetrate holocaust. It was done by Nazi Germany that was defeated by the combined actions of rest of Europe (exclude German occupied lands, fascist Italy) and US.
Sridhar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Highly unlikely; iran`s stupidity might get the best of them before they mateiralize their expansion.

i think right now china`s gradual economic expansion is what needs focus.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Salim at # 158:

I hope that Iran`s friend like India and Pakistan are able to bring some sense to Mr. Ahmednijad.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re:Salim_Chauhan#137

You wrote,``Behram Sahib,
You are asking a Chauhan why he hates Ghori. :)``

LOL!! This was really funnny.

It would be interesting to trace the descendents of those historical figures. Sometime back I came across a letter to the editor in the Pakistani newspaper ``The News``. The person writing was a Chauhan and claimed to be the actual descendent of Prithvi Raj. He was also a Muslim Chauhan settled in Pakistan.

I have never heard of anyone claiming to be an actual descendent of Ghaznavi or Ghori. The descendents of Mughals are in dire straits. In fact, the last descendent runs a tea stall in some slum in Kolkata. As compared to these big dogs, the small time Nawabs and Maharajas did very well for themselves. Their descendents like Saif Ali Khan, Karan Singh etc have done quite well for themeselves.

I have nothing but utmost respect for President Ahmadinijad for his courage to express the truth. He is the only man among a group of 59 eunuch Muslim leaders of other countries. He is the only lion in the a herd of 59 coward goats. He is the only one who can express the feelings of his nation and all Muslims loud and clear.

The fact of the matter is that it was Europeans who committed crimes against humanity when they perpetrated holocaust against jews. It is them who created and operated death camps, concentration camps, gas chambers, and firing squads to express their hatered against a helpless jewish minority. At that time jewish refugees found refuge in the Muslim lands. But Europeans and Americans did not stop there. They moved their concentration camps from Europe to Palestine and named them Gaza Strip and West Bank. A whole nation of Palestinians has been incarcerated in those concentration camps where they are tortured, murdered, and humiliated everyday for a crime they never committed. The big satan and its European progeny make sure everyday that those two concentration camps keep on operating. They make sure that animosity between Muslims and Jews keep on flaming. All of that so that no one could point finger at them for the biggest crime in the history of mankind that they have committed against first Jews and then Muslims. It is Europeans and United States who should be apologizing to the world for their heinious crimes and not Mr. Ahmadinijad. And I don`t know why Iran even have to negotiate with Europeans or Americans for for anything. Iran has to establish and strengthen relationship with South America, Russia and other free nations of the world.

I must commend Mr. Ahmadinijad for standing up for truth, justice, and humanity. Down with the shameless and immoral realpolitik and hypocrisy. Ahmadinijad is the proof positive that there is still hope in this world.

#153, While feeding the ganna to the Injuns, the fair Persian forgot to look out for the loya jirga. And now it`s more than feelings that may get hurt. A zai here and a zai there, pretty soon we are going to have all kinds of zaiqa. :)

As the old Farsi proverb that Mughals used to say goes:
Awwal (Ekki) Afghan, doyum Kamboh, soyum badzaat Kashmiri.

Behram ignored rule #1 and now watch out Ghol Makhora.

Re: # 149 Alizai:

[ have you yourself encountered any bacha baaz pathan?] No Alizai, we Persians have always been teachers and leaders. Bacha baazi like buz kushi is probably from the Greeks, and that is what was asked. Sorry, that it hurts your feeling.

#148, #149 I think that Behram has now stirred up the loya jirga. :)

#147, Kalihawa {``Salim Sahib, parallel is out of context. Gujarat is tragic history, Iran is in dire straits. ``}

Black wind from Jamaica, :)
I was drawing no parallels, just connecting some dots. 2002 is not history and Iran is near the Strait of Hormuz - nothing dire about that.

Re: # 146

Salim Sahib, parallel is out of context. Gujarat is tragic history, Iran is in dire straits.

