Nowhere: The Utopian Destination

ahmedzai/43 says ``4. Lahore of course has no match in Indian Punjab. ``

Really?

Please let us know on what parameters you base this conjecture or theory or whatever.

#43:

You are entitled to your utopian views (contradicting what you say about Pakistan delivering for the Muslims of the Asian sub-con would mean going against the gist of my article, which you say you did not understand!)

However, I need to question a couple of your other assertions...

1. In India we do not have ``Indian Muslim cities``, so the question of developing them along communal lines does not arise. Even Ajmer Sharif has a dargah, but in no way is it a Muslim city.

Re. Karachi being the fastest metro after the 40s, how fast is fast? And what are you comparing it with -- Kabul or Kolkata?

2. I have no idea why you are comparing cities in Pakistan with those of other countries. I have been to peshawar and I like it for reasons that I cannot describe here, but on what grounds can you call it a success? What is the ``splendor of Dera Ismail Khan, Mardan, Nowshera, Kohat, Hazara`` about? The last time I was at Dera I managed to buy smuggled perfume (just for kicks). Btw, Afghan rugs sell...is there something like Peshawari carpets?

Utopia does not mean turning a blind eye.
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#40, 41, 42 cannot be commented on lest it be deemed not relevant to the article. Irreverence (in context) is always welcome!

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Gill saab:

Aapko bhi naya saal mubarak ho...kaash yeh sirf rasm nahi hota...

I suppose this is infectious...so best wishes to everyone. May we all follow guidelines, smile when we are filtered out and learn to have a civil dialogue even as we grit our teeth!

To all Chowkies:

Haiy tau yeh rasm-e-zamanah, lekan phir bhi
Ho mubarak tumhain yeh saal nya, meray rafiq

Happy New Year

Mohammad Gill

This is a very strange article. I could not get the gist of the article. However, I can say with conviction that Pakistan delivered for the Muslims of Asian sub-continent. Pakistanis of all ethnic origins can safely claim that Pakistan provided them an environment to make their centres of power utopian in Asian subcontinent.

1. The residents of Sindh made Karachi the fastest metropolitan city developed after 1940s. If India were a utopian secular state then why were not the Indian Muslims able to develop their cities like Lucknow, Meerith, Ajmer Sharif, etc. With the city`s administration back in hands where it belongs, it is just a matter of time before the city will show exemplery progress once again.

2. Pakistani Pakhtoons are better off than Afghan Pakhtoons. Peshawar is an example of success. There is no city in Afghanistan which could match the spelndor of Peshawar. Some of my cousins who sing the praises of Afghanistan and dream of making Pakhtoonistan are left speechless when this example is given. Not only this, but Afghanistan failed to develop any city that could match the splendor of Dera Ismail Khan, Mardan, Nowshera, Kohat, Hazara, etc.

3. Quetta is a better city than any other city in Iranian Balochistan.

4. Lahore of course has no match in Indian Punjab.

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#39 this is moving the goal post as we say in the codified western sports lingo ;-)
you were critical of the western system while prsising the estern. the mush was not scared of the eastern sysetm..he was frothing because he was scared of bad press, that simple. bad press in WASHINGTON. Strong ctitical press itself is a pillar of western system. so curb your urge to whitewash..are you on a lifafa or is it just the normal feeling of brotherhood?

anyhoo, i too agree with 99% of what you say . (delete salims #40, its irrelevent)

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Since this article is most certainly not about the recent rediscovery of the remains of the Gujarat riots (a footnote makes a reference), I shall not get into that discussion…

When I said, “Pakistan is a failed state. So is India” I added immediately, “They are also both ideal states, actors in search of a character.”
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#15 by Mantolives

[all we need to do in Pakistan is follow that constitution... and not try and follow any utopias...]

Most Constitutions give you certain rights on paper alone. Besides, they are legalistic, not idealistic. E.g. you may have the right to vote, but the agendas are laid down for you in terms of party manifestos. Do you agree with all of these?

[Whatever real or imagined `ideological` aspirations for Pakistan... this ``free exercise of religion`` is central to any modern nation state...]

I would go even further and say that it does not have to be put in so many words, for who is anyone to tell us about a free exercise? Isn’t religion about belief? Does anyone tell us to believe in family values or humanity?

And who defines ‘modern’? What would be the yardstick?
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#17 by Saminasha

[{``Utopia would require a man with clear sight to enter a dark cellar with a torch, find a black cat and proceed to paint it white.``}

Can someone explain what this sentence means?]

If you take it in conjunction with what preceded it, it might not be difficult to understand…

{{There is the story of the philosopher William James being teased by a theologian friend thus, “A philosopher is like a blind man in a dark cellar looking for a black cat that isn’t there.”

“Yes,” replied James. “And the difference between theology and philosophy is that theology finds the cat.”

These two are essentially negative ideas.

In a Utopian world a not-blind man would fortify himself with a torch in a dark cellar where he will find a cat (ideology) and paint it white (see things the way he wishes to…a perfect state?)

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#34 by jang
[i bet eighty rupees that Muk-Mai would not be a hero without the codified west. left to the horribly suffocatingly rigid protocol of the sub-continent, m-mai would become a servant in her rapist house, tending to his cows and sugarcanes. the dictator only seems to be scared of washington post, and not some dynamic-protocol-less mileu... :-( ]

If she is a hero as per Western standards, then she is a codified hero. How many women in the West who speak out against rape become heroes?

