Happy Holidays Versus Merry Christmas

#58, I don`t know about the vast Muslim world, but in most of the western world, including the good old US of A, one needs a valid license to practice the type of head shrinking that you have embarked upon. Diagnosing serious mental patients on an anonymous website is tantamount to quackery with a ``To Whom It May Concern`` abandonment. It`s like stuffing sanitary napkins in chewing gum dispensing machines at airports or practicing hymenoplastie in Uppa US without having even a taxidermist license. My posts don`t require any medication and therefore any results would be much like proof of your education - fabricated. Have a Happy New Year and if you can`t then just get drunk at least. :)

#52: I was not referring to Pakistan in my previous post. Don`t tell me that is the only place on earth where muslims celebrate eid :) Do look into Knowing the Enemy by Mary Habeck. By the way, you have the choice to live and breathe in the system of your choice. If this system is not up to your taste, then I am sure the civilized muslim world is pretty vast. Why not exercise the option of living there? It will save you from wishing anyone Merry XMas or Happy Hannukah.

#51: You need treatment for your charming facade aka bipolar disorder. Make sure you are on appropriate medication when you interact on Chowk. I expect you to come back with post medication results. Good luck :)

55:

and what do you mean?

56: You are right. I should have said ``western``

What do you exactly call a proper christian name. To me Yousaf is as christian and islamic as Joseph. Like so for Abraham and Ibrahim. The focus is the person (mostly prophet) after which one is named.

Re: # 54

``You`ll notice that the anglo and the goan will have proper Christain names but the ones that were converted by different pepople (non anglo/goan) still have their old names.

The same is the case in Pakistan. Most Punjabi Christains still have names like Salim Masih, whereas Masih is the only indication that they are Christains.``

I rest my case.

47 # Parthaab:
I disagree with you when you say that they are shy to keep Christian names. Depending where you live, find an anglo Indian, a goan and someone who was converted in the last 50 - 60 years. You`ll notice that the anglo and the goan will have proper Christain names but the ones that were converted by different pepople (non anglo/goan) still have their old names.

The same is the case in Pakistan. Most Punjabi Christains still have names like Salim Masih, whereas Masih is the only indication that they are Christains.

Look at the example of Christain in Pakistani Cricket:
Duncan Sharpe: http://content.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/42673.html
Wallis Mathias: http://content.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/41278.html
and then you had Yousuf who had a typical Punjabi Christain name.

So if your family has been a Christain for a few centuries then it is most likely they would have proper Christain names.

re: doublec # 42

I seriously doubt that the Portugese would have cared too much for the religious sentiments or sensitivities of Hindus :)

Of course, some actual information could well prove me wrong.

#43, no that was not a generalization~ the mass society in the US relects a very high level of bureaucratization, corporate culture has totally colonized culture based upon social tradition, we physically see the effects in the city scene. That transition has not been completed to the same extent in Pakistan, here is a link that explains part of it http://robots.asadi.org

#50, Thank you so much. My aim is to please. I commend your cutzpah in wishing me ``Chappy Chanukah.`` Speaking of good wishes, as President DeGaul once said. ``I `ope you find `appines whereever you go.`` :)

Re: # 46
thank you for proving my point!
belated happy hannukah!

Re: # 48

Its not just about Christmas. Christians are generally shy of declaring themselves in India.

1.) Christians are shy about naming their children with proper christian names!

So instead of Paul, they name them Pandian (in South India)

2.) And not only names, but nowadays they are even shy of building their own style of churches!

So instead we have temples built that are called churches!

3.) And not only churches - christians are shy about even dressing the way they used to!

So now we have `bindis` that look exactly like the Hindu ones and sarees and other clothes to `match`.


Funny....have I somehow described a pattern somewhere?

In my opinion, Christmas as it’s celebrated in the US is primarily a pagan festival. It is dedicated to the worship of the deity in which Americans most sincerely believe, namely Mammon. The Christian stuff is mostly an afterthought. This ‘controversy’ is almost a non-issue.

Here is a link to the lyrics of a satirical Christmas Carol by Tom Lehrer which admirably captures the true spirit of Christmas as observed in the US.

Re: # 42

``I guess it is upto us ``Desi`s`` to make sure that we say ``Merry Christmas`` to them and let them know that we are not offended by it.... ``

Not only christmas, but christians are shy about naming their children with proper christian names!