Re: # 141 have you yourself encountered any bacha baaz pathan?

at the time the persians didn`t know Alex was a gay!

at the time the persians didn`t know Alex was a gay!

DM Sahib #143, {``Aa bail mujhe maar! ...I think that the previous Iranian government was acting very intelligently...Iran should get rid of its President before it invites the wrath of more powerful enemies.:{

DM Sahib, LOL on the bail example.
I agree with you that President Ahmedinijad is not appearing too bright with his rhetoric. I agree with you that Iranians should start a recall movement to remove this democratically-elected leader, just as soon as the people of Gujarat have the common sense to remove the confirmed and unrepenting mass murderer they elected to office. :)

Behram Bhai,
Persians have been confusing everyone since they lost their shirts (and skirts) to Alexander. They lost but their culture prevailed, even Alex started acting Persian. Being a Greek (OK OK, a Macedonian!) Alex had to pass on the Hellenistic culture everywhere - Persians and Pathans included. Too bad Porus would have none of the Greek stuff. It seems that Pakistan has just as many Greek descendants as it has Syeds. :)

Mohar #142, {`` know..... you can spin it in many ways .... but getting defeated by gay guy - that shame would stay forever :)``}

Mo,
That would explain the Persian tendency to rely on brains rather than brawn. Look at the Parsis (except Sam Maneckshaw), most of them tend to be successful businessmen in both India and Pakistan. Shias were never known to be great warriors. OTOH, love, beauty, atreachery, and knowledge conquer all. :) Nur Jahan and Mumtaz Mahal were Persians. :)

Aa bail mujhe maar!

Iran`s President is acting like the proverbial stupid man provoking an angry bull.

Iran certainly has the wherewithal to make a great power. The desire is not new. The Shah of Iran had the same ambition and he could have carried it out, too, if he had been able to allow a little bit of democracy in the country.

Iran`s desire to have nuclear weapon is quite natural. It`s an ancient and proud civilization. It has seen other countries in the region, India, Pakistan and China aquire nuclear weapons and does not see any reason why it should be denied the same right. All Iranians, regardless of their views about the Islamic state share this dream and it is a great unifier of the nation.

I think that the previous Iranian government was acting very intelligently, engaging the rest of the world with moderate statements while quietly moving towards its objective. The new president of Iran has, however, undone all the good work of the previous regime with talking like a speaker outside Shahi Masjid. It is one thing to defy the Americans and quite another to defy the entire world opinion, except a few Muslim countries. Iran should get rid of its President before it invites the wrath of more powerful enemies. Nobody should underestimate Israel`s capacity to strike at Iran. It is perhpas waiting for the world opinion to turn against Iran to the point where most people would feel that its preemptory attack on Iran was justified. Hopefully, some good friends of Iran would be able to talk sense to the powers that be in that country.

Re: # 138
[...and became thoroughly Persianized in the process?...]

I know..... you can spin it in many ways .... but getting defeated by gay guy - that shame would stay forever :)

Just kidding....

Re: # 138 Salim Bhai:

Why do Persians do this to the conqerors? [but wasn`t it a Persian who Alexander fell in love with? and became thoroughly Persianized in the process?] It seems that they have confused everybody.

So, you don`t like a Pathan? This well known characteristic of Pathans being ``bachay-baz,`` was that due to Alexander?

Re: # 132 salim
[...they can understand why Ghaznavi and Ghori were not nice guys ....]

I for one understand Ghazi and Ghori..... they succeeded because by that time the hindus were on downward path.....their civilization and strength was waning .... they were divided and quarrelsome and pathetic.... after centuries of good life - they have turned idealistic and away from realism - in other words - they turned sissies..... both mentally and physically....

And that continues till date..... non-violence/pacifism is given too much importance.... Don`t get me wrong - these stuff is good and necessary for any society but you must also pack a punch to defend when the need be.....

