Where are the Questioning Minds?

Re: #330 by Urstruly

You did not mention any ``method`` to me AT ALL.

If by ``method`` you mean the quote from the New York Times THAT YOU ADDRESSED TO Dost-Mitter, let me inform you that that:

a) that quote does not support the assertions you made:

[But my findings so far have proved that the violence during Partitionwas almost one sided and about 85-90% of it occured in the areas that are now in India. ]

and

b) this is not a legitimate method for ``researching`` anything. You need MANY more sources, facts, figures, numbers etc., chosen in a scientifically impartial way to eliminate/reduce errors.


But in any case, where is the support for your assertions?

Re: # 329

The method was explained in my previous post. The news reports did mention the names of towns, districts, sometimes villages or geographic location. The biggest of the refrenece is the ``East Punjab``, which everybody knows what it is.

Re: #328 by Urstruly

[So far I have been able to find the archives of NY Times, Washington Post, LA Daily Times and The Toronto Star. Most of the other newspapers with archives as old are pathetically local for whom the world ended after Europe and Soviet Union. My library told me that they can arrange archives of Australian and Newzealand papers through NY Public Library, whichlends such material for four weeks. I have to plan this to sift trough three years of record probably in a week or two. I am working on it when the time is right. ]


In your post # 317 you say:

[But my findings so far have proved that the violence during Partitionwas almost one sided and about 85-90% of it occured in the areas that are now in India. ]



I am curious how you have already reached the following SPECIFIC conclusions:


1) ``the violence during Partitionwas almost one sided``

and

2) ``about 85-90% of it occured in the areas that are now in India.``




What is the method you employed to arrive at these conclusions?

Dost-Mitter

So far the pattern that I have come up with is that there were two epicentres from where the genocidal machinery started to spread. One was the princely state of Kapurthala and other was that of Patiala. In both of these states, under state orders all Muslim police officers were ordered to disarm beginng in june of 1947. Hindu & sikh militants were given a sanctuary where they could train themselves and by July the wave of violenece by Jathas started to progress outward into the rural areas and towards other urban centers.

For example, in the August 28, 1947 edition of New York Times, I found this news report, which is attributed to Ian Morrison of London Times. Ian reports from Jullundhar on August 24:

More horrible than anything we saw during the war (Ian is probably refering to WWII), is the universal comment of experienced officers, British and Indian, on the present slaughter in East Punjab. The sikhs are clearing East Punjab of Muslims, butchering hundereds daily, forcing thousands to flee westward, burning Muslim villages and homesteads, even in their frenzy burning their own. This violenece has been organized from the highest level of sikh leadership, and it is being done systematically, sector by sector.

The news report by Ian Morrison also mentioned Field Marshal Auchinlek`s orders to Indian army to stop violence. Auchinlek was the commander of British army who presided over British-Indian Army during partition. He is one of the most respected Field Marshall of the WWII in Military circles. When I read the above excerpt I looked up Auchinlek in the library I was in and found his memoir, and here is what he I found on page 906. Before, last year I always thought that the following event was an urban legend created by Pakistani establishment. Field Marshal writes:

``On August 15 the day of liberation was strangely celebrated in the Punjab. During the afternoon a sikh mob paraded a number of Muslim women naked through the streets of Amritsar, raped them and then hacked some of them to pieces with kirpans and burned the others alive``


In response to Ramanujan:

So far I have been able to find the archives of NY Times, Washington Post, LA Daily Times and The Toronto Star. Most of the other newspapers with archives as old are pathetically local for whom the world ended after Europe and Soviet Union. My library told me that they can arrange archives of Australian and Newzealand papers through NY Public Library, whichlends such material for four weeks. I have to plan this to sift trough three years of record probably in a week or two. I am working on it when the time is right.

Mantolives #326 Thanks for taking the time to find and post that letter. I did not know that, and my respect for Jinnah just increased. I should add that I developed a similar respect for Gandhi after reading that he did his best to stop the communal riots as well.

While recognizing the point you make about Jinnah, I should note that we need to then make sure that his views do not die with him. This is done then by focussing on the issue that I raise in #325, namely: ``why has there been no justice served, no token of regret expressed by either the government or the press in Pakistan for the injustices done in Pakistan`s name in 1947. ``

Per your earlier post, I know you recognize this as an issue. This is an issue of taking responsibility for things we can control, rather than simply complaining about things we cannot control. We as Pakistanis are in control of whether or not we recognize the injustice that was done to hindus and sikhs back in 1947.

We need some kind of an official gesture - e.g. a letter of regret by the president on behalf of pakistanis to all indians Indians who were resident in Pakistan areas before 1947 and are still alive, along with the right to visit Pakistan; a memorial along with a small educational center commemorating the injustice done to these people who lived on what is now Pakistan.