So instead of Paul, they name them Pandian (in South India)

And not only names, but nowadays they are even shy of building their own style of churches!

So instead we have temples built that are called churches!

And not only churches - christians are shy about even dressing the way they used to!

So now we have `bindis` that look exactly like the Hindu ones and sarees and other clothes to `match`.

Funny....have I somehow described a pattern somewhere?

#45, ZahraJ {``Apparently, you have logos, ethos and pathos all in one. Wow! ``}

Zehra,
Now that you have bestowed all the Greek qualities on me, let me wish you some Roman ones - I think you are ridiculous, abnoxious, and atrocious - all in one and more, did I mention ludicrous, malicious, and frivolous?

Re: # 44

[You are overly sensitive.]

And, you are not ? That`s why on each board on Chowk you are there to defend the poor men of the world. Apparently, you have logos, ethos and pathos all in one. Wow!

ZahraJ #43, {`` hope the new year helps you in overcoming your tendency of writing flippant remarks. You do not have to be a shia to respect muharram or any other religious occasion. No one wishes anyone happy muharram.``}

ZahraJ,
It`s OK. I think you are being a bit too sensitive here. I said ``Just don`t say Happy Moharram to a Shia.``}
What`s so wrong about that? First of all, I am a Shia myself, so just like the ``N`` word, there is a license in being one. Second, I didn`t state that one says ``Happy Moharram.`` I stated the opposite. Please get a drink or two to loosen up. It`s the holidays and as the article seems to portray - You are overly sensitive. Just for that I am cancelling my donation for modernizing ladies` restrooms in Paki airports.
Meanwhile, thank you for the kind wishes for the new year. Now, we both have something to work on.

Re: # 38
Isn`t that a generalization? Each society dwells on consumerism in its own way. It`s the same on Eid and any other occasion in everywhere in the world. I know where you are headed with your pointer. I am sorry I am not willing to blame any society. It is an individual`s preference.

Re:# 36
I hope the new year helps you in overcoming your tendency of writing flippant remarks. You do not have to be a shia to respect muharram or any other religious occasion. No one wishes anyone happy muharram. I understand you are used to playing silly pranks, but this is not funny at all.

Happy holidays!!!!!!

These goras are stupid. Why would immigrants be offended if someone said ``Merry Christmas`` to them. I guess it is their good nature of wishing everyone daily....i.e good morning, that has landed them in this situation. So now, not to offend people they say ``happy holidays``, but honestly would non Christians be offended if someone said ``Merry Christmas`` to them? I don`t think so. I guess it is upto us ``Desi`s`` to make sure that we say ``Merry Christmas`` to them and let them know that we are not offended by it....

By the way i celebrate Christmas and they say ``Happy Holiday`s`` to me too....... it is so sad......

Reading through the ``posts`` i noticed an e-mail about ``goans`` and them saying ``compliments of the season`` and something struck me..... my family moved from Goa in the early 1900`s to Karachi and to this day call themselves goans (surprises me sometimes) Anyways my uncle used to wish us ``compliments of the seasons`` instead of Merry Christmas and i as a kid thought that he wanted to be cool by say it.
Now that i realize it the Portuguese would have used it so that not to offend the Hindu`s of Goa........ thus i say ``the goars are stupid`` in being so sensitive.

Dost-mittar:
Let me explain my views one more time; you may not agree with them but here they are. America is a secular state and very proud of it. The liberals and the non-believers object to Merry Christmas on religious grounds. The businesses and other commercial establishments are under no obligation to display banners of Merry Christmas; of course they will do so if they believe they can attract more customers.
Pakistan is a religious state; its constitution is religion based. Any thing improper from religious viewpoint is blasphemous and the perpetrators may have to pay a heavy price for that. India is secular but its secularism is of a different form. Religion is not totally banished from the government affairs. So comparing America with India and Pakistan is not a fair comparison; it`s apples and oranges.
Another thing that I had written in my article to which you made a reference but many others probably overlooked, is that it is not really a problem of the immigrants. The immigrants are by and large flexible. This is the problem of the natives.
Mohammad Gill

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I think that Christians have every reason to be upset. You correctly point out that the situation has been the creation of native Americans themselves. But I would go further and say that the situation has been created by political correctness gone haywire when some liberal Americans presumed (wrongly, as you correctly point out) that non-christian sensitivities will be affected by the use of Merry X-Mas.

