Tortured Justification of Torture

dear kaalchakra
would you be kind enough to share your views about the personality, philosophy and politics of Mohandas Gandhi. it seems as if you have strong views about him. sincerely sohail

dr sahib

There is something missing in the head of a left-wing philosopher who cannot see an occasion to become a right-wing political activist. Yes, Gandhi was one such left-wing philosopher, and for that mistake he is criticized.

Dear Rafi Aamer,
Your article on chowk.com inspired me to read Sam Harris’s book The End of Faith. It was one of the most provocative books I have ever read. Sam Harris has shared his truth openly and honestly. In spite of my many disagreements with him I enjoyed reading his challenges to traditional ideologies, beliefs and blind faiths. He is very emotional, sentimental and passionate about his logical and rational thinking.
If someone asked me, “What are the three most important ideas presented in the book, I would have said, “ Sam Harris believes that for the future evolution of humanity we need
…human beings motivated by love and compassion
…communities and cultures based on secular and humanistic values
and
…the abolition of organized religions and blind faiths which are major obstacles to human growth and progress.
If someone asked me three shortcomings of Sam Harris as a writer I would say,
…his thinking is over-inclusive. I felt as if there were 300 ideas in 300 pages. It reminded me of a Chinese Buffet with 100 items for dinner.
It was difficult to eat or even taste all the items. As a reader I felt overwhelmed and bombarded with ideas.
…Sam Harris is very reactionary regarding the Sep 11th, 2001 tragedy. His political views about the world situation in the last four years blur his insights into the struggles of humanity about the beliefs of God and religions over the last four thousand years.
and
…Sam Harris sounds more anti-religion than pro-Humanism. His bias, even prejudice, against Middle Eastern monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and especially Islam—is quite pronounced, compared to the soft corner in his heart for Buddhism.
Sam Harris has tried to build a case against blind faith from two sides: scientific and rational thinking from the outside and spiritual and mystical experiences from the inside. His arguments seem philosophically strong but psychologically weak. He starts his discourse as a left wing philosopher but ends as a right wing political activist. By favoring war and torture to promote peace he becomes his own worst enemy. His arguments are least convincing when he attacks Mohandas Gandhi and Noam Chomsky. Challenging Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussain is one thing but to justify bombing Afghanistan and Iraq is another matter. From that position he sounds like a more rationalizing than rational writer.
As a secular humanist I support his criticisms of organized religions but as a peace loving person I cannot agree with his support of torture and war.
It seems to me that Sam Harris as a writer has serious unresolved conflicts, philosophically and psychologically. Since he writes with passion he can provoke strong emotional reactions. You can love or hate but cannot ignore such a writer. He seems to have a PhD in controversy. Since he is young and energetic, maybe with the passage of time he might realize that winning arguments is easier than winning hearts, confrontation is easier than compassion and gaining knowledge is easier than acquiring wisdom.
As a psychotherapist I realize that developing a humanistic philosophy by reading hundreds of books is easier than developing a humanistic personality, for which one needs to do some profound, painful and complex emotional work. Some atheists have personalities as extremist as those of their religious opponents. I feel that Sam Harris has a long way to go to embrace inner and outer peace and develop compassion for Easterners rather than promoting war as a Westerner.
Dear Rafi.
I would like to thank you and the editors of chowk.com who inspired me to read The End of Faith. I do not have faith in organized religions but I have faith in myself and the future of humanity. I am hopeful that we as human beings will evolve to a stage where we will rise above the man made dichotomies of East and West, Muslim and Non-Muslim, First and Third World, Us and Them and realize that our enemies are our distant cousins.
Sincerely,
Sohail

Re: # 33
masadi,

Thanks for your comments. What you have raised are valid points for another discussion. I just wanted to tackle the comparison Sam Harris made on purely theoretical basis. That is why I added the words ```at least in theory`` in the sentence you quoted.

Rafi

#31 by Saminasha on February 11, 2006 12:45pm PT


So, whatever Israel does on its own dime is fine with you....


well.. yes..

