Pakistan’s Territorial Integrity: Lessons from American Democracy

Zeena Ben: `Research is totally based on objectivity of subjective experimentations with lil evidence based interpretational rational with guidance of retrospective comparison leading the study design towards prospective data to be implemented for the progress. And thats what we have been tryin to tell you. Thanks`

That is the most profound statement ever on Chowk! Can you please explain it without the medical terminology for simple pituitary retarded folks like me?.. LOL ...

Really man, Uncle Sam is not the sole ingredient for success. He helps out a lot. But you have to have the internal fabric strengthened. Uncle Sam won’t help you if he don’t need you that much.


<< Faisal Wrote: also fyi, u.s. car exports to japan are negligible as well. >>

-- Faisal once again shows off his blatant ignorance with glee. Japan was another major Asian country to benefit from American re-building, excessive loans efforts. However, in the case of Japan, the human resources were extensively developed along with it’s society having self-incorporated the basics of capitalism i.e competition (read Wealth and Poverty of Nations). The trade protection – in cars, consumer goods etc. was ACCEPTABLE to America as the policy was to contain communism. Now I hope you don’t need sources to see if America ever had a policy to contain communism? Do you? Well, go read a 8th grade book on world history. That should enlighten you plenty. : D


<< Faisal Wrote : ii. you implied in your post#78 that korea had below normal defense expenditure. yet you write in your post#88 that korea spent 15% of its budget on defense. are you implying that 15% is below normal. i can also give you the names of plenty of under developed countries that spent less than that on defense. can you please explain why these countries are under developed despite their governments spending less on defense than korea. >>


- - I think I already explained this to you in the last couple of posts that DETAILED that AMERICA WOULD BAIL OUT KOREA FINANCIALLY NO MATTER WHAT!!!! Read that again please. And America DID bail out Korea as the example of 1979/80 shows. The reliability of financial bail-outs is usually a green signal for giving out bad loans. And Korea as well as the ASEAN countries gave out plenty of bad loans. But I believe all this is too complex for you so I wont’ go into it anymore.


<< Faisal Wrote : iii. uncle sam had more troops in philippines than in korea. in fact philippines for a pretty long time was a colony of the u.s. if defensive support of u.s. is necessary for development, can you please explain why korea developed while philippines is a third world backwater like pakistan? >>

- One can argue that Philippines is like Pakistan. At best of times, America doesn’t provide it with much support other than to let them stay afloat. Secondly, Philippines doesn’t have the developed Human resource strength that Korea and Japan had. Yes, Faisal, human resources do matter. Under Musharaf despite the much touted doubling of education budget, the education sector continues to go down the drain. Pakistan has no credible human resources!


Again, you need to stop playing stupid. America doesn’t supply the same incentives for everyone.


Anyhow, again, it’s not about one dictator or two dictators. Or even about America. It’s about how a nation builds its foundations. 8% growth rates mean nothing at all – ABSOLUTELY nothing without foundations. The current government has ripped apart ALL foundations and built NOTHING in place. No credible education sector and no institutions!

But of course fauji-lovers like you will prefer being blind to the necessities of the basics!

Take an Econ 101 class please.

#116 masadi
Well, clearly people like you, who are unable to come to a clear understanding of the subject, start caling other`s material gibberish. This shows your frustration. Take it easy, relax, chill out. This ain`t question of life and death. Take care

#115, Zeena, you state <<< ``Research is totally based on objectivity of subjective experimentations with lil evidence based interpretational rational with guidance of retrospective comparison leading the study design towards prospective data to be implemented for the progress. And thats what we have been tryin to tell you. Thanks `` >>>

If there ever was one sentence that anyone would use to explain the word ``gibberish`` to someone, you above sentence would qualify as one of the best. And yes, I understand that is what you have been trying to tell me in response to my posts: gibberish.

#114
Research is totally based on objectivity of subjective experimentations with lil evidence based interpretational rational with guidance of retrospective comparison leading the study design towards prospective data to be implemented for the progress. And thats what we have been tryin to tell you. Thanks

#112, your Ad Hominem aside, personal experience can only guide us towards the truth if and only if it is filtered through the method of science. It is great as a guide in evoking interest but not as a sole source of getting to the truth. Your ``personal experience`` itself is socially circumscribed. If you define a situation as real, your experience will fit that definition becomming a self-fulfilling prophecy. The famous ``Thomas Theorem`` states the same. Prejudice and stereotypes fluorish on just such ``personal experience``.

To get to the truth you have to dig deeper, control the irrational elements of your personal experience and use more objective criteria that will result in replicated results regardless of who conducts the research or what the person`s `personal experience`- i.e. biography has been. The key to good social research is 1. history 2. social structure and empirical evidence and 3. biography and how they are interrelated.

Now, these are important tools that have nothing to do with you or I or with India or Pakistan; learn them, use them, instead of basing your posts on baseless rhetoric.

#112
{{Our impressions are shaped by personal experiences.}}
Exactly.
#109
My substance is my personal experience. Take care.

re:#107 by masadi
Masadi dude,
You seem to be blinded by your hatred of America. Did u by any chance get your A$$ whipped in Guantanama Bay? That would explain everything.
You seem to suggest (from your post to Zeena) that you do not take personal views seriously. We are not writing a scientific paper on corruption in Pak (though one needs to be written on the subcontinent including India).
It is my personal experience that bureacracy in India is corrupt. I have narrated that experience in various posts before (in another forum) and i won`t repeat that here. No amount of statistics that says India does not have corrupt bureacrats will convince me. Our impressions are shaped by personal experiences.
Sridhar

Faisaluno

``manto, your post #92 reeks on religious emotionalism which is rather strange cause you claim to be a champion of rational analysis.``

What religious emotionalism? I said that despite my opposition to the second amendment declaring Ahmadis non-Muslims, I accept the constitutional process. How is that religious emotionalism? Another funny claim indeed.

