Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance

To all:

Next time before you start questioning the editor and Chowk about how they should go about running this website, do take a look at how the interactors are conducting themselves. I had requested that the Gandhi topic (as a political discussion) be left out, yet most people have persisted, and these are the ones who complain the loudest. Filtering out posts has to be done manually and is a tedious process.

There will be ample opportunity to discuss Gandhi/Jinnah on some board or the other later.

And if, as someone said, Chowk does not represent the real world, then perhaps it is a bit much to expect us to deal with human frailties and foibles.

Your collective participation would be a great help. Do write to us at feedback@chowk.com to weed out posts that are irrelevant to the main discussion or abusive.

Thanks.

Look BJkumar...

Gandhiji is a revered figure for you chaps. I definitely don`t believe in all or nothing situations... like you guys do ... I accept that everyone has flaws etc. I object only to his Mahatmafication. If there hadn`t been such deliberate and dishonest demonisation of the Quaid-e-Azam by you Indians... I won`t bother bringing out these truths about Gandhi either. Still I have only proceeded on the basis of facts and sources- quite unlike the modus operandi of dishonest Indians like you.

Have a nice one.

#424 Manto

I notice you called the Mahatma Gandhi-ji!

Gandhi-JEE!!!

Its`s too late, Yasser - your REAL feelings have slipped out! You better ask Chowk staff to filter that interact!

Ah, the lawyer goofs up again!

#420 Ajeya

Most of what you say here appears innocuous enough. The last two short paragraphs need some clarification, though.

[But more of Islam will always equate to less of education and more of poverty. Worldwide. To prosper, they need less of Islam. Which is anathema to Muslims.]
Islam is a religion - what has that got to do with the level of education? (Aren`t some of the most fanatic individuals in the world - irrespective of religion - highly educated in the conventional sense?) Also, aren`t you equating all ``islam`` with fanaticism? Is everyone of the one billion Muslims a fanatic? Is every one of the 150 million or so Indian Muslims a fanatic? If not, aren`t you doing a disservice to the Indian nation by lumping the secular-outlook patriotic Indians who happened to be born Muslim with the fanatic crowd?

[It`s hard to help those that do not want to help themselves.]
I don`t see any solutions mentioned in your response. Are you giving up?

BJKumar...

It must remind you of the Hollywood Gandhi... not the real one.

The real Gandhi was the epitome of Ayn Rand`s Witchdoctor.

So how many poems or photos will you put up before you finally are ready to confront the reality of the medieval Hindu fascist that Gandhiji was?

#422 Manto

Thanks Yasser! Your persistence on the figure in question is highly touching - it reminds me a bit of Gandhi - walking all alone, leaning on a stick. Who knows, perhaps someday you may even have a horde of followers - perhaps even the author of THIS article - whose own views on the gentleman in question appear rather murky!

To inspire you further, let me quote the following Tagore song which always inspired Gandhi immensely:

Ekla Chalo
(Walk alone)

If they answer not to thy call, walk alone;
If they are afraid and cower mutely facing the wall,
Open thy mind and speak out alone.

If they turn away and desert you when crossing the wilderness,
Trample the thorns under thy tread,
And along the blood-lined track travel alone.

If they do not hold up the light when the night is troubled with storm,
With the thunder-flame of pain ignite thine own heart,
And let it burn alone.

RABINDRANATH TAGORE

Gandhi

Sir: In the series of letters titled “Gandhi” Mr Mehmood Elahi has repeated old myths that have now become the truth. It is alright to mention what Albert Einstein or Dr King said about Gandhi and it is equally well to speak of “satyagraha” and “ahimsa”, but for the purpose of discovering facts, let us consider the various criticisms of Gandhi’s life that in my opinion do away with Gandhi as a great icon of humanity.

First, Gandhi’s Satyagraha was non-violent only in name. The Non-Cooperation movement led to bloodshed because Gandhi inflamed religious passions by sidelining secular Hindu and Muslim leaders. The Moplah Uprising and Chaura Chauri incident are just two such examples.

Second, Gandhi’s struggle in South Africa was not to get Indians equality with white South Africans, but to raise Indians above the black people of the region. In his letters documented in the 90 volume collected works of Mahatma Gandhi, he described black people as savages, one degree removed from animals.

Third, Gandhi was supposedly a casteist Hindu. This is criticism levelled by Dr BR Ambedkar, the leader of the untouchables and principle author of the Indian constitution. In several of his books Dr Ambedkar reveals Gandhi as exceptionally manipulative and wishing to perpetuate the horrible caste system in Hinduism.

