Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

matolives/masadi: Nice chatting with you gentlemen. I must sign off now. Regards.

#495 you are entitled to your views. but you missed the point i reminded you of again. :-)

mantolives #493 That is indeed true. Jinnah was very much in the tradition of the spirit of enlightenment and the age of reason. The ``pursuit of happiness`` does indeed sound a triviality, given the grave problems of poverty and political instability in Pakistan. But I think as an ideal it is in fact a very serious one. After all, God himself gave us the power to smile and to laugh and to enjoy the fruits of the earth (without going over certain common sense limits of course). And we must look beyond the problems of today (the mullah-gardi, e.g.) to what we can potentially achieve as human beings - which is indeed very exciting things like expanding our scientific knowledge.

The ``pursuit of happiness`` is not mere indulging one`s appetites (as exemplified by our nihari-eating ex-prime minister), but of reaching for the stars (if I may put it a bit metaphorically). And human liberty is a means to it, as is economic progress and political stability.

#494 tahmed writes <<< (and you are dead wrong here anyway - why do you think people come from all over the world to the US?? in pursuit of sadness??? >>>>

Cultural hegemony and fake propaganda coupled with the crumbs that the US elite hands out to cheap labor is what brings people here. Since when did mass action determine what the truth was? I am not obsessed with anything just restoring dignity to the vast majority of humankind that has been robbed from it by this miserable elite you worship, at the same time, I cannot stand by and see you sell the ``American dream`` like a cheap insurance salesman when the reality of the situation is much different.

masadi #492 I am not discussing the extent to which the US has attained its ideal of ``life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness`` (and you are dead wrong here anyway - why do you think people come from all over the world to the US?? in pursuit of sadness???

What I am discussing is the merits of these words as an ideal . The fact that the point of my discussion escaped you is just another demonstration of your obsession with demonizing the US.

Tahmed...

Agreed...

Life and Liberty sounds good... ``pursuit of happiness`` is too sissy...

John Locke said ``Life Liberty and Property``- he was the father of modern society after all... John Locke was an inspiration after all to both Jefferson and Jinnah... Jinnah`s 11th August speech echoes John Locke`s ``On Toleration``.

Also readily available from Jinnah`s speeches... Equality, Fraternity and Social Justice... sounds similar to Equality Fraternity and Liberty from the French Revolution...

#490, tahmed32 writes <<< What do you think of the oft-repeated words of the US constitution: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? >>>

Fake propaganda that is what I think of these three words when they are applied to the US. Neither is opportunity to life equal, as revealed by the varying life expectancies based upon income and wealth, neither is liberty equal based upon access to the kinds of lawyers a person can afford, and of course happiness is what the vast majority of the US population never attains but is always after (in the form of material products), giving rise to massive consumerism. That is what I think of those three words. Tahmed why don`t you just set up a temple to worship the American elite. You support them moreso than you support the Quran or Islam. In fact you often side with these sobs to attack my every point of view. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness: you never lose an opportunity to glorify the world`s worst terrorists and their propaganda, do you?

dost mittar: I think it is supremely ironic that everyone is predicting the future being ``urdu`` or variations thereof - in english

There is an even greater influence on language than bollywood, believe it or not. It is globalization. And globalization has led to the emergency of a standard communication protocol in computer networks, whereby TCP/IP has emerged from among many contenders as the standard protocol for the internet and therefore for all computer networks. Similarly, like it or not, english has emerged as the standard communication protocol among human networks. To the extent that even proponents of urdu, panjabi etc. make their case in english, as pointed out above. :-)

Mantolives: Greetings.

The ``unity, faith, discipline`` motto was no doubt appropriate for the struggle for Pakistan. ``justice, fairplay and impartiality`` is certainly what is needed for nation-building (as opposed to struggling to acquire a nation to begin with). But even this does not go far enough, I think, in terms of placing the individual in control of his/her life. What do you think of the oft-repeated words of the US constitution: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Dear Tahmed...

The motto Ittehad Tanzeem Yaqeen Muhkam ... Unity of Pakistan, Discipline of the Ranks and Faith in one`s ability ... finds expression only once...

But I like the motto that Punjab University put up right up with a Jinnah picture to go with it on the Nehar after crushing the Jamiat in 2001... ``Justice Fairplay Impartiality``

Urstruly, Naqshbandi:

Re. Urdu

I am torn between heart and mind on this issue. I really love when someone speaks refined Urdu and I try to do so myself to the extent that my Punjabi background would permit me. I also love pure Hindi and pure Punjabi. I should use ``pure`` within quotation because what I consider pure at this point is itself a result of ``adulteration`` over decades and centuries.

