Reinventing Pakistan: The Rise of The Left

the article answered a few questions
the point that partition had more of a leftist then a rightist hand behind it is valid .....
and so is the growing rise of the left
do u think the english papers wud have been less bold if more pakis could read english or afford the english paper......

Saima Shah -- the Left is indeed on the rise -- today it`s Chile`s turn -- Chile elected a new president a leftist and a WOMAN!

Ms. Saima Shah:

You wrote:

``In Pakistan a couple of years ago when Daniel Pearl tried to listen and present the terrorist point of view, they cut off his head. ``

Although no one can condone the heinous crime, I think the killing can also be attributed to the high risk that investigative cum adventure journalism carries. A young American journalist was killed by mob in Somalia and a Palestinian journalist was similarly killed by US military in Iraq.

There have been many other journalists who might have died while performing their jobs in the field.

However, one life, not a journalist though, that I really mourn when I plan on joining a wildlife mission, is that of Diana Fossi. You would recall she was trying to save Gorillas and was killed by poachers.

#110, Behram Bhai,
In my long life, I have spent 10 years in Karachi, over 14 in the US, and less than 1 year in Turkey. Most of my time in thew US was spent in the South and lastly, I grew up in several places in Karachi - Garden East, Sindhi Muslim, and Gulshan. How about you?

Please tell me why you are having your Haroon Elahi look for agricultural land near Lahore for growing sugarcane? Are you predicting another bout with your loving neighbors?

Reply #103:

Dear Salim_Chauhan:

Thanks for letting us know that you are 25 years old. That makes 1980 your birth year, an era when Mohajirs` hate filled agenda was rampant. And then you stayed in Karachi until 1990. You saw all the turbulent years of Karachi. One last thing: which neighborhood you belonged to? All of this gives a perspective, that`s all.

Remember, in one of the earlier posts, you asked me where I grew up etc., and I responded to almost all the details that you expected, and then you did not generate any further question.

One thing that surprises me is that you are a shia. I have never met a shia who is a supporter of MQM. I have to study about MQM to have an idea whether this is a true statement.

{I have been all over the US, including Uppa US.} Now, Salim, I was just asking where your schooling was, and where did you consider home. Travelling all across US in such a short time is one thing, but actually knowing the people of the city you lived in is totally different. And then how long have you been in Turkey? That just leaves you with less than ten years or so in the US.

Not much time in the US. That is not to say that you are not knowledgeable or gifted in the gift of gab. You are awesome.

Nevertheless, I shall enjoy reading your posts,

Respectfully submitted,

#107, you write <<< Nice white people have few but dark skinned african jungli have many many children is it true. That way they are doing leftish agenda like in Pakistani >>>

I wont deal with the ignorance displayed in the rest of your post, but this statement is the most outrageously ignorant and racist in its contention that you`ve made so far. How you mix this statement with the ``left`` is equally baffling. The ``nice white people`` you talk about are not as ``nice`` if you`re referring to the American elite, most of whom are white males. They are slaughtering innocents by the hundreds of thousands around the globe by their decisions~ in my opinion they are jungli barbarians. African Americans on the other hand are victims of their system that either imrprisons them, forces poverty upon them, or segregates them, both in terms of residence and economic opportunity. They are not jungli, the ones who force marginalized existence upon them, as a group, are the jungli and most of them are ``nice white people`` of the American power elite.

Good article overall, but the beginning is confusing. Why was a separate county required to answer the philoshical questions which have been baffling humanity since it came into being?

The central agenda is political power...who controlls the means of production and how the fruits are shared!

Similarly, saying that science was serving the left or the right, is not a correct analysis. Science serves whosoever is holdng the whip.

It is good to know that left is not finished in Pakistan, in fact it can never be wiped out from anywhere....everywhere there will be and are people who think beyond themselves....call them messihas, sufis, revolutionaries or left, and their presence is mandatory whether in power or in the opposition or just working queitly without any labels among people.

Power can corrupt even people who call themselves left, which happened in USSR and east europe, but that does not mean that it was failure of the ideology.

Congratulations and all the best to the leftists of Pakistan.

106 by masadi on January 7, 2006 0:04am PT
#105, you state <<< That is problem of left they subsidise bad and lazy behaviour of poor people by helping and poor res;pond with making more babies >>>

This is a baseless and ignorant allegation. If the political economy of a nation is not distributing wealth in equitable ways so that there are hardly any social services, little education and healthcare, and the only work people can find if any is manual labor~ these more than anything else are causes of a bigger population or as you put it ``making more babies``. The population explosion is not a personal choice, not a country specific problem but a global issue and distributional equality as most ``leftists`` atleast talk about would result in the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

What you recommend has, throughout the history of Pakistan, not only increased inequality by lining the pockets of a few, it has not put a brake on ``making more babies`` either- and that is independent of any ``leftist`` intervention.

Response#106 Dear Mr. Masadi........ I have heard same problem is all over world. People who least afford crank out babies like there is no tomorrow. I have heard same thing happening in country of africa or India and others also. See all over world rich people do not produce too many people. Mr. Jinnah was rich man he went though two wifes both dead but only one strike. Mr. Rajiv gandhi very rich but only two children. Mr. Bush only two daughter and one son ( i am not ure), Gulam Mustafa Khar rich man Lion of Punjab only one child per wife. General Musharaff only two children but all drivers of all these great men have atleast 8 childrens. Most Kashmiris are damn poor as earthquake showed but all have minimum dozon/2 childre. Dark skinned aftricans produce more as they are poor. Poor feel god has given them so he blames others and after wards GOP for his poverty. China is more reducing poverty by adopting 1 baby policy. We have too many people so there is more crime. Most rich people do not snatch cells but only poor are involved in this left program of looting rich people. Presently these poor people are looting rich and decent and hardworking people producing( breeding) babies like rabbits ormices. Rich controls his family size as he thinks about responsibility. While poor produce babies and then blame GOP. Now how much foreign or Gop provide as the tent needed is too big for earthquake victim as he has 8 children as an average. If some bodies sisiert or brother has too many babies the brother and sister do not go out and help irresponsible people why citizens should be punished for poor baby producing machines. These poor people by their unrestrained sex advanture are becoming problem. I have heard same stuff in USA. Nice white people have few but dark skinned african jungli have many many children is it true. That way they are doing leftish agenda like in Pakistani. Be irresponsible and crank out babies and punish light breeder type people. Left like poor as they have hell of good time for voting which rich feel so depressed he does not voter, the buy left leaders afterwards. According to you all poor doing crime is ok as they are pooshing left agenda of distribution.
Anyway thanks, you can be right

I think Indian cricket team has no chance. Specially with ``pidi Express`` will steam roll poor indians like warmacht blitcriz. Express is going to cut indians to size.

#105, you state <<< That is problem of left they subsidise bad and lazy behaviour of poor people by helping and poor res;pond with making more babies >>>

This is a baseless and ignorant allegation. If the political economy of a nation is not distributing wealth in equitable ways so that there are hardly any social services, little education and healthcare, and the only work people can find if any is manual labor~ these more than anything else are causes of a bigger population or as you put it ``making more babies``. The population explosion is not a personal choice, not a country specific problem but a global issue and distributional equality as most ``leftists`` atleast talk about would result in the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

What you recommend has, throughout the history of Pakistan, not only increased inequality by lining the pockets of a few, it has not put a brake on ``making more babies`` either- and that is independent of any ``leftist`` intervention.