A bigger evil does not justify a lesser evil, I agree with you there. However I disagree when you say <<< Collateral damage is always considered an unintended consequence of war. Nobody, at least in theory, intentionally perpetrates collateral damage >>>

Those who design weapons like the moab bomb know that it is going to kill people across a wide parameter. They are premeditating mass murder and they are mass murderers. George Bush is a mass murderer, he sent dozens of cruise missiles into the heart of baghdad in order to assasinate one man, he dropped 4 2000lbs bombs on a civilian neighbourhood restaurant to kill that same one man, and these are just two cases. No two ways about it. All wars fought with such weapons are illegal and immoral regardless of the rhetoric.

Rafi,

Very interesting. I have Sam`s book next to my bedside lamp for the past few weeks and I have been planning to read past the first few pages. I had read a brief excerpt elsewhere on his book and that was quite interesting. It seems that there is more to it. An antidote to Sam`s theory would be, ``Why religion matters`` by Huston Smith. Take a look at it.

Z

Arjun,

So, whatever Israel does on its own dime is fine with you....

I swear, one of these days you are going to break out in teddy bears and heart candy (eye roll)

#29 by Saminasha on February 11, 2006 5:48am PT


its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.


Trouble with reading? comprehension-challenged?


i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


What part of ``my opinion: The US should stop aid to Israel`` and ``on their own dime`` wasn`t clear?

Arjun,

Ah, another touching viewpoint from our resident fascist...i swear, Arjun, it seems when you post, there isnt a dry hanky in the house...

along with your lazy justifications of zionism, you`ve thrown in a whopper of a lie....its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.

Now, where is the liberty and democratic process in that?

#27 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 3:05pm PT


And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Total strawman..What`s this, national logical fallacy day?

Show me where I`ve said criticizing zionism (or Israel for that matter) is anti-semitism...And then i`ll show you my posts where i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers.


that`s all in the eyes of a beholder..Israelis consider the land theirs and they see themselves under seige from arabs who want them all dead..I`ve always maintained that if enough suicide bombs go off, Israeli public opinion might turn in favor of deporting all arabs, including Israeli citizens...

Arjun,

Are you going to surprise us all and claim that the election of Hamas as the ruling leadership in Palestine does not disturb, oh mouthpiece of the rightwing? I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers. Israel`s collective policies and implementation of arbitrary imprisonment, land confiscation, martial laws, militarization of the civillian zones AND use of torture makes it clear to ALL Palestinians and the world, that there are TWO sets of laws: one that applies to colonizers and another that applies to the colonized. These kinds of hypocrisies make it possible for Mr. Harris` book to be taken seriously.

And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Human Rights
Detention and Torture
During the course of the Palestinian uprising, the Israeli authorities have conducted a widespread arrest campaign against suspected Palestinian activists. Numerous detainees were held without charge or trial and more were prohibited from receiving visits from lawyers and relatives. (Added 20 October 2003)

---

Key Events

BY TOPIC: Palestinian Prisoners` Hunger Strike (15 August 2004-)


Detention

Prison experience as a normal part of life, Ray Smith (10 February 2005)

Release of children should be a priority, DCI-PS (29 December 2004)

Arrest of Palestinian Human Rights Defender, HRW (6 August 2004)

Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Assume the position: a play about prison is followed by arrests, Amahl Bishara and Nidal al-Azraq (29 May 2004)
2003: The State of Human Rights in Israel, ACRI (10 February 2004)

Marwan Barghouti: ``Why don`t you refuse?``, Arjan El Fassed (29 September 2003)

More Palestinian children taken into custody, DCI-PS (23 September 2003)

Palestinian human rights defender detained for further 6 months without trial, DCI/PS (3 September 2003)

The Israeli Supreme Court approves order denying Palestinian detainee access to legal representation, PCHR (18 August 2003)

Israeli government leaves Palestinian child detainees out of prisoner release, DCI-PS (6 August 2003)

Addameer: Selection of Palestinian detainees to be released solely reflects Israeli criteria, Addameer (5 August 2003).