But why should the silent majority of Christians be not upset by stores using Holidays instead of X-Mas? The best way to understand the other person`s feelings is to put yourself in his or her shoes. How would we feel if stores in Pakistan and India were asked to replace Id or Diwali with some neutral terms because non-muslims or non-hindus would be offended?

#37 what spirit? The spirit of consumerism? The human spirit was destroyed long ago in this society.

Freethinker:

Thank you for the sweet wishes.

Hope you have a beautiful snowfall on the Xmas eve!

Take Care and enjoy the spirit!

Regards.

Gill Sahib,
I wish this were the biggest problem facing mankind today. :) Thank you for raising something that we all find very awkward every year. Christmas is a cultural even in addition to being a religious one - as are Eid, Easter, Diwali, and Holi. I find nothing wrong with saying Merry Christmas to Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. It is a fact, you can`t ignore it, it`s a good occasion, a happy occasion and I see nothing wrong in joining others in celebrating a great person`s alleged birthday. Of course, I have a problem with Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell telling us to do anything - even telling us to tie our shoes. :)

So, let`s stop hiding behind the superficial, pasteurized, and nonsensical ``Happy Holidays.``
Just don`t say Happy Moharram to a Shia.

Re: # 33

Why do you finger places you shouldnt........

Dont address me again....

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Re: # 30

Yes, do read Maureen Daud. Specially her latest finding, ``Are Men Necessary?`` :)

ZahraJ:
I apologise. In fact, I wanted to wish you Merry Christmas but didn`t, thinking you might take it wrong. Never mind; better late than never. And really it`s not late it is just timely.
ZahraJee, Merry Christmas and Season`s greetings.
Mohammad Gill

Whats there not to like about O` Reily..

What a Model Christian....

Such Piety, Such compassion, such all encompassing love like Jesus

Such an unabashed look in the eyes.....

One must listen to his views on the Holy box with two knobs....

One can turn one knob on and the other one off,

or there is always the twentieth century modern invention called the REMOTE Control.


Gil Sahib, Turn the damn machine off while O Reily is spewing forth his fountain of never ending widsom


Try Reading Maureen Dowd sometimes... You will have to pay for Times Select at the NY times.... but I am sure you can get it....

by the way we have heard excuses, an honest apology should take care of all the offence we may have taken...

Freethinker,

I am fine with the drift of the article. I am a little surprised that you took it to your heart. Perhaps, you should have attended a few Xmas events (in 2005) to test the waters before expressing your concerns. Don`t get me wrong, I really like O`Rielly (hawkish, brazen, and twisted). Now, I am kind of offended that you did not wish me a ``Merry Xmas`` :) That`s a killer!

ZahraJ:
The article was not inspired by my ex-colleagues; it was inspired by the discussion on TV as I mentioned in the article. People like Oreilly are making a big deal out of it. They are the ones who are complaining that the liberals and the athiets are taking Christ out of Christmas.
I mentioned in the article that I became aware only recently that they are offended (beyond belief) if they are greeted Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Wishing you a happy new year (and Season`s greetings),
Mohammad Gill

Re: # 23

I am a little lost. I think you should have written this article after your latest experience. What was the sense of this article when you concluded yourself that no one or very few cared for Merry Xmas vs. Happy Holidays? Mohtaram freethinker: I thought New Yorkers were the only ones who were affected by the strike :)

watch this clip - Sam Seder on War on Christmas

Re: # 23

Hai Allah Ye Nusrani!!

Toba Toba Ye Kaafir!!


Kyon Gaye thay aap Christmas Party mein.... wohi Turkey, Wohi Stuffing, wohi Cranberry Sauce, wohi Yam with Pineapples, Wohi Green Bean Casserole, if you are very lucky a little bit of Honey Cured Ham. Oh mY god. Did I say Ham. Now my zuban will be na paak for forty days.