#96 Mr. Alert....... Please calm down and do not speculate about me. I am nice decent person not religious nut but moderate religious person and feel there is money in housing more than anything specially in Karach. I do not care what they do outside karachi. Karachi is peace of gold and no harm in taking advantage if one has some money. It is no loose proposition. No body can become real rich without land and little real estate. Stll there is ots of land which can be value added and can result in multistoried building like Amerika, europe, canada etc. Once desalination plant comes on line Karachi can be independently rich like singapore or hongkong. Once there is abundant water it can zoom to 40 million people without problem with modern skyscrapers and modern transportation. All development will be verical mostly.
I am for marathon races even mixed also but only then runner woman and man allowed. It not showed to people as people are not decent, to some extent and then men look at woman and woman look at men is not purpose. On TV if they want to show thay can show dots moving. I am education but not mixed type stuff . Seperaten schools for boys and girls. In nice advanced white countries rich select go to one gender schools and awam go to mixed type giving bad results as they taught sex education and subsidise bad behaviour by giving rubber and contraceptives. Any thing you subsidizes it success beyond imagination and subsidies are more required. Like they hhelp india poor with cheap , food and govt stuff so they have more poors to have more subsidies. That is problem of left they subsidise bad and lazy behaviour of poor people by helping and poor res;pond with making more babies. So we have too many babies so we need houses so controlling housing construction is not right. You have choice control baby numbers or let developers do whaterver they want.

You point is correct about religious objection to these things but you can do something when you have crossed brigde to prosperity denote some money for ppor to compensate for violating regigious rules. Rule braking is ok if you pay fine and help govt so they can subsidise for poor people addition numbers.

Good day and have good happy things for change.

ahmadzai #87, {``The leftists generally did not leave for any foreign countries, they just went into oblivion. Some of them expected new life from President Musharraf post 9/11. Having failed in obtaining that, they have turned to nationalism.``}

Ahmadzai,
Thanks for correcting my remarks about leftists absconding to foreign countries or turning into Jihadists. Your explanation makes more sense, certainly in the case of our brilliant young jingoist barrister from Lahore.

#99, Behram {``Actually, Salim himself has said many times that he is a Shia, and left Pakistan at the age of 10 years, and have never returned in the last 20 years. That puts his age close to 30 years old. So at age 10, he got indoctrinated in the MQM violent politics. I have yet to understand where he stayed in the US. All indications suggest that he might have lived in Chicago. ``}

Behram Sohrabji Rustamji,

Yes, I am Shia and yes I left Pakistan at the age of 10, over 15 years ago, making me all of 25 years of age. Yes, I support MQM when I think it is doing the right thing. I have been all over the US, including Uppa US.

Now, what the hell does all this have to do with the left in Pakistan. I still suggest that they have all become Tally Bans and are hiding in caves.

#100, Behram {``Either just continue to shine as you want to and let others define you, or you can define yourself and show who you are and nobody else will define you. ``}

Behram Sohrabji Rustamji,

Dost-e-man, what do you want to see, a frikkin shijrah? I accepted you at your word and never asked for your affidavit from Mama Parsi Girls High School.

#88, ahmadzai {``An over-whelming majority of Pakistanis is bi ... and some are even tri ...``}

Ahmadzai,
Now, that seems to be a regional problem. Please don`t take the Pathans` peculiar and multi-faceted inclinations and ascribe them to the rest of Pakistan. :)

Dear Salim Bhai:

In my latest edition of the Webster dictionary, ``sofist`` is defined as:

``1. any of a class of ancient Greek teachers of philosophy, rhetoric, etc., noted especially for ingenuity and speciousness in argumentation. 2. a person who reasons adroitly and speciously rather than soundly.``

Then, I went searching for the meaning of the word ``specious``, which is defined as

``1. apparently true or right though lacking real merit; not genuine. 2. deceptively attractive.``

Now, Salim Bhai, honestly Manto is absolutely correct in describing you. Please see my Post #99, to Ahmadzai, in which we remain absolutely puzzled to your post.

So, you have two paths...Either just continue to shine as you want to and let others define you, or you can define yourself and show who you are and nobody else will define you. Regardless, I will contnue to enjoy your posts,

Respectfully submitted,

Reference #89:

Dear ahmadzai:

I see that there is some predicament is understanding Salim Ahmed Chauhan, when you ascribe on him the following

{a sunni Pakistani Muslim carrying surname of Punjabi converted from Sikh background, married to a Shia Turkish girl, living in Turkey, would talk about that issue?}

Actually, Salim himself has said many times that he is a Shia, and left Pakistan at the age of 10 years, and have never returned in the last 20 years. That puts his age close to 30 years old. So at age 10, he got indoctrinated in the MQM violent politics. I have yet to understand where he stayed in the US. All indications suggest that he might have lived in Chicago. Also, what is his education?

For me, Salim is a dear friend, and I enjoy his sophistry quite a bit. My love for his writing skills increases every time I read his post. Hopefully one of these days, I will have the honor of knowing where is he actually coming from.

Until then you and I and the rest of us shall remain in suspense,

Respectfully submitted,

#90, Mantolives {``Salim Chauhan is a brilliant sophist and we admire him for that. ``}

Manto Bhai,
Et tu Mantus!

Definition of sophist (noun): teacher of philosophy; quibbler; employer of fallacious reasoning

Yasser,
You have been branding me a sophist for some time now. I thought a Sophist as someone from Sophia and because some of my family comes from Bulgaria, I didn`t mind that too much. Now, it appears that you are either calling me a teacher, a quibbler, or employer of fellatio raisins. Now that is fallacious and malicious, not to mention atrocious and obnoxious, in addition to being ludicrous and ridiculous - all leading to the same silly sextumvirate forum in Rome.

Now, I have no idea what a quibbler is - probably someone who cobbles together quilts. I hope it`s not someone who just makes a fuss over little things. Regardless, sir, please declare your true intentions for I am prepared to take off the glove.

#83, behram1 {``But absolutely NO to this reunification crap that you seem to be stuck on.

BTW....where did that Junnah article go? Is there any sense to where these artciles go once they are taken off the front page? ``}

Behram Bhai,
I knew that you would disagree. Instead of the one big sugarcane, you want to chop it up into little ganDeriaaN. :)

As for dead articles that disappear from the front page? Yes, they go to FP heaven, where Uncle Temporal and his gang of plagiarists take the useful information from the authors and prominent interactors, such as yourself, and publish the whole shbanag as their own works, thus realizing all the royalties.

Now, do you see why I don`t write on FP?

ahmedmadanai you look like a maulvi, an agent of feudal thugs, whose job is to deceive people.

You are very religious person, and you knew that Islam discourages all this ``haram`` kind of business like stock market, real estate and interest based bank loans etc.

Now you are speaking in the favour of REAL ESTATE MAFIA of Pakistan , who is grabbing every free green belt, public library, hospital, women`s club, heritage building,.. parks,..mountains and forests of Patriata (new Murree) and mountains of Marghalla..and green belts of Gilgit,..and green belts of Chitral,..and green belts of all cantonmenrs from Gilgit to Karachi.....etc..etc..

What`s the guarantee of investments in Pakistan,..children of police seargent Zahoor Elahi with balck glasses are masters of Pakistan,..bullies,grabbers, gangsters, and qabza groups of all areas of Pakistan are now representing Muslim League of barrister Mr Jinnah,...