4,200 Palestinians on Hunger Strike, Kristen Ess and Nada Khair (1 August 2003)

Israeli prison guards use violence against Palestinian female prisoners, PCATI (13 July 2003)

``It is not I who is on trial in Israel``, Marwan Barghouti (3 October 2002)

Israel resumes trial against Barghouti, Arjan El Fassed (6 April 2003)


Secret Prison Facility 1391

Facility 1391: a secret prison (PDF) ICJ report from a hearing in the High Court of Justice in Jerusalem (1 December 2003)

High Court of Justice Ruling on Petition to Close the Secret Detention Facility 1391 (PDF) Observation Mission Avocats San Fontieres (December 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel`s secret prison, Chris McGreal, The Guardian (14 November 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel’s Guantanamo, Jonathan Cook, Le Monde Diplomatique (November 2003)

PCATI to Israeli government: ``Shut down secret detention facility 1391``, PCATI (4 September 2003)

A story from the heart of Israel`s secret prison, Mohammad Daraghmeh (9 July 2003)

High Court Petition on 1391


Torture
Abusive interrogation techniques continue to be practiced in Israel. The Supreme Court there ruled in September 1999 that six frequently-used practices of the Israeli Security Agency (then known as the General Security Service, or GSS) violated existing laws. These included beatings, prolonged sleep deprivation, violent shaking, and prolonged painful positioning. There appears to be agreement among Israeli human rights activists and defense lawyers that these techniques are used less frequently, but have been replaced by techniques that are extremely stressful psychologically, including: greater isolation for longer periods; denial of access to lawyers and family members for extended periods; prolonged interrogation sessions; use of collaborators to threaten detainees; and threats to family members.

The Supreme Court ruling also permits the security agency to claim the “necessity defense” in cases where “exceptional interrogation means” are allegedly needed, as in so-called “ticking bomb” cases. The Israeli daily Ha’aretz reported in July 2002 that the GSS had up to that point employed “exceptional interrogation means” against ninety Palestinians. The readiness of the Attorney General to grant “necessity defense” requests, along with the fact that since 1999 no Israeli Security Agency or GSS officer has faced criminal or disciplinary charges for acts of torture or ill-treatment, appears to have led to an erosion of the restraints initially imposed by the 1999 ruling.

In addition, physical violence—or the threat of it—is often present in the treatment of detainees. Most former detainees interviewed by Human Rights Watch in 2004 described physical abuse at the time of their arrest and transfer to Israeli detention or interrogation centers.

-- from ``Torture Worldwide``, Human Rights Watch (27 April 2005)


Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Israeli link possible in US torture techniques, Ali Abunimah (11 May 2004)

Torture and ill-treatment of child detainees, OMCT (12 December 2003)

Palestinian Political Prisoners, NAD-PLO (July 2003)

Increased reports of torture by Israel in Occupied Territories, IRCT (12 April 2002)

Memorandum to UN Committee Against Torture, Human Rights Watch (May 1998)

Israel: Concluding Observations, UN Committee Against Torture (June 1994)

Torture and Ill-treatment: Israel`s Interrogation of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories, Human Rights Watch (June 1994)


Medical rights

Medical concern for Palestinian detainee held in Ashkelon prison, PCHR (15 October 2003)

Denial of access to medical care in Israeli prisons, OMCT (18 September 2003)


Multimedia

Photostory: Khiam Detention Camp, Arjan El Fassed (30 October 2004)


Diaries

Prisoner stories


Websites

Palestinian Prisoner Society

Sumoud: A Political Prisoner Solidarity Group

Addameer

BY TOPIC: Human Rights Organizations

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24 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 1:03pm PT


You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.


The analogy was made to debunk your claim about Israeli torture leading to the Hamas victory....There is NO analogy, this proving the fallacy of your reasoning..


I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years.


As a % of the jewish population and % of muslim population? If you`re cherry picking data, there`s always a way to spin it..


you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.


globally recognized? India and Pakistan routinely use torture..I`m hoping the US uses torture on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed(or at least something the ACLU considers torture)..

#23 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 12:53pm PT


should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....


I`m an atheist..I don`t believe in the whole soul thing..

Arjun,

What you and Fuzair have focused on is the superficial effects of torture on a civillian population. You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.

What you and Fuzair are also avoiding is the nullifying anc chilling effect the condoned usage of torture has in a conflict between two entities of vastly inequal power. I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years. In addition, compare the number of tortures of Israelis by Palestinians and visa versa. There is simply no comparison. You are asking a civillian population not only to submit to colonialist policies that mandate their third class citizenship in their own countries, but in addition, you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.