But my mind is on the opposite side. I believe that a living language must evolve to absorb modern influences, otherwise it risks getting fossilised like the classical languages, such as Sanskrit and Latin. So, Urdu must evolve. However, I do not think that its evolution will be determined solely in Pakistan. The language of North India and Pakistan is increasignly determined by the popular media, films and now television, especially TV which is much more intimate a medium and brings language and culture in our living rooms. Here, unless Pakistan can effectively stop Indian TV channels from entry into Pakistani homes, they are the ones who will determine the subcontinental language of the future and they are increasingly veering towards a curious amalgam of English and Hindi with a sprinking of Punjabi, esp. in songs, while the flowery Urdu dialogues which enriched old Indian films are being used less and less, esp. on TV. And the Punjabi they use is of East Punjab where the vocabulary is dominated by Hindi words as against the Urdu words in West Punjab.

teshah #472: So your suggestion for the new national motto is: ``mullah-gardi zinda baad``

This certainly describes the situation today quite well. :-) And you have also made an addition to the urdu language (``mullah gardi``) while you were at it!! (urstruly should be happy with the expansion of the urdu language, although not perhaps with the reference to mullah gardi)

But more seriously, compare the words unity, faith, discipline with the corresponding words that have guided the US over the past two centuries: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . In Pakistan, life is cheap (worshippers are murdered in mosques in the name of ``Islam`` by ``muslims``!!); liberty is permitted only if you are among the rich and powerful - and then you have the liberty to do whatever you like; and the ``pursuit of happiness`` is sacriligeous if you are poor, but a sign of manhood if you are rich and powerful.

A motto is a guiding light for a nation - the US constitution has guided US actions for two centuries, and steadily allowed it to progress in the right direction. It is time we started having some ideals for the future in Pakistan, with the mullah gardi of today certainly having no place in that future and ``unity, faith, discipline`` being relevant only to a limited time (i.e. in the struggle for Pakistan).

Dear Harish

If you recall you claimed you will never indulge me in debate again because you had succeeded (allegedly) in achieving your objectives. You talk big and yet have nothing to show for it. The only person blabbering here is you and the realisation must kill you- you`ve wasted another day debating with me who you`ve ``taught`` a lesson so many times.

Please produce the alternative primary source that has been asked of you. Hearsay my friend was never admissible anywhere.

Here is the process:

Its not that hard- go to a library- find Rafiq Zakaria`s ``Man who divided India``... and look for the bibliography for the said statement. Once you`ve gotten the citation- look for the book and see.

But I tell you it will be a futile endeavor because this is the only statement (1940) by Jinnah which has both a type writer and a personal assistant in it. I know because I used to quote the type writer Pakistan statement all the time till I realised that it was merely a distortion.

#482 by Mantolives

[First it was creating ``defending Gandhi``, then ``creating doubts`` about Jinnah and now ``beating up on me``.]

Aww poor Yasser, are you so traumatized that you can`t understand that all of them are one and the same?

[You change your stated objectives more times than gandhi changed his dhoti.]

Going by the incoherent blabbering that you`ve been reduced to, the end result is achieved, so I don`t mind it.

Dear Harish Hyd,

``Nope, you merely produced ANOTHER statement trying to pass it off as the original claiming that Rafiq Zakaria and Ayaz Amir, two eminent writers distorted. Obviously, you did a poor con job. ``

Then why don`t you do us all a favor and produce the ``primary source`` for the statement that Rafiq Zakaria and Ayaz Amir quote. For the record I didn`t say they ``distorted`` the statement. They`ve merely reproduced hearsay and this indeed is in circulation- quoted more by Jinnah admirers than otherwise ironically. I also know that Raja of Mahmudabad did not visit Jinnah 1947 onwards- and therefore G M Sayed is mistaken.

Yes- I do know something they didn`t because I have found this statement in a primary source and K B Sayeed`s book which says:

“There are many people in Pakistan particularly among the services who tend to dismiss the contribution of the Muslim League towards the achievement of Pakistan as one of little consequence. They often quote, out of context, the statement of Jinnah …

Footnote says: This statement is from a speech made in 1940 in which Jinnah urged Muslims to strengthen the Muslim League and pointed out that it was only after Muslims were well organized that he would give them marching orders. This meant that he attached great importance to the organization of the League.

Page 176 Chapter 6 The Muslim League, its role and organization

#480 by Mantolives

[As the matter stands - I have quoted the direct statement.]

Nope, you merely produced ANOTHER statement trying to pass it off as the original claiming that Rafiq Zakaria and Ayaz Amir, two eminent writers distorted. Obviously, you did a poor con job.

[You have quoted paraphrased statements by 3 people- and none of them have quoted a primary source but simply reproduced a distortion of the original.]

It is a distortion just because you say so? Are you saying you know something that Rafiq Zakaria, Ayaz Amir, and G M Syed didn`t know?

[You are welcome to check these facts- but then that would require research which you are incapable of.]

Funny how you`re trying to pass on the buck to me. You want ``primary sources``, but you won`t provide any to those who doubt your claim. This is a clear give-away of a man who is tottering at his wit`s end.

[It seems to me that other than the abuse and insults, you have no way out of the mess you find yourself in. So my suggestion- concentrate on your job - maybe you are marginally better at that.]

My suggestion is you don`t take me on either insults or history, because you`re poor at both. And going by your debating prowess, may I humbly suggest you join law school again if you are ever to make something worthwhile of your life?