Anyhow. I liked your articles always. Perhaps you should stick with academia and leave social commentary to those who understand. Your point was valid yet expressed in a rude and very offensive manner. I got offended on my American neighbor`s behalf. I am sorry, I was taught that in school in Pakistan. `` Treat thy neighbor as thine own self``

Magar gaye woh zamaney....
Gayi Woh Tehzeeb.....
Aa Gayeen Zulmaat-e- Nigar-ul-Haq

Na rahin Fatima
Na Rahe Muhammad Ali
Na Rahi Edwina,
Na Rahey Nehru,

Maha Aatma ko Mokhsha dey dali
waqt bey waqt

Ayub ka Raj aaya phir

Phir Sindh sey ek awaz aayi

Mein Dharti ka beta hoon, sirif Sharab thodi peeta hoon

Phir Pindi sey jawab aaya, Sir, Aap ki ye Jurrat

Ab saza lo, Phansi ka phanda Pehno aur Hamesha ke liye chup ho jao

Hudood Ordinance aur Jamaat e Islami ka Nikah howa

Jamaat Baarat le ke aayi FATA sey

Aur Pakistani Aurat ko Band Doli mein Bitha key Ley Gayi

Asma Lagi howi hai kub sey

koshish mein

Mujhay aazaad karo
Mein bhi Beti hoon Is Paak sarzameen ki

Mein bhi maan hoon tumharey Bacchon ki

Mein Zoja Mutahharra hoon tumhari

Meri izzat karo

Yaad karo Amna key Betay ka Aakhri Khutba akhri Hajj pey

Kya Kaha tha us ney jis pey Subh-o-Shaam Durood Bhejtey ho


Magar chalo.....

Qudrat ki Sitam Zarifi hai....


God Bless Sister Mary Cecille at Convent of Jesus and Mary Lahore.....

Merry Christmas Sister.....

May you have a blessed Christmas

May you attend Mass and sing

Maryam Nawaz Shariff knows Sister Mary Cecille

Benazir Bhutto is acquainted as well

So are countless daughters of the Jagirdaars of Pakistan....

They all know Sister Mary Cecille....

Re: # 2
>(funnily, Portugal has changed so much, the Goans are still living in the 1930s, even their local Portuguese language is outdated by many decades).<

:) So true. Same case with Christians in Karachi. Wonder what the reasons could be?

Well, I went to the Christmas party and you know what! Nobody greeted me or any body else Merry Christmas. It was quite a large party with people of many different ethnicities and religions. Majority of them of course were Christians. If you don`t make it a religious issue, it ceases to be an issue. Everyone had fun, food and drinks (non-alcoholic). All of them were passing Happy Holidays around. I mumbled to some of them Merry Christmas but nobody took any particular notice. People by and large are decent; religion tends to distort them out of shape and creates unnecessary problems. Peace be with you,
Mohammad Gill

Re: # 16
This is not your trucking Pakistan where it is illegal for non Mulims to say Salam-o-Lakum ``...to someone. Perhaps you should worry more about that....``

You are not Kidding are you? You are not making this up ? Salaam-.....`` simply means peace be with you. Is it not? Why is it forbidden?

Re: # 6

Mein tu kuch bhi Nahi

Sirif Asim

May God bless the spirit of the Late Anne Marie Schimmel and keep her near....

LAT via Chicago Trib....link requires registration so use bugmenot..

Taking the Christmas Out of Christ
Even as conservatives rail against what they say is secularization of the holiday, some Christian churches forbid its observance.

By Larry B. Stammer
Times Staff Writer
Published December 21, 2005

It was just a few nights before Christmas as Pastor Santos Carrasco, smiling broadly, sat in his small storefront church in Echo Park strumming his guitar and singing of God`s goodness.

``How good God is. How good he is,`` Santos sang out in Spanish. ``He forgives my sin. How good he is.``

But whatever else the pastor would sing that night — or any other time this week including Saturday or Sunday — it wouldn`t be Christmas carols. Neither Christmas trees nor presents are thought appropriate.

Carrasco and his Christian congregation of 60 mainly Central American immigrants at the Iglesia de Dios La Nueva Jerusalem (Church of God the New Jerusalem) believe in Jesus as Lord. But they don`t keep Christmas.

``There is nothing biblical`` in the yuletide celebrations, said Carrasco, 56. ``And we only practice what Jesus orders us to practice.``

What`s worse, he continued, Christmas was ungodly, a time of revelry, including drunkenness and ``pleasures of the flesh. They are not celebrating God,`` he said.

Carrasco is not alone. A few Christian churches to this day dismiss Christmas with a polite theological humbug, among them a small number of independent Pentacostal churches such as Carrasco`s, and the larger and better known Jehovah`s Witnesses. Others, such as the Church of Christ, Scientist, avoid much of the pageantry and merriment.

