Unveiling the Myth of the Muslim Woman

Can someone smell my fart?

#106, Zahra,
That is so truthful and so beautifully expressed. Mr. Assadullah Khan was indeed a romantic, albeit a sad one. Didn`t he also say?

Kehte heN ke Ghalib ka he andaaz-e-bayaaN aur
Le aaieNge bazaar se hum jaa ke dil-o-jaan aur :)

105 - Salim

Your post made me gungunao`fy mirza ghalib`s beautiful verses -

~Hum Ko Maa`loom Hae, Jann`at Kee Haqee`qut Lai`ken
Dil Kae Khush Rakh`nae Ko, Ghalib Yeh Khayal Aa`chaaaaa Hae :)

I simply love this ghazal.

#104, ZahraJ {``Based on your interacts, it is obvious that you are fully committed to your one and only spouse, aren`t you stretching your imagination way too far? :) ``}

Zahra,
If I am not committed, I should be. My wife, being somewhat compassionate, allows me to have an imagination. After all, I am going to admit it once and deny ever having said that, most of us men, especially in our youth, are tempted by the thought of 72 virgins. However, very few of us are stupid enough to go for it. :)

Salim,

Based on your interacts, it is obvious that you are fully committed to your one and only spouse, aren`t you stretching your imagination way too far? :) Is that an ``in`` concept for those in their 20s?

#101, ZahraJ {``Salim,
It`s fine to be humorous, but it is silly to repeat the same joke over and over again. You need to recharge your batteries. Happy Martin Luther King Weekend! ``}

Zahra
Some people say the same thing about monogamy.:)
My apologies. Thanks for the MLK greeting.

the ``burqa and hijab`` of western prejudice against Islam and the East will

``unveil`` itself. The discerning eye and intellect always knew to pierce this ``veil``

and to see western smoke-screens and hypocrisy for what they truly are.

Salim,

It`s fine to be humorous, but it is silly to repeat the same joke over and over again. You need to recharge your batteries.

Happy Martin Luther King Weekend!

#97, ZahraJ {``#97 by ZahraJ on January 12, 2006 8:25pm PT
{``I am happy to see you happy. It is better than all the ongoing chapqalash on each and every board you have decided to frequent :) Keep your sharp humor alive. That`s the best medicine! ...
...I guess it`s unfair to blame your parrot. Probably, you should punish the teacher :) ...
I was planning to be in Turkey around April but then decided to stay away based on the ongoing fiascos. I hope things get better. Take Care. ``}

ZahraJ,
Thank you for noticing some humor in my ongoing chapqalash. :) BTW, what is ``chapqalash?`` Is that anything like ``balderdash?`` I used to know someone who was named ``Qazalbash.``

Juding from your defense of my misbehaving parrot, you have no shortage of funny stuff yourself. LOL. That was an excellent comeback. :)

Please come to Turkey as soon as it`s safe. It`s a wonderful country. Remember, as flattering as it may be, don`t allow anyone to call you a ``chick`` when you do get here. These Turks tend to get extreme when it comes to solving problems. :)

Don`t worry, the Kamal Ataturk International Airport restrooms are all properly equipped. :) Although, they may not carry the ``extra small`` size that Atif2 uses.

#98
BTW, I never said , what you mentioned in you posts previously. Thanks

Thanks for the clarification - finally. ``And, BTW who are you to decide for women folks to wear what? In this case, you`re being neo Islamic and mullahish.`` - BTW I never said anything about what women should wear - you could wear sweats and a mumu for all I care.

I do not want to intervene in the ongoing exchange, but I do want to point out something. I think some of the readers are misreading the emotions expressed in Zeena`s posts. I did not see any anger anywhere. There is a lot of enthusiasm and passion to take a stand on an issue. Often times, we misread disagreement as anger. Women should display passion and enthusiasm in their views. It is boring to read complacent responses. We need more opinionated individuals.

#91
[I am so happy to learn that you pray so much - and even happier to find out that I am the answer to many of your prayers. ]

I am happy to see you happy. It is better than all the ongoing chapqalash on each and every board you have decided to frequent :) Keep your sharp humor alive. That`s the best medicine!

[My dear friend, I ain`t touchin nothin that has feathers. Yesterday, I threatened to turn in my pet parrot if he didn`t watch his filthy mouth. :)]

I guess it`s unfair to blame your parrot. Probably, you should punish the teacher :)

I was planning to be in Turkey around April but then decided to stay away based on the ongoing fiascos. I hope things get better. Take Care.

Vendetta #95
You don`t need to advise me with the same notion that I have been repeating again and again. As a matter of fact, you`re stuck with my ideology. Now, you`re being copy cat. And, parrot as well, repeating after me , same thing that I said earlier. I am absolutely not belittling hijab, but, if is chosen by someone`s free choice. Period.

Yes, I am belittling the hijab, if, is forced upon women either through brainwashing or through patriarchy or through Talibans kind of Islam. In that case, I will call it tent. Yes, i will,b/c in that case it is a symbol of oppression for women folks. And, BTW who are you to decide for women folks to wear what? In this case, you`re being neo Islamic and mullahish.

Now, if, i do make up or wear nice clothes(or even not nice clothes), believe me, that is and will be totally my own choice. I don`t accept any societal pressure,b/c I am a strong and an independent individual. Thanks
PS:-respect others freedom of choice.

#92 & 93
Ha, ha, ha, ha (evil laugh)! Of course I am angry - the nickname is Vendetta after all! Seriously though, you continue to belittle choices even though you claim to respect them. Double talk seems to be your method. Just listen to what you say: ``I never object to those hijabii women, if, they have chosen hijab with their own freedom of choice(which I doubt in majority of cases, they are being brainwashed). Even, I won`t object, if, you start wearing hijab and if you start wrapping your body in a tent`` - THOSE hijabi women, brainwashed, tent! You cannot seem to develop a rational argument without throwing out nonsensical judgements. You are no better than the mullahs you (and I, for that matter) criticize, you are essentially a neo-mullah. As for your choice on not wearing hijab, I respect that, now the question should turn to do you wear make-up, nice clothes, have highlights in you hair, etc? If so do you do it for yourself or because of society`s dictum? You don`t have to answer that, simply a question to consider.... As for me, yes I fall to society`s/religion`s expectations - I wear a tie to work, when I would rather wear jeans, I donate to the local mosque, when some of the things they do drive me crazy, etc. I am just saying that you do what you can, respect others, seek harmony; belittling choices accomplishes nothing.

sorry for typo in # 93
Your post reflects your anger. You are angry as much as words can say.

#82 vendetta
Your post reflects your anger. You are angrey as muc as words can say.

Now, what are you talking about?
If, you go through all my responses(which you didn`t), you will clearly understand my point of view on hijab. Now, to refresh your memory again...............

I never object to those hijabii women, if, they have chosen hijab with their own freedom of choice(which I doubt in majority of cases, they are being brainwashed). Even, I won`t object, if, you start wearing hijab and if you start wrapping your body in a tent..............