Arjun, can you explain what kind of effect the rationalization of what is considered universally UNLAWFUL practice has on any community?

arjun,

geez dude...i have a headache and don`t feel like spoonfeeding you evidence that should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....

#21 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 12:39pm PT


come on...you can do better than that....


Right...the associate-prof doesn`t have to present any argument..or present evidence to the contrary..she can just wave her hand and saying ``you can do better than that`` wins her the debate..

Are you sure you don`t teach 1st grade where you can just win a debate with a student because you`re the teacher..

arjun,

come on...you can do better than that....

Samina:post-hoc ergo propter hoc?

Just because Hamas came into power after Israel tortured the palis, it doesn`t mean there is a cause and effect relationship...
I`m sure Israel tortured more than a few fatah members too..why didn`t fatah win?
hamas came into power because fatah was corrupt..period..

arjun,

is it ridiculous? or are you mad that it`s fairly accurate?

#11 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 8:09am PT


If torture ``works`` how do you explain Hamas`s ascendancy to leadership?


That`s beyond ridiculous and betrays a shallow understanding of how things work in the real world...

It`s like saying torture works because American POWs were tortured and America lost in Vietnam..

I find it unbelievable that this book has been given a PEN award

An excerpt from the review of Sam Harris` book written by David Niose and published in May-June 2005 issue of ``Humanist``.

``As further proof of Harris` lack of ACLU credentials, he avidly argues in favor of torture. He backs the use of torture, he says, if the likelihood of getting useful information ``is even one chance in a million.`` It isn`t just Harris` support of torture that is unsettling but the ease with which he seems to approve of the tactic. ``Why spare the rod with the suspected terrorists?`` he offhandedly ponders. ``If we are unwilling to torture, we should be unwilling to wage modern war,`` he declares, without explaining why.

Harris tries to justify his support of torture by claiming that it`s no worse than the already accepted notion of collateral damage (the unintended killing of innocents in warfare, especially in bombings). Analytically, this argument is full of holes that Harris decides not to address. Even leaving aside the fact that torture and collateral damage bear no relation to one another except that they both involve violence toward human beings, Harris` argument breaks down at the elementary two-wrongs-don`t-make-a-right stage.

If one ever needed proof that not all nontheists are Humanists, Harris has provided us with sufficient evidence. In eagerly supporting torture, he never considers the harm done not just to the victim of torture but to the culture that propagates such practices. What kind of a free, democratic society could so casually allow torture? Perhaps it is an overstatement to claim that ``everything changed`` after 9/11, because hopefully our definition of basic decency hasn`t. Any public psyche that has room for torture as an acceptable practice would seem to be about one step away from 1933 Germany. What kind of men and women would be recruited to do the torturing? Are these folks tomorrow`s political leaders? Harris obviously isn`t troubled by such questions.``

Re: # 14
Saminasha,

Here is a quote from page 198 of the paperback edition of ``The End of Faith``

``I belive that I have successfully argued for the use of torture in any circumstance in which we would be willing to cause collateral damage.`` He goes on to say that it still may sound unacceptable to many but the reasons for not accepting torture, even after he has supposedly made a conclusive case, are neurological (page 199)

Also, here is a link to his artcle ``In Defense of Torture``

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

Is Harris actually advocating torture?


From the PEN website

2005 Awardees
Presented by Dorothy Gallagher

Winner:

Sam Harris: The End of Faith (W.W. Norton & Co.)

The End of Faith is a necessary and stirring jeremiad that sets forth with eloquence and logic the rational, scientific, enlightened case against religious belief. It’s a book that is meant to be controversial and to open the eyes of its readers. In it, Harris takes issue with the moderate, politically correct views of secular centrists. Attacking both Muslim fundamentalists and the Christian right of the Bush administration with equal scorn and fervor, he suggests that it’s long past time for secular moderates to take an extreme attitude toward believers: What will happen, he asks, when people with 10th-century beliefs get possession of 21st-century weaponry? Harris analyzes the world with a humanist’s sympathy, but he has no time for those who murder and torture in the name of beliefs based on ancient concepts that are both unbelievable and, more important, unprovable.