They used to have more company. Even some major denominations, including Baptists, which today trumpet the birth of Jesus with carols and yuletide symbols, dismissed Christmas as unimportant, even pagan, until the early 19th century. Another was the Pasadena-based Worldwide Church of God, which until a major theological upheaval in 1995 had forbidden its members to celebrate Christmas. Some members then left the church and affiliated with breakaway churches that continue to hold Christmas at bay.

There has long been tension over how Christmas should be observed. But the issue has taken on a new urgency this year among Christian conservatives who are pushing for more explicit recognition of the holiday.

Some groups are calling for boycotts of stores which ring in — and ring up — the season with ``Happy Holidays`` greetings and advertising instead of ``Merry Christmas.`` The Family Research Council, a conservative advocacy group in Washington, is promoting a new book by John Gibson called ``The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought.``

Even President Bush, who has come to represent the face of Christian evangelicalism in the White House, came under fire recently for sending out religiously neutral holiday cards with nary a mention of Christmas.

But for all the pleas to ``keep Christ in Christmas,`` Christmas has not always been, well, Christian.

The day that Christians today think of Jesus` birthday was marked in pre-Christian days by midwinter agricultural and solar observances.

Although no one knows when Jesus was born, his birth was celebrated on Dec. 25 in Rome as early as AD 336 as an ascendant Roman Catholic Church preempted the pagan celebrations. Most Eastern Orthodox churches later accepted that date too, although the Armenian church retains Jan. 6.

``It`s the way Europe got Christianized. The pope would write letters to the bishops saying let them keep doing what they are doing as long as they change the name,`` said Stephen Nissenbaum, a professor of history at the University of Massachusetts and author of ``The Battle for Christmas,`` which traces the evolution of the holiday.

Not until the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, Nissenbaum said, was such accommodation challenged.

Followers of Reformation leader John Calvin argued that Christmas was unbiblical. Like Pastor Carrasco in Echo Park, they also decried how Christmas was being observed. In 1647, Oliver Cromwell persuaded the British Parliament to make the holiday illegal, terming it both ``papist and pagan.`` The law didn`t last.

C.H. Spurgeon, a famous Baptist preacher at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, declared in 1871: ``We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas.``

It is a refrain still heard today. In a current posting on their website, Jehovah`s Witnesses explain their reasons for not observing Christmas: ``Surely God never intended Christ`s birth to eclipse his life as a mature man. Yet, Christmas has succeeded in obscuring the person of Christ in a mire of Nativity legends and folklore.``

While the vast majority of other Christians prepared to celebrate Christmas with concerts and candlelit church services, there was not much evidence of the Christmas season earlier this week at Pastor Carrasco`s church on Glendale Boulevard, next door to a doughnut shop.

Freethinker,

I agree with you that the religion of the majority is not the religion of everyone. But when you are around (at work) 100% non-muslims, you ought to be sensitive to the sensitivities of others. I have never encountered the issue you have narrated. Based on my observations, the culture in different parts of the US is quite different in terms of the thought process. When I was in the Midwest, my Catholic friends wanted me to join them for the special ceremonies at their churches. I did that. In those days, I was interested in visiting the local mosques. As a result, they also joined me for iftar dinners (out of sheer curiosity). Just recently, I had a good friend over for a ``holiday lunch`` and both of us recited our own prayers before we started the meal. That`s the beauty of a pluralistic society.

Happy holidays to you :)

Thank you for your time everyone and goodbye to you all. It was fun, I learned quite a bit hopefully you all did too. Since CHOWK is baselessly censoring all of my articles, in protest, I will not be posting here anymore, until they get rid of their biased pro-US elite stance. You all are welcome to visit http://www.asadi.org and use the forum over there

#16, Kulharee Sahib, thank you for these (ignorant) pearls of wisdom. My people aren`t the ``holiday`` or the ``christmas`` group. Frankly these are non-issues as far as I am concerned, thrown out for distracting the US public, away from important things: start fighting a ``war on Christmas`` when the ``war on Terrorism`` becomes unpopular. I didn`t know they outlawed non Muslims from saying salam aleykum in Pakistan! What will they think of next!

By the way, that pony story is not part of Islam if you are trying to use it to discredit it. The other things you mention, besides the obvious distortions are not as difficult to envision, than the ``miracle`` of life originating on earth, how the universe evolved from a singularity, how you developed a sophisticated seeing apparatus and so on. These are the real ``fairy`` tales that men of science don`t understand but enshroud in complicated tapestry. Those things you mention are a cakewalk compared to the above.

Good day and ``Happy Holidays``.