Yes, I object to wear hijab, if, it is forced to................simple(now this is crystal clear.)

Let me tell you my personal secret, my parents advised me to cover my head, but, it was me who rejected their school of thought with respect. Because, I am an independent individual, who is matured enough and strong enough to make her own decisions and who has enough IQ to stand up for my rights with courage. Thanks

#82 vendetta
Your post reflects your anger. You are angray as muc as words can say.

Now, what are you talking about?
If, you go through all my responses(which you didn`t), you will clearly understand my point of view on hijab. Now, to refresh your memory again...............

I never object to those hijabii women, if, they have chosen hijab with their own freedom of choice(which I doubt in majority of cases, they are being brainwashed). Even, I won`t object, if, you start wearing hijab and if you start wrapping your body in a tent..............

Yes, I object to wear hijab, if, it is forced to................simple(now this is crystal clear.)

Let me tell you my personal secret, my parents advised me to cover my head, but, it was me who rejected their school of thought with respect. Because, I am an independent individual, who is matured enough and strong enough to make her own decisions and who has enough IQ to stand up for my rights with courage. Thanks

ZahraJ #89, {``You are indeed the answer to many prayers on Chowk :) I wonder why Bina was complaining that Muslims need to get acquainted with humor 101. I hope the birds are doing well in your neck of the woods. ``}

ZahraJ,
I am so happy to learn that you pray so much - and even happier to find out that I am the answer to many of your prayers. Don`t worry about Bina. She is always complaining about one thing or another - good thing that she does, otherwise we would all believe that we were living in Nirvana.

My dear friend, I ain`t touchin nothin that has feathers. Yesterday, I threatened to turn in my pet parrot if he didn`t watch his filthy mouth. :)

Just come back to chowk after several months.
I couldn`t go through all the responses to this article, so I don`t know if anyone has pointed out that Hindu women only began to veil themselves (before men, before God, before outsiders, whatever) after the Moslem invasions - before that there was nothing in India like covering your head etc. Some say Hindus thought this would save the Indian women (mainly Hindu at this stage) from the Moslem men, who (like all invading armies) engaged in rape , molestation, etc., while others believe that Hindu men realized that this was another great way to tie down women. Patriarchy does this to people - make men feel they need to protect their women from other men, and if you don`t do what they say you`re a fallen woman.
Having said that, I feel that the hijab, covering your head, wearing a burqa, whatever, is as right and as wrong as making women feel that looking good for men is their only goal in life - East or West. I don`t think wearing a hijab, or wearing a lot of cleavage, slit skirts etc, are really a matter of free choice, but dressing for the approval of a patriarchal society.

#88 [I try to look at both sides of an issue.]
You are indeed the answer to many prayers on Chowk :) I wonder why Bina was complaining that Muslims need to get acquainted with humor 101. I hope the birds are doing well in your neck of the woods.

#86 Isn`t it unfair to ignore the comedians/humorists on Chowk? You have to appreciate whatever is available. You don`t want to hurt the feelings of atif, kulharee and saleem.

I try to look at both sides of an issue. As much as I tried, I could not find the rationale for seemingly sane people wanting to cover up their daughters, wives, sisters, and mothers. I considered numerous reasons, ranging from piety to perversion, from security to seclusion, and from fear to freedom. Finally, it dawned on me. Yes, of course, the reason is SEX. Not really, it`s what happens after sex - yes, babies. Islam, unlike many other religions, is not against sex. On the contrary, it encourages sexual activity and even promotes promiscuous sex, at least for men, by allowing polygamy. Sex is allowed, even required - as long as it is performed within the boundaries of that great institution that we call the ``Abu Ghraib of Life,`` yes holy matrimony. So, as long as sex is restricted to an act between those licensed to copulate, then it`s OK. Well, God, despite what Christians may claim, is after all a confirmed bachelor. So why is He enforcing marriage as the price of blissful copulation? The reason is simple. Please read on.

For time immemorial, ``nanas`` or maternal grandfathers have had this fear of providing for someone else`s masterpiece. Yes, the fear of diapers, healthcare, and possible dowries have made old men get up in the middle of the night while breaking out in a cold sweat. How to stop your daughter from being a mother pre-qabool qabool? Simple - segregate the women from the men. Don`t allow the free mixing of males and females, unless they are allowed to copulate or can`t copulate - thus the term ``Mahram.`` Funny, how husbands fall into this category - but that is another discussion. :)

Now, if you segregate the sexes, there will still be a temptation to mingle in a clandestine manner. How do you avoid that? Well, what makes men and women want to get together is sex appeal. How do you eliminate sex appeal? Simple, by covering up the source of the sex appeal - the female. Yes, the more hideous the hijab and the more beastly the burka, the less the sex appeal, and therefore the urge to merge. Now, once the young and vulnerable woman is covered up, her chances of becoming a premature mom are diminished if not eliminated and the ``nana`` can get some sleep at night. This rationale does have some validity. In the West, especially in America, the percentage of babies born out of wedlock is around 30% and approaches majority for the African-American community. Even some Muslim girls have been caught in this net of motherhood sans ``7 phaireys.`` Consider the case of Ms. Nomani of the West Virginia mosque leadership fame.

So, now we understand the reason for the hijab. It avoids sex appeal that leads to sex without marriage that leads to babies without responsible fathers. So, one may ask ``why cover up married women?`` Simple again. Why reinvent the wheel? If it works for unmarried women, why not use it to protect married women? After all, just because one or both parties to an act of copulation possess a license to copulate does not necessarily guarantee that the legitimate licensed parties will engage in this fruitful exercise.

#84, 85, 86 - agree on all accounts. -V (Christians and jews are the same as muslims - extremists on all sides can`t seem to agree that in the end choices must be respected).

First of all Muslims need to have a sense of humor. I suggest a Chowk sponsored screening of ``Looking For Comedy in the Muslim World`` (which looks hilarious by all accounts).

I have never seen christians and jews making an issue out of the preferences of their own people. They do have views about issues, but they do not force their views upon others. Muslims are/have been very ummah-focused. As a result, they take it upon themselves to go out and enforce their religious or irreligious views on others. Some preachers may be more orthodox than others. What if other muslims or muslimas do not want to follow certain line of thought? Shouldn`t that be between God and his creation?

As far as men are concerned, I think it is all due to their existence that women have to go through layers of purdah. For all those who are fond of Maureen Dowd, you must read ``Are Men Necessary?`` It`s a collection of her old columns from the New York Times as well as some new revelations. She has a few anecdotes dedicated to the muslim women.

On a different note - I have known a few liberal aka control freak muslim guys who choose to marry hijabi women but ask their wives to fold their hijabs and place them under the last layer of an old trunk. The other scenario is where a liberal or outgoing woman is asked to wrap her skirt and get into a hijab. Women are pretty smart. Whenever they comply, they have their own conditions for the men. So, at the end, it is a win-win scenario.