Fourth, Gandhi has been accused of being a misogynist and a male chauvinist. He criticised the suffrage movement and said that women should be the “Queens of the household” and therefore should not work in factories.

Fifth, Gandhi shunned modernity, especially modern medicine — his wife supposedly died as a result of his refusal of modern treatment for her.

Sixth, Gandhi vetoed the Cabinet Mission Plan — a system of safeguards the Muslim minority had agreed to.

Seventh, Gandhi has also been accused of unpleasant references to Muslims. He once supposedly declared that “Muslim rule is like a bully”. Several books expose the other side to Gandhi. Chief among them are Gandhi behind the mask of divinity, Un-Gandhian Gandhi and Gandhi nobody knew. However the best source remains the primary text i.e. The collected works of Mahatma Gandhi.
YASSER LATIF HAMDANI
Lahore

Jang...

Spin spin spin...

As a supporter of the state of Israel and an admirer of the Jewish people, I am hardly the one who would indulge in that rhetoric.

I knew jewish Americans who died in the 9/11 tragedy. God bless their souls.

Re: #412 by bjkumar

[#411 Ajeya/Ramanujan

What is YOUR solution? How does one get there? ]


As they say, ``A rising tide lifts all boats``. The gradual improvement in the Indian economy will filter down to all communities, albeit to different extents.

Therein lies salvation. If in the meantime, some/all of this future prosperity is experienced by our Islamic neighbors, maybe there will be fewer jehadis, and less of the Islamic fervor.

A lot depends on the Muslim communities themselves. Traditionally, all over India, as well as what is now Pakistan, it is the poorest sections of the community that got converted to Islam. And that trend is reflected in what we see today, with the more educated groups steadily pulling away from ones that are less educated, in spite of overall progress.

There is no magic bullet. But more of Islam will always equate to less of education and more of poverty. Worldwide.

To prosper, they need less of Islam. Which is anathema to Muslims. It`s hard to help those that do not want to help themselves.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I must admit that I have fallen behind in keeping track of what comes out in my hometown paper. (And I strenuously deny that time spent here had anything to do with it!) The following is from today`s Washington Post. (And while mentioning that newspaper, it is fair to point out that THIS web site has shown a certain amount of courage by letting those ``cartoons`` stay in place - which apparently even the Washington Post has kept its distance from.)

Bush, Blair, But Not Muhammad
At London Museum, Cartoonists Agree: Target the Powerful

By Kevin Sullivan

LONDON, Feb. 23 -- When the political cartoonist Martin Rowson draws President Bush with blood on his hands, he gets hundreds of angry and obscene e-mails. But he doesn`t mind, he said, because ``the purpose of satire is to attack people more powerful than you are.``

Still, Rowson said, he would not have drawn the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that were published by a Danish newspaper and led to often violent protests around the world. Rowson said the cartoons insulted a minority group -- ``poor and powerless Muslims in Denmark.``

Rowson and other prominent British cartoonists spoke about their craft Tuesday at London`s Cartoon Museum, which officially opened this week and is the nation`s first museum dedicated to cartooning, caricatures, comics and animation.

The museum has more than 250 original works on display and about 1,000 more in its collection, plus a library of 3,000 books, including rare first editions. It houses cartoons lampooning political leaders from Napoleon to Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Oliver Preston, a cartoonist and the museum`s chairman, said the word ``cartoon`` comes from the Italian cartone, a preliminary sketch for a fresco. The English word made its debut in 1843 in the British humor magazine Punch, which published a satirical picture about a competition to supply the new Houses of Parliament with frescoes. That picture became known as ``Cartoon No. 1.``

Earlier works were called caricatures, Preston said, including pieces at the museum by George Cruikshank, whose drawing was so influential that in 1819, he received a royal bribe of 100 pounds not to ``caricature His Majesty in an immoral situation.``

Preston said the museum`s opening date was set long before the Danish cartoons controversy exploded. The museum is intended as a showcase for artists` work, not to stir up political controversy, he said, and contains nothing like the Muhammad drawings.

Steve Bell, who, like Rowson, draws mainly for the Guardian newspaper, has been portraying Blair for nearly 15 years. He is best known for his caricatures of a maniacal Blair with enormous teeth and ears and one wild-looking eye that is much larger than the other.

In 2000, Bell drew a cartoon titled ``The End of The Affair,`` featuring a demonic-looking Blair driving a wooden stake through the heart of a green-skinned, cadaver-like former prime minister Margaret Thatcher in a casket. More recently, he drew an excited Bush having relations with a camel, which was supposed to symbolize Iraq.