Malik Sahib,
Was Pol Pot of Hindu ancestry? I am developing a theory and the answer does matter.

#133, Mo,
So the Persians were defeated to a pulp by a gay Greek who was actually a Macedonian. :)
You can say that, but wasn`t it a Persian who Alexander fell in love with? and became thoroughly Persianized in the process?

#134, Behram Sahib, {``Re: # 132 Salim Bhai: { but, I still hate that Ghori dude. } Why make such a distinction? Please elucidate. ``}

Behram Sahib,
You are asking a Chauhan why he hates Ghori. :)
Being Muslim does not mean that I have to like every Pathan bandit who descends from the mountains of Afghanistan. :)

Re: # 131 bong

I understand..... what I was pointing to is the tendency on part of Indians to be defensive on their violent past..... the non-violent/pacific part of the culture is given a little too much high-pedestal - and that actually works against our interests in many ways.....

#130, Behram Sahib,
Around 100 AD, weren`t the Persians ruled by some Greek descendatns of Seleucus? Actually, by this time, the Persians had gotten rid of the Greek hemerrhoid and were free as Parthains. Parthia, a small kingdom in northern Persia, broke away and brought Persia under its rule, building an empire that extended from the Bolan Pass to the Euphrates River. :) Isn`t the Bolan pass in Pakistan today?

Re: # 132 Salim Bhai: { but, I still hate that Ghori dude. } Why make such a distinction? Please elucidate.

Re: # 126 salim

Point taken :) .... I have no issues in accepting that our hinud hero Puru defeated Alexandar - I mean, I like that.........On the other hand - it was no big deal - Alexandar was gay anyway :) what`s big deal in defeating a gay guy in a pink suit ? :).....

That leads us to the fact that Iranians folded to the same gay guy ..... and now they talk about making an empire and sh!t :).... I mean, come on..... right?

Mohar #128, {`` mean hindu kings were NOT a bunch of sissies... they had to do what kings/emperors usually do - conquer, kill, get killed.... I mean - it would be really unusual if they didn`t get violent - that was the order of the day.... ``}

Mo,
Spoken like a realist. :) Of course, they killed and got killed. They conquered and got conquered. Now, if everyone can understand that they can understand why Ghaznavi and Ghori were not nice guys - they were kings and Muslim kings at that. :)
Anyway, I am willing to accept history as bygone events - but, I still hate that Ghori dude.

#128

it doesnt matter if I get upset, or Malik spouts untruth or what you and I feel.

the truth is the truth, it will prevail

Satyameva Jayate!

Re: # 127 Salim_Chauhan Bhai:

You are asking me?

[Wait a minute, I don`t think the Rajputs were in India when Kampu was around. Is that true? :)] We, Persians, were still trying to figure out what the heck is going on with Zarathushtra`s Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good deeds, I suppose?

You tell me. :)

Brilliant Delusion

Re: # 120

Yo Mishra and bong - I don`t know why you guys are getting so upset on this..... So a hindu king did stuff with force for a change - so what?..... why do hinuds always have to be so goody-goody, non-violent and all that BS?......

I mean hindu kings were NOT a bunch of sissies... they had to do what kings/emperors usually do - conquer, kill, get killed.... I mean - it would be really unusual if they didn`t get violent - that was the order of the day....

Behram #124, {``There you go, once gain, with your chamcha geeri [At the time of Kampu`s conquest of Cambodia, we were Hindus.] Not me, we were Persians :) ``}

Behram, braader-e-man,
Part of me was Persian too. :) The other part was drinking fermented horse milk on the plains of Central Asia. But the Chauhan part was out there somewhere carrying Kampu`s compass as he blitzkrieged to Pnom Penh.