This book, with its homely, well-expressed lessons about the threatening illogic of faith, will be welcomed by people whose reason has been painfully clouded in recent times by what Harris thinks of as the dangerous complacency of toleration. An important book that advances the international debate about the world’s future–about the kind of world we hope to inhabit in the next century…if there is to be a next century.

Re: # 10

I can`t speak for PEN but I guess they gave the award looking at the main theme of the book, which is an examination of religious faith. Sam Harris has, in my opinion, made a very effective case when dealing with the main theme of his book. I find the book lacking when Harris ventures into ``the science of good and evil`` and ``experiments in consciousness`` (the last two chapters of the book)

Rafi

Ref #8
fuzair,

I haven’t seen any data referred to by the people who advocate that torture should be allowed in “ticking bomb” scenarios. However, one of the points that I made in the article is that it’s practically impossible to restrict the usage of torture to a specific situation. Once you allow any government to dispense torture in a ticking bomb scenario, you will suddenly see the rise in such situations. You gave Israel’s example and that’s a very relevant one. In 80’s, the Landau Commission gave permission to Israeli interrogation authorities to use “light physical pressure” in ticking bomb scenarios. It has been reported that 85% of the detainees suffered harsh treatments under that provision. Some commentators noted that the ticking bomb scenarios mostly occurred on the weekdays. Over the weekends, when the interrogators were not working, the “bombs” stopped “ticking”.

Following is a quote from Brigadier General David R. Irvine, who taught prisoner interrogation law in Sixth Army Intelligence School for 18 years. (He was reacting to an article advocating torture in Wall Street Journal)

“The Journal assumes that only the worst of the worst will be subjected to torture when it comes to ticking time bombs. Not only is that assumption unfounded, based upon the widespread abuses in Iraq, it was tried and abandoned by the Israelis. Because it is impossible to confirm with advance certainty what any suspect actually knows, ticking bomb torture can be justified in virtually every interrogation. When Israel experimented with ``torture lite,`` supposedly reserved for ticking-bomb circumstances, it was not long before 85 percent of all Palestinian detainees were being given the harshest treatment allowed. The capability to finely calibrate torture has eluded every democratic government which has tried it.”

re: 8

If torture ``works`` how do you explain Hamas`s ascendancy to leadership?

Writer,

Thanks for the article. I wonder how PEN, a literary organization that champions human rights, will react to this text.

Urs,

Torture has also been used in Central and Latin America and in the Middle East against progressives and women and inflicted by their conservative male fellow citizens.

Torture is inexcusable.

Just a couple of points:

The ``hypothetical`` ticking bomb scenario is not so hypothetical: the Israelis have apparently prevented several attacks on civilian targets in just this way.

Torture works. Unfortunately. How do you think the French Paras stopped the FLN bombings in Algiers? Read the book by General Whats-his-name that recounts exactly how the Paras broke the back of the FLN in Algiers.

++++++++++++++++++

Urstruly:

Your gibberings are so pathetic that one can only pity you. Are you seriously suggesting that no non-European has ever tortured anyone else before the advent of European colonialism?

What an idiot.

This article appears to be a bit long so I only skimmed through it. Frankly, I have not heard of Sam Harris and why should I (or anybody) think like him - we all have our own minds (as well as own hearts and our own senses of right/wrong) to guide us - don`t we?

The bottomlines (from my viewpoint) are

(1) torture is not justified,

(2) tortures (and other forms of human cruelty to other humans) have always been present - even in peace time but especially during the times of war - mercifully, it has only been in form of isolated events in case of this country

(3) people who practice torture must be held accountable through due process, yet

(4) very few will be, because many would be considered the ``good guys``.

#1 Dr. Gill,

I think of the effect of 9/11 on American values less pessimistically than you appear to - I see it more as a temporary setback. The pendulum always tends to swing - and sometimes it may appear to swing too far - but 9/11 was no ordinary event! The stable point has not yet been reached and perhaps it will indeed end up a bit more to the right of where it was pre 9/11. But my faith in the people of this country remains intact - in fact it was strongly reinforced in the aftermath of 9/11 itself - in how the people at large NOT reacted to it - therein lies the true strength of this country!

pathetic creatures like Harris -- they think that just because we are world self-deluded self- appointed police men -- we can invade foreign lands, enter foreigner`s homes at the dead of the night -- haul their fathers, sons and husbands to Abu Gharib -- and start torturing them left and right by torturing the English Syntax -- and everything will be dandy morally and judicially -- they are in for real suprise -- once they are out of power -- all those chickens are coming home to roost -- the whole Bush cabal is going to jail.....for corruption and crime against humanity.......