The fact the Mukhtaran Mai got the President of her country to ‘take action’ and start frothing at the mouth means that her impact was felt. And her plans for a school were before the West gave her a second look.

Let us not completely ignore the fact that the natives in our lands do have the fight left in them.
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#35 by drlokraj:

[you have labelled almost every alternative as utopia.
What alternative do you suggest??]

I do believe that alternatives are utopian. Anything that becomes stratified starts to stagnate. So, I suggest that every alternative too must have an alternative…
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#36 by Salim_Chauhan

[Also, one person`s failed state is another`s utopia. When you don`t get a raise, it`s a bad economy, when your neighbor loses his job, it`s a recession, when you lose your job, it`s a depression…]

Extremely well said. A cogent post, indeed.

Re. your last post making a reference to my earlier article, it is perfectly fine to be critical, just mind your language. It just does not add any value to what is sought to be communicated.
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And finally…

[You are an unhinged psychotic. That is all one can say of this article. It is a product of a raving mad person.]

And am I glad!

`But I don’t want to go among mad people,` Alice remarked.

`Oh, you can’t help that,` said the Cat. `We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.`

`How do you know I’m mad?` said Alice.

`You must be,” said the Cat. `or you wouldn’t have come here.`”
(Lewis Carroll)

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Farzana, {Pakistan is a failed state. So is India. ``}
Veeresh #33, {``As for India being a failed state, I don`t know about that, doesn`t look like it from my perch as well as from the ground. Yes, some people would love to see India as a failed state. Too bad for them. ``}
einsteinwalla #20 {``India is not failed state. Period.``}

Friends,
Many people want to refer to states that they dislike as ``failed states.`` In my opinion, there are certain criteria that define a failed state. Just like life, failed states are not black and white. This failure can be temporary, ongoing, and sometimes long-term, even permanent if not fatal. Also, one person`s failed state is another`s utopia. When you don`t get a raise, it`s a bad economy, when your neighbor loses his job, it`s a recession, when you lose your job, it`s a depression. Let me define a ``failed state,`` and then give some examples.

To me a ``failed state`` is one that fails to deliver its basic obligation of protecting the lives, property, and liberties of its citizens. That failure is reinforced when it can`t or won`t stop harm happening to a substantial element or group (minority or majority) within its domain. When the state itself inflicts the harm, then we have no doubt about the failure. While most states fail because of a breakdown in law and order, failure can also be attributed to financial bankruptcy, massive insurrection, natural disasters, or even war. Some examples:

Afghanistan, Cambodia, Somalia, Sierra Leone are some recent examples of confirmed failed states.
Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan (during 1971 East Pakistan calamity), Yemen, Sri Lanka are examples of states failing due to civil strife.
India (during 1984 Delhi, 2002 Gujarat), Pakistan (during 1986 and 1989-1992 Karachi, 2005 Baluchistan, 2003 NWFP), Iraq (1991) are examples of uncontrolled violence aided by the government in power. To the Sikhs in 1984, Muslims in 2002, and Mohajirs in 1986 and 1990 their respective countries must have definitely felt like failed states.
Pakistan 1999 and several Latin American countries in the 1970s were almot failed states due to financial bankruptcy.
Miyanmar (Burma) and Zimbabwe are fast approaching the real failed state category.

I have limited the examples to the more or less recent events.

Farrzana ji
We all know there are problems in the system............there are critics everywhere, and you have labelled almost every alternative as utopia.

What alternative do you suggest??

not bad (praise in my understated way)
{However painful and gruesome the Partition of India, on hindsight it would be proper to see it as the extension of democracy as chaos, in that Jinnah was giving a voice to the repressed needs of some. Therefore, it cannot be belittled in any manner. Whatever be the political expediency of his position – and almost all the leaders of stature then were on this grand ‘we are fighting for freedom’ trip anyway – the fact is that ‘free expression’ for a free state, and its subsequent realisation, is a part of the democratic, as much as it is of the demagogic, principle. }

are you still writing about Bal Thakrey (sorry missed the Jinnah but the shoe seemed to fit).

{Unlike the stratified and codified democracies of the West where you are riled for snorting but not for bombing, the subcontinent has a dynamic protocol-less mutinous edge. An unlettered village woman can become a threat to a dictator-president;}

i bet eighty rupees that Muk-Mai would not be a hero without the codified west. left to the horribly suffocatingly rigid protocol of the sub-continent, m-mai would become a servant in her rapist house, tending to his cows and sugarcanes. the dictator only seems to be scared of washington post, and not some dynamic-protocol-less mileu... :-(

Farzana, if this article is supposed to be about the re-discovery of the remains of some of the 2002 Gujarat victims, then where does comparing India with Pakistan come into the picture please?

I mean, you say:- ``Pakistan is a failed state. So is India.``

As for the Utopian rest, nature itself is not based on equality, especially since you quote from the Advaita. Everything is cyclical and even time is probably an illusion of destruction in reverse as well as forward directions. The make / preserve / destroy trilogy goes on and on.

As for India being a failed state, I don`t know about that, doesn`t look like it from my perch as well as from the ground. Yes, some people would love to see India as a failed state. Too bad for them.

Best//veeresh

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