Wait a minute, I don`t think the Rajputs were in India when Kampu was around. Is that true? :)

#122, Mohar11,
So, Mo, you were an eye-witness. :)
Abey yaar, just because Hollywood likes to show the west winning doesn`t make it right. The Greeks have always been favored over the Persians by western historians. Only Cyrus is praised among the Persians, only because he freed the Jews from Babylon. We should always question the one-sided explanations offered by westerners. Remember, the Crusades were good. The Spaniards ``discovered`` America and defeated the heathen, naked savages. The ungrateful Indians mutinied against the civilized Christian British who were doing so much for India. The pioneers civilized the West and settled it despite the presence of all the hostile, blood thirsty Injun savages. So, Porus didn`t defeat Alex - our young hero was tired and the Greek soldiers, who were always behind him, felt like going home. All except the Kailash who settled in Chitral and are now ardent Pakis.

pmishra2 # 120 ``there is no point continuing a discussion with a person who knows ZERO about real history but is full of opinions``

I was asked to back my assertion that an indian king established a kingdom in Cambodia. Indians on this board seemed to be ignorant of the fact that Indians had anything to do with Cambodia. I gave the name of the king and the date of the formation of that empire. Salim sahib provided a cut and paste to back my assertion.

There is nothing left to my ``opinion``, now that facts have been provided. In terms of professional courtsey, you now ought to accept that you were not informed at the beginning of this debate regarding cambodia and now you are. But to bitterly leave the board by accusing me of having ``zero`` knoweldge of history is unfortunate.

Re: # 121 Salim_Chauhan:

There you go, once gain, with your chamcha geeri [At the time of Kampu`s conquest of Cambodia, we were Hindus.] Not me, we were Persians :)

#117

Its not just Indonesia, the Indian cultural influence extends from Burma to Vietnam and over a period of centuries. Now if you count Buddhism ...

But in all this time, the only actual ``invasion`` of South East asia by an empire based in preesent day India was by the Chola`s based in Thajavur of present day Malaysia and Indonesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholas

If you ever have time in New York visit the Metropolitian Museum which has an extensive collection of south-east asian Hindu and Buddhist art.

Re: # 114

Malik is right .... recently saw the movie on Alexendar, the Gay....err, the Great....:) That`s how the movie depicted his conquest.... He advanced to India against the wishes of his commanders.... the monsoon created a havoc for his army...... And the war in India took a heavy toll - there is a awesome fight scene there involving Al`s Horse and Puru`s elephant :)

#115 by bongdongs {``Salim mian, for all your invective at Narenda Modi and the RSS, I would have never believed you were a ardent believer of the right-wing hindu version of history :-)``}

Bongy,
At the time of Kampu`s conquest of Cambodia, we were Hindus. :)

#105 malik99

As I suspected, you are an quite ignorant and innocent of any historical knowledge. Hindu and buddhist culture passed into south-east asia WITHOUT violence and conquest. The same happened in Afghanistan and Central Asia. No indian king every conquered these regions. Buddhism went from India to every asian country without violence and mass murder.

Anyway, there is no point continuing a discussion with a person who knows ZERO about
real history but is full of opinions. Good luck!!

#114, Malik Sahib,
I defer to your account of what happened to Alex in India - after all you have researched the details and are very informed on the subject. I still contend that we should give ol Porus the benefit of the doubt for standing up to the Macedonian intruder. There are many things that cause people to turn back - weather, defeat, hunger, distance, lack of ammunition, lack of resolve, homesickness, and various other excuses. The fact is that he did turn back.

The Turks were repulsed at Vienna in 1683 - harsh winter weather, Polish cavalry attacking them in the rear, soldiers wanting to return, etc.. The fact remains that they were turned back = defeat. I am harsh when it comes to granting excuses for defeats. :)

bongdong # 111 ``and how many soldiers were in his army?``

After my response at # 110 to your thunderous question posed in #106, this is quite a whimper of a question. I will let you google statistics on his army. Thanks.

