An Alternative Spelling of Eed

``This is a thought-provoking article...``(soysauce)

what kind of `thoughts` -- Soysauce ji.....:)

I guess the brouhaha is to be expected. Believers are easily hurt when their myths are attacked. HOWEVER, why exactly is abraham such an exalted figure and what exactly is the sacrifice that is so gorily celebrated?
This is a thought-provoking article and I applaude FV for choosing to publish it.
Hasanji, what is your objection?

re: 61

Sattar Sahib,

Thats okay....having read your post, I updated my subscriptions to Klezmer! Today, and Citizens Concerned About the Advancement of White Folks, edited by Sam Alito. ;)

(re #58)
... sorry, I meant #56 ...

# 56

I think you are confused as to what values are. Here is a list. Which one do you think comes from a belief system as in religion. (With help from google)

Which faith has monopoly on these values? Why agnostics or atheist can`t share these values with the believers?

``Values are ideals that guide or qualify your personal conduct, interaction with others, and involvement in your career. Like morals, they

• help you to distinguish what is right from what is wrong and
• inform you on how you can conduct your life in a meaningful way.

Values can be classified into four categories:
• Personal Values
• Cultural Values
• Social Values
• Work Values

Personal Values: Caring Courage Creativity Friendliness Honesty Honor IndependenceIntegrity Spirituality

Cultural Values: Celebration of Diversity Ethnic roots Faith Linguistic ties National ties Regional ties Tradition

Social Values: Altruism Diversity Eco-consciousness Equality Fairness Family closeness Lovingness Morality Reliability

Work Values: Autonomy Competitiveness Conscientiousness Dedication Equanimity/Ethics Loyalty Professionalism Punctuality Remunerative worth Team player ``

Are there some other values that come from dogma that you are refering to?

Ps. I know too many questions but I am just trying to figure out what you actually mean by values.
Thanks.

# 56

A lot of assumptions there. I haven’t seen an agnostic who is rabidly anti human. And no, they don’t hate God because they don’t believe there is one. Besides they are not angry, some are perhaps exasperated at irrationality of believers. On the other hand religious fanatics have killed again and again.

#55 … and the hatred you feel towards whites folks, Jews, Ahmadis, and what-not … is a part of your religious values? What bubble are you living in??

And since when killing a person for rejecting your god become synonymous with loving the mankind?? Actually it is quite the opposite … isn’t it??

Either you are too cunning or too blind. Neither of the two is admirable.

#47 by Rizwan

Brother Rizwan,

Eed Mubarak and thank you for reading the article and, unlike others, making meaningful remarks. It is indeed for people like yourself that it is worth drugding in the khraafaat of the scriptures.

1. `alluded to no accomplishment of Ibrahim/the most respected Grand father`

Yes, Brother Rizwan. This is a point of frustration for kaka. Abraham just THOUGHT about sacrificing his son (the sickening part is that he almost did it). Compare this historical inaction with kaka`s THOUGHT of giving away half a billion dollars to the tsunami earthquake. None of the above happened. Just thoughts. As much as Abraham needs to be admired/condemned for his.. THOUGHTS, there is no historicity to his existence unlike the other men mentioned. This is assuming that no slaughtering happened.. unless you believe it did like some advertisers in 80s Pakistan.. Do you remember `Hazrat Ismaeel kay shaami kabaab`? How do you think they preserved the meat for thousands of years? Any Quranic science involved in this?

About the most amazing super duper grandfather award.., you are simply mistaken. Time magazine has already awarded this tamgha to this tranny on 48th street. Abraham was a close second, but got points shaved off for entertaining thoughts about wiping out his progeny.

2. `Secondly, real sacrifice was leaving Ismael in desert at a young age,/he was climbing up a hill ( is there any historical base for such assumption).`

Rizwan, my brother in Islam. Real sacrifice is leaving yourself in the desert at any age in your life. Leaving your son and concubine in the desert because you had too much to drink the previous night, gets you 10 years mandatory for criminal negligence reducible to 10 months on grounds of insanity. And you call this guy super duper daadaa abbaa?

Brother Rizwaan, please believe kaka that Abraham was climbing some hill or the other at some point of his life and contemplating slaughtering cow, goat, son, chicken, grapefruit etc. This isn`t like walking on water or splitting the moon, is it?

3. `Hajar Aswad was known to Arabs before Muhammad and had been associated to Abrahim by Quraish of that time; should we just discard this evidance?`

The Black Stone is not the same kidney stone that Abraham have had removed with the help of Akhtar Nai. The kidney stone was grounded to make surma for young Ismael`s slaughtering ceremony. The Black Stone is too big to be Abraham`s kidney stone and cannot be associated or owned by Abraham in any way.