Think about That how thiefs of yesterday became industrialists,property holders and members of General Zia`s assemblies,..man with ungentlemanly scary moustache.,..

What happened to Taj company investments,..why KSE goes up every second day and then crashes,..

Who froze our dollar ( and your japanese Dallars) accounts???

Remember that Pakistan is heading towards a civil war, if any thing happens to General Musharraf,..or Economist Shaukat Aziz ,..then the down ward crash will be of historical nature,..

Institutions are dead long time ago, ..and country is being governed by two people who are hiding for their own lives in their bullet proof cars and VVIP planes...

Are you suggesting to invest in that country,..where every law and every rule is for sale,..where constitution of the country is ripped apart every second day,..where when citizens get stay order against the Army qabza group,..and Army colonel throws that stay order on their face by saying that take this piece of crap and shove into the ass of the judge who issued it,..then he swears nakedly,..and threatens to use guns,..and then orders his people to demolish the building and occupy the land,..

Re: # 88

Ahmadzai Sahib..

I am Punjabi to the core, for:

- I am taught in Urdu
- I do my Pooja Path in Arabic
- I sing my Tarana in Farsi
- Even my AmmaN curses at me in English (you bloody fool you – bring me the Hooka)

(Is there any room for Punjabi? I guess not – Punjabi has been in decline, ever since Ranjeet left. Bring Sikha Shahi back!).

In terms of this article, it is all relative. Lefties in Pakistan would make David Duke seem like Abbie Hoffman.

#93, totally ignorant comments. What you describe as <<< ``... Pakistani stocks and future microsofts like diamonds undiscoverd in Pakistani markets, equity markets, speculation, how to pick up winners and shunn loosers and make money. Real estate investments, saudi markets, trade in Dubai, taxes, avoiding taxes`` >>> describes gains for a minute percentage of the population of Pakistan. The political economy of deprivation on the other hand, the ``reality`` that leftists have traditionally dealt with, affects the vast majority of those in Pakistan. You can live in your happy go lucky fairy tale world, but don`t condemn us to the same nincompoopish ideals as the ``India an IT miracle `` crowd.

Leftism is infantile disorder of romantic revolutionary academics and should be forgotten. Instead of such topics hope more discassion on KSE, badala, interest rates, Pakistani stocks and future microsofts like diamonds undiscoverd in Pakistani markets, equity markets, speculation, how to pick up winners and shunn loosers and make money. Real estate investments, saudi markets, trade in Dubai, taxes, avoiding taxes. What is use of left also as its no use we need money and petrol. Time has come to leave childish subjects like jinnah and Gandhi and go for real things of maney and trade and business. Leftism is for poor loosers as looser can claim all poverty is due to some body doing bad etc. We should honor left do gooder ideas like poet wan nabes etc and patt them but we should keep eyes on money. There is more money in housing than IT combined. 100 s of billions are dollars want to go in construction but rich do gooder like Cowasjee people putting obstacles in building houses so he can live nicely in his birth house but new person can not buy housing. This regulation on construction in Karachi is creating housing shortage. There should not be regulation for developments in housing. Housing is peace of gold.
Unless all leftist from outside of Pakistan are collected and banned to spread ideas of romanticism about poverty and lazyness and worshiping of poverty or attaching virtue to poverty is braeking back of pakistan. Its Indian movies industry problem and we consume that poison readily. We should have movies in which heros and heroines are rich and with good virtues and poor as bad prople and lazy and stupid then only attraction for poverty and lazyness will go. In that matter Mr.Jinnah is better than Gandhi who lived like poor to show sympathy to poor. We should have to show movies with high culture with high living . No high tech stuff its just show.
Any way all leftists of pakistan have left for antileftist white nice cultured countries and there are no lefist left but if left can be collected and exported if not can be drowned in Pakistan Arabian sea.
Pakistan is too poor and screwed county to have leftist may be when we are rich we can have some leftist but at this time no left only right thinking is right way. Hope we have no disease of left and pakistan will continue rising.
Good 2006.

Ref:#58 by arjun_m on January 5, 2006 3:56am PT
#47 by ahmedmadani on January 4, 2006 9:35pm PT


All foreign investors are thinking of investing billions of dallars.


Thinking?? That and $1.65 will get you a cop of coffee at starbucks..

Mr.Arjun KSE rise is sour grapes to you. The KSE index went from 800 to almost 10,000 is not joke. It is rising like rocket while Indian BSE is earthbound its not fault of IRP.
If you had put your earned money from slavery of white boss say 50,000 dollars they would have become almost 600,000 dollars think about that. Real pakistani does not drink coffee but nice high quality Keniyan tee, indian tea is not appreciated due to low quality when we are adequated to high quality of high mountain grown tea. Most Indian tea smuggled to Pakistan is for poor miserable afghan talibans for your information. If you had 600,000 dollars you would not be feeling jalous and envy of Pakistan economy.
So much money mostly usa dollars, japani dollars, british pounds and saudi riyal and irani toman are pouring like crazy and there are no stocks available as all foreigners have captured chunk.
Electric ( largest in asia) is brought by Hassan assocites and they have german manager- he was manager of berlin city electric co same telephone co, soon PSM and PSO has too many bidders.
If you had intelligence you could have invested money in Karachi and become rich and wealthy than just doing and doing coolie computer jobs. Still is chance to become rich and gravy train is about to start get in or stand on platform as looser.
I really doubt about IIT colleges as you as student from there does not impress. Still you can become rich by going real estate in Pakistan.
Any way you are looswer drink poor indian coffee.

Aasif...

Please don`t insult the memory of the long lost sameerjb by saying Kulharee is related to him.

Ahmadzai...

If anything Raw Dust`s post 70 is closer to the real situation ...

Salim Chauhan is a brilliant sophist and we admire him for that.

Ally at # 59:

you wrote, ``It seems from your posts that you are anti the Mohajirs and Urdu. Why should that be? You are Punjabi why are you concerned when the Original and New Sindhis are working issues out for themselves. ``

As I had expressed on another topic board, I doubt that Salim and Kulharee (Feroze Kutabshahi?) are of Pakistani origin. For once, the topics they seem to discuss at great lengths are foreign to Mohajirs and Punjabis alike.

For instance, Salim discusses the topic of stranded Pakistanis at length. Now what is the probability that a sunni Pakistani Muslim carrying surname of Punjabi converted from Sikh background, married to a Shia Turkish girl, living in Turkey, would talk about that issue? Talk to Mohajirs and you find that only a small fraction of Biharis (now supporting a non-existent break-away faction of MQM) talk about stranded Pakistanis at lengths of cursing and abusing all Pakistanis.

And Punjabis - I am yet to meet a Punjabi who would be anti-Urdu. All Pakistani gown up Punjabis speak Punjabi among themselves, Urdu with their children and English with their dogs.

Other than that, I respect both Salim and Kulharee a lot. The latter only for he likes Heavy Metal. :-)

Salim and Kulharee (Feroz Kutabshahi?):

You are dealing with the language issue of Pakistan under wrong assumption that human mind, like a PC hard disk, is limited in size and is only capable of storing limited information. The truth is that human mind grows exponentially when more and more information is fed to it. Few points:

1. Many Pakistanis, especially Pakhtoons (working as taxi drivers and laborer) in the Gulf are multilingual. They speak Urdu, Pashto, Arabic and English fluently. This proves that human mind is capable of learning many languages.