Re: # 112

Interesting... good info Salim.... Didn`t know about this Kambu guy..... That means - hinuds were not as much pu$$ies as I thought they were..... you know - we keep hearing how Indians were non-violent pious souls who couldn`t hurt a fly - didn`t conquer nobody - in other words, pacifist fools how never had b@lls to expand their domains.....

Good to know Mr Kambu conquered something for us hinoods.... even if it`s the little Cambodia.... :)

Did any indian conquer anything in Indonesia? .... I strongly suspect Indians had done some sh!t there too - half the Indonesians names sounds derived from Indian names.... even the name ``indonesia`` - why is it called ``Indonesia``?

#112

How about this for another cut and paste:
http://www.angkorwat.org/html/L2205.html

THE INDIANIZATION OF CAMBODIA:
The Indianization of the region was a peaceful process of acceptance by the resident tribes in the region. Small settlements were founded by Indian traders, inter-marriage between Indians and natives helped the absorption process and gradually Indian methods of religion, lifestyle, administration and law, writing, building and art styles were adopted by the Cambodian society. Indian literary traditions - especially the Mahabharata - were also incorporated into Cambodian culture and often portrayed in art.

Indianization of the region, particularly the adoption of Indian ideas of kingship and lifestyle, were essential in transforming native tribalism into independently advanced kingdoms. These early kingdoms were themselves the basis for the great empire of the Khmers of which Angkor was the capital city.

This process of Indianization took place in two phases. The first coincides with the legend of Kambuja, around the first century AD. The second period came after the appearance of the foreigner, Chandan, to the throne of Funan in AD357. He was probably an Indian brahmin, and reforms in the law and administration based on Indian types seem to have taken place in the later fourth and fifth centuries. Kaundinya Jayavarman, who succeeded Chandan as king of Funan in AD478, initiated reforms in the law and administration of his kingdom based on similar practices in India. Significant Indian influence was evident in the records of the reigns of the kings of Funan in the sixth century.

#112

Salim mian, for all your invective at Narenda Modi and the RSS, I would have never believed you were a ardent believer of the right-wing hindu version of history :-)

salim #108 ``Indians were able to turn back Alexander whereas the Persians simply bowed as he rapidly went right through their domains.``

Salim sahib, that is a misleading statement. Indians did not turn back Alexander. Alexander turned back Alexander. You need to keep the context of Alexander`s march clear. His main (and only) motivation at the onset was to beat Persians, not Indians. Once Persians were beaten, he continued on towards India out of his own ambition. The siege at Jehlum was catastrophic for Alexander, not as much because of the military prowess of Indian raja, but because of the monsoon and the general tiredness of his army which just wanted to go back home and did not want to fight anymore. Once the raja was duly defeated and captured, Alexander bowed to the wishes of his generals and turned back.

re:#71 by malik99
You seem to confuse between economic and cultural influence. China is the dominant economic force in Asia and would continue to influence South East Asia both economically and culturally. India`s influence in that area is mainly cultural. Singapore, Malaysia have sizable Indian expatriate population. Tamil is one of their official languages. India also is close culturally to Thailand, Cambodia, Burma.
Sridhar

#111, Bongy, Kambu was moving so fast that not one of the Biharis was able to count the number of men in his rapid deployment force. :)



Kambu

The country that is known as Cambodia today was known earlier as Kambuja on the name of the great man Kambu. Kambu had initially been an Indian king who led a campaign, an expedition of victory of direction ( digvijaya ) in the East and entered an area having jungles that was being ruled by a Naga-worshipper ( Snake-worshipper ) king. Defeating him he married his daughter and developed that area. The beginning of the Kambuja empire can be traced to emperor Shrutavarma of Kaliyuga`s 32nd century ( i.e. the 1st century A.D. ). Shrutavarma and his descendant kings carried aloft the flag of Sanatan ( Hindu ) Dharma and culture in the Kambuja empire. Later, from Kaliyuga`s 38th to 46th ( i.e. 7th to 15th A.D. ) centuries the kings of Shailendra dynasty ruled over Kambuja.

