Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

ylh: I am curious as to what it is about qudrutullah shahab you find idiotic?? as I recall hearing from people who knew him first hand, he was a public servant in the true sense of the word, highly competent and hard-working. btw, he even made a undercover trip to Israel on pakistan - and that was back in the 1960`s!!

hope that last thing does not turn urstruly against him. :-)

is shahabnama included in pakistaniyat studies? if no, why not?

#368 by SR

Actually that iceberg blue bombay gin is rather nice.

Rgds

#413 by hamidm2

LoL .. You forgot to add ``Verily`` !

Re: # 386 YLH {``...As much as I have a distaste for your writings... I must say that what you said about Shahab Nama is absolutely the truth... Qudratullah Shahab was an idiot amongst idiots ... it is ironic that Urstruly - the self proclaimed opponent of military rule- is such a big fan of Qudratullah Shahab... who was after all the Ayub-appointed grand liqiuidator of the Pakistan Times ... the progressive anti-Military anti-establishment paper in Pakistan... ``}

It is good to have a convergence of views from time to time. Occasionally, I also find myself in accord with your opinions.

Without meaning to be patronising I must say that you`ve matured and improved your writing skills over the years. Of course, I am referring to your college days in New Brunswick.

...SR

zeemax,

``Is something on these lines, minus the torture part etc. the need of the time? ``

...... yes, but given the type of folks we are dealing with, torture is an essential part of the program ........ as it clearly says in the koran :`` laton kay bhoot baton say nahin mantey``

Well .. this article will be in the depths of chowk archives tomorrow .. it`ll disappear .. but the issue debated so vigorously here will not. I wish to thank Mr. masadi for having the courage of his own convictions, and not of anyone else`s, though perhaps influenced by Zakir Naek.

Maybe the final word. `Koran Alone` school has problems passing either the scientific test, or the logic test. It`s problems get worse with Koran+Ahadees school since it then fails the credibility test as well. With Koran+Ahadees+History school, such as Maudoodi, it becomes credible but then fails on the present day morality test. So only school left is `Bila`Kaif` which means `Without Hesitation`. Take it at its word. Don`t question or try to justify.

There is still another option, but that is heretical. An extract:

Mu`tazili theology developed in the 8th century, and by the early 9th century became the official court belief of the Abbasid Caliphate, when it was officially adopted by the caliph Al-Ma`mun. While Mu`tazilism took hold among officials and in intellectual circles, its public appeal was limited.

Under al-Ma`mun, an inquisition-like persecution (Arabic: Mihna ``Ordeal`` 833-848) was undertaken against scholars who did not adhere to Mu`tazili thought. Its main form was forcing non-adherents to renounce the doctrine that the Qur`an was eternal, and instead attest that it was created. The most famous victims of the Mihna were Ahmad Ibn Hanbal who was imprisoned and tortured, and the judge Ahmad Ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i who was crucified. In another famous incident, Muslim prisoners of war held by the Byzantine Empire were only freed if they attested that the Qur`an was created, not eternal. Later the famous Hadith scholar al-Bukhari was also tested regarding his beliefs about the Qur`an.

The Mu`tazili school eventually lost the support of rulers and high ranking officials. By the 13th century, the theology ceased to exist.

Is something on these lines, minus the torture part etc. the need of the time?

Rgds

Re: # 407

{#407 by burpinder on February 20, 2006 5:47am PT

``Just three words Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds attributed to Zarathushtra is enough for humanity today.``

That`s 6 words, retardo}

Yup, you are right. Just checking to see if any one was counting.

Could it not be just 4 words?

Hello masadi and/or urstruly and/or whoever:

This is what my Zoroastrian friend sends me this morning.

Let us read this together:

{The Quran contains dozens of verses that preach hostility to Pagans (polytheists, Zoroastrian ‘fire-worshippers’ and atheists), Jews and Christians. It denounces their teachings as false and evil and a sure passport to hell. By modern Western standards the author of the Quran is entitled to his freedom of opinion on religions. But by KifKif standards, these insulting comments on other people’s religions are not so innocent and ought to be curtailed, especially in a multicultural society. (And indeed, the orthodox sources agree that it was Muhammad’s lifetime achievement to have transformed Arabia’s multicultural society into a monolithic Islamic one.)}

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/825

Respectfully submitted,

386 by Mantolives

“As much as I have a distaste for your writings... I must say that what you said about Shahab Nama is absolutely the truth...”

Yassar,

I agree with you on your views abt SR’s simplistic and often ridiculous posts, I also agree with your views of Shahab. He was merely a Bureaucrat who did his job like many others in Pakistan do.

I must say that his book, classic or not, “Shahab nama” was interesting and a very good read. I read it a long time ago and I envy Urstruly for his photographic memory. What he quoted was not only funny but brought out an important aspect of Indian life. If nothing else, Shahab was a good writer and we should be able to sometime raise ourselves a little above our preconceived notions and biases to appreciate a good literary work.

If you have not read the book, I recommend you read it without worrying abt Shahab’s personal shenanigans. It is an informative book and you get a good picture of pre-partition India and a civil servant’s mindset after the independence.

I don’t know if can find Gen Ayub Khan’s book “Friends, Not Masters” in the market now. But if you are really interested in finding out abt the struggle for constitution and the army’s mind in the 50s, that book is a must read. Recall that he was the only person in Pakistan who could write things without any censorship at that time. Most other books pale in comparison to the insights that Ayub Khan provided or Altaf Gohar provided as he was the real author and interviewed Ayub Khan extensively for the book.

Thanks.

masadi,

What was I trying to prove?

Yes, I stated the contrapositive. So.....what have you perceived from that about what I am trying to claim? The purpose of all the mails was to see if you would agree with the contrapositive so that we could carry forth a conversation. Each time I thought you agreed, you sent back a letter implying that you did not. Since I am still intrigued by the statement I am asking if others can also help. Like I mentioned in my first post to you, I still believe the statement is made by ``my kind of a God``. You have problems with that then learn to live with it.

Re: # 45

``Just three words Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds attributed to Zarathushtra is enough for humanity today.``

That`s 6 words, retardo

#405 the article was OK - i dont agree with it, but everyone is entitled to his personal views as long as he doesnt present them as God Almighty`s Truth. it is in the interacts that masadi put on his other hat of God Almighty. :-)

People are getting unnecessarily worked up over this article. As much as brother Masadi annoys me I think he`s pretty harmless. He hasn`t expressed any desire to impose any of that shariah crap and as long as he respects other peoples right not to believe than alls good. I read this article as being more about a personal journey than anything else.

and nor can you. at least while you hold on to your prejudices of ``Evil Islam`` as tightly as urstruly and masadi hold on to their prejudices of ``Evil West``. (add this after the last sentence in #403):

hamidm: You cant be dishonest and humorous at the same time - at least not in my book. Although of course there is no shortage of individuals on chowk who think you are being funny every time you deliver your Pat Robertson Sermon about Evil Islam on chowk. Mullah Omar cant be funny. Pat Robertson cant be funny.