Tortured Justification of Torture

dear kaalchakra
would you be kind enough to share your views about the personality, philosophy and politics of Mohandas Gandhi. it seems as if you have strong views about him. sincerely sohail

dr sahib

There is something missing in the head of a left-wing philosopher who cannot see an occasion to become a right-wing political activist. Yes, Gandhi was one such left-wing philosopher, and for that mistake he is criticized.

Dear Rafi Aamer,
Your article on chowk.com inspired me to read Sam Harris’s book The End of Faith. It was one of the most provocative books I have ever read. Sam Harris has shared his truth openly and honestly. In spite of my many disagreements with him I enjoyed reading his challenges to traditional ideologies, beliefs and blind faiths. He is very emotional, sentimental and passionate about his logical and rational thinking.
If someone asked me, “What are the three most important ideas presented in the book, I would have said, “ Sam Harris believes that for the future evolution of humanity we need
…human beings motivated by love and compassion
…communities and cultures based on secular and humanistic values
and
…the abolition of organized religions and blind faiths which are major obstacles to human growth and progress.
If someone asked me three shortcomings of Sam Harris as a writer I would say,
…his thinking is over-inclusive. I felt as if there were 300 ideas in 300 pages. It reminded me of a Chinese Buffet with 100 items for dinner.
It was difficult to eat or even taste all the items. As a reader I felt overwhelmed and bombarded with ideas.
…Sam Harris is very reactionary regarding the Sep 11th, 2001 tragedy. His political views about the world situation in the last four years blur his insights into the struggles of humanity about the beliefs of God and religions over the last four thousand years.
and
…Sam Harris sounds more anti-religion than pro-Humanism. His bias, even prejudice, against Middle Eastern monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity and especially Islam—is quite pronounced, compared to the soft corner in his heart for Buddhism.
Sam Harris has tried to build a case against blind faith from two sides: scientific and rational thinking from the outside and spiritual and mystical experiences from the inside. His arguments seem philosophically strong but psychologically weak. He starts his discourse as a left wing philosopher but ends as a right wing political activist. By favoring war and torture to promote peace he becomes his own worst enemy. His arguments are least convincing when he attacks Mohandas Gandhi and Noam Chomsky. Challenging Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussain is one thing but to justify bombing Afghanistan and Iraq is another matter. From that position he sounds like a more rationalizing than rational writer.
As a secular humanist I support his criticisms of organized religions but as a peace loving person I cannot agree with his support of torture and war.
It seems to me that Sam Harris as a writer has serious unresolved conflicts, philosophically and psychologically. Since he writes with passion he can provoke strong emotional reactions. You can love or hate but cannot ignore such a writer. He seems to have a PhD in controversy. Since he is young and energetic, maybe with the passage of time he might realize that winning arguments is easier than winning hearts, confrontation is easier than compassion and gaining knowledge is easier than acquiring wisdom.
As a psychotherapist I realize that developing a humanistic philosophy by reading hundreds of books is easier than developing a humanistic personality, for which one needs to do some profound, painful and complex emotional work. Some atheists have personalities as extremist as those of their religious opponents. I feel that Sam Harris has a long way to go to embrace inner and outer peace and develop compassion for Easterners rather than promoting war as a Westerner.
Dear Rafi.
I would like to thank you and the editors of chowk.com who inspired me to read The End of Faith. I do not have faith in organized religions but I have faith in myself and the future of humanity. I am hopeful that we as human beings will evolve to a stage where we will rise above the man made dichotomies of East and West, Muslim and Non-Muslim, First and Third World, Us and Them and realize that our enemies are our distant cousins.
Sincerely,
Sohail

#31 by Saminasha on February 11, 2006 12:45pm PT


So, whatever Israel does on its own dime is fine with you....


well.. yes..

A bigger evil does not justify a lesser evil, I agree with you there. However I disagree when you say <<< Collateral damage is always considered an unintended consequence of war. Nobody, at least in theory, intentionally perpetrates collateral damage >>>

Those who design weapons like the moab bomb know that it is going to kill people across a wide parameter. They are premeditating mass murder and they are mass murderers. George Bush is a mass murderer, he sent dozens of cruise missiles into the heart of baghdad in order to assasinate one man, he dropped 4 2000lbs bombs on a civilian neighbourhood restaurant to kill that same one man, and these are just two cases. No two ways about it. All wars fought with such weapons are illegal and immoral regardless of the rhetoric.

