Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

Dear Manto Sahib,

Did MAJ do any bad/wrong thing ever in his life?
In the history of mankind has a greater human being been ever born except of course Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and yourself?

Regards

Dear Harish,

Still abusing, insulting, huffing and puffing I see. You must be really upset that you`ve returned for another day of the ``teaching`` me a ``lesson``, all for exposing Gandhi as the racist, casteist, misogynist Hindu fanatic that he was. It is not my fault that Gandhi considered black people subhuman or was all for closing up women in doors or wanted to continue the caste system... those were uniquely his flaws.

Well here are two further points ...

1- My ``unique interpretation`` of history is amazingly shared by Ayesha Jalal, H M Seervai, Anil Seal, Asiananda, Patrick French, H V Hodson, Irfan Habib, Ainslee T Embree and a countless host of other Indian and western scholars... of the list given above only one is Pakistani.


2- As for evidence for that statement being from 1940- here it is once again:


#455 by Mantolives on February 21, 2006 4:12am PT
The typewriter fallacy..

The Real Statement (1940 speech) is:

‘My entire equipment is confined to an attache case, a type writer and a personal assistant’.

(Speeches and statements of Mr. Jinnah Vol 1 Ashraf Lahore 1960)


In the ‘Formative Phase’ (Chap 6 ‘The Muslim League: Its Role and Organisation’ on Page 176 OUP Karachi 2nd Edition) Khalid Bin Sayeed gives this footnote:

‘This statement is a speech made in 1940 in which Jinnah urged Muslims to strengthen the Muslim League organization and pointed out that it was only after Muslims were well organized that he would give them the Marching orders.’

#486 by Mantolives

[If you recall you claimed you will never indulge me in debate again because you had succeeded (allegedly) in achieving your objectives.]

Dear Yasser, yet another instance of your poor English comprehension skills? How many more times will you prove that your entire perception of Jinnah (which obviously differs from what most authors) is based solely on your unique interpretation of history flowing through either your imagination or your poor comprehension skills.

[The only person blabbering here is you and the realisation must kill you- you`ve wasted another day debating with me who you`ve ``taught`` a lesson so many times.]

Not really! Your twists and turns and desperation are worth the effort.

[Hearsay my friend was never admissible anywhere.]

Coming from you, this is really rich. I mean, for years now you`ve been saying Jinnah meant this Jinnah meant that, but as they say actions speak louder than words. Jinnah`s legacy is one of the single most distastrous events in the history of mankind, comparable with the holocaust, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

[Here is the process]

If it is so easy, why don`t you produce evidence to show that the 1940 statement you provided is the same as the one Rafiq Zakaria, Ayaz Amir, and G M Syed ``misunderstood``. Should be a cakewalk no?

[I know because I used to quote the type writer Pakistan statement all the time till I realised that it was merely a distortion.]

Was it realization based on some concrete evidence, or was it one of the ``because I think so`` things? For far too long, we`ve only been hearing about Jinnah meaning this, but doing exactly the opposite. If I had a nickel every time Jinnah was ``misunderstood`` (that is, as per your spin), I would be a billionaire by now.

I accept - the statement was badly worded.

However I am not asking him to leave... I am just trying to determine why he chooses to stick around. He certainly wasn`t born there ...

No comparison with Farzana is on. Farzana was born and raised an Indian..

Re: # 504

Dear tahmed32:

Although you are asking {masadi:
So where exactly do you plan to go to free yourself from your misery?? }

I know that he will go in circles to catch his tail. Poor wretched soul.

Respectfully submitted,

dm: i agree with you that the english language itself is changing, of course - but then, it has been changing through the ages, from the anglo-saxon language of the 7th century with danish added (virtually all english words with the letters ``sk`` like sky, skill and so on are of danish/viking origin); latin; french. there is a fascinating book ``the story of english`` that relates this, btw.

dost mittar: i think you would be better off trying to control the sea tides than trying to control the emergence of a single language.

the reasons i say that we are headed for a common language (and that language is english) whether we like it or not are as follows:

1. There has been an explosion in knowledge over the past half century, and thus a vast increase in the need for scientific terms. While latin served this purpose for the western world (and later for the westernized world) for the past few centuries, increasingly it is in english that phrases and words are being coined. The result: today english has a vocabulary of over 4 million words while french has around 100,000 (i remember reading this somewhere). urdu probably has even less (just look up any urdu dictionary), and other subcontinent languages probably even less.

So how is the deficit being met? through use of english words. This ``pidgin`` urdu in pakistan or hinglish in india is a reflection of this. The french even tried unsuccessfully in the 1960`s to legislate against use of english words in public displays etc., and failed. there is no turning back the tide.