But even as a believer in harsh political satire, Bell said, he would not have drawn the Danish cartoons, including one that featured Muhammad with a bomb in his turban. He defended the Danish newspaper`s right to publish the drawings, saying limitations on free speech should be ``self-imposed.``

``The limits are one`s own integrity and one`s own beliefs,`` he said. ``Sometimes you want to offend. But you target the powerful, not the weak. In Denmark, those cartoons tapped into a lot of the nasty, anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim things going on.``

Hunt Emerson is a largely non-political cartoonist whose best-known works are 30 books of comics, including a spoof of D.H. Lawrence`s ``Lady Chatterley`s Lover`` that is displayed at the museum.

Emerson said that a few years back he contributed to another satirical work titled ``Outrageous Tales from the Old Testament,`` which featured ``blood and guts`` biblical stories not normally highlighted in Sunday school classes. He said he got a few letters, ``but nobody went out burning embassies.``

Emerson also said he would not have published the Muhammad cartoons, partly because they were ``not very good`` and partly out of fear of violent reprisals. ``As a cartoonist, I have quite a few views about it,`` he said. ``But as a human being, I`m not going to put me and my family in danger. So you might say they`re winning.``

#415, #416

I must admit that the linkage to Gandhi (a role this actor did 23 years ago) is rather weak here - not to mention that to the topic at hand. But it is a good thing and I wish more people would do the same.

So the filmi Gandhi is collecting money to save pakis..... that won`t sit too well with YLH and his wife.....:))

re: Spirit of Gandhi
Gandhi may be dead but his spirit is alive
http://www.dawn.com/2006/02/24/ed.htm#1
(In support of quake victims


SIR Ben Kingsley, an Oscar winner who will always be remembered for his portrayal of Gandhi and who is currently in Pakistan working on a documentary on relief efforts in the quake-hit areas, said on Wednesday that he hoped the film would generate funds for quake survivors. Once shown on TV channels around the world, the documentary will remind people everywhere of the survivors’ continued plight as well as focus on how much more needs to be done. This is exactly the kind of initiative that is needed to ensure that the world does not forget about the devastation caused by the earthquake. Like many artistes and leaders who have toured the affected areas — from Angelina Jolie to Shabana Azmi of India — Mr Kingsley too believes that the world community should do more to help those in distress. His visit should also remind leaders at home that the overwhelming response witnessed in the immediate aftermath of the disaster has since dwindled and needs to be revived. For instance, one has not heard much about what became of the national volunteer movement since it was launched last year to help in relief operations. Making their efforts public will help encourage others to step forward in providing aid and assistance to the victims. The government can also start its own campaigns urging people to continue to help. One feels confident that other film-makers will be happy to offer their services in this regard.)
Sridhar

It is imperative that we do not forget the plight of the survivors. Reports continue to speak of the lack of basic facilities at camps and in tent villages and the many challenges the people are facing in trying to pick up the thread of normal life. Women complain of not having female doctors to attend to their needs, children do not have schools to go to, and compensation has been slow to come. The threat of an epidemic outbreak or a second natural disaster looms large. The government must make concrete efforts to address the survivors’ immediate needs so as to avoid further misery.

There are no short cuts and no point in ranting and raving. If I understand it right, every Muslim community in India small or large has autonomy over its personal law issues. Even a fisherman community in the outskirts of my hometown has the right that its own religious elders make the key pronouncements on matters of marriage, divorce and maintenance in that community.

It is virtually impossible(in my view) for the state to take away that autonomy completely without widespread grassroots activism to prepare these communities for it beforehand. Such grassroots activism has to come mostly from within the Muslim communities otherwise it will be taken as outright interference in practice of religion. Right now many Muslim womens organizations are demanding changes in the application of Muslim law from within.

Again there are no shortcuts. As mohar11 said it will only be movements which work ground upwards which will be lasting. Better economic opportunities would also help the process along, greatly, I suspect.

Re: # 410 nasah

That`s good to know..... I think those protests should have continued - it should have turned into a popular ``movement``.... sort of a ``bhudan movement``... to free muslims from the tyranny of the mullah and the vile hindu politicians.... A reformation movement to change the dynamics of muslim communities...... Things should never been allowed to settle down because people should have known that Shah Bano case was just the beginning of bad thigns would be coming down the road.....it was all too clear....

But that was then, now times are different... it`s never too late... but we don`t see no such popular movement in the horizon....we don`t see any leadership, muslim or otherwise.... All we hear is silence and tha ain`t no good.....