#110

``Sure. In AD 100 the kingdom of Funan, part of the lands which eventually became the Khmer Empire or Cambodia, was established by the Indian brahmin, Kambu``

---

and how many soldiers were in his army?

bongdong # 106 ``Man, you are way out of your area of competence hence. This is just fricking hilarious. Could you enlighten us which ``ramayana thumping hindu king`` conquered Cambodia?``

Sure. In AD 100 the kingdom of Funan, part of the lands which eventually became the Khmer Empire or Cambodia, was established by the Indian brahmin, Kambu. The subsequent settlement of Indian traders began the process of Indianization of Cambodia.

Hope that helps.

#106 bongy {``Could you enlighten us which ``ramayana thumping hindu king`` conquered Cambodia?``}

King Sihanouk? Maybe it was King Pol Pot - but wait he was in Gujarat, right? :)

Malik Sahib, {``Salim sahib, Indian civilization lacked one essential ingredient that makes for a strong civilization - militaristic culture``}

Malik Sahib,
Differenet civilizations have had varying levels of miitary prowess at different times. Indians were able to turn back Alexander whereas the Persians simply bowed as he rapidly went right through their domains. As a matter of fact, after their defeat at the hands of the Arabs (Sa`ad ibn Abi Waqqas), the Persians did not resurface as a military power until the Safavids in the 16th century and Nadir Shah in the 18th - neither of them could be considered Persian in the truest sense. Safavids and Nadir Shar were as Persian as Ghori was Indian. :)

ahmadzai Sahib,
I am glad that we agree on the damage that Wahabbis have done to Islam. I think that intermarriages will contribute in reducing the nonsensical animosity between Shias and Sunnis. I have heard that during the Mughal days in India, such intermarriage was quite common.

#105

``It was not just a cultural invasion by hindu civilization. It were ramayana thumping hindu kings who came and established an empire there in the 12th century. The local population did not just accept them as kings out of goodness of their hearts - these kings were backed by massive armies.``

---

Man, you are way out of your area of competence hence. This is just fricking hilarious. Could you enlighten us which ``ramayana thumping hindu king`` conquered Cambodia?

pmishra # 103 ``I have commented earlier that this discussion is a little bit out of your league. You need to study history and culture before making these broad comments. There was NEVER any military intervention by indian states in south-east asia. ``

I did not have to give you a knock-out punch. You did a pretty good job yourself :)

Please take a trip to Siem Reap, Cambodia. There you will come across a world heritage site called Angkor Wat. Rings a bell? It was not just a cultural invasion by hindu civilization. It were ramayana thumping hindu kings who came and established an empire there in the 12th century. The local population did not just accept them as kings out of goodness of their hearts - these kings were backed by massive armies.

Behram,
Civilization usually starts from some base and then expands by innovating, borrowing, adopting, superceding, and transforming. I think that your friend is incorrect in stating that Iranianism = Shiaism. Shia Islam is just one aspect of both Arab and Persian civilizations that manifested itself in the 7th century and became a part of Iranian politial/social life in the 16th century. Islam is just one aspect, probably the second most important aspect after language, of the Arab civilization. I am not qualified to comment on Sufism being related to Zoroastrianism. It certainly belongs in the Persian and Turkish categories and later on a part of the Indian culture.

#97 malik99

[quote]
The farthest militaristic impact of Indian civilization was perhaps Kabul to the west and modern day Cambodia to the east.
[quote]

I have commented earlier that this discussion is a little bit out of your league. You need to study history and culture before making these broad comments.

There was NEVER any military intervention by indian states in south-east asia. Indian influence is cultural and civilizational. It will now be augmented by economic and, yes, limited amout of military backup.

As I said before, you are still pretty focussed on 1000AD with over emphasis on central asian superiority in warfare. We all know what happened then. The question is what will happen in 20XY.

