Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

PS to Harish

Yaar ofcourse its not ``fun`` to beat up on me anymore (lets assume it was ever for a minute).

Is this the latest spin ? First it was creating ``defending Gandhi``, then ``creating doubts`` about Jinnah and now ``beating up on me``.

You change your stated objectives more times than gandhi changed his dhoti.

Dear Anil sahab,

Interesting point... and agreed.. but I am afraid Mullahs have different priorities and loyalties...

Jinnah`s stature as the founder of the nation.. as well as the myths of invincibility (like the one broken here today) surrounding his life reinforced by the nation state have made the Mullahs shut up about Jinnah progressively. It must be remembered that at the time of the Munir Commission and Report, the Mullahs were still speaking against him- still describing his conception of Pakistan as ``Kufr``.

Now- the Mullah treads with caution... Jinnah is one name the Mullah grudgingly bows his head to. We had a controversey in the national assembly ... when an MMA said ``He may be Quaid-e-Azam to you but not to me`` and then referred to him as ``Apka kay Quaid-e-Azam``.. but thats about it. It was Jinnah`s portrait in a suit in the NWFP assembly that stopped the bill against banning western dress as school uniform in Peshawar. The ANP (irony) pointed to Jinnah`s picture and asked if MMA believed Jinnah was a kafir.

Personally- I think the shield needs to be reinforced by other leaders- newer leaders who say the same thing again and again. Pakistan`s problem was- as I described in my post 442- the ideological confusion of the Muslim Salariat... Jinnah`s political training was from Congress and under Hindu and Parsi leaders like Gokhale and Naoroji... therefore he did not have a second string with similar thinking. We need a second string... someone like Aitzaz Ahsan to forget what happened since and pick up from 11th September 1948 ...

Also please visit unplugged… where I have reopened the CMP discussion with Sadna…

Harish Hyd,

No one is asking you to believe anything I say. I certainly don`t have the thaika to correct ignorance- especially someone like you.

As the matter stands - I have quoted the direct statement. You have quoted paraphrased statements by 3 people- and none of them have quoted a primary source but simply reproduced a distortion of the original. G M Sayed`s deputation especially is funny, because no where between the period of the creation of Pakistan and Jinnah`s death 10 months later did Raja of Mahmudabad ever visit the man. You are welcome to check these facts- but then that would require research which you are incapable of.

It seems to me that other than the abuse and insults, you have no way out of the mess you find yourself in. So my suggestion- concentrate on your job - maybe you are marginally better at that.

#476 by Mantolives

[So your insults don`t hurt me.]

They do Yasser, they do, nothwithstanding your bold assertions, which is why you refer to them in your very next post.

[It just shows that you don`t have an argument- a usual condition for you.]

One could be forgiven for thinking that you were talking about yourself. The fact that you resorted to talking about excreta amply proves that you don`t have an argument, or you yourself aren`t convinced about the `evidence` you provided, which is why the need to reinforce it with profanities.

[Kindly don`t indulge in the regular obfuscation. Produce a primary source.]

Please let us know why should we consider you more credible than Rafiq Zakaria (RZ) or Ayaz Amir (AA)? How is the `evidence` you provided even remotely connected to the statements the two gentlemen refer to? `My entire equipment is confined to an attache case, a type writer and a personal assistant` is not nearly the same as `Which Muslim League? Pakistan has been created by me and this typewriter of mine.`. It would take a fertile imagination from someone who is obviously high on some substance to think these two are connected.

G M Syed`s deposition in court clearly says that it took place after Partition, the tense in both statements by RZ and AA make it abundantly clear so you must be incredibly dumb to ask me again to prove it.

Now as I said, I don`t want you to s(p)oil this board so please don`t bother answering, because your arguments are so weak, its not even funny anymore to beat up on you.

Re: # 477

Yasser:

Would you not agree that Jinnah`s speech as a shield will be effective only if the Mullahs have as much respect, and Jinnah still commands as much control and authority over the Mullahs, as he does on intelligentia like yourselves?

Anil Kapuria

As for hidden implication- feeblemindedness notwithstanding.. to an ordinary and sane person it is absolutely clear that Mullahs are embarrassed of Jinnah`s clear pronouncement in the Constituent Assembly.. Therefore they try and lessen Jinnah`s importance in Pakistan movement. Similarly those who wish to make Pakistan a constitutional democratic state and use Jinnah`s speeches- especially 11th August 1947- as a shield against the Mullahs- want to exaggerate his importance in the Pakistan movement and lessen the rest..