2. An over-whelming majority of Pakistanis is bilingual and some are even trilingual. All Pakistanis can speak their regional language plus Urdu. Urdu Speaking themselves are bilingual in the sense that they can speak at least one additional language if they reside in the NWFP, Punjab, Balochistan or interior Sindh. The urban Urdu speakers of Sindh, being educated, can also speak English. Therefore, they are also bilingual.

3. Urdu has been accepted as lingua franca, because all provinces have no problems communicating in that language. In the NWFP, where Pashto is very strong, Urdu advertisements run prolifically during prime TV view time. You try running a Punjab advert and all hell brakes loose.

4. Economically speaking too, more the languages you know the better it is. Knowing more languages gives you competitive edge in jobs. So instead of suggesting that we limit the languages, I would suggest quite the contrary. Pakistanis should not only learn Urdu, a regional language, English, but also perhaps one more international language of their choice.

5. Just fyi, the literacy rate of Hunza region of Pakistan is 100%.

Salim at # 74:

Salam and Namastay.

You have claimed that the left in Pakistan turned into Islamic Jihadis. Wow! Now this is originality and creativity par excellence.

The Jihadis, my dear friend, came from the Islamic parties, not from the communist or socialist left. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan simply broke the back of leftists like Wali Khan of the NWFP, General Shroff Marri and Achakzai of Balochistan and the socialists of Punjab in general.

The leftists generally did not leave for any foreign countries, they just went into oblivion. Some of them expected new life from President Musharraf post 9/11. Having failed in obtaining that, they have turned to nationalism.

Kulharee #63:
``In Pakistan the literacy rate is hovering somewhere between 3% to 19%``

here you go again. 3-9% may be the literacy rate for some rural areas in pakistan. Urban sindh much higher. As our good friend raw_dust pointed out, urdus in punjab are bilingual. Same is the case for ppl settled in the saraiki belt and rural sindh. They are bilingual, PERIOD. Another thing that conveniently forget is karachi is not gujaranwala or kasoor where just one linguistic group dominates. Amongst karachiites even the so called muhajirs (toRaas) are not a monolith. There is sizeable portion of kutchi/memoni, gujarati speaker mohajirs. Quite a few those who have been there much before the partition and should not lumped together; e.g. parsis.

``since it is only spoken by Mohajirs (only 8% of the population). ...``

As far as subjects being taught in the native language then refer to salim`s interact. In urban sindh it is mainly english (math, science, social studies etc.) and urdu (islamiat, urdu, riyazi, muashirati uloom etc) and in rural sindh it is sindhi for these very subject I assume it is sindhi. What exactly is your problem? Please, acquaint yourself with the percentage of people who speak and understand urdu across pakistan. For better or worse it has become the lingua franca of pakistan from a mainly urban phenomenon. All pakistanis must be given credit for this and none more so than our punjabi brethren who have promoted it to new heights. Urdu is changing and so is punjabi. The new generation can speak and understand 2 or more of the languages of pakistan and the trend will continue. Just look at your brave and fearless leader musharraf. Here you have a toRa schooled in lahore, born in dehli, speaking urdu with a very AIVY accent. A new identity and language is being formed as we speak, quite literally. So go on sulk..

P.S. Are you related to sameertb, by any chance?

Rsridhar,
The situation you described is lamentable but this is not an individual act not supported by the government in Pakistan in fact the track record of minorities in Pakistan is better then many ‘secular countries’ and so-called ‘secular countries’ . Yes, our track record is not perfect and lot has to be done (changes in Hadood Ordinance and bits and pieces) and yes I agree ‘we are hypocritical’
Rsridhar Bhai Sahib, I am not into blame games but your country’s track record of victimizing minorities is a ‘legend’ and to top it all up victimization is supported by government institutions.

re:#77 by IAliBirmingham
Talking of hypocrisy, there is no place where this art is practised so well as in Pakistan. As
hindu girls are abducted, converted forcibly in one part of Pakistan, the Paki rulers are trying to show the benign face of Pak by inviting India`s PM MMS to visit Pakistan during the upcoming cricket tour of India as this link reveals.
Sridhar

Re #75:

Salim Bhai:

And I am also { seriously agreeing with you and disagreeing with you in your message.}

Yes to {...for the absolutely necessary reunification with India, Pakistanis will need to speak ``furfur`` English. :) } But absolutely NO to this reunification crap that you seem to be stuck on.

BTW....where did that Junnah article go? Is there any sense to where these artciles go once they are taken off the front page?

Respectfully submitted,

#56

``Pakistan was created in the name of islam and is a pure ideological state and had limited linguistic,cultural,geographic pretext for its creation.``

A blatant falsehood. Pakistan was not created for Islam but for only the Indian Muslims. Islam and Muslims are two quite seperate categories, even contradictory mostly. Again, Pakistan was created by Muslim League and not those parties which professed to be Islamic. In fact the latter had opposed the Pakistan movement tooth and nail.

#77, Mr. IAliBirmingham, {``If it is not Hypocrisy on the part of Americans and Europeans then what else ? ``}

I understand what you mean. Not to mention the hijab worn by many Catholic nuns and the cruelty of celibacy imposed on priests, monks, and nuns.

``Pakistan traditionally has not been kind to inquirers or intellectuals``

mashallah, what a brilliant exercise in understating things. you could have put women and children and ordinary pakistanis into this category of Pakistan-been-not-so-kind too.

VERY confoosing article. What does science have 2 do w/ psychosocial research? I thot it was called sociology or some such thing.
U r also conflating science w/ technology.
Science gave us the internet which is supposed 2 free the individual.

on a slightly different note, not meaning to counter anybody`s points:

urdu speaking community in Karachi should have gotten over with their hangups on being Ehl-e-Zubaan and being the ancestors of nawabs and owners of imaginary mansions and estates in UP, long time back. Mohajirs and their intellectual lot never made an effort to acquaint themselves with the rich sindhi heritage and its culture, literature etc. The land they had chosen to settle down for good. Most likely, because the establishment had it going for them by modulating Islam/TNT through Urdu everywhere at the expense of native cultures and since learning Sindhi never figured into getting jobs. They created their own bubble. From observation: the snooty behavior in Muhajir families seems to be quite rampant when it comes to non-muhajirs, even in the highly educated ones like the University professors and Doctors.

Contrast that to urdu speaking community living in Punjab (basically the ones whose granddads chose to stay in Lahore at the time of migration): they seem to have merged quite well with the punjabi culture and are bilingual. There is something to be said about that.

During the last rituals of Pope, American President, George Walker Bush and First Lady of America, Laura Bush were also present. During the whole ceremony, Ms Laura Bush had covered her head properly with a veil. Also all the other American and European women present there had covered their heads properly with veils.

It is also to be noted that all the Christian Nuns / Sisters always keep their heads properly covered with veils which are exactly same in shape as the scarf (Hijab) used by Muslim women to cover their heads. The same covering of head by Muslim women is openly and strongly being opposed by the American and European authorities and organizations. So much so that covering of heads by girl students and teachers has been banned in many educational institutions in USA, Canada and Europe.

In addition covering of head by some in USA, Canada and Europe dubbed as sign of oppression while the others call it fundamentalism / extremism.

If this is not blatant Hypocrisy then what else ?