Re: # 15

Asadi Sahib, Do you watch Fox news? Why am I not surprised.

I don’t think that evangelical Christians will let someone of your views come within 200 miles of them, so you can forget about wishing them anything.

Meanwhile, you can use your energy to convince your own people (the Holiday people) about respecting all religions and not just their own. Don’t worry about right wing fundamentalists (you come across as one yourself) because there’s nothing you can do to make them change their minds. Their minds are made up. Let me give you an example, I am willing to buy some old man taking a Pony to heavens and back, an old Jews parting the Red Sea, a good man healing the sick and curing the blind, and someone with a homemade dinghy with all the earthly animals in it… I am willing to buy all of that, but I could give a truck. My spiritual side makes me want to be respectful to those who believe in such kindergarten stories. If I could make someone’s inner child happy, I would have found nirvana.

This is not your trucking Pakistan where it is illegal for non Mulims to say Salam-o-Lakum to someone. Perhaps you should worry more about that.

Marry Christmas and ho ho ho.

#9 Kulharee Sahib, very touching declaration of faith from you. Your BS aside, you talk about sensibilities of the fundamentalist Christians, what about Muslim sensibilities when the Fox News Channel presents and condemns them 24/7 as universal terrorists or when these miserable evangelical leaders go on the air and call the prophet a terrorist? These evangelicals can take their sensibilities and shove them. Thank you for your time.

The article (M.Gill) says <<< Then I heard a discussion on the TV and came to understand that it indeed was a big deal with many Christians who preferred the greetings of Merry Christmas >>>

Let`s go to the root of this imagined ``war on Christmas`` that the conservatives in the US are fighting. It started with John Gibson of Fox News writing this stupid book ``The War on Christmas``, then he got his buddy Bill O`Reilly to come on board with it. Mere distraction tactics. Then they started talking bad to their tens of millions of viewers about businesses that say ``happy holidays`` instead of ``merry christmas``, and arranging protests outside their doors, so many businesses fearing loss of sales changed their greeting to merry christmas compared to happy holidays.

Now, Jesus was not born on December the 25th, In 350 AD Bishop of Rome, Julius I, choose December 25th as the observance of Christmas, centuries after Jesus. Why it was chosen had more to do with political expediency than religious observance. Nonetheless these are non-issues as the author alludes to as well- there are lot more important things going on in the world. Some evangelical act as if this country belongs to their papa or mama and they can force their traditions and religion down people`s throat, they are sadly mistaken. ``Go to hell`` I tell them and ``happy holidays``

Re: # 10

This silly excessive fixation with religion is too much for me. I have decided to send greetings on an EMail nowadays. It is so much cheaper than postage.!

BTW not all Christian friends of mine could care less about Christmas too!

Re: # 10

Happy Holidays to you too Gill Sahib. Your point was understood very well, and it is very valid and legitimate. No one should be expected to expect just “their” type of greetings to be the only greetings. In my office we have 80% Jews, myself, a Hindu, and the rest Christians of various denominations. It is not uncommon for Me (an Ahmadi) wishing Happy Easter to a Jew and her discussing Palm Sunday with the Hindu.

Happy Holidays

``Tasmayee Shri Gurv-e-Namaha ``
i salute such a Guru.

happy holidays was brought in by aethist and topiwallas ..the ACLU types. while this is an issue this year, nativity scenes on public property have been an issue for ever.

reminds of a time when Lallu Prasad the railway minister banned singing of Bhajans by commuters in Bombay trains.

A point of clarification. I said in the article that it`s not my problem. I have been greeting my friends every which way and they responded graciously. It is neither a problem of most of the immigrants because they are quite flexible. It`s a big deal with the (fundamental) Christians who believe that if we don`t utter ``Merry Christmas,`` we`re diminishing Christ or Christianity. And also with the non-believers who think the Christians are foisting their religion on them,
I am going today to a Christmas party hosted by my ex-colleagues. It`s Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays again. Happy Hunnukah is also welcome. In case, I don`t come around to this board before 2006, Happy New Year to you all.
Mohammad Gill

>>>>The Religion of the majority is not the religion of everyone. I do not have any problem, never had one, in greeting my Christian friends with a “Merry Christmas” but if they tell me that is the only way of greeting, I would rather not greet them at all. <<<

Gill Sahib, Greetings and Merry Christmas. I don’t believe that “you” having any problem or not makes any difference. Neither would your greeting them or not greeting them. It’s just a simple gesture to show respect to peoples’ sensibilities. What you believe is irrelevant. If you tell me that you worship monkey’s balls, I will wish you Happy Monkey’s Balls day.

