Encore Soft Hindutva?

Masanamuthu...

Yes- there has been a decrease- I did not deny that... but its not completely ethnically cleansed as you put I am afraid and let me remind that you had wondered why in essence I was stressing Jinnah`s vision of a Pakistan with rule of law and no discrimination between citizens of Pakistan...

My friend- like I pointed out that the 1997-1998 census results were not made public in Pakistan. I took part in that census ... I am surprised that Americans have it. Even so, Zia had overturned the ``Joint electorates`` that all three constitutions of Pakistan had... and given non-Muslims a paltry 8 seats... 1997-1998 `s census might have been skewed to keep the present arrangement in favor of Nawaz Sharif- who was actually pushing for a theocratic caliphate if you recall... to undercut his Mullah opponents.

I don`t know- I told you what my figures are based on- my personal experience and a rationalisation of minority claims- (as in 15 million to 8 million)

Mantolives:

Did you forget to read the article?. It says ``According to the most recent census, taken in 1998..``

and Zia died in late 80`s..

I don`t think US state department has any ``ulterior motives``.. Read the next few lines too.. It also says, the minorities claim they constitute close to 10%..

Even assuming if that is right, tell me CLEARLY if that is an INCREASE or a DECREASE from 1947..

I claim, the perecentage of minorities in the regions that constitute Pakistan has decreased drastically through the years from 1947.. You have to answer either Yes or No.. I jsut want your estimates on how many percentage points you think the minorities have increased/decreased or if you think it remained stable.

Dear Masanamuthu...

There are two things here.

The source you`ve quoted is simply regurgitating the official ``Zia`` figures from the 1981 and estimating on that using birth rate and death rate etc. Did they conduct the census themselves?

I am giving you the situation as is-

I have not yet worked in any corporate/social/legal organisation in Pakistan that did not atleast have 6+ christians.... Am I just lucky- or is the 3% Non-Muslim population just too well represented? And look I have not accepted the Pakistan Christian Congress figure of 15 million either... but to claim you have 15 million- shouldn`t you have atleast half that much?

I did not claim a finality in the rough calculations I gave you... but I`ll tell you one thing for certain... Pakistan`s non-muslim population is much Higher than 3% and this believe it or not - pisses off the mullah much more than you.

YLH
[...For the purposes of this analysis Ahmadis are being considered Muslim... and not minority...]

Sure - in your dreams :)..... isn`t that in paki constitution - that ahmedis are not muslims?

You better ask Aisha Sarwari this. I will get you the details tomorrow- on this board.

According to the story I am told... my wife`s grandparents refused to leave at first... but were finally made to after Hindus attacked their house.

From the US state department website..

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35519.htm

...
Section I. Religious Demography

The country has a total area of 310,527 square miles, and its population is approximately 150 million. According to the most recent census, taken in 1998, an estimated 96 percent of the population are Muslim; 2.02 percent are Hindu; 1.69 percent are Christian; and 0.35 percent are ``other`` (including Ahmadis). The majority of Muslims in the country are Sunni. An estimated 10 percent of the Muslim population is Shi`a, including some 550,000 to 600,000 Ismailis. Most Ismailis in the country are followers of the Aga Khan; however, an estimated 50,000 Ismailis, known as Bohras, are not.

Religious minority groups believe that they are underrepresented in government census counts and claim that they represent 10 percent of the population, rather than the census figure of 4 to 5 percent. Official and private estimates of their numbers can differ significantly. The most recent official census estimates place the number of Hindus at 2.44 million, Christians at 2.09 million, and the Ahmadi population at 286,000. The figure for the Ahmadis is inherently inaccurate because they have been boycotting census and registration for electoral rolls since 1974 when they were declared non-Muslims. The Hindu and Christian communities each claim memberships of approximately 4 million. Estimates for the remaining communities are less contested and place the total number of Parsis (Zoroastrians), Buddhists, and Sikhs as high as 20,000 each; and Baha`is at 30,000. The ``other`` category includes tribes whose members practice traditional indigenous religions, those who normally do not declare themselves to be adherents of a specific religion, and those who do not practice any religion but remain silent about that fact. Social pressure is such that few persons would admit to being unaffiliated with any religion.

....

Now leave out Bangladesh.. I was just asking what was the percentage of minorities in the region that constitutes Pakistan (NOW) in 1947 (after partition and migration) and what is it now and do you think it increased or decreased.. Honest answers please..

Hyderabad Pakistan that is.

Manto,

Really, that is great. I am from Nagpur.
I do not think there were any riots in Nagpur or anywhere in Vidarbha
during partition. Did they leave Nagpur because of there were
threats or violence?
Just curious, where did they live in Nagpur?

Masanamuthu...

Several Pakistani Christians contribute regularly to this forum... Ijaz Gul, Patrick Masih to name a few... and Behram Atashband believe it or not is a parsi...

Hindus do comprise a very small population but it is only a matter of time before a Hindu from Karachi gets on here- indeed I am told there used to be a Hindu interactor from Hyderabad but his identity is under some dispute.