Further, Pope is leader of all the Churches in the world who is always a man. Heads of all the churches in the world are always men. There have been and are many very senior Nuns / Sisters in different churches. At least some of them may have been excellent in knowledge and character but never a Nun / Sister has been made head of the church.
On the other hand the People in America and Europe bitterly criticize Muslims that they do not let women come forward in the religious institutions. If some one goes back in to history, he / she will find several Muslim women scholars of Islam who were also accepted by all the Muslims as Mufti (one who is an authority on Islam and can issue an edict). Can anybody bring one example of such a woman in any other religion ? No, there is none.

If it is not Hypocrisy on the part of Americans and Europeans then what else ?

Salim Bhaijan... I was just joking yaar. I love Urdu, and I agree that Punjabi sucks - but in a good way. I get jealous of Urdu speakers and I wish I spoke Urdu like my Guruji, he is not even native Urdu speaker.. He is Bengali from Kolkota...

#63, Kulharee {``I think Urdu should be just one (optional) subject in schools across the nation, since it is only spoken by Mohajirs (only 8% of the population). The medium of instructions in Pakistan should be the native languages. ``}

Dear Axe Brother,
I am seriously agreeing with you and disagreeing with you in your message. Yes, Urdu should not be the medium of instrution. And no, the native languages, should not be the medium of instruction. The natives are not only revolting, but they are disgusting also. :)

I say we use English as our instruction medium and the official language. That is the only way we can work with India and share its bounty of call center proliferation revenues. Also, for the absolutely necessary reunification with India, Pakistanis will need to speak ``furfur`` English. :)

Saima,
Very interesting way to look at the political spectrum, if one exists anymore, in Pakistan. Yes, the left in most societies had been progressive, liberal (duh?), and egalitarian in outlook. With the fall of communism, something unusual happened. Many Pakistani ex-commies, in their zeal to hate the US and the west, decided to become Jihadist, right-wing, fundo Muslims. The PPP, hardly the Communist Party of Pakistan, once in power, especially during the two short Benazir terms, became more of a party of feudals. I contend that the left basically got devoured by self-interest or born-again Islam - the remainder just absconded to western countries. Once there, the Pakistani leftists just wasted away trying to emulate the burning issues of western leftists - gay rights, feminazi agenda, color issues, environmental, anti-nuclear, and peace activism. The more important issues of basic healthcare, education, genuine concern for women`s rights, clean water, and decent housing were lost in the clamor for same sex marriages. We must be grateful to Mushy for preserving and enhancing the liberal agenda in Pakistan. The progress (or diminished deceleration) of human development can only be attributed to Mushy`s regime. The neglect of education, the curse of Hudood laws, and proliferation of burkas, resembling grotesque little individual tents, can all be attributed to the legacy of the past 40 years - Bhutto`s ``leftist`` agenda and Zia`s ``rightist`` one. Thanks for providing this opportunity to discuss an interesting phenomenon.

bts

``Has Musharraf made a new left for us too? ``

I also laughed my tail off when I read that Pakistan is about to establish colonies over the moon in this article. I think Saima has turned into a narc; she used to be really cool sometime ago.

But situation for the left is not that bleak. There are some blue blooded leftists left in Pakistan who stood the test of time and still are paragons of virtue, honesty and justice. Zahida Hina is one of them, whom I deeply respect (and probably I am secretively in love with her too).

the article for some reason shows a reading of post-Cold War theory and history - and seems to be clueless of what precedes.

some very interesting and intelligent points. E.g. Science serving the global Right. (Golbal is important).

However, being involved in grass-roots leftist activism, this piece seems to me to be no more than a better articulation of edifying middle-class ideals and the Dream. There were a host of things that were discussed without any reference to their histories which is imperative to their understanding and functioning: identity and culture. There was no mention of army getting entrenched in the political system everyday. The pretty picture that the author has painted is actually a stark realization of what the General wants this country to be. And the stuff in the pointers. It is quite quite preposterous.

Several new parks and cleaner roads - Oh REALLY! Where have you been living? Not in Karachi of course. (The park they made out of sabzi mandi is named `ASKARI PARK` btw)

Several flyovers in Karachi, with remarkably less traffic congestion than a year ago. In a city where construction takes years this is an achievement (WAAAAAAHH!!)

Organized airports (I am lost. No seriously...)

Revamp of the identification systems e.g., passports, ID cards (For? providing more facilities? NOOOOO... Uncle Sam.... hmmmm...)

Police hotline (YES! Something most karachiites would never use to save their life!)

Significant entrepreneurial activity albeit manufacturing is not growing as fast apart from textiles (Thanks to import bans on China)

Rapid growth in educational institutes (Yes. And PhD`s. Like Dr. Atta supervising 200 theses at the same time)

Better roads and telecommunication (Of Course, Of Course. A Curse upon myself if this is false)

Increased accountability from all levels of authority. (THIS is a GEM! No seriously, how many times have you seen ANY general or karnal getting convicted in a `bloody` civilian court in the history of this country? And they mind the top public and private companies. Ooooooh I get it. I get it. You mean they are so `professional` and `disciplned` and of `high morals`... I see I see).

But really, enough is enough. I suggest you start writing about Pakistan

I do not know which left do you represent, but in your long essay I saw no mention of the working-class or the peasants or that wage workers get a 20 PAISA rise ANNUALLY at the top Manufacturing concernsin Pakistan (e.g. Packages Pakistan). Which left are you talking about lady? Has Musharraf made a new left for us too?

Happy New Reality.

#70 by Urstruly on January 5, 2006 11:20am PT


the impossible part of the war is to fight with the 10 year old girl`s hijab.


It`s Islamists like you who`re threatened by the 10 year old because she`s not wearing the hijab...Although the liberterian in me abhors the french restrictions, I think it`s high time someone did something to civilize muslims..

#66 by arjun_m on January 5, 2006 10:00am PT

The easiest part in the ideological wars is fighting suicide bombers; the impossible part of the war is to fight with the 10 year old girl`s hijab.

Pakistan is Yugoslavia in the making. And that might be the only outcome to save this nation.

#67 by IAliBirmingham on January 5, 2006 10:47am PT

``For that - fine it is a good place to discuss and get enlightenment on the forum of chowk, but the field work has to be among the masses and the proletariat who are the actual rulers of tomorrow if it has to be some kind of socialism. ``

Personally, I think the field work had started during and after Jihad in Afgahinstan with Soviets. It has two components to it: one component was the actual mobilization of the foot soldiers who faught the war and second component is the ideological component that penetrated into the society through mosque and madrassa. Fifteen years later what we have is an acutely polarized society. The society is polarized into the ruling class and an absolutely disenfranchised oppressed class, who now can see that the ideological component that they were made aware of was absolutely true. The country has been occupied by a slave class who are reminiscent of our colonial past. They have their fangs dug deep into the jugular of the oppressed class and they are not willing to relent the slightest of the concession to the oppressed class.

But the ruling class is also scared to death by the level of awareness among the prolitereate, as you put it. They name this phenomenon as the ``Talibanization of Pakistan`` and portray it to their Western masters as religious extremism. West has its own axe to grind in this respect. In short, any populist agenda at this time will be crushed with deadly force. The disappearance of about 16,000 activists, imams, and religious leaders under POTA like laws, in Pakistan, and criminal silence of western human rights orgs over this is a sad reminder as to what people of Pakistan are up against.