Jesus saves!

Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee could give a jack about Weinacht. That’s the kind of guy he was, and he would pray for all of us equally whether we wished someone Merry Christmas or not. He is the lord.

Jesus rocks!

Hi,
It was as descriptive as we normally face around such faces of the globe, though religions and thoughts immerging from soul cannot be distracted/imposed in such fashions. That`s quite realistic approach to apprehend, appreciate and keep harmony in the society making sure nothing harms to and by me in my surroundings. Whatever the views different people possess regarding this is very personal and before analysing/commenting something we should make sure that my right hand will appear left in a mirror.
Regards,

Once this is resolved...we really have to stop people saying ``khuda Hafiz``...it is Allah Hafiz, ya nins.

ShoreSahib

You, my friend, show every sign of being a Sufi. Are you one?

Re:1

Bhagwan re Bhagman. Neech aur Chandaalon ko A-Naye hi Nazar aata hai, Nyaye nahi!

Jeevan bita diya, magar Sunmati nahi aayi!

Pooochtay hein kein Mata Durga inn Dhusht papiyon ka Sarvnash kyon kare gi.

Maha Kali Tandav kyon kare gi.

aur MahaDev Aankh kyon, kub, kesay kholay gaa.

Brahma Vardaan kub deyn gay.

Saraswati kub Gaye gi..

aur Manav ko kub Shanti milay gi....

Hai Ram..... Kali Yuga kis kis Bhed mein Manav ko Satata hai......

Here is a translation from Hindi for those on Chowk that maynot know....

So Sayeth ShoreSahib......

`` Lord O Lord...,The Crass, the ones without class, and evil mongers see only Injustice, not Justice.``

You spent your life, but alas common sense arrived upon you not.......

haha

They ask,`` When will Mother Durga punish the Sinners?

The Great Kali, Shiva`s Dance of Destruction.......

When will Lord Creator Brahama give Boons again..........

When will Mother Saraswati Sing again......

When will this Man find Peace.........

O Lord Rama, Thou tell me.... In which forms this Age of Kali Yuga torments MAN.........

Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti hi.........

Guru Brahma, Guru Vaishnu, Guru Devo Maheshwara
Guru Sakhshat Para Brahma, Tasmayee Shri Gurv-e-Namaha
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti



This above is the Guru Vandana....
One starts ones daily tasks in the morning by reciting it in staccato rhythm in the morning....
My Teacher is the Creator form Brahma, My Teacher is the Preserver form Vaishnu, My Teacher is the Great Ascetic and powerful Mahesh ``Shiva``.

My Teacher is only the Pure Brahma.... I forget the translation of the last verse... I shall find out.....

God is Peace, God is Peace..... God is Peace....


On a lighter note,
What did the Dervish say to the Hindu Ascetic........

Absolutely Nothing, They were both busy with prayer. Didnt have time to point fingers.... WINK

Re:1

Bhagwan re Bhagman. Neech aur Chandaalon ko A-Naye hi Nazar aata hai, Nyaye nahi!

Jeevan bita diya, magar Sunmati nahi aayi!

Pooochtay hein kein Mata Durga inn Dhusht papiyon ka Sarvnash kyon kare gi.

Maha Kali Tandav kyon kare gi.

aur MahaDev Aankh kyon, kub, kesay kholay gaa.

Brahma Vardaan kub deyn gay.

Saraswati kub Gaye gi..

aur Manav ko kub Shanti milay gi....

Hai Ram..... Kali Yuga kis kis Bhed mein Manav ko Satata hai......

Here is a translation from Hindi for those on Chowk that maynot know....

So Sayeth ShoreSahib......

`` Lord O Lord...,The Crass, the ones without class, and evil mongers see only Injustice, not Justice.``

You spent your life, but alas common sense arrived upon you not.......

haha

They ask,`` When will Mother Durga punish the Sinners?

The Great Kali, Shiva`s Dance of Destruction.......

When will Lord Creator Brahama give Boons again..........

When will Mother Saraswati Sing again......

When will this Man find Peace.........

O Lord Rama, Thou tell me.... In which forms this Age of Kali Yuga torments MAN.........

Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti hi.........