Re: # 33
masadi,

Thanks for your comments. What you have raised are valid points for another discussion. I just wanted to tackle the comparison Sam Harris made on purely theoretical basis. That is why I added the words ```at least in theory`` in the sentence you quoted.

Rafi

Rafi,

Very interesting. I have Sam`s book next to my bedside lamp for the past few weeks and I have been planning to read past the first few pages. I had read a brief excerpt elsewhere on his book and that was quite interesting. It seems that there is more to it. An antidote to Sam`s theory would be, ``Why religion matters`` by Huston Smith. Take a look at it.

Z

Arjun,

So, whatever Israel does on its own dime is fine with you....

I swear, one of these days you are going to break out in teddy bears and heart candy (eye roll)

#29 by Saminasha on February 11, 2006 5:48am PT


its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.


Trouble with reading? comprehension-challenged?


i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


What part of ``my opinion: The US should stop aid to Israel`` and ``on their own dime`` wasn`t clear?

Arjun,

Ah, another touching viewpoint from our resident fascist...i swear, Arjun, it seems when you post, there isnt a dry hanky in the house...

along with your lazy justifications of zionism, you`ve thrown in a whopper of a lie....its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.

Now, where is the liberty and democratic process in that?

#27 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 3:05pm PT


And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Total strawman..What`s this, national logical fallacy day?

Show me where I`ve said criticizing zionism (or Israel for that matter) is anti-semitism...And then i`ll show you my posts where i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers.


that`s all in the eyes of a beholder..Israelis consider the land theirs and they see themselves under seige from arabs who want them all dead..I`ve always maintained that if enough suicide bombs go off, Israeli public opinion might turn in favor of deporting all arabs, including Israeli citizens...

Arjun,

Are you going to surprise us all and claim that the election of Hamas as the ruling leadership in Palestine does not disturb, oh mouthpiece of the rightwing? I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers. Israel`s collective policies and implementation of arbitrary imprisonment, land confiscation, martial laws, militarization of the civillian zones AND use of torture makes it clear to ALL Palestinians and the world, that there are TWO sets of laws: one that applies to colonizers and another that applies to the colonized. These kinds of hypocrisies make it possible for Mr. Harris` book to be taken seriously.

And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Human Rights
Detention and Torture
During the course of the Palestinian uprising, the Israeli authorities have conducted a widespread arrest campaign against suspected Palestinian activists. Numerous detainees were held without charge or trial and more were prohibited from receiving visits from lawyers and relatives. (Added 20 October 2003)

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Key Events

BY TOPIC: Palestinian Prisoners` Hunger Strike (15 August 2004-)


Detention

Prison experience as a normal part of life, Ray Smith (10 February 2005)

Release of children should be a priority, DCI-PS (29 December 2004)

Arrest of Palestinian Human Rights Defender, HRW (6 August 2004)

Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Assume the position: a play about prison is followed by arrests, Amahl Bishara and Nidal al-Azraq (29 May 2004)
2003: The State of Human Rights in Israel, ACRI (10 February 2004)

Marwan Barghouti: ``Why don`t you refuse?``, Arjan El Fassed (29 September 2003)

More Palestinian children taken into custody, DCI-PS (23 September 2003)

Palestinian human rights defender detained for further 6 months without trial, DCI/PS (3 September 2003)

The Israeli Supreme Court approves order denying Palestinian detainee access to legal representation, PCHR (18 August 2003)

Israeli government leaves Palestinian child detainees out of prisoner release, DCI-PS (6 August 2003)

Addameer: Selection of Palestinian detainees to be released solely reflects Israeli criteria, Addameer (5 August 2003).