Dekhta kaya hae mere mun ki taraf
Quaid-i-Azam ka Pakistan dekh
(Why do you look towards me ,l ook at Quaid-i-Azam’s Pakistan)
In our own country, the Pakistani ruling-class, which is a product of British colonialism, is ideologically, economically, culturally, and politically enslaved to imperialism. From the exploitation and genocide in Bangladesh, to the oppression of nationalities, minorities, workers, peasants, and women, they have proved to be corrupt to the core. Politically our country is once again under military dictatorship. Economically, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. We are slaves of our own backwardness.Our ruling class, over the years, has systematically been purged of the enlightened and progressive people. Our rulers have one and only one agenda that is to produce conditions for a system making room for the capitalistic system of production and accumulation of the capital in a few hands only. Considering the specific conditions of our country it is difficult but not impossible to think of a revolutionary change. yes we can have a socialist system and ultimately the Islamic Socialism here in Pakistan also. For that - fine it is a good place to discuss and get enlightenment on the forum of chowk, but the field work has to be among the masses and the proletariat who are the actual rulers of tomorrow if it has to be some kind of socialism. All the religions at their respective times were revolutionary and were instrumental for drastic changes and betterment of the societies of their times. When ever there is a struggle for changes the old system has no option but to resist to the change.

#64 by Urstruly on January 5, 2006 8:51am PT


The proof of that is the anti-Muslim laws in Germany and France where secular political ideology is threatened by a 10 year old Mulsim girl`s Hijab.


They don`t feel threatened by the little girl..they feel threatened by her very-likely-to-be-a-suicide-bomber elder brother who forces her to wear a hijab..

Manto,

Fair enough, I wouldn`t want to quatify the proportions of secular/liberal Pakistanis who are/are not westernized...

Saima,

``The Left in Pakistan is a nameless, party less, agenda less entity. It is the very rudimentary beginnings of an opposition—a true opposition to rightist elements. I speak of left ‘elements’ like the straws that eventually become a nest. ``

Something that amorphous can`t be an opposition to anything. The true test happens when the right, the center right, and even elements of the religious left (who remain socially conservative) get tired of ``moderation`` and lead the back lash.

The ``Left`` has an image problem, and in order to avert this back lash it needs to distance itself from westernization, and continue to be non-confrontational. The latter is, of course, problematic for a political movement.

# 62 Saimashah

``The Marxism that took over in the USSR was never liberal. It was not even secular as it discouraged any religious freedom. Marxism is not liberalism, though it springs from similar sources as liberalism. ``

I think one of the most effective hoax, other than Elvis sightings, that has worked like charm so far is the misguided notion that the Secularism protects the religious freedom. In essence Secularism is a religion itself that establishes itself on the dogma that religion should be separated from state. On the other hand some religions, Islam particularly, promotes that religion must be a part and parcel of politey and system of institutions. That makes religion and secularism two mutually exclusive ideologies. The proof of that is the anti-Muslim laws in Germany and France where secular political ideology is threatened by a 10 year old Mulsim girl`s Hijab.

Like all religions, Secular dogma seeks ``converts``; secularism does not stop the doors of the political institutions, it very mush creeps into your house and effects every aspect of one`s life. In certain countries secularism has only ``tolerated`` religion so far only and only because it was politically expedient. The new Europe and France in particular is the emerging face of secular ideology- masquerade is no more.

Re #42 by Aasif

``Urdus can get away without learning Sindhi while living in Sindh``

>>>>With all due respect, you should refrain from commenting on things you don`t know about. Sindhi is a compulsory subject in school till matric for everyone. In most karachi schools sindhi is taught starting atleast from 6th grade onwards. Many schools have it as early as 3rd grade or even earlier.
Please, take your ethnocentric bs somewhere else. Thank you.<<<

Aasif.. who the hell are you to tell me to refrain from expressing my opinion ? In Pakistan the literacy rate is hovering somewhere between 3% to 19%.. and how do you teach the non-school going Urdus to learn Sindhi? And Einstein, why aren’t all Subjects taught in Sindhi in all Schools in Sindh? I think Urdu should be just one (optional) subject in schools across the nation, since it is only spoken by Mohajirs (only 8% of the population). The medium of instructions in Pakistan should be the native languages.

Re: 38

There is lots of confusion in the article. First Saima must decide what she means by “the left”?

S: The Left in Pakistan is a nameless, party less, agenda less entity. It is the very rudimentary beginnings of an opposition—a true opposition to rightist elements. I speak of left ‘elements’ like the straws that eventually become a nest.

I cannot decide or define the Left in Pakistan. It is for the Left to define itself. I only reported what I saw.

Is it the good old liberalism, secularism or the plain old Marxism? All three have been mixed up so badly that context is the only guide to figure out what she actually meant when she used “the left” to describe a state.

S: Another reason why I did not define the Left. What it is, what name and what boundaries, we don’t know yet. Is it liberal left that will emerge, Secularism, or Marx. Or Sufi Or what??

The Marxism that took over in the USSR was never liberal. It was not even secular as it discouraged any religious freedom. Marxism is not liberalism, though it springs from similar sources as liberalism.

S: Well that was USSR’s Left and its failures mentioned in the article.

”Marxism professed to smash existing establishment and economic system and create a new establishment and economic system by way of proletariat dictatorship. What is liberal in this concept? “

S: Sharing resources. But it failed for many reasons, irrelevant here, but relevant elsewhere.

Science helps liberalism but scientific inventions and the goods the science delivers are agnostic and don’t support either the left or the right or the liberalism or the conservatism.

S: Not true. Science was a liberating force for a long time, but in the last century it has switched sides —technology has been hijacked by capitalists and governments for rightist agendas and is used to increase the power of the elite than to increase the freedom of the common people. Whereas the initial industrial revolution brought safer working conditions and equality between classes, science today is a means of control, and gaining wealth--Science has become Technology.

But saima`s view is a limited view of Karachi only. I don’t see that it reflects the cultural landscape of the whole country. Karachi in even the dark days of religious supremacy was able to keep its head above the water but other parts of the country that were already under the feudal influence were never as liberal as Karachi was. What is on the rise in Karachi is at best secularism mixed with liberalism in pockets. Or plain common sense on the rise.( #30 by kalihawa )

S: I would have agreed with you, but I think it is important to recognize this movement and call it something, Left fitted it more than ‘democratization’ ‘liberalism’ ‘capitalism’ or other such ideas. Yes it is an intellectual Leftism with no leadership, cause of manifesto.

What is an Islamic society? There has never been an Islamic society in Pakistan at least the Pakistan that I know of was never Islamic.

S: Perhaps you should find out how Muslims used to live in undivided India in the last 300-500 years.

thanks to the Mongoloid Invader from Texas the LEFT is on the RISE all over the world.

Viva La Boooosh!

I believe societies are either in flux or equilibrium. Western Societies are in relative stable equilibrium due to numerous safely valves built into there system even then there are pockets which are in taut equilibrium such as areas where Mafia has large influence etc. India, even though a democracy, is not in such a stable equilibrium. Actually some parts are in a highly taut equilibrium therefore unstable and it manifests in snapping of that equilibrium now and then in Naxal violence or separatist movements etc.

Saturation Mullaism on one hand and Military leadership keeping eye over civilian rule too has created serious tension in Pakistani society, which should have led to taut equilibrium but elements cannot be kept in a state of tension indefinitely as creep tends to make tense situation as normal situation. In this context I am relieved that there is no violent snapping of equilibrium instead there appears a gradual shift towards more stability in Pakistan. This is a highly desirable situation.