There are situations where women are the victims due to their circumstances. Still, women are not completely innocent. They need to take control of their lives vs. letting others control their lives. In muslim societies, it is real hard for a woman to have complete control over her life and its choices. I truly abhor the concept of respect toward women in the eastern society. That society kills you by giving you respect based on your gender. You are never ever respected for being an individual. You are always respected for being the sinfae` nazuk. That is the key issue with the ummah-focused nations.

Vendetta sahib(a) - I am in full agreement with #82. Indeed, the choice should rest with women. Those who stand for freedom to choose, should not villify those who practice that freedom.

My post # 69 was merely intended to highlight the absurdity of the ``scientific`` question posted in # 68. It was meant to demonstrate that people who try to tie hijab with all societal ills need to chill out, and perhaps grow up.

Zeena sahiba, I think the women who wear clothes are oppressed and enslaved. I hope you have not been coerced / pressured / brainwashed into wearing clothes by your parents / husband / brothers.

Oh and Bina_Shah and Malik99 - your study proposition would not get past any IRB (institutional review board). And where would you do this study? The middle east, India, Pakistan, the US, England, France? Too many variables, just wouldn`t be a valid study unless you could control for everything. Seems to me that you can`t study the effects of hijab (or anything else) without putting it in the context it was intended for, just wouldn`t be very realistic. For example studying if a 25 mile per hour speed limit reduced automobile deaths on the Autobahn - of course it would, but why would you do that kind of study?

Uh... aka morningdew?! Look lady you`re making assumptions beyond yourself... don`t get angry or vindictive. This is supposed to be a place of civil discussion - but it seems you`re the one ``pushing your OPINION`` on others. Maybe you should do some more reading in the Quran and Sunnah and learn some sensibility. You rail against those who feel, in their opinion, that a woman should wear hijab. Sure, anything forced upon another is wrong - as it is said in Islam ``there is no compulsion in religion``. But what of the millions of women who wear hijab because they choose too? Are they wrong to do so because they choose to? You criticize them as thinking they are more ``pious`` than those women who choose not to wear hijab! You are just as bad as the ``mullahs`` you profess to hate. You criticize these women for making a personal choice, even though you profess to believe that it is a personal choice. Your arguments ring hollow, you provide a lose-lose proposition to any woman wearing hijab and not ascribing to your opinion. Pretty lame.

#80 morningdew
Dear angry sir
I also beg you to respect others beliefs as you respect your own. When, you post illogical lengthy post like this with no sense, this means you`re screaming and you`re really mad at something, that you don`t even practice. You are telling women to practice hijab or cover their heads. Why?
Why don`t you cover your head with scraves just set an example for all followers and for all muslims?

If, I am not following hijab, i am not pushing or forcing anyone NOT to. I said, it is absolutely your personal choice.

But, on the contrary, you`re pushing this hijab for all women folks? Why?
Do you practice the same hijab? No.

Hijab has totally different meanings than what you implement here. So, my advise for you is to chill out, relax, drink cold water and don`t get up set or angry on something that you do not even practice. Thankyou, peace out and eid mubarak.

I only have one id. Do you think its odd that someone else thinks you`re upset? Here`s a hint, when you use CAPS, that means you`re screaming. :)

The problem here is with little zeena and others who believe hijab has nothing to do with the religion. By the way zeena, how old are you? Your english and grammar are pretty bad. And what the hell is a ``mullhaish``? I have no idea what the prostitutes in pakistan are wearing, or in india for that matter. But if they do wear burqa (which are not islamic by the way), then THAT is a cultural thing, because perhaps most of the women there wear such attire. Use your head for heavens sake! When the gov`t of a country makes it law, like in Iran, or when every other women in the city wears it, like Pak. when they go outdoors, then I guess it would only be natural for those who are not religious to wear it as well.

You stated that ``daily life has nothing to do with`` Islam. This is utter nonsense. The Quran and Sunnah have made clear how to do everything, from prayer, to which foot to step out of the house with, to which hand to eat with, to finances, to how to treat your neighbours (no matter what faith they are, they are treated with the same kindness), to relations with your parents, to a husband or wife`s rights, to a child`s rights, even how long to nurse a baby, etc etc, and of course, how to dress, ie modesty for both men and women!!!

Then you claimed there is no reference to a hijab in the Quran. This is also absolutely false. Just because you don`t know how to interpret a word, doesn`t mean you can leave out a whole entire ayah, just to suit your needs!! You may as well re-write it yourself then, and practise your own religion. Which is fine by me, because I don`t care what you follow. My only problem is you telling people that the hijab has nothing to do with religion. Why do nuns wear it? Why do devout jewish women cover of shave off their hair? Don`t tell us crap like it has nothing to do with religion! Plus you never responded to the progressive muslim claim you made.

I think you and I come from two different worlds, where you see women being forced, or oppressed to wear it, or that they act like they are pious once they do. My observation in Canada and the US, is that this is not the case. Infact, most culturally-oriented desi parents, don`t want their daughters to, because of whatever reasons. So its actually the opposite here. Girls start wearing the hijab once they come to learn more about Islam, usually in university, and realize its benefits, and plus the fact that its compulsory for them to do so. And then there are the converts...they put it on right away, without hesitation!!!

We both agree that it should be a women`s choice, but you then turn around and make statements like but why would an educated woman do so, unless its for the wrong reasons.

You`re a runner right? I hope this won`t be your only contribution to humanity, but if you contribute nothing else, at the very least just try to refrain from making false claims about something you don`t even follow. Respect people and their beliefs, don`t try to belittle a women`s decision to wear something, just because you feel you could never do so, or don`t have the guts or self-esteem to.

peace out, and Eid Mubarak. :)

Vendetta aka morningdew
I can do the same cheap thrill to come up with multiple nicks. But, I won`t, that makes me feel dishonest with myself to deceive internet usage. I have my own principles , and , one of them is to have courage to come up with only one nick, thanks

Hmmm... Zeena seems angry to me.... Try yoga, it`ll help you relax... or cut out the caffeine that Salim seems to be imbibing. :)

So... what`s the problem with hijab again?

The wearing of hijab, veils, and burkas should be outlawed - except in the case of professors of ebonics and hyper caffeine peddlers, for whom it should be made mandatory.

#73, Zeena {``Why thieves and dacoits wear hijab?
``}

Zeena,
LOL - that was funny and to the point. :)

#71, Kulharee {``Tomorrow these women might start wearing those welding masks to hide their eyes, like the ones in Saudi Arabia, that make women look like batman.``}

Kulharee Payee,
You come across more as the Robin type. :)

And, also another side note:-
Why thieves and dacoits wear hijab?
So, it makes them more pious.
Well, in that case, thieves and dacoits are more closer to God. Again, my question is, muslim dacoits and thieves wear hijab so, that makes them closer to Allah?
I guess so, if, they are muslims.

on side note:-The question is do Muslim hijabi prostitutes charge more than non-Hijabi prostitutes?
I guess, they do. B/c they are more pious by wearing hijab.
And, they are Muslim hijabi prostitutes, which makes them superior by submitting to commands of mullahs. BTW, they also serve to the commands of men and thats exactly, what mullahs wish from their female counterparts.