I am not sure what conjecture, implication or hidden meaning a person may extract from such a simple statement.

Dear Harish,

First of all I have not abused you or used your tactics. So your insults don`t hurt me. It just shows that you don`t have an argument- a usual condition for you. Kindly don`t indulge in the regular obfuscation. Produce a primary source.

As for your claim that the statement I have quoted does not ``Remotely`` resemble the statement quoted by Ayaz Amir or Rafiq Zakaria...

Rafiq Zakaria as quoted by you paraphrases this way: He once remarked that he got Pakistan by using just the services of his secretary and typewriter

The actual statement:

‘My entire equipment is confined to an attache case, a type writer and a personal assistant’. `

(Speeches and statements of Mr. Jinnah Vol 1 Ashraf Lahore 1960)

#474 by Mantolives

[For your benefit I quote the primary source again]

Nowhere in the ``primary source`` does it say that THIS was the original statement which was twisted to the more famous `I made Pakistan with my typewriter` comment, so how does this prove your assertion?

[Your insults notwithstanding... the statement here quotes a primary source.]

It hurts doesn`t it? Respect begets respect, so think twice before insulting someone.

[Name-dropping might be good but as I have produced below the statement in full with actual primary source, the burden is on you to produce a primary source that proves this statement was indeed made after 1947.]

``Actual primary source``? The statement you provided doesn`t even remotely resemble (except for the two words `typewriter` and `secretary/assistant`) the statement that Rafiq Zakaria and Ayaz Amir quoted. Nor does it say that this statement was twisted into that. So how does it prove your assertion?

[This is a statement ``I made Pakistan with my typewriter`` is quoted by Jinnah admirers and Pakistani secularists to shut the Mullahs up when they say ``Jinnah was only one person- Pakistan was an entire movement``.]

And somehow we are to understand this implication and hidden meanings. For someone who was a very popular leader (at least amongst Muslims) Jinnah`s life is full of implications, assumptions, conjectures, and hidden meanings? Or is it that a myth was deliberately created to give him an undeserving halo?

Dear Harish,

For your benefit I quote the primary source again:


‘My entire equipment is confined to an attache case, a type writer and a personal assistant’. `

(Speeches and statements of Mr. Jinnah Vol 1 Ashraf Lahore 1960)



K B Sayeed writes:

“There are many people in Pakistan particularly among the services who tend to dismiss the contribution of the Muslim League towards the achievement of Pakistan as one of little consequence. They often quote, out of context, the statement of Jinnah …

Footnote says: This statement is from a speech made in 1940 in which Jinnah urged Muslims to strengthen the Muslim League and pointed out that it was only after Muslims were well organized that he would give them marching orders. This meant that he attached great importance to the organization of the League.

Page 176 Chapter 6 The Muslim League, its role and organization.



Your insults notwithstanding... the statement here quotes a primary source.

Look I accept that Ayaz Amir is a great journalist and that Rafiq Zakaria, despite my disagreement with his works, is a widely read author... but they have not quoted any primary source. Ayaz Amir wrote it or Rafiq Zakaria wrote it proves that this saying has been repeated many times.

I am not going to go into a name-calling match with you... Suffice to say neither Ayaz Amir nor Rafiq Zakaria have quoted a primary source. They have repeated a claim that is often made and I have PRODUCED the actual statement which has come down to us in a distorted form. Clearly you don`t understand how this history stuff works. Name-dropping might be good but as I have produced below the statement in full with actual primary source, the burden is on you to produce a primary source that proves this statement was indeed made after 1947.

You don`t even know what you are arguing about. This is a statement ``I made Pakistan with my typewriter`` is quoted by Jinnah admirers and Pakistani secularists to shut the Mullahs up when they say ``Jinnah was only one person- Pakistan was an entire movement``.

I know because I used to quote it a lot to bolster my arguments for a Pakistan based on the 11th August 1947 speech.

-YLH

#456 by Mantolives

[The ``sources`` you`ve quoted are hearsay. K B Sayeed, an author quite critical of Jinnah otherwise, has done some extensive research on the matter and he has traced back all hearsay to the 1940 statement.]