Such a gesture will indirectly benefit Pakistanis - since we would be teaching responsibility to Pakistani children, rather than teaching them to merely complain about injustices and/or to glorify violence (which is in effect what those memorials to missiles and nukes are about).

Dear tahmed...

Quaid-e-Azam expressed regret for the Hindu migration and wholescale massacres on several occasions ... three actually stand out... October 30 1947 in Lahore, Jan 6 1948 in Karachi and March 1948 in Dhaka... in the first two instances he actually went to the scene of rioting and stopped it...

Here is a letter by a Hindu gentleman in Dawn ... which makes interesting reading:


http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/12/letted.htm#2

Advani on Jinnah



THERE has been quite an uproar over Mr L. K. Advani’s statements while in Pakistan about Mr M. A. Jinnah’s secular outlook. I wonder if what I had witnessed in Karachi during the riots in the first week of January 1948 would throw some light on the subject.

I forget the exact date — Jan 6 or 10, l948 — when riots broke out in Karachi and Hindus were at the receiving end. They were being killed and their houses looted. This went on for three days. Three attempts were made on us at our first floor house in Trikona (Triangular) Park area near Artillery Maidan. A nawab family on the second floor, who had migrated from Lucknow protected by their Hindu neighbours, saved us.

On the fourth day and not a day too soon, I was passing the Eidgah Maidan when I found Jinnah Sahib addressing the crowds. He had passionately spoken for about 10 to 15 minutes. He had his famous “Jinnah cap” in his hands upside down, extended towards the crowds, imploring them to desist from bloodshed and not to make Hindus the target of their wrath. His unforgettable words spoken in Urdu, which ring in my ears even today, were about Pakistan not having been created for the massacre of Hindus who had an equal right to live with Muslims and others in this “pak” (pure) land not to be made “napak” (impure) by killing them.

He desired the crowds to return and help in returning all the loot to their area police stations. He had sternly warned the masses that shoot-at-sight orders were being given to deal with offenders. And that did have a salutary effect as under the direct orders of the then military chief, the military did open fire a few times on the miscreants and riots came to a halt much to the relief of everyone including our family. It was a pleasant surprise to find the crowds returning the “loot” which piled up at Eidgah Maidan to form a mini hillock.

That was the only time I had seen and heard the creator of Pakistan. I owe my life to him and to my Muslim neighbours, the migrants from India.

HIRA GULRAJANI
Mumbai, India.


--

It does not matter if they killed more or we did.. but that killing occured on both sides.

mantolives/``I-ignore-politically-incorrect-talk`` urstrulydost mittar: The only ``murdas`` of 1947 I care about are those who were killed and for whose killing justice has never been served, nor even regrets ever issued.

And, reading the discussion below, I am sorry to see that all you are doing is pointing fingers at one another again when you say who started it and who killed more. These are supremely irrelevant issues .

What is relevant is that hindus and sikhs who lived on what is now pakistan soil were killed and forced to flee. The relevant issue for me as a pakistani is - why has there been no justice served, no token of regret expressed by either the government or the press in Pakistan for the injustices done in Pakistan`s name in 1947. It matters not one bit what happened to muslims in India nor who started it.

This is obviously too difficult a point to accept, and you would rather beat the hollow drum of pointing fingers at one another. Sad. At least ylh explicitly acknowledged the truth behind what I wrote. urstruly hides behind the ``scholar`` mask and dost mittar writes the usual indian line, albeit in a more subtle fashion than his cruder colleagues.

#323:

Dear Yasser:

You are right. Those poor ``murdas`` have been ``ukhado-fied`` at chowk several times and I had no intention of doing it again, that`s why I restricted my response to a single sentence about the time line without aportioning any blames.

Dost Mittar,

You know I don`t agree with Urstruly and his ideology... but his claim that 85%-90% of the massacres took place in Indian areas is actually well supported and an honest investigation will prove it. Secondly ... we`ve been over direct action day many times on this website... and the number of Muslims killed in Calcutta was in any event three times higher than the number of Hindus killed there... this can be verified from Lord Wavell`s diary where he also makes a comment about not having any proof of ML culpability ... and yet proceeding to use the Calcutta disaster as a whip to use against the League. You can change the time line but there is no escaping these fundamental truths.

Re: #317 by Urstruly

[Personally, I consider myself a pathological skeptic]

I am a skeptic too. So before branding you a ``pathological`` anything, I would like to verify what you say.


[So in order to verify my theory I assumed that Western newspapares of that time, especially, from US, Canada, Austrailia, and Newzealand or from any other English speaking part of the world would be realiable sources because they did not have any stake in the carnage during partition and they would just describe the events just as they would have unfolded.]

Not necessarily true. The carnage in erstwhile East Pakistan by the Pakistani army was massively underreported by the western press even in countries that had no stake in the outcome.

But it`s good to see Chowk interactors actually doing research, instead of relying on blind faith. That being said, could you kindly provide a list of newspapers and the dates of publications where you found this information?