4. `Aisha would say ``in the name of Rab of Abrahim``, this is another evidance.`

Brother, the story of Abraham in the Bible precedes any Aisha Paisha. Nobody is disputing that an old man with intentions to kill his son may have existed 5-10 (?) thousand years ago. They may have been several of them. kaka is just calling them potential murderers.

urustruly,

kaka is not an atheist. He believes that Allah exists. Its just that He is not to be paid much attention to. Is that a bad thing to say, brother?

# 55

Good point. Allow me to explain it with an example. Ask this question to the most rabid and vitriolic religionist, e.g a Hindu, that the hatered and anger that he expresses towards Muslims, for example, is it something mandated by his religion or is it a choice that he made? He would vigorously shake his head left and right and try to explain how beautiful and all inclusive his religion of Hinduism is and how it promotes love among all human beings. Same is true for any religion. Each and every religion teaches the value of love for the fellow human being as one of the most basic value. When a religionist expresses his hatered towards other human beings, he does so by violating that value; and he is conciously aware of it and yet his ego and his frustration is so strong that he ``choses`` to turn a blind eye towards his conscience. In this case there is a hope that one day he might respond to the constant poking of his conscience and mend his way.

But agnostics and atheists are a different kind of human beings. They are not angry with human beings but they are angry with God and reject Him and His values. The only way to express their anger is to take it upon their fellow human beings because God is above all that. He is absolute. He does not need our prayers and He is above the rebuke of humans. That is the reason Qura`n labels Rejectors and Agnostics or Kafirs as people who have lost hope. Logically, what aspiration a living entity would have if his universe is limited to fulfilling only his inherent desires. Religion has shown man that he is meant for something greater than that. His universe is greater than what he percieves with five senses; it is more expansive beyond the tip of his nose.

So when an agnostic has no hope, then logically he would not have any value. Values would force him to pull him out of the bubble he is most comfortable in. If you look at it, every value in this world is based on dogma; the empirical eveidence that we gather from our observations attest that values benefit us. If value is right then dogma that brought in that value must also be correct. In the last couple of centuries people like David Hume, Neitscze, Hagle, Kant, and Roussuo tried to come up with values that were not based on some dogma. They failed miserably. You and me should ask this question why they were trying to come up with values in the first place? That is because they realize that what makes us humans is the ``values``. It is because of our values, and laws that are based on those values human beings have created families, societies and civilizations. It is because of these values that has enabled human beings to land on the stars while mokeys are still swinging on the trees.

Urstruly,

Are you saying that people who purport to ``love`` God don`t ``take out their anger on their fellow human beings``?

It is interesting to see that people who are angry with God take out their anger on their fellow human beings. This is a typical behavioral trait of the so called rationalists, atheists, freethinkers, doubters, agnostics and such. On the other hand every religion in the world emphasises this value that loving your fellow human being is akin to loving God. This is a very delicate point if one understands. This is also a comparison between two systems of values - though I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values. They can have a (predictable) ``reaction`` to a certain stimulous at a certain time but they cannot have values.

It is interesting to see that people who are angry with God take out their anger on their fellow human beings. This is a typical behavioral trait of the so called rationalists, atheists, freethinkers, doubters, agnostics and such. On the other hand every religion in the world emphasises this value that loving your fellow human being is akin to loving God. This is a very delicate point if one understands. This is also a comparison between two systems of values - though I must emphasize once again that the so called rationaists, humanists, freethinkers, and agnostics cannot have values. They can have a (predictable) ``reaction`` to a certain stimulous at a certain time but they cannot have values.

Erm..

I know Salman Rushdie`s work, and you Hamzaad Sahib, are no Salman Rushdie.



I object to this for its utter banality. Kaka, you`ve aimed too close to the sun and into the sea you must fall, feathers a-molting....

Welcome to the writer`s world...not so smarmy now, are we? (lol)

What kind of kakka fills your head, oh kaka...
To come and spew it about like this is unbecoming.
Stick to your normal brand of infantile humour, at least it does not offend the reader (and his intelligence).
Hiding behind a façade of intellectualism will not help you, we can see through it.

Very disappointed in you, farzana. Dare I say your Ismaili roots are showing.

Umer M.

Many days I browse the Chowk site and end up thinking ``so much good stuff and so little time. How am I ever going to keep up ?``

And then sometimes I come across submissons like this! A quick ten second scan and you KNOW that this is not worth ANY attention. Not only that, you KNOW that Hamzaad needs to be on one`s (and everyone`s) ``do not disturb`` list.