Congratulations on taking the art of spinning to new heights! Even by Paki standards, this is the most incredibly stupid statement I`ve ever heard. Rafiq Zakaria, a renowned scholar whose writing career is longer than the number of years of your wretched existence on the Earth is basing his statement on hearsay? What next? Will you now tell us you know more than Jinnah on what he wanted? YOU dear Yasser are an unknown beyond Chowk and some obscure suburb of Lahore. Ayaz Amir and Rafiq Zakaria are household names at least in the journalistic community. Next time, please come up with a better excuse, or better still, a source to back up your half-assed assertions.

[The problem with you is that you always ``google`` your way in or out of arguments and then declare victory.]

And your problem is that the only source you have is ``Yasser Latif Hamdani``, which most Chowkies have realized is as dubious as it gets. You don`t even have a ``google`` evidence to back your wild claims, let alone a concrete one.

[It is not a question of ``ruining the board``... it is the question of defaecation which is uniquely your style.]

Why this morbid fascination with human excrement? Is it because you have problems with your daily morning ritual or has someone abused you by forcing you to partake of it?

Re: # 467

I suggest a new motto in Urdu as under: -

`Khuda ki khudai khatam, nabion ki nabuwwat khatam, insan ki insaniat khatam, mullah ki mullah-gardi zinda baad`

``Galiaan ho janrh sunjian te wich Mirza (replace it with `mullah`) yaar phire.``

Re: # 459
``Urdu should be spoken pure and it should be high-falutin`; similarly punjabi should be spoken pure and the same goes for any other tongue``
Languages(and people) actually get hurt by this kind of elitism. Urdu lit in India has suffered because of the image of Urdu as a purely urbane language.If there occured any rural phrase then this would be attributed to the ganwarness of the writer and it would be said that he has still not been able to shake off his ganwar roots. By this a section of society is precluded from the literary canon. Thats why I dont think you will find any ``dalit`` literature in Urdu.

Ref masanamuthu #367

[Actually I am thankful to the ``caste supremacist Brahmin`` harimau for coining ``masanamuthu`` as the generic low caste name..]

Actually, I don`t have to coin any names. Masanamuthu continues to remain a reasonably common name in Tamil Nadu despite the current trend towards Rajiv, Rajesh, Mahesh, Ramesh, etc., which have replaced the previously popular Tamil Selvan, Anbarasan (Love King), etc.

From my viewpoint, the name that takes the cake is Thanga Maan Kani (Golden Mango Fruit -- I kid you not, there is a guy wandering around in Tamil Nadu with such a name) but then he is the son of Thamaraik Kani (Lotus Fruit -- does a lotus actually bear any fruit?) and the brother of Inba Thamizhan (Happy Tamilian -- sort of saying Fat, Dumb and Happy).

Other names that I have used such as Sudalaikkannu, Karuppannasami, etc., remain valid names in Tamil Nadu. It is actually bogus names like Tamil Kudimagan (does this mean Tamil Citizen, Tamil Drunkard or Tamil Choot, I am yet to figure out and will be grateful for any enlightenment you can provide) that bring disrepute to Tamilians of all castes.

The young lady with thick glasses seems to be a student of Prof. Masadi.

``Arabs used to refer to all people who did not speak Arabic as Ajami meaning dumb/mute. ``(Urs)

may be -- but the term was used mostly for the people from Persia (Ajam) -- one of the sahabas Sulman Farsi or Sulman Ajami -- who was the leader of of the committee that compiled Quran after prophet `s death as we see it today -- was an Ajami from Iran who was the scholar of both Arabic and Farsi.....

mantolives #466 I agree that no individual, not even Jinnah, is such a fount of wisdom that one should follow his direction unquestionably. In this spirit, let me question our national motto: Unity, Faith, Discipline.

This motto seems more suitable for a military camp than for a free people. It sits on the hillside on the way from Islamabad airport, and never fails to send a shiver down my spine (kind of like reading Dante`s ``All Hope Abandon, Ye Who Enter Here``).

``Unity`` is a euphemism for: ``Toe the Official Line``.
``Faith`` is a bit more nebulous and could mean ``Have Faith in Allah`` or ``Have Faith in Der Boss``. It does not mean the most important faith a free people should be encouraged to have: ``Faith in Yourself, and your God-given faculties to see or think``.
``Discipline`` is good if it means dont burn buses, dont jump ticket lines, dont push aside weaker guys, and so forth. But in Pakistan, it simply means ``Atta-a-a-in-shun``.

My recommendation: we could adopt the motto of the great state of virginia: Sic Semper Tyrannis. (Thus to all tyrants). But that doesnt fit well. We need to come up with a completely new one that fits with our current ethos and aspirations as a nation. Any ideas??