Hijab is yet another one of those symbols of Arabic imperialism. Over the past 2 decades, Abaya usage has been on the rise in Pakistan, and the sight of females supporting an Abaya, which was rare, is now becoming more and more common. You go to Anarkali bazaar and you see bunch of goats wearing tents. For crying out loud, when was Abaya part of Lahori culture? It is despicably sickening. Tomorrow these women might start wearing those welding masks to hide their eyes, like the ones in Saudi Arabia, that make women look like batman.

Parda/Abaya/Hijab is the single biggest sign of female oppression in the Islamic world. The practice of it is akin to rape of women at scale unimaginable.

Lucky for us, there are still some sane voices left in Pakistan who will never let Pakistan turn into a Saudi Arabia or Iran.

#47 by Morningdew
You certainly are angry at me. Why?B/c you`re the one who started presuming, I am angry? I di not presume you to be angry. So, if, someone gives a logic to your mullhaish kind of Pseudo Islam or Neo Islam, it becomes a threat and challenge for angry mullhas like yourself and then you start attacking them in a state of great PROJECTION AND REACTION FORMATION IN A GREAT DENIAL.

So, for you the only solution for women kind is to wear hijab?
How about prostitutes in Pakistan? You know, they wear hijab as well. They always wear burqa to protect themselves. What are your comments on those prostitutes wearing hijab or burqa?

Well, in my point of view, if, those prostitutes choose to wear burqa or hijab, let them wear out of their own choice. As for as prostitution is, that is their profession. Again, if they are not forced in to this profession. If, they are forced in to this profession, then all my sympathies for them.

Again, hijab is just a cultural thing. Don`t make it an Islamic symbol of integrity. To wear a TENT or NOT should be woman`s own choice. You are no one to degrade any other women by calling them ANGRY , if, they don`t wish to submmit to your commands of wearing hijab.

My whole point is, if, some women choose to wear this piece of cloth. By all means ,but, they should not push or force others to wear it. They should not start labelling this thing as an IDENTITY for muslim woman. Why muslim women need IDENTITY?
Are they different species than the rest of the women of this world? Are they ugly? Are they retards? Are they stupids? or Are they the prettiest? or are they the most pious? In, that case, why majority of them do not like to wear , what they wear? Majority of them wear, b/c their families brainwash them to do so. B/c they have a fear of their families.

So Malik99, I take it that you feel women should be forced to wear the Hijab?

#68

I`d love it if you could provide me with a detailed analysis (scientific method, please, including hypothesis, method, and results) of how women NOT weairng hijab has solved such social ills as

- rape
- murder
- pedophilia
- drug abuse
- corruption
- robbery
- traffic accidents

We could start with the proposition that in societies where women are NOT veiled, such as US, Mexico, and Brazil, these ills have been eliminated from modern society.

Thank you!

#67

I`d love it if you could provide me with a detailed analysis (scientific method, please, including hypothesis, method, and results) of how women weairng hijab has solved such social ills as

- rape
- murder
- pedophilia
- drug abuse
- corruption
- robbery
- traffic accidents

We could start with the proposition that in societies where women are all veiled, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan, these ills have been eliminated from modern society.

Thank you!

By the passage of time, just as it should have occurred in order to bring the day of reseurrection more and more closer, morality and moral values are becoming as non existent as anything else. Just as you wont expect the leaves to remain green in autumn, one cannot expect a more diminishing intensity of a common man to values and rituals which have been proving themselves divine and naturalistic over the course of infinite times and ages. This inability to understand the obvious and get by the side of those proven ideas, the sickly nature of today’s average person to oppose whatever the ancestors remained clung to just for the sake of sounding different, modern, unique, and even sarcastic has left the few like me utterly bewildered as to how come the proven be denied so brazenly.

Anyhow, however the world behaves and in whichever form against the most suitable, secure, sane and sedative of all the traditions, a simple answer, if one has the courage to be honest, from one’s own self is bound to give the answer that:
“traditions are both healthy and unhealthy, and only healthy traditions have the right to be followed and spreaded as compared to the otherwise will of common folk. And the bottom line reads that hijaab is one such healthy tradition that needs to be followed specifically by Muslim women and generally by all the rest in order to ensure the protection of their modesty and chastity.

#62, kulharee, {``Whoever questions other peoples’ morality doesn’t possess any of his own to begin with. Faith is a little more than a little piece of flush (I would hope). Let me share a secret – if you have seen one pair of boobs, you have seen them all. After about 10 minutes they all look the same.``}

Kulharee Bhai,
Your comment about morality is very logical. As for the boobs, heck after 10 minutes of gazing, one starts to notice the dissimilarities between the right and the left - on the same person. :)
Happy New Year to you and yours.

#63, malik99, {``salim sahib, ...and if it is all about freedom from the shackles of cloth, then please remember that shoaib is still being governed by the dress code imposed on him by the cricket boardI bet he would deliver 200 km/h if he were not constrained by shirt and pants. ``}

Mailk Sahib,
Good point about clothes, lack of clothes, and speed of bowling. Don`t go overboard, however, at some point the disappearance of clothing becomes a hindrance rather than a help - even for Shoaib Akhtar. :) The bat usually belongs to the batsman.

All the kanjarpana a person or a group creates to subjugate others (in this case muslim women) is relection of the criminals` own hijrapan and haramzadgian. i.e. in this case blaming women for muslims` immorality and perversion......of course, the kanjarpana (purdha ritual) hasn`t helped muslim women`s cause.....they are the worst suppressed, and humilliated in the world.

# 61 [Can you imagine Shoaib Akhtar, in a long beard, wearing sandals, and speeding down the batsman`s throat, his head covered in an Italian Pizzeria tablecloth fastened by dual fanbelts ]

salim sahib, but if he can deliver 150km/h ball, then why should you care what he was wearing?

and if it is all about freedom from the shackles of cloth, then please remember that shoaib is still being governed by the dress code imposed on him by the cricket board. I bet he would deliver 200 km/h if he were not constrained by shirt and pants.

Salim Bhaijan… Salutations and Regards. When people have nothing else going for them, they cling on to all this spirituality and stuff. Some of them (however, a small proportion) are plain psychopaths and mentally disturbed people who like to flash their Iman into people’s faces, and forced them to abide by their moral code (e.g., Religious Police in Saudi Arabia). If piety were achieved by as simple a gesture as covering one’s face, Michael Jackson will be the prophet of Islam. One can walk with her breasts exposed and still be strong in her convictions and faith (I witness that every year on the beaches of the Mediterranean). Whoever questions other peoples’ morality doesn’t possess any of his own to begin with. Faith is a little more than a little piece of flush (I would hope). Let me share a secret – if you have seen one pair of boobs, you have seen them all. After about 10 minutes they all look the same.