Kulharee,

As mentioned by Aasif, EVERYONE in Sindh, Kolachi included, must learn Sindhi even if its not their language and don`t use it in their everyday lives.

It seems from your posts that you are anti the Mohajirs and Urdu. Why should that be? You are Punjabi why are you concerned when the Original and New Sindhis are working issues out for themselves.

This sort of ethnic bashing is just petty and is what is leading our country into further trouble, while the world moves on we are still fighting over silly issues like this. Give each province and city its due respect and kader and move on.

#47 by ahmedmadani on January 4, 2006 9:35pm PT


All foreign investors are thinking of investing billions of dallars.


Thinking?? That and $1.65 will get you a cop of coffee at starbucks..

``It is quite likely that the biggest battle for God will be fought here, on its grounds, in its corridors and on its borders.``

Yeah..thats correct. The match is already on. If Pakistan wins, ``Khuda ki Khudai`` will lose.

You people are simply great. The destiny has brought you to the point where you can change the world. You can change the way the world thinks. If Pakistan wins, we will believe there is no God and the human endeavour can reverse/change any of the natural processes. If artificiality can win, mother nature has to lose.

So go ahead. It`s between you and God. Here goes the whistle and the match is on. If you win, the crescent and the star will rule the heavens. What to talk about this world.

A well written piece and a fresh approach to things but raises some questions considering that the Left identified here signifies Liberalism or Secularism.
Is shedding of hijab and shaving off yr beard is a pre-requisite to development? Can we not achieve economic progress without getting rid of the so called symbolic Islam?
Do we need to escape from Islam in order to progress?Pakistan was created in the name of islam and is a pure ideological state and had limited linguistic,cultural,geographic pretext for its creation. Radcliff line was simply drawn because we wanted to create a state based on the principles of Islam. People in Turkey ,Egypt and Iran would still retain their identity if they were to part ways with Islam but we only became Pakistanis because of Islam.
I am no fan of the mullah but some how I believe that the so called icons of the” Left” have been mainly responsible for our inability to fully realize our potential as a nation.
1) Leadership after Jinnah until 1958 subscribed to these similar pro west anti mullah theory.Much of the present rot is due to the mistakes made in those formative years.

2)Ayub khan,again a mullah hater,a proud liberal and an extremely pro west,pro US person.His failed vision and leadership ultimately aggravated the feeling of deprivation in Bengal and laid the foundation stone of the 1971 debacle.

3)Bhuuto,the biggest villian.We are still reaping the “benefits” of his economic policies and the Islamization steps he took to appease the clergy in 1977.

4)Benazir, princess of corruption.Introduced us to new depths in the name of democracy.
Its not a left,right or centre thing.What we need is an integreted approach for creation of a just and egalitarian welfare society in line with Jinnah’s vision of modern and model Islamic state.
The so called Left domination would again give us another Lebanon or Iran under Shah both models which failed badly.

yes, karachi is on the right track for the first time since zab came to power. and the reason for the turnaround has nothing to do with implementation of left or right values. rather its due to (i) sound economic management by the government and (ii) huge improvement in law and order situation which came about after army action against mqm in the mid nineties and against the sectarian elements after 9/11. sectarian elements are largely neutralized while mqm, after being taught a lesson by the army, has morphed from mafia-type organization into something resembling a normal political party although it still relies too much on the cult of personality for my comfort.

for karachi to progress further, govt needs to focus on developing the hinterland because this will reduce the flood of migrants streaming into karachi. to develop the hinterland, army needs to use the same approach in tackling the anti-development forces that it used in karachi. this means that the government must be firm against the people causing the law and order problem in baluchistan and against the people resisting the kalabagh dam. and sure these people will fight tooth and nail like the mqm did. point to remember is that the larger awam will benefit from govt actions much in the same manner as karachi awam benefited after action against mqm.

Pakistan , as well as India should not aspire for the Left, Right, Front or Back. They should always aspire for the TOP. The only thing is that someone should show them the way.

Here is a new concept which I, humbly put forth for the perusal and consideration of all and sundry. I am sure that the concept ,as & when when implemented, will revolutionise the subcontinent and will solve all its problems.

I call this new concept as ``SAHU``. Yes SAHU, taken from the word “Sahukars” i.e. money-lenders of the past. In its expanded form it will read as ``SOUTH ASIAN HIGHWAY UNION``. The main theme of the SAHU will be ``Let the people remain divided ,let us unite the Highways.`` The total subcontinent will be converted into a world-class 8-lane Highway. The people whose Houses, Fields, properties will get destroyed will be bundled to Antarctica, if they protest. Majority-Minority problem in India will be solved by a one-time offer to the Minorities to get converted into Majority out of their own sweet will at the first instance. Otherwise, they will be forced to do so by a parliament resolution without any legal remedy at their disposal. There will not be any minority community left in India, all will be converted into Majority Community.

Pakistan will be converted into Punjabistan and will be named so. Those who disagree/protest will be given a reclaimed area to be brought up in the Arabian Sea at a later date. Till such time, they will be given shelter in tents at the Rann of Kutch. Those who prefer to stay back, will surrender their history, language and culture and will adopt Punjabi language and Punjabi culture in toto.

There will not be any poor left in SAHU. We will manipulate our Exchange Rate in such a way that our per capita income ,on paper, never falls below a certain value, commensurate with those of Scandinavian Countries. We will continue to grow at 10-15% annually by manipulating the growth data so that there is uninterrupted flow of FDI in SAHU.

Our Highways will be our pride. Only Ferraris and Mercedezs` will be allowed to run on them...no other lesser model. The Ferraris and Mercedez will be subsidised by the respective governments so that a person who can afford a two wheeler today can afford a Ferrari/Mercedez.

Our poor and downtrodden people are our greatest resources, we must remember. They will be exported as Slaves to other countries at a hefty premium(to be paid only in Dollars) so that we can earn foreign exchange to subsidise Ferraris and Benzs`.

American Army will be given a free hand to recruit our poor people and use them as cannon-fodder in its worldwide adventures elsewhere. We will take a commission of 50% out of each individual`s monthly salary who joins the elite American Forces. The families of who die in the battlefield will have to deposit 40% of the insurance/terminal benefits received by them from US Army in the Govt Depository.

Our ladies will be given a free hand in the nation-building and their talents will be exploited to the full extent. Our ladies are considered to be the beauties of the world. Rich Arabs will be given a free hand , of course after paying the requisite commission and provided the ladies are designated as ``Queens`` by the Arabs.

In the final analysis, no more India, no more Pakistan, no more SAFTA, no more SAEU, no more Naya Hindustan, no more United Hindustan, no more United India, nothing. Its only SAHU, SAHU AND SAHU.

LONG LIVE SAHU. SAHU ZINDABAD.

Vertex that is not true-

There are many liberal and secular Pakistanis who are as touchy about their Pakistani identity...

Proof by declaration?

Those who are right-leaning may well have been involved in much of the progress mentioned in 1-4...perhaps not the ruiling parties, but then I don`t think your usage of the term ``left`` is restricted to established political parties.

Identity is a very important issue...even in the west; one needs to look no further than the worries about integration of Muslims in Europe and North America that lately seem to dominate the narrative on Islam in the Western media.