2. Language is wrapped up in all sorts of emotions (the more backward the people, the more emotional they get on non-economic issues like language, ethnicity, religion, as evidenced by communal riots in india, sectarian violence in pakistan, the furor over cartoons). But nevertheless, language is ultimately a means of communication. And just as surely as water will carve out the path of least resistance to its flow, so too will people when communicating.

So, while i too feel sorry that all these different cultures we grew up with are disappearing, along with the languages - there is no turning back the tide.

tahmed32#491:

Tahmed saheb, one can look at it in another way - this topic is so relevant that it is being discussed even in English. Just because English is the language of globalisation does not meant that other languages have become irrelevant or will stop evolving. God forbid we ever have to live in a world with only one language, even in Canada we have two official languages and the government makes many of its publications available in many languages, including Urdu and Punjabi.

Let us also remember that English was not always the lingua franca of the world and there is no guarantee that it will remain so for ever. Even the global English has changed from British to American and is now changing into Internet English where for is `4`, two is `2` and you is `u`. As for the future, the brightest and the best of Uncle Sam`s children are learning mandarin to prepare for the future world.

#505


The US is like Pakistan in this regard. There are tons of people in Pakistan who hate Pakistan but live (happily) there too. You can live in the US and hate it too. It is the only country where people can burn flags out of sheer love for the country.

{#500 by Mantolives on February 22, 2006 7:26am PT
Dear Masadi...

Please tell us one thing. Why is it that if you hate the US so much ... do you continue to reside there.. }

hehehe..manto its like asking ferzana to buy one way ticket to kabul..LOL

masadi: There is certainly no place on earth you are going to find a ``level playing field``.

You could try Saudi Arabia - but first time some drunk, overspeeding saudi prince (yes, virginia, there is indeed such a thing as a Drunk, Overspeeding Saudi Prince - and indeed not one but hundreds maybe thousands) smashes your car, you not the prince would be arrested on the Saudi logic that if you had not entered Saudi Arabia in the first place, the Saudi Prince would not have smashed your car. Of course, you will find lots of rich, US haters in Saudi Arabia, so at least that should keep you happy. (Except they may not want to share their views with a mere immigrant).

So where exactly do you plan to go to free yourself from your misery??

#502 by masadi on February 22, 2006 9:14am PT


The US does not present a ``level playing field``.


You`re mistaking level playing field with an equal outcome..Even on a level playing field, the US soccer team would almost always lose to the Brazilian soccer team..level playing field means everyone has the same opportunity..it doesn`t guarantee an outcome..


the top 1% of the population controls more wealth than the bottom 99% combined, how can that translate into a ``level playing field``?


allah made 1% of people smart and intelligent and the other 99%, not so smart..and yet he`s created a world in which smart and intelligent poeple are more likely to do better..

Even allah hasn`t created a level playing field...what`s up with that?


What about those poor souls?


We`re enjoying the misery..thanks for asking..when you leave, we`ll miss your tax $$ financing our war machines...OTOH, maulana urstruly is sure to have a few legitimate offsprings who`ll grow up to be tax payers, disconcerting as the thought of urstruly having kids may be..

#500, Manto writes <<< USA is a great success... the reason why there aren`t any spontaneous revolutions by the proletariat ... is because unless you are an utter and total bum.. US presents a level playing field where you can secure the future of your family... >>>

The US does not present a ``level playing field``. In a society that is based upon purchasing power where the top 1% of the population controls more wealth than the bottom 99% combined, how can that translate into a ``level playing field``?

My being here or not has nothing to do with the fact that the US elite are tyrants. I am not the only one suffering here there are millions of others. I have an option though and soon I will excersie that option to escape from this misery. What about the others whose existance has been reduced to cheerful bondage in pursuit of a dream that will never materialize? What about those poor souls?

#495 by masadi on February 22, 2006 6:49am PT


Since when did mass action determine what the truth was?


Since muslims claimed non-muslims need to be deferential to mohammed because 1.2 billion people think he rocks..

comrade masadi..you can`t have it both ways...one one hand you say islam rocks because it`s the fastest growing religion..OTOH you say mass actions don`t determine the truth..

Dear Masadi...

Please tell us one thing. Why is it that if you hate the US so much ... do you continue to reside there.. I am sorry I have to call a spade a spade ... but given your angst... I would imagine you would live somewhere else...

USA is a great success... the reason why there aren`t any spontaneous revolutions by the proletariat ... is because unless you are an utter and total bum.. US presents a level playing field where you can secure the future of your family...

further to #498 (but will inshallah return in a few hours to respond to any comments you may have).