Best regards for new and a prosperous year.

There are Muslim atheletes like Zeena and Sania Mirza, and of course the great long distance females runners from Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria. There is no need to handicap them by FORCING them to run, play, and compete in burkas, hijabs, or veils. Oxygen is such a problem for high-intensity atheletes to begin with, do we really want to give them another anchor?
The same applies to doctors, lawyers, newswomen, politicians, and businesswomen. There is no need to distract their focus from doing their jobs to preserving their ``external`` piety. There are enough distractions in the real world that we don`t need to add to them.

Can you imagine Shoaib Akhtar, in a long beard, wearing sandals, and speeding down the batsman`s throat, his head covered in an Italian Pizzeria tablecloth fastened by dual fanbelts and sandals as he chants verses to guide the menacing ball to the stumps?

the veiled take action against prostitution..

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060109/137/61xbc.html

Re: # 57

Bina Ji.. I couldn’t agree more. And while we are at it, I think no woman (orthodox or otherwise) should tell her man what to do or how to dress. I am getting sick of my wife treating my like a kid. I can pick my own sweater for crying out loud.

I think all this Islam and divinity is load of bull. It is all about masculinity and feminism and spirituality is just used as an excuse. Those arguing for Hijab could give a crap about a 90 year old female or a 3 year old girl walking Hijabless. It is only reserved for women who are “potential” screws. I think. And most those who speak louder than a pig are impotent jerks who will never admit their impotence and they see women as an easy target to take out their frustration at. These are the same morons who have a knack for distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims and defining the circle of Islam. It’s their gift.

#53 by malik99 on January 9, 2006 3:06am PT

Manto is right here...For e.g., Lebanese aussie muslims want beaches to be segregated because Lebanese muslims go around calling aussie girls in bikinis whores..

Split beaches into sections, say leaders
Jennifer Sexton
December 16, 2005

CRONULLA`S beaches might be divided into sections to remove some of the tensions that erupted into mob violence this week.

Sunbathers, soccer players and surfers could each be allocated an area on the southern Sydney beach to reduce the chance of arguments and conflict over who controls the sand.

Muslim and Lebanese ``marshalls`` and elders might also be sent from the western suburbs to patrol the area and sanction troublemaking young men visiting the beach.

The ideas were flagged at a meeting of community leaders, politicians and police who represented the Sutherland Shire and Lebanese and Muslim groups from the western suburbs. The meeting was hosted by federal Liberal MP Bruce Baird.

Nada Roude, spokeswoman for the Islamic Council of NSW, said: ``It`s just better management. If we can get a grip on what are the factors that have led to these unfortunate events ... then I think we are better able to understand which solutions will bring people to harmony.``

Morningdew:

Oh yeah, I forgot about how some people consider the hair as adornment. I guess that speaks to the state of my hair more than anything, which is often more of a punishment than an adornment (and any woman will likely agree!).

Anyway, I just think that nobody should tell a woman, Muslim or otherwise, what to do. She has a brain enough and the personal freedom to make the choice for herself. Men should be more worried about their own deeds than those of their Muslim sisters.

Dear Dishonest Malik (no not Veeresh- the other one)

The ``cheap meat`` incident happened...ISRU was responsible for it. There is much that has been written about it and even Rutgers University was forced to take up this issue...

Now how am I a pathological liar? I personally consider the Hijab a cloak of ignorance and false piety... However- I leave the choice to the daughters, mothers and sisters of the ummah to continue to remain cloaked in the veil of ignorance... it is their human right to do so....

I still haven`t recieved an apology from you about your pathetic lies against me earlier.

Re: #54 Malik99...why do you feel worrying so much about Hijab? do you wear one?

Here is a direct unedited exchange between Mantolives and another individual on chowk:

#105 by Mantolives on July 12, 2004 5:59am PT

``The women of Islam who willingly wear veils are comitting a crime just like anyone who willingly wears the mantle of slavery is comitting a crime in the free world.``

Well said.

``Well said``, eh! How about that Mr. Mantolives? Arent you a pathalogical liar? A hypocrite maybe? A hatefilled person who equates women who willingly exercise their right to wear what they like with ``committing a crime`` and wearing ``the mantle of slavery``??

You seem to possess all the traits of a mentally deranged individual, Mantolives.

Mantolives # 49 spews lies again [I remember attending Islamic functions in the US, where ``brothers`` like Malik99 told the ``sisters`` that they were cheap meat if they did not wear the Hijab]

This is a serious charge. I challenge Mantolives to provide me the contact information of one such person who uttered the word ``cheap meat`` for non-hijabi girls. I would like to verify that such incident indeed occured. The contact information can be in the form of email, phone or even a reference.

In my more than a decade in US, and active involvement in many student organizations, I never came across a single person - religious or secular - who ever uttered or even insinuted that non-hijabi girls, or any girls for that matter, were ``cheap meat``. It takes a special kind of sick person, like Mantolives, to come up with this kind of lie.

Is it any wonder then that this man promotes hatred towards hijabi girls, calling them ``enslaved``, and barking at them at the airports?

Quote from the Article
“Some interpret the verse in the Holy Quran referring to the veil as required for all women;”

The word veil=naqaab, burkha etc does not appear in the Book. Hijab appears seven times and all in the context of barrier, inhibition, hidden etc= jhajak, lihaaz etc as in Urdu, Hindi.
The head scarf is a mode of dress adopted by some, not a ‘religious’ requirement for Muslims, by the Book.

It is for Christians (and others too)—Bible 1 Corinthians 11,5—“But every woman that prays or prophesies’ with her head uncovered shames her head”.
This is emphasised further by 11-13—“Judge for yourselves: Is it fitting for a woman to pray uncovered to God?”
If we were to adopt the above, and as can be seen, is in relation to the ritual of praying only.
Rashid

Dr. Muqtedar Khan wrote a nice piece on this.
http://www.ijtihad.org/Hijab.htm

I`m sure you`d all enjoy this. I don`t completely agree with it, but it was interesting nontheless.

also, like i said in post #16, this hijab issue is getting old. i don`t think it should be something a muslim woman is souly defined by. There are far greater issues we ought to be dealing with, as many people here have pointed out. Such as the tribal rituals practised in villages against women`s rights, but have nothing to do with religion, yet the men claim it to be. Now that is hypocrisy.

Wearing an article of clothing is an issue of personal choice.

My problem is with Islamist hypocrisy-

While they fight for women`s right to wear the Hijab in the west, they don`t give women the choice to wear miniskirts if they so please in a Muslim country (though I am pleased to note that there is increased relative tolerance now for both miniskirts and Hijabs- both of which were absent till the mid-1990s with Hijab emerging around 1997 and miniskirt now emerging in posh localities of Karachi and Lahore - in Pakistan- polarising but good)...