Re: # 98 ahmadzai:

Not to belabor your post too much. Lately, I do find muslims voice their disgust against acts of terrorism. It is only (maybe) that at the same time, some justify these acts because of Palestinians/Israelis issue. Dawn editorial is notorious for that. I have yet to read its editor condemn the act of terror only.

{Each time a terrorist attack takes place by a so called Muslim, all the Muslims should take responsibility and apologize to the world.} I agree that lately muslims have begun distancing themselves from the crime of terrorism. And that distinguishes them from their Ummah. It is a slow process of acknowledging an evil act and separating it from the rest of the co-religionists.

{But why have that apologetic attitude when we have nothing to do with those so called Muslims?} Of course, muslims do not have excommunicating device installed amongst them. If there is one, then I am not familiar with it. Merely stating that we have nothing to do with it does not cut it. This has to be loud, it has to be emphatic, it has to be clear, and it has to be repeated constantly.

Muslims can not have it both ways.

{Won’t you then extend the same logic to non-Muslims who commit the same crime against us. For example, we should ask each and every single Hindu organization, journalist, educator, etc, to apologize to Muslims on Gujrat incident.} O!, yes, of course. This is a crime and enlightened societies should not condone it under any disguise.

We have too many forms of hatred in this world. We do not need religious bigotry permeating our societies.

Respectfully submitted,

ahmedzai: greetings. I think ahmedinijad is doing what all maulvis do once they come to power - namely talk big. Thus, after coming to power, mullah omar wrapped himself (literally) in a blanket he claimed belonged to the prophet (most likely it was Made in China or something) - and proceeded to destroy ancient buddha statues to prove his manhood.

You are absolutely right in saying that islam enjoins upon us to live in peace with everyone and avoid unnecessary conflicts. This plea is repeated again and again in the Quran. But it falls on the deaf ears of the mullah.

There is a time and a place for everything - the Arab-Israeli conflict has gone on long enough. Just like the Kashmir issue has gone on long enough. Common sense would say that it is time to put an end to it and move on.

tahmed:

Re: # 95

And I fail to understand why is he doing that, except that it will spread anarchy in the middle east with radical, anti-Israeli Muslims pitted against moderates in each and every country. As it is, Jamaat-e-Islami`s Qazi Hussain is speaking for Iranian stance on Israel and a large population of Egypt is becoming restless.

I believe that `Tolerance` is the key word for Muslims of all sects. That is why I wholeheartedly agree with Salim that there is no place for firebrand type of wahabism in Pakistan or anywhere else.

Salim:

Re: # 79

Thanks for sharing your personal background. Not many people do that here. At close relatives level, I have something in common with you on this account and that is why I mentioned the inter-marriages part :-) Because of this reason, Alhomdolillah, I am quite knowledgable about Shia Islam.

I fully agree with your final sentence.

Behram at # 73:

I tended to tow the same line that you are till some time ago. I believed that Sunnis should have come out strongly against the killings of Shias by terrorists. However, the following made me change my opinion:

1. I surfed through all the Pakistani Urdu and English newspapers and found that journalists, columnists from all shade of political spectrum had criticized the attacks. Newspaper editorials and letters by readers also showed strong resentment.

2. MQM slated the attacks whenever they occurred in urban Sindh (there were no such attacks in rural Sindh). Now we all agree that MQM represents the Sindhis living in urban areas of Sindh.

3. In Sindh and in other parts of the country, the ruling parties always castigated the attackers holding them accountable for heinous crime. So did all the other major parties.

4. The above leaves only MMA and they too have recently begun to denounce the acts.
MMA perhaps represents 5% of Pakistani population.

My most important argument against crime by association is that then I, in my individual capacity, should always denounce whenever terrorism against minorities take place. This basically means that I am eternally accountable for any terrorist act against non-Sunnis even then by so called Sunnis that I will call terrorists. Each time a crime takes place, I should take it as if I committed it and stand up to absolve myself of the guilt writ against me.