...despite their cynical tortured vocabulary.....

Scenario of torture as a deterrent to criminal activity is a myth. It is reassuring that Rafi Aamer has argued against justifications for torture provided by Sam Harris. This article is very timely in current socio-political climate.

Let us first look at the very idea of torture. Physical and/or mental pain has been used and is still being used in various societies as a tool for political objectives as well as in criminal justice system. In political situations, it is obviously illegal and is condoned by none, theoretically. Let us put the idea of torture in proper perspective. In Laski’s words,

“Civilization means, above all, an unwillingness to inflict unnecessary pain”.

However, prevalent idea is that use of pain is a good measure to get even in cases of crimes. It has also been argued that inflicting pain also helps prevent crimes; hence moral justification for use of pain or in other words torture.

When it comes to inflicting pain as a societal attitude for any of the above reasons, I think religions and secular systems have been incredibly similar as they both resort to using pain (in various forms). Needless to say, religious commandments for inflicting pain (Torture) are for ever contrary to secular understanding, which does have the capacity to adjust to new realities on the basis of available data, at least theoretically.

I am not sure what kind of data was available to Sam Harris that he concluded to justify use of torture for prevention of imaginary crimes. Imaginary crime scenarios are an unending slippery slope that has the capacity to create hellish set-ups for dissenting views in a society. It is also fairly clear that crimes would have been eradicated from human civilization, had the idea of inflicting pian (Punishment or torture) been valid given the long history of use of torture. Even modern data from criminal systems do not support justification for torture provided by Sam Harris. As I said, it is only secular systems that have the capacity to evolve as the human experience grows; I think Rafi Aamer has done a very good job in providing critique of Sam Harris in this article, which hopefully would help Mr. Harris rethink his ideas.

Regards.

right..NOW pakis care about american values..

On one hand American values are bad because the gitmo terrorists are being force fed..

OTOH, pakis want some payola from Uncle Sam because Pakiland arrested a majority of the terrorists who`re now in gitmo..

so which one is it? the payola or the moral high ground..

Torture, exile, rendering, kidnapping, and targeted assasinations are all those tactics that all colonial powers prior to Us used on conquered people to keep them intimidated into submission. Lets not forget the Guantanamo Bays of British era i.e. dungeons and torture complexes that British built in islands of Malta, Indeman, Marituis, West Indies, and Fiji. Descendents of our freedom fighters who were exiled there still live. However, Malta and Indeman were the true Gitmos with torture, isolation and death. Incarceration into those camps used to be called Kalapaani ki saza. And it has since then become a proverb.

Therefore, the death camps like Gitmo and those outsourced to other countries are here to stay, as long as the basic character of aggression on the other countries will remain. From time to time propaganda machinery relaeases images and news of torture and humiliation, pictures like that of Abu Gharaib and Pul Charkhi to intimidate masses. It is deliberate. If it is not deliberate then can anyone say with utmost certainity that torture cells and death camps in Iraq have been dismanteled in Iraq/ Can anyone say that toture and `extrordinary rendering` that is kidnapping has stopped after they discovered torture cells in European countries? So it is all a part of the game plan. The bigger evil is the aggression on other countries under any pretext. Stop that - no ifs ands or buts - and torture will stop automatically.

Mr. Gill,

Thank you for your encouragement. I think it`s unfortunate that subsequent to 9/11 attacks, all the luminaries of Bush administration said repeatedly that the attacks were attempted at American values and then they started the work to dismantle those very values.

Rafi

Rafi Aamer Sahib:
The greatest blow that 9/11 has served was to the American values. Torture and hidden torture (see my article ``Extreme Rendition,`` Chowk, February 21, 2005) together with domestic surveillance were categorically unacceptable before 9/11. Now people like Sam Harris are bending backwards to justify them.
Mr. Aamer`s article is timely and enlightening for its accurate analysis. I enjoyed reading the article.
Mohammad Gill