I remember attending Islamic functions in the US, where ``brothers`` like Malik99 told the ``sisters`` that they were cheap meat if they did not wear the Hijab... This is the kind of nonsense that pisses one off...

On another note: Malik99 is an incredibly dishonest operator for all his sermonising on Islam. He claimed a few months ago that I abused some ``Hijabi`` on Lahore airport once because he read it - and misunderstood what he read because of his inferior English comprehension and skills- because I checked with the said ``Hijabi`` and she still doesn`t wear the Hijab. Not only that but I cleared any misunderstandings and she and I are now friends again. But not so for Malik99 who continues to abuse me and call me a Qadiani on various different boards. A shameless operator indeed.

RE:43, Bina

yes, I`ve come across that interpretation as well. That is why many people try to emphasize modesty over the hijab headcovering. But also, many believe that a woman`s hair is also considered to be an adornment, and so should also be covered, just as the jewish and early christian followers had.

Zeena, your angry soul is certainly showing its love for humanity in your manner of speech, oh but perhaps God doesn`t love you? And I don`t care to know where you are from or not from. You obviously haven`t grown up where I have to know that there aren`t people forcing women to wear it or not wear it for that matter.

Believe whatever you want to believe, its your life, its your soul. No one is forcing you. The religion was perfected, its the followers that are not. Islam empowered women, and still does. That is why most of the educated women who are converting are themselves putting on the hijab. And if khimar means ``NOTHING`` to you, then don`t bother commenting on something you know `nothing` about.

You say ``progressive muslims`` are the ``real muslims``, is that why their whole organization is falling apart here in the US? Is that why several of their prominant and influential board members have resigned, maybe because they no longer want to be the real muslims? Please, humour us some more.

#45 Morningdew
Dear angry sir
Islam doesn`t conrol or focus on women to enslave them. May be Mullah`s kind of Islam, which you are trying to mis interpret once again just like a proto type mullahs. Religion is your personal issue. All religions focus on one thing only. Love for humanity. If, you have that, you are loved by God, no matter which rituals you follow or not follow. If, you call certain Mullahish rituals as Islamic, well they aren`t . They are convolutions of pseudo Islamic or Neo Islamic rituals based on total mis interpretation , just to control women and women only.
khimar means NOTHING to me. B/c I won`t trust or believe in that word to be interpreted rightly. The way you or any other mullah can interpret any verse of Quran, it looks like, Quran has become a joke for all of you. You, angry Mullahs not only misinterpret Quranic verses, but, also mis direct innocent poor Pakis. For your kind info, I am neither of those.

I`m not a ``sir`` dear angry girl. And I`m far from being a ``mullah``. With your interpretation, you`ve completely taken the word out. Tell me what the word ``khimar`` means to you? I`m not telling you to wear the hijab. I have not put it on for my own reasons, but that doesn` t mean I`m going to deny or reinterpret what the Quran says.

I said you were wrong about stating that ``daily living has nothing to do with religion``. Which is completely false. How can you say Islam doesn`t govern every aspect of a followers life?

#43 Bina_Shah
You see, how these Mullahs or so, called theologians change the whole Quran through mis interpretations. This is the tragedy with Islam and progressive muslims(the real muslims) , that their religion has had been BLUNTED and hijacked by these MULLAHS, who convolute whole theme (essence ) of Islam based on their own regressive ideology, which focus on nothing ,but, to enslave women just to serve their selfish motives.

#40

``but basically, the word is ``khimar`` and that means headcovering.
The Qur’anic verse, “Say to believing women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms, and not reveal their adornment . . .” (Qur’an 24:31) is a specific requirement for Muslim women to cover their hair. ``

Actually, this verse is intepreted by some Muslim theologians (male and female) to mean that women were specifically directed to cover their breasts, which were often left bare in the days of pre-Islamic Arabia. However, they did cover their hair, so the verse was revealed so that they would just take that same bit of cloth and cover their breasts with it. ``Adornment`` in this case given that it follows the word ``private parts`` is taken to mean the bosom, as opposed to the entire body.

The instances where the word ``hijab`` is used in the Quran are used for men and women and used in the spiritual sense, i.e. a curtain covering various things (none of which is specified as women`s hair in the Quran).

Hope this helps.

#40 morning dew
You see, i was just waiting for a reply from a mullah like you. Very typical outdated ideology. that i have been hearing.
I don`t seem to be angry, sir. It is you who seem to be very angry and bluntly telling me, I am WRONG. Based on what , that I challenged your out dated ideology???
That I stepped on your tail? That I touched the oversensitive mullah`s nerve?

Now, I will say, sir, you`re not right in saying that veil is must for muslim women and it is written in Quran. You`re MIS INTERPRETING Quran in your own way. Well, the actual verse is, like this,``“Say to believing men and women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward.``
There is not even a single verse that says veil or hijab. Thanks

talking of veils - here is a Ghzal by Aurangzeb`s daughter Zaibunniss translted by some one from Persian:

`` I will not lift my veil

For if I did, who knows?
The bulbul might forget the rose,
The Brahman worshipper
Adoring Lakshmi`s face
Might turn, forsaking her,
To see my face;
My beauty might prevail.

Think how within the flower
Hidden as in a bower
Her fragrant soul must be,
And none can look on it;
So me the world can see
Only within the verses I have writ

I will not lift the veil.

No Muslim I,
But an idolater,
I bow before the image of my Love,
And worship Her.

No Brahman I,
My sacred thread
I cast away, for round my neck I wear
Her plaited hair instead.

``Men see it not, so dull they are and blind.`` (indeed! indeed!)

RE: #4 Zeena
``All this wearing veil or not and doing this or that in your daily living has absolutely nothing to do with religion. ``

You are wrong here. Islam governs every aspect of your life. It is not separate, or only practised 5 times a day, or only on fridays...there are rules to show you the way for everything. Social, economical, the family life, etc.

Also, you stated that ``Veil has got nothing to do with Islam or with being Muslims. If, they refer to Quran. Then, there is not even one surrah or verse that uses this word veil.``

Now that is absurd. Are you fluent in arabic? See http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=3&ID=4834&CATE=368 for a concise answer.

but basically, the word is ``khimar`` and that means headcovering.
The Qur’anic verse, “Say to believing women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms, and not reveal their adornment . . .” (Qur’an 24:31) is a specific requirement for Muslim women to cover their hair.

You seem to have a lot of anger in you, and feel that women wearing it are trying to look more pious than one who does not. Why should it bother you? Your relationship with God is your own, why do you have to judge someone else`s motives for wearing it?

I think the most spectacular discoveries of this century, so far, have been the bird flu virus and Muslim women. Both of them probably are equally fatal for western civilization.

#30 Malik
[There are Indian women who wear saree that makes their walk appear laborious and their hands busy in keeping that saree on their bodies. ]

What an impressive observation! Even the westerners are dying to get their hands on the heavy jamavar and light silk to emulate that ``strange`` gait. Wait for another 10 years and you will find all blacks and whites in glamorous garbs.

#27
Howdy!