Let me give you an additional pointer...

Danish Parbharkar Kaneria and former Mr Yusuf Youhanna are members of the Pakistan cricket team... Mr Kaneria as you know is a Hindu and Muhammad Yousaf (formerly Mr Youhanna) was a christian .... Kaneria is an old St Patrick`s Boy, quite rich and upper middle class and Youhanna was not...

Similarly .... Rana Bhagwandas, one of the senior most Justices on the Supreme Court, is a Hindu, an accomplished Judge of 30+ years....

Ofcourse none of this - as I explained in post 166 is to suggest that I am happy with the situation in Pakistan. I will strive to improve the lot.

Shishapa...

My late father-in-law`s entire family fled a city called Nagpur... Is it in Punjab or Bengal?

First of all my observations are based on my day to day experience. In Pakistan there is not a single job I have held - single office I have visited - where I haven`t come across as coworkers atleast half a dozen Non-Muslims or so- as God is my witness... I know of countless lawyers, judges, doctors, and educationists who are Hindu, Christian, Parsi and even Sikh.

Now I come to your question.... bear with me- the following is by no means a definite thing but is based on some rough calculations I did a while back when I was intimately involved with the minority issues- especially through Pakistan Christian Post and Pakistan Hindu Patrika...


The region that is now called Pakistan was only a part of the original Pakistan. The percentage may I remind you of Hindus in Bangladesh is still around 20 or so percent.
There is no real census (since 1981 I believe and that too was under Zia so I am not willing to accept it- 1997 census was a wasteful exercise and results to date have not been made public though we hear of them every now and then) to determine what the actual percentages are...

However... the Pakistan Christian Congress (http://www.pakistanchristiancongress.com/) claims to have 15 million + Christians in Pakistan ... I believe they too are exaggerating ... the number of christians is somewhere around 8 million with around 4 to 5 million in Punjab. Similarly Hindus form the majority in a few districts in Sindhs... A reasonable estimate of their population is between 2.5 to 3 million in those districts... I would put the Hindu community in Karachi at about a couple of hundred thousand. A large population inhabit Hunza areas... Sikhs, Parsis and other smaller groups make up to an additional 200 000 people. There are also about 300 or so Jewish Pakistani citizens.... In a nutshell- I don`t have a number... but if someone was to ask me, I`d put the the population at about 8-10% of Pakistan`s population, if we reject PCC`s claims about 15 million people.

The total population of Bangaldesh is 135-140 million. 20% of those are 28 million.

28 million + 14 million= 42 million

42 million/ 290 million * 100 = 14.4 %


Now let us come to the situation.

The Non-muslim population of UNDIVIDED PUNJAB + UNDIVIDED BENGAL + NWFP, Balochistan and Sindh was around 35%.

Bengal and Punjab were divided ... with Non-Muslim majorities going to India. Then in partition 3.5 million Hindus left for India from the Muslim Majority districts and 7 million Muslims came in- reducing the non-Muslim population - in my rough estimate to around 21-22%. Muslims, as compared to other communities, have a higher birth rate. And yes there has been some migration out of Pakistan as well... especially during the 1971 war and after Zia-ul-Haq`s regime too power....

Now let us compare the areas specifically in Pakistan today minus Bangladesh...

For the purposes of this analysis Ahmadis are being considered Muslim... and not minority.

Mantolives:

Just another question.. (from a simple mind), you see a lot of Indian Muslims contributing on this website.. (even the editor is one such..). I am just curious if any Pakistani Hindu has contributed here, if so please send me some pointers.. I am just interested to now his/her views and where he/she lives at present.. You can ask your colleagues to contribute here too..

Thanks.

And Hindus/Sikhs were forced to flee Sindh, Balochistan, NWFP
eventhough they were not partitioned.

How many Muslims were forced/compelled to flee from how many Indian
provinces/states that were not paritioned?

``but to be sure the numbers of the Muslims going into west and east Pakistan were put at close to 6 million``

Out of those 6 million, how many were going to east and west Pakistan
because they wanted to, on their own volition and how many were
forced to migrate?

What I am saying is you can`t compare just numbers. Most, I would say
all of Hindus and Sikhs coming to India were fearing for their lives.
Not the same can be said about the people who were going to
Pakistan. Lot of them had stived/yearned for Pakistan and now wanted
to go the country they had strived/yearned for.

Mantolives:

Can you quote the percentages of ``minorities`` in what is now the region of Pakistan in 1947 and now.. and tell us whether it increased or decreased..

Thanks.

Masanamuthu...

India is such a big country- that ethnic cleansing the entire Muslim population was very difficult... but to be sure the numbers of the Muslims going into west and east Pakistan were put at close to 6 million, where as the Hindus and Sikhs who left Pakistan were close to 3.5 million. You can check these numbers any where.

For a country that ``completely ethnically cleansed`` the minorities- as per the great ``Indian`` wetdream- I sure seem to have too many Christian and Hindu co-workers - and those too in very respectable positions. Perhaps its time to open your mind.