By the same token then the western thinkers are right. Each time a terrorist attack takes place by a so called Muslim, all the Muslims should take responsibility and apologize to the world. But why have that apologetic attitude when we have nothing to do with those so called Muslims?

Won’t you then extend the same logic to non-Muslims who commit the same crime against us. For example, we should ask each and every single Hindu organization, journalist, educator, etc, to apologize to Muslims on Gujrat incident.

salim # 91 ``Why on earth would you say that the Indian civilization was the weakest or that it was looked down upon by others. ``

Salim sahib, Indian civilization lacked one essential ingredient that makes for a strong civilization - militaristic culture. Compared to Sinos, Persians and Arabs, Indians were never much of fighters. Persians and Arabs invaded Indian civilization almost at will. Whereas Sinos (the mongols) contributed hugely to bringing an end to the Arab civilization by sacking Baghdad. Indians dont figure in any of that. The farthest militaristic impact of Indian civilization was perhaps Kabul to the west and modern day Cambodia to the east.

When I said Japan will continue to do well within the context of Sino civilization, I did not mean to say that Japan would become Chinese. I meant that within the context of economic and militaristic clout that China is sure to hold in that region in particular and the world in general, and the treaties and the pacts and the alliances that Japan will have to make with the Sino civilization. Japan may very well stay a separate entity, however it is sure to be heavily influenced with the ``new order``. If however it ever comes on a collision course with Sinos civilization, then Japan may not be what it is today - politically, religiously, economically and even culturally.

Salim & Malik:

If Persians are taking over the Arab culture, then where does it leave existing Islam? If Islamic culture remains, then of course Arabic culture remains, even in a deformed form, that it may not be recognizable.

Some months ago, I asked one of my Iranian friends whether he thinks Iranianism is Shiaism. And he said, Yes. If that is so then, in my opinion, most Pakistanis love Iranians more than Arabs.

Also, how does Sufism plays in these equation? One sufi person informed me that Sufism is a new form os Zoroastrianism. I did not believe in this statement.

I would like to hear ya`lls opinions.

Respectfully submitted,

so far ahmedinijad has demonstrated one thing - that he has a big mouth. no shortage of big mouths in the world.

Behram #92, Stop looking in the mirror too much. :) I am not judging you.

Just generalizing my observations - positive and negative. Some call it prejudice, others term it experience. No chamcha geery here - Ah calls it like Ah sees it. :)

#90, behram,
How did I get that? By observation during college days and seeing couples at parties. Also, listening to anecdotes by several black acquaintances. It`s one of those facts that one gathers. I was only referring to US - East Coast, South, and CA.

Re: # 86 Salim_Chauhan:

[The reason I admire Persians is their emphasis on using brains and ability to negotiate results.] Yaar, are you serious? I always thought that the Persians were largely cheats. Generalizing of course.

[They tend to be very studious and hard-working] Again chamcha geeri, eh!

malik99 #88, {``But Japan is not a civilization. Japanese may continue to do well in the future, however, it would be in the context of Sino civilization. .. Indians on the other hand, had the weakest and the least diverse of these 4 civilizations. The other 3 civilizations historically looked down upon Indians as having a weak and unrefined culture. ``}

Malik Sahib,
I think that you are heading down a slippery academic slope. :) Japan is a country and yes, there was, is, and may be a Japanese civilization. You cannot simply lump it under Sino civilization. Japanese language, at least the spoken form, is related to Chinese about as much as Punjabi is related to Mandarin. While, Japanese borrowed Chinese characters for the Kanji script, you can compare that to Ataturk adopting Roman script for Turkish - that does not make Turkish civilization as part of Roman civilization.

Japan has distinct language, food, dress, customs, music, laws, religion (Shinto), and history that make it distinct from both Korean and Chinese civilizations. Of course places change hands, people convert to different religions,