I have self-respect, and therefore do not like to go around with opinions that are wholly incorrect. So I`d like to take this opportunity to correct myself, if in fact, what you say is true.

I`d be much obliged if you could provide the information.

Thanking you in advance.

Urstruly sahib

(Personally, I consider myself a pathological skeptic)

Your skepticism would however I presume stop at the Koran and the ahadith. They I presume are above your skepticism.

Regards

The following type of coverage from eminent Islamic leaders is what the moderate world is waiting for. I am sure Yasser, HP and others would welcome and may like to become part of the force to bring reforms.

Anil Kapuria

---

Khatami: Islamic World Ready for Change By VIJAY JOSHI, Associated Press Writer

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - The Islamic world is fed up with violence and extremism in the name of religion and is ready for an era of progressive, democratic Muslim governments, former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami said Friday.

Khatami said current conflicts between the West and Islam have created a situation that ``can only see ever-escalating violence, whether in the form of war and occupation and repression, or in the form of terror and destruction.``

``After about two centuries of dispute between tradition and modernity in the world of Islam (there is) a high level of mental preparation for the acceptance of a major transformation in the mind and lives of Muslims,`` Khatami said in a speech at an international conference on Islam and the West.

Khatami is a noted Islamic scholar whose moderate policies in religion and politics, especially his view of the U.S., were opposed by hard-liners in Iran. He was Iran`s leader from 1997 until June, when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an ultraconservative, became president.

The conference in Kuala Lumpur comes at a time when the Muslim world and the West are polarized following the publication of caricatures of Islam`s Prophet Muhammad by mostly European newspapers.

Khatami did not refer to the controversy in his speech, focusing instead on reforms in Islam and conflicts with the West.

He said a transformation in the Muslim world could pave the way for setting up ``democratic governments that pursue national interests and create the grounds for achieving greater science and technology.``

He said he envisioned ``a new world that wants to understand and utilize religion in a way that it is not incompatible with freedom and progress.``

---

#317

1. its stupid (and unislamic) to verify a preconcieved notion.
2. even in karachi, hindus were clear that they need to flee if they could, based on a tense atmosphere of violence and daily bodies found on idgah maidan.

Urstruly#317:

The timeline is fairly well-known though it may not support your theories. The riots in India started with the Direct Action in Calcutta in August 1946. In Punjab, they started in March 1947 - not in Gurdaspur but in Rawalpindi.

Dost Mitter,

Personally, I consider myself a pathological skeptic and I do not believe anything that is hurled towards me until and unless I verify it through several sources. For quite sometime I have been trying to write an essay, in a readable and concise fashion, to find out about the pattern of carnage during the Partition. The core reason for this research is to verify my theory that Congress and Sikhs deliberately started the genocide of Muslims in Gordaspur to keep Kashmir and a bigger chunk of Punjab to themselves. I am also of the opinion that Congress considered Sikhs as unreliable allies and saw the communication between Master Tara Singh and Jinnah with skepticism. So the planned carnage was started with the idea to thwart the potential of any Sikh-Muslim alliance at that time or even later.

So in order to verify my theory I assumed that Western newspapares of that time, especially, from US, Canada, Austrailia, and Newzealand or from any other English speaking part of the world would be realiable sources because they did not have any stake in the carnage during partition and they would just describe the events just as they would have unfolded. So I approaced several respectable libraries in US and Canada and requested the Microfiche records of the newspapers with in the timeframe of January 1, 1947 and Dec. 1951 when the migration between the countries stopped.

As I said my focus was not only to chronicle the carnage but also find out their geographic progression as well. At present this project has proved to be overwhelming when I can only dedicate one saturday in a month. But my findings so far have proved that the violence during Partition was almost one sided and about 85-90% of it occured in the areas that are now in India.

The Hindus and sikhs living in areas that are now Pakistan could never be immune. Congress invested hugely in creating a propaganda war in those areas that if Pakistan came into being then Muslims in those areas will impose ``islamic law`` according to which all males would be killed, and all women be turned into concubines; not to mention that their property and wealth would be confsicated. So this created a certain mindset in Hindus and Sikhs and when they saw and hear the carnage that their co-religionists started to inflict upon Muslims in Indian areas, they became sure that Muslims in West Punjab and Pakistani areas would sure retailiate and that the congress propaganda might come true. Meanwhile, in some cities and towns in West Punjab when riots broke out they assumed that the process had begun. But if you look at the statistics gathered by some sikh websites the carnage in Pakistani punjab looks like a school yard brawl during recess time. Microfice records support this theory.

Fortunately, you live in a Western country and you have access to all the resources that I have, I think you would do a great service to your nation if you spend some weekends in the libraries and find out the truth yourself.

re:#283 by Urstruly
Is this guy for real?
People like this moron is the reason i think there can be no reconciliation between India and Pak.
Sridhar