4,200 Palestinians on Hunger Strike, Kristen Ess and Nada Khair (1 August 2003)

Israeli prison guards use violence against Palestinian female prisoners, PCATI (13 July 2003)

``It is not I who is on trial in Israel``, Marwan Barghouti (3 October 2002)

Israel resumes trial against Barghouti, Arjan El Fassed (6 April 2003)


Secret Prison Facility 1391

Facility 1391: a secret prison (PDF) ICJ report from a hearing in the High Court of Justice in Jerusalem (1 December 2003)

High Court of Justice Ruling on Petition to Close the Secret Detention Facility 1391 (PDF) Observation Mission Avocats San Fontieres (December 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel`s secret prison, Chris McGreal, The Guardian (14 November 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel’s Guantanamo, Jonathan Cook, Le Monde Diplomatique (November 2003)

PCATI to Israeli government: ``Shut down secret detention facility 1391``, PCATI (4 September 2003)

A story from the heart of Israel`s secret prison, Mohammad Daraghmeh (9 July 2003)

High Court Petition on 1391


Torture
Abusive interrogation techniques continue to be practiced in Israel. The Supreme Court there ruled in September 1999 that six frequently-used practices of the Israeli Security Agency (then known as the General Security Service, or GSS) violated existing laws. These included beatings, prolonged sleep deprivation, violent shaking, and prolonged painful positioning. There appears to be agreement among Israeli human rights activists and defense lawyers that these techniques are used less frequently, but have been replaced by techniques that are extremely stressful psychologically, including: greater isolation for longer periods; denial of access to lawyers and family members for extended periods; prolonged interrogation sessions; use of collaborators to threaten detainees; and threats to family members.

The Supreme Court ruling also permits the security agency to claim the “necessity defense” in cases where “exceptional interrogation means” are allegedly needed, as in so-called “ticking bomb” cases. The Israeli daily Ha’aretz reported in July 2002 that the GSS had up to that point employed “exceptional interrogation means” against ninety Palestinians. The readiness of the Attorney General to grant “necessity defense” requests, along with the fact that since 1999 no Israeli Security Agency or GSS officer has faced criminal or disciplinary charges for acts of torture or ill-treatment, appears to have led to an erosion of the restraints initially imposed by the 1999 ruling.

In addition, physical violence—or the threat of it—is often present in the treatment of detainees. Most former detainees interviewed by Human Rights Watch in 2004 described physical abuse at the time of their arrest and transfer to Israeli detention or interrogation centers.

-- from ``Torture Worldwide``, Human Rights Watch (27 April 2005)


Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Israeli link possible in US torture techniques, Ali Abunimah (11 May 2004)

Torture and ill-treatment of child detainees, OMCT (12 December 2003)

Palestinian Political Prisoners, NAD-PLO (July 2003)

Increased reports of torture by Israel in Occupied Territories, IRCT (12 April 2002)

Memorandum to UN Committee Against Torture, Human Rights Watch (May 1998)

Israel: Concluding Observations, UN Committee Against Torture (June 1994)

Torture and Ill-treatment: Israel`s Interrogation of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories, Human Rights Watch (June 1994)


Medical rights

Medical concern for Palestinian detainee held in Ashkelon prison, PCHR (15 October 2003)

Denial of access to medical care in Israeli prisons, OMCT (18 September 2003)


Multimedia

Photostory: Khiam Detention Camp, Arjan El Fassed (30 October 2004)


Diaries

Prisoner stories


Websites

Palestinian Prisoner Society

Sumoud: A Political Prisoner Solidarity Group

Addameer

BY TOPIC: Human Rights Organizations

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24 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 1:03pm PT


You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.


The analogy was made to debunk your claim about Israeli torture leading to the Hamas victory....There is NO analogy, this proving the fallacy of your reasoning..


I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years.


As a % of the jewish population and % of muslim population? If you`re cherry picking data, there`s always a way to spin it..


you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.


globally recognized? India and Pakistan routinely use torture..I`m hoping the US uses torture on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed(or at least something the ACLU considers torture)..

#23 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 12:53pm PT


should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....


I`m an atheist..I don`t believe in the whole soul thing..

Arjun,

What you and Fuzair have focused on is the superficial effects of torture on a civillian population. You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.

What you and Fuzair are also avoiding is the nullifying anc chilling effect the condoned usage of torture has in a conflict between two entities of vastly inequal power. I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years. In addition, compare the number of tortures of Israelis by Palestinians and visa versa. There is simply no comparison. You are asking a civillian population not only to submit to colonialist policies that mandate their third class citizenship in their own countries, but in addition, you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.

Arjun, can you explain what kind of effect the rationalization of what is considered universally UNLAWFUL practice has on any community?

arjun,

geez dude...i have a headache and don`t feel like spoonfeeding you evidence that should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....