``and for your claim that my post #92 is ``amazingly ignorant``, that claim will be easier for me to accept once you provide a point by point rebuttal to my post #90.``

The rebuttal flows from a simple point that your post 90 is so ignorant as to assume that the Supreme Court of Pakistan, which exists only by virtue of articles 176-191 of the Constitution of 1973, ``does not care about the constitution of Pakistan``. This shows your ignorance of the way law works. You did not give any real basis for your outrageous claim... which is why I found your claim very ignorant.

``and sure mush did not overturn the second amendment. but neither did bb or ns. mush however did over turn the separate electorate law. so in this he is one-up on democrats.``

1- BB and Nawaz didn`t over turn the second amendment because they did not have the popular support for it. What is Mush`s excuse- since he is the all powerful dictator of Pakistan?

2- The separate electorates were brought into the constitution by a Military dictator- General Zia-ul-Haq, through a highly dubious process. BB and NS were hardly in a position to undo this law... but had Democracy been allowed to work, it would ultimately have been changed- BB`s second government was planning on doing it but she was prematurely dismissed.

The question here is not whether second amendment stays or goes or whether voting is separate or together... it is quite possible that Nawaz Sharif would have turned Pakistan into a more blatant kind of theocracy... but that would have been through a process, and I as a secularist would accept it as the will of the people expressed by the constitution of 1973.

-YLH

Athar Ossama,

My final comment- bringing together the various points I have already raised. We must look at the whole issue in entirety.

United States of America, as a commonwealth of settlers, has a constitutional history spanning over 380 years starting with the Plymouth Plantation and the Puritan Commonwealth. I am a bit puzzled by your comparison with 1776 and 1789. If I was asked to compare our republic with any period in American history, it would be the Puritan commonwealth- which was a revolutionary idea at the time- brought about the dissenters against the church of England.... I would also compare Pakistan to Roger Williams` Providence and Rhode Island experiment... We certainly are a ``as a Citty upon a Hill, the eies of all people are uppon us``...

The first and foremost thing that have to accept is that the constitution of 1973 is the point we must proceed from... as pre-1973 beloned to another era... and post 1973 is the rape of Pakistan as a modern nation state.

Yours sincerely

YLH

#108, weak on substance again and heavy on rhetoric.

#107
Oh, boy you seem realy, realy mad.Arright, you won this discussion. After all , It is American way to give charity to Pakis. So, I am donating you with my sympathies by pretending to surrender for your nonsense, ohhh, I apologise, (don`t bomb me by suicide bombing), i mean your very sensible analysis. Please, accept my charity with respect.

PS:- for your kind information, analysis is based perfectly upon personal experiences. Don`t you know that. It is the object`s subjectivity which makes analytical datas. So, if, you`re smart enough you will respect my personal experience more than what you read in some bogus news agencies or web sites.
Remember, research is made on individuals personal experiences, not, on some unknown species.

You`re being , too stereotypical and utopian here. Come out of your utopia and feel the facts. Again, don`t get angry, my dear friend. This is just the cyber space, not you actual home, where you can be angry at your own risk. Just kidding.

#106, thank you for revealing to us the ``sources`` of your ``facts``. You state, <<< ``My experience with Pakis is , they are more hypocrites and they don`t respect basic human values and lives. `` >>>

That is exactly why your response is based more upon stereotypical rather than scientific generalization. How many ``Pakis`` have you met in your life, 1000? 5000? How many of those have you known well? A couple of dozen? four dozen?. Now, did you pick this ``sample`` randomly. Did you adminster a scientific survey to them or done any kind of content analysis? If your answer is NO and it most certainly has to be NO if you`re truthful, then you are in no position to ``generalize`` based upon your personal experience for a nation of 160 million +. Bigotry feeds on stereotypes, give them up, and give up the official mythology of the ``land of the free``- that incarcerates more people per capita, as fact, than any other nation on earth.

I suggest that instead of posting nonsense here you show some respect to the author (even though I disagree with his article`s conclusions) and post things relevant to his original post, and grow up and learn some.

Respectfully submitted (as behram1 sahib states),
masadi.

#105 Yes, you are very stereotypical in your false delusions attached with pak land. On the contrary, I am not. My experience with Pakis is , they are more hypocrites and they don`t respect basic human values and lives. That is the reason, Pakistan is #1 in corruption. Now, say it is not fact. I myself experienced , Pakis asking for bribes , the moment you step on Paki airports. Lies, bribes, dirty habits, double standards aka hypocrisy , flattery, cruelties, barbarism, belittling poors, making poors lives more miserable, oppression of women, miserable elders(if, any left). Snatching the rights from the righteous ones and giving it to the wrong ones is the common habits of Pakis. Show offs, greed, deciets, dishonesties all are Paki traits. That is the reason, the Paki culture sucks.

#104, my case was not based on stereotypical rhetoric like yours, I presented facts which you can go and check up, just follow the posts. The human ``crudeness`` of Pakistanis is much more valuable than the plastic hypocrisy of the American elite- I`d pick the former over the latter any day. They smile at you with plastic smiles while in their hearts the hypocrites consider you less than human.

#103
And, you are at all the liberty to prove your delusional false statements, the fact??
Haaaan, tsk,tsk,tsk
And, you have all the right to call my meaures crude, while forgetting, Pakistani system is the crudest in the world and that is not hidden from anyone. There is absolutely no comparasion between American and Paki system. It is same, if we start comparing slums with palaces to be equal.