Anniqua:

Charming!

[Scheherazade, according to Mernissi, has to master three skills: control over a vast intellectual knowledge, the ability to understand a criminal’s mind and the resolve to act in cold blood. She has to control her fears, to be able to control her fate using her intellect. If she had acted like a Hollywood vamp, she would have been beheaded the same night. Mernissi further argues that this presentation of a sensual woman is probably based on the idea that an intellectual woman might seem less feminine to a Western man, and she bases this claim on the philosophy of Immanuel Kant.]

This is good stuff :)

[Laborious learning, even if a woman should succeed in it, destroys the merits that are proper to her sex…and weaken the charms with which she exercises her great power over the other sex. ]

This is beautiful and quite true in many cases :)

[Women worldwide face discrimination in the workplace by being paid less than men; they face a glass ceiling in the corporate world; they are kept out of politics; they are abused and raped more often than men regardless of their race, religion or culture. ]

Please stay away from generalizations.

Last but not least, `Minaret` by Leila Aboulela has a cover with deep and seductive eyes with a thin rust veil vs. an awkward colored burqah. See, the media ain`t that bad after all.

[Some believe it is to honor themselves in the presence of men, while others believe it is to honor the men around them. ]

Chowk has quite a few gems who will love this.

Again, i have observed and interviewed hundreds of women who wear veil or hijab. I asked them, why they choose to wear this piece of cloth?
Almost all of them replied, b/c , we are muslims and b/c our men do not allow us with out hijab.

Then, I asked them, what if, they are given a fair chance NOT to wear hijab or veil? What will they choose.

Majority of them, told me, they WON`T. It is a symbol of patriarchy in Eastern culture .

I asked why would they NOT choose to?
Their reply was, b/c then they won`t have to be scared from their males.

by Salim,``Forcing them behind burkas, hijabs, and veils, just handicaps them``...

how so?

Yes, it does handicap them, b/c it is the symbol of female suppression, oppression and regression. Yes, it does handicap their real personas to grow their full bloom characteristics. If, some women wear wear veil or hijab , not, using Islam , just out of her own freedom of choice, I will not disagree with her. Let her choose, do not FORCE. In Islam, men force them to wear this piece of cloth just to make them feel mentaly controlled by males, which is a clear handicap to have full opportunity to grow.

Look at Salim`s sentence, he wrote(FORCING). That is the whole point.

And, not only that, take my example, suppose I wear hijab, and I am a runner. Tell me with all honesty. Can I run in burqa? No, absolutely NOT. This is just a small example of some old discarded Islamic regressed ideology, which we need to update for women progression. It is NOT the piece of burqa, it is , SYMBOL of slavery, if, is implemented by so, called mullahs.
Yes, again, if, you choose with all your freedom of choice to wear this piece of cloth with out labelling it as an IDENTITY for muslim women. I don`t have any objection or problem with that. Go, wear hijab, if, you wish to, but, do not claim that this has got anything to do with being great, pious muslima or not.

#33 Salim
EXACTLY.

malik99 #30 {``Women in Iran have conquered Mt. Everest in hijab, literally. They would much rather have the opportunities of education, health care, child care, and jobs than whether or not to wear an additional piece of cloth on their heads.``}

Malik Sahib,
Exactly. So why put the requirement for an additional burden, expense, time, and effort of putting a stupid little piece of cloth over their heads? Now, if they want to wear one as a fashion statement, like a scarf around the neck, or a sweater for cold weather, I don`t have a problem with that. But, to prove piety or to enforce morality by requiring hijab, burkas, veils, or segregation, in my opinion, is immoral, extravagant, expensive, illogical, condescending, assinine, and very pitiful.

And, this has got nothing to do with American insurgence . Yes, they did use it as an excuse, but, again it is a fact that muslims are stuck with this recessed ideology which is a big obstacle in their way.

#30 malik99
Yes, you`re right. But, what we`re emphasising here is, muslim males should stop suppressing their female counterparts , if, they wish to progress. This is the whole point.

Women`s hijab is an artificial / superficial issue, raised to the premimum level because of the expediency of our times. The US wanted to attack Afghanistan, Iraq and target other muslim countries. One way to prep american population into buying these wars was to cloak these issues in the garb of ``women`s liberation``. You no longer hear about burka clad afghan women anymore like you used to before American occupation. It is not because Afghan women have shed burka, it is because it no longer has the propganda value for american government.

People should really reflect on whether the fact that a woman covers her head, or not covers her head, is indeed the primary issue facing the women of our region. There are tribes in Africa where women walk bare breasted. There are Indian women who wear saree that makes their walk appear laborious and their hands busy in keeping that saree on their bodies. These are all cultural aspects and have little value in terms of real issues.

Women in Iran have conquered Mt. Everest in hijab, literally. They would much rather have the opportunities of education, health care, child care, and jobs than whether or not to wear an additional piece of cloth on their heads.

#27 Salim
{{we are stuck in the ecstasy of finding immorality among us - never mind the corruption, the bribes, the lack of freedoms, and the rule of law. As long as our women are hidden, we have honor and can hold our head high. }}}}

{{{{ But don`t go overboard. The cure of rampant nudity is NOT putting women in mobile tents. }}}}

Bravo. Can`t say better than this. Yes, Salim, you said it all.

We can be as progressive as Westerners are, but, only if, we leave our religions aside, which is an extremely personal issue.

#25 by nasah
{{{The process of desensitization of an oversensitive Muslim psyche is in progress in Europe -- hopefully with positive results for both Europe and the `European` Muslims.... }}}

Exactly, this is what we need globally to desensitize the oversensitive Muslim psyche. For that process, we have to fight with love and compassion with oversensitive Muslims among ourselves to combat their outdated ideology with updated one. That will be hard for them to accept, but, that is th eonly way to survive in coming centuries.

Anniqua,
Very well written and a great job in being comprehensive about the topic. I would just add that we Muslims stop looking at western standards as a benchmark of progress or acceptance. Come on, during Victorian age, the proper way for a civilized woman to dress was from neck to toe. Only the heathen women, Hindus and Muslims of the Orient, walked around half-naked in harems. So, in the twentieth century, Europeans discovered the prison attire as swimming gear and we are now well past the age of topless bathing and clothing optional beaches.

The important thing to do is to discard the attempt to appease westerners and at the same time to upgrade our own ancient sense of morality. Hiding women in harems, behind four walls, segregating them to their own kind, or making them walk in tent-like burkas to me is the most blatant form of immorality. Such treatment of women degrades them as human hens and thus to the only value they bring to Muslim society - providng sexual pleasure to their legitimate male ``owners,`` and conceiving, bearing, and raising the next generation of equally ``pious`` Muslims.