Guru Brahma, Guru Vaishnu, Guru Devo Maheshwara
Guru Sakhshat Para Brahma, Tasmayee Shri Gurv-e-Namaha
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti



This above is the Guru Vandana....
One starts ones daily tasks in the morning by reciting it in staccato rhythm in the morning....
My Teacher is the Creator form Brahma, My Teacher is the Preserver form Vaishnu, My Teacher is the Great Ascetic and powerful Mahesh ``Shiva``.

My Teacher is only the Pure Brahma.... I forget the translation of the last verse... I shall find out.....

God is Peace, God is Peace..... God is Peace....


On a lighter note,
What did the Dervish say to the Hindu Ascetic........

Absolutely Nothing, They were both busy with prayer. Didnt have time to point fingers.... WINK

Gill Sahib,
Ab bas bhi. Allah ka naam lijeye.
Tu tu hai, aur mein mein hun. You are you, I am me. You are Christian, I am Muslim, the third Person must be Hindu. Yunhi Zindagi Tamam ho gaye gi, aur kya ho ga aap ki zindagi ka haasil.
Faqat sirif, `` You are Christian, I am Muslim``

What is wrong with saying Merry Christmas. Kya Musalmaan Chota ho jata hai apney Christian Bhai ko Merry Christmas keh key. Kaun si Annaa Majrooh hoti hai.

You know If I was a Christian, I would not have the likes of you Greet me either.
Keep your prejudices, and Greetings to yourself.
They are not required.
Jo baat dil sey nahi nikalti, woh asr nahi rakhti. `` What is not meant genuinely, has absolutely no meaning`` So keep quibbling as always upon your wondefully poignant non nothing points.


Gill Sahib,
What kind of point of view is that. The Religion is Christianity of this country, and it informs the basic psyche of the people whether they be white or black Irish, Scottish, Protestant English and Germanics, The very Roman Catholic Italians and Hispano-espanols. Yes, these people in their waves of immigration combined with the Amercican Can-do spirit and wild sense of the frontier have come up with their own versions of Christianity and the written word. But so be it.
If Muslims can create 72 Firqaas, and Hindus can divide and kill over their sects of Shaivites and Vaishnavites, then why not the Christians and their peaceful denominations.

Their wishing of Christmas, a full meal at the table with family, with grandparents, with cousins, aunts, uncles, mothers, father, Stockings filled with little presents of kindness and concern thought of but not shown throughout the year. A time to harken back to Tradition of times past in the fast paced life.

Alas, your ego is more important than ever understanding the American people`s psyche behind Christmas celebration of the Northern European ethnicity. I dont include the African Americans because even they for whatever reason took the Northern European sense of God, Christ in their daily lives and made it their own.

Allah, You despise their ways. Want them to respect yours without learning why they do what they do. Judging them superficially, You make the rest of us who care and love our American Brethren look bad. We have no ulterior motives behind loving our neighbors.
Some of us just do, because that is the right thing to do and the Human one.
I wish you could understand.

Doc,

Happy Hannukah to you!

Burp

For five years, I lived in Goa. This state, although it has more Hindus than Catholics, is famous for its `Portuguese` culture (funnily, Portugal has changed so much, the Goans are still living in the 1930s, even their local Portuguese language is outdated by many decades). Although the greeting `compliments of the season` solves the problem of who`s wishing who, the stress on Christmas and christianity can`t be escaped. The Carnival (yes, it`s spelt with two `a`s) is sold as a tourist attraction, even though the Shigmo, but a month later and as exciting and ethnic, is ignored. I love all the decor and excitement of Christmas, thanks to a Public School education, but I find the other festivals equally interesting. We share the joy of the Christians. Am finding it increasingly difficult to find other communities sharing our festivals as happily. Perhaps the fault lies in the fact that we`ve made our celebrations so noisy, crowded and dirty, that they just don`t create either a `fun` or `holy` atmosphere.
We need to introspect at how we celebrate.

Christian fanaticism is as alive and kicking (though not shouting) as islamic and Hindu fanaticism.

The BIG difference is that christian fanaticism is Silent - it does not wear the cross on every concievable corner, it does not expect you to wear ridiculous clothes and make up and be different, or to cry `Halleluja` whle dropping bombs to kill millions of non-christians.

Thats how 21st century religious `cold` wars are fought.

Yes. Welcome to the world of religious fanaticism.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2664985.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4136690.stm