In Pakistan, however, the only legitimate voices of identity seem to eminate from the traditionalist/religious crowed...the liberal ``left`` being a rehash of western values and traditions. Perhaps we are in the phase before a backlash...I mean, reading crap like this (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/sunday/default.aspx?c=feature.htm) one can see that things are getting a bit out of control - at least for many traditionalists and even religious modernists (who I suppose you`ve included in the ``left`` under the guise of ``sufis``). It`s one thing that these things do occur, but having the media (which is a source of influence) essentially praise it is asking for trouble. Let`s see if the westernites have a backbone...

``The glass is half-full.``

I think the bottom is just wet......there is a ray of hope.............it is a lifetime of effort for a well meaning liberalist.......first he will have to push the army back to barracks...then reclaim the secular foundation of Pakistan.........then undertake legislative reforms, judicial reforms, administrative reforms......massive educational reforms.......massive financial and taxation reforms.........find some way to make mullahs and the madarassa educated illiterates productive and part of the modern capitalism................reduce military spendings.....lay off its army personnel at all levels...........


seems like a life time of effort for those who want Pakistan to be in the league of developed nations........

As I always tell my father, `having broader roads is not a very solid indicator for mental freedom and progressiveness...`

SAIMA BEHAN

mala pherat yug bhaya,
phira na man ka pher.
kar ka manka daree dey,
man ka manka pher.

[kar:- of Hand ; manka:-pearl of a mala; daree:put down]

ahmedmadani please stop this propaganda , Musharraf cannot cure the cancer of corruption, nepotism, incompetency, cheating and religious hypocrisy which is far spread in the body of Pakistan.

All laws and government rules are for sale in Pakistan, and according to Transparency international,Pakistan has been declared as the second most corrupt country in the world.

People like Cowasji and other journalists and columnists of Pakistani media are candles and beacons of truth, who give light to others.

Cowasji is a great teacher, and he is educating us about the malpractices and corruption of bullies, grabbers, and land molesters of our country.

To a sick person sweet honey tastes bitter, so is your case, that you are unable to see his pain and his love for the betterment and education of his people and his country.

Pakistan is progressing very fast. Pakistan (KSE) stock exchange gain for year is second best in world 54% return. All foreign investors are thinking of investing billions of dallars. Mr. Arjun how much was BSE gain for last year not 54% for sure.
Pakistan problems is liberals and leftists damaging the country. Behram gave mother jone newspaper from USA and there is our brilliant columnist Cowasji telling world about future of Pakistan saying Pakistan is doomed and Musharraf just wants to stick to power nothing more and nothing less and this man is leftist and liberals. Due to these average good person does not like leftist. He should be charged for defaming country instead he write in english newspapers. Very bad. Pakistan is doomed due to leftist people.

Well it wasn`t so last year.... when men and women ran together in the Marathon.

Zakkk,

Thank you for complimenting me for researching the left and writing about it in the English press. My research was initially focused on the left`s role within the Pakistan movement... but I have now discovered that left has a rich, but at times comical, history... Here is a website that does some good work documenting the socialist-marxist movement in Pakistan post 1947: CMKP.tk

Recently a new left alliance has emerged led by the Labour Party Pakistan .... and I believe a sort of Fabian Society for Pakistan is also in the works. My problem however is that I don`t believe in the economic programme of socialism anymore- as capitalism has shown that it works. HP is the great authority on left movements in Pakistan and he must be commended for his most balanced point of view.

-YLH

sex-segregation is the official policy of the government..

Men and women will run separately, says Imran Masood

Saimashah

A good article but a bit loose one. No doubt the canvas is too large to conjure up in a single article as Saima has tried. Anyhow she has provided a good fiest for thought.

She rightly says that the science is now on the side of the right. The mullah armed with the almighty loudspeaker are blaring out terror all the time to our homes reaching even our womenfolk whose physical presence in his terror house he considered unwelcome to say the least. And what about the clashankov, the remote controlled bomb, rocket-propelled grenade etc. All these inventions are being used now on the side of the right, the mullahgardi. As Mullah Nusruddin had once stated the dogs are loose while the stones (the nukes, etc.) are bound.

#33 by Kulharee:
``Urdus can get away without learning Sindhi while living in Sindh``

With all due respect, you should refrain from commenting on things you don`t know about. Sindhi is a compulsory subject in school till matric for everyone. In most karachi schools sindhi is taught starting atleast from 6th grade onwards. Many schools have it as early as 3rd grade or even earlier.
Please, take your ethnocentric bs somewhere else. Thank you.

#38 by HP on January 4, 2006 2:36pm PT


Even though there is no Purdeh in Hinduism, the Indian society is as segregationist as the Pakistani society is.


BS..Lahore is the one with the marathon where men and women run separately..

Pakistan has no Kiran Shaw..

My Pakistani friends,

If you want to add to your leftist population, please, please ask India for help. We will gladly ship you thousands and thousands of leftists. They are infesting India all over. In fact, we will even pay you to take them over.

Tell you what, if you are willing to take them all (including all the CPM/CPI guys), we will even give you Kashmir in the bargain. If we can pursue great economic policies without any obstruction from them, it is well worth the trade.

Thanks,
Yours Ranjit

>>So be it. If the self-esteem of a nation needs its scarves and beards, who am I to object? After all, people take Prozac and Viagra for the same. <<

I did not know keeping beard works same way as taking Viagra.:-)

“The Left, always an anti-thesis to the mainstream had failed when it changed hands and become the Right in parts of Eastern Europe and USSR.”

There is lots of confusion in the article. First Saima must decide what she means by “the left”?
Is it the good old liberalism, secularism or the plain old Marxism? All three have been mixed up so badly that context is the only guide to figure out what she actually meant when she used “the left” to describe a state.

The Marxism that took over in the USSR was never liberal. It was not even secular as it discouraged any religious freedom. Marxism is not liberalism, though it springs from similar sources as liberalism.

Marxism professed to smash existing establishment and economic system and create a new establishment and economic system by way of proletariat dictatorship. What is liberal in this concept?

Marxism attempted to replace the control of resources from the feudal and capital in the hands of yet another minority; the proletariat. Marxism never even advocated a popular platform. It never believed in civil liberties or in women’s rights or in freedom of speech.

Marxism believed in control of all organs in the hand of the proletariat. Marxism should never be associated with liberalism as liberalism is a belief that the individual is ontologically prior to society and politics and therefore the purpose of politics, is the maximization of the ability of individuals to satisfy preferences.

Liberalism and Marxism had a temporary political alliance in Europe and that alliance collapsed after the cold war. The Marxists in the other continents were mostly the only militant opposing force so they ended up donning the liberal jacket too. That was only due to their views on religion but I doubt that any Marxist seriously believed in liberal ideals. I must say that in the current environments, the distinctions are hard to keep track of as Marxists are trying to get under the liberalism umbrella.

“Science had seemed to side with the Left for so long.”
“Science slowly but surely has defected to the Right. Instead of liberation, science is making the authoritarian Right stronger.”

Now here it appears that Saima meant the left as in liberalism. If that is true, then her statement about science leaving the left or liberalism is inaccurate. There have been many attempts to use science to help the so called religious or the rightists’ ideals. Latest being in the debate of creationism and the so called intelligent design but it is not flying smoothly.

Science helps liberalism but scientific inventions and the goods the science delivers are agnostic and don’t support either the left or the right or the liberalism or the conservatism. The use of scientific gadgets cannot be construed to be a defection by science or the science taking sides. This is