If I didn`t know any better, I would believe that Islam stands primarily for the suppression of joy, whether physical or visual, written or oral, real or imaginary. Sexual pleasure is the worst form of joy and should be suppressed, repressed, legislated against, policed, regulated, and if necessary, punished. This has become the cornerstone of our belief system and boy do we excel in practicing this to the letter. Like the Pilgrims of New England, we are stuck in the ecstasy of finding immorality among us - never mind the corruption, the bribes, the lack of freedoms, and the rule of law. As long as our women are hidden, we have honor and can hold our head high.

To have any chance of success in social development of our people, we Muslims need to immediately remove any connection between Islam and how one dresses. Islam is a belief in God, how to serve Him, how to worship Him, how to do good and prevent evil. How a woman dresses is between her and her God. How a man dresses is between man and his God. Of course, society can impose basic standards for public sanity and cleanliness for the prevention of disease and control disturbance of harmony. :) But don`t go overboard. The cure of rampant nudity is NOT putting women in mobile tents.

#21 amansandhu
Agreed. If, some women in Western countries prefer to veil themselves to look different or to enrich their culture, that is OK. But, if, they wear Veil, just, b/c they want to enrich Islam or they want to protect themselves from stranger males. That is absurd. Why? B/c first of all , Veil has got nothing to do with Islam or with being Muslims. If, they refer to Quran. Then, there is not even one surrah or verse that uses this word veil. Yes, in Quran, it is stated clearly, that {{{both men and women should cover their private body parts with pieces of clothes, which if, you wish can take as VEIL ,but, not like they have started implementing that thing to be.
Second of all, is western men never stare at women like their eastern counterparts. They behave very civil.

As long as, some people cry out loud, that USA has rapes and women abuse in plenty. That is wrong, absolutely wrong.
In Pakistan rapes and women abuse is extremely common. Only difference is they go un- reported , again, b/c this is Paki culture is hide every dirt under the carpet and act all your life following double standards to deceive yourselves and others and that is the sole reason, whole society stinks with corruption.

In USA, rapes and abuse happen ,but, never go unreported. They have awareness, NOT to take any kind of abuse and feel suppressed. Society is healthy. Paki society is sick.

Look what happened to Mukhtaran Mai, even Paki president harrassed her for reporting her case and for standing up for her right.

So, it is Paki society, where women need to implement Islam , if, they wish to, but, absolutely NOT in USA. Their society is more than human in all aspects.

The process of desensitization of an oversensitive Muslim psyche is in progress in Europe -- hopefully with positive results for both Europe and the `European` Muslims....

A column pertinent to the present discussion.

Denmark Is Unlikely Front in Islam-West Culture War

By DAN BILEFSKY

COPENHAGEN - When the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, including one in which he is shown wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse, it expected a strong reaction in this country of 5.4 million people.

Muslims gathered at city hall in Copenhagen in October to protest cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in a newspaper, Jyllands-Posten.

Tension has grown in Norrebro, an ethnically mixed area of Copenhagen.
But the paper was unprepared for the global furor that ensued, including demonstrations in the Indian-controlled part of Kashmir, death threats against the artists, condemnation from 11 Muslim countries and a rebuke from the United Nations.

``The cartoons did nothing that transcends the cultural norms of secular Denmark, and this was not a provocation to insult Muslims,`` said Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, Denmark`s largest newspaper, which has declined to apologize for the drawings.

``But if we talk of freedom of speech, even if it was a provocation, that does not make our right to do it any less legitimate before the law,`` he added in an interview from Miami. He spent months living under police protection in Denmark.

As countries across Europe grapple with how to assimilate their growing Muslim populations in the post-9/11 world, Denmark has become an unlikely flashpoint in the escalating culture wars between Islam and the West.

The publication of the cartoons in late September has provoked a fierce national debate over whether Denmark`s famously liberal laws on free speech have gone too far.

It also has tested the patience of Denmark`s 200,000 Muslims. Many of them say the cartoons reflect an intensifying anti-immigrant climate that is stigmatizing minorities and radicalizing young Muslims.

In Norrebro, an ethnically mixed neighborhood of Copenhagen where the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard is buried and where kebab stands dot the tree-lined streets, Imam Ahmed Abu-Laban, a leader among Denmark`s Muslims, bristles at what he calls the ``Islam phobia`` gripping the country.

He asserted that the cartoons had been calculated to incite Muslims because it was well known that in Islam depictions of the prophet were considered blasphemy.

``We are being mentally tortured,`` Imam Ahmed said at his mosque, an anonymous building that looks more like an apartment complex than a house of worship. ``The cartoons are an insult against Islam, an attempt by right-wing forces in this country to get a rise out of the Muslim community and so portray us as against Danish values.``

Mr. Rose, once a journalist in Iran, said he decided to commission the cartoons for Jyllands-Posten when he heard that Danish cartoonists were too scared of Muslim fundamentalists to illustrate a new children`s biography of Muhammad.

Annoyed at the self-censorship he said had overtaken Europe since the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered last year by a Muslim radical for criticizing Islam`s treatment of women, Mr. Rose said he decided to test Denmark`s free speech norms.

The cartoons were published amid the growth of an anti-immigrant sentiment in Denmark, reflected in the rise of the far-right Danish People`s Party.

The party, which holds 13 percent of the seats in the Danish Parliament, has helped to push through the toughest anti-immigration rules on the Continent, including a rule preventing Danish citizens age 24 or younger from bringing in spouses from outside Denmark.

Soren Krarup, a retired priest and leading voice in the party, said the Muslim response to the cartoons showed that Islam was not compatible with Danish customs.

He said Jesus had been satirized in Danish literature and popular culture for centuries - including a recent much-publicized Danish painting of Jesus with an erection - so why not Muhammad?

He also argues that Muslims must learn to integrate.

``Muslims who come here reject our culture,`` he said. ``Muslim immigration is a way for Muslims to conquer us, just as they have done for the past 1,400 years.``

Muslim leaders say that such talk helped create the atmosphere that allowed the cartoons to be published. And they contend that it is alienating the people the Danish People`s Party says it wants to assimilate.........(NYT)

I have to ditto ranjit`s comments on degrading treatment of women in Delhi. I will to have to go further and say that in all of north india, women are treated very badly in public. I have northern family connections (jullundhar, sri nagar, jammu, delhi) but grew up in Calcutta. I was always appalled at the difference in how my mom and later sisters were treated in comparison to Calcutta. And this is 20-30 years ago. It is definitely worse now..

Pankaj Mishra (``Butter Chicken in Ludhiana``) writes about how women are routinely groped in Banaras in the crowds. He notes the sickening difference between banaras as holy city and attitudes of most young men there.

When women ask me about travelling to india, I routinely recommend NOT travelling to north india. South, West and East are fine. Conservative maybe, but you will do fine as long as you dont do silly stuff (have a lot of drinks with someone you have never met!).

BTW, left-wing extremists like Masadi are the most amusing. The silly twit is always ready to give stats on poverty of women in the west, abuse etc. Of course, no similar statistics are available from socialist heavens like cuba or vietnam. Nor are they available from great islamic nations like Saudi arabia or Iran. But why bother with such fine distinctions...