A Stretch of Analogy: National Deterrence to Individual Deterrence

``Is the common citizen not facing a jungle law? If this is the case, then why he is not allowed to have deterrence? It may seem to be an uncivilized suggestion but don’t we know that everyone is allowed to keep personal arms in America, avowedly the most civilized nation on this earth?``

``If guns are outlawed, then only the outlaws will have guns.``

``it’s a safe bet that India would never have dared to intervene in East Pakistan had Pakistan been nuclear at that time.``

look smarty - it was bhutto who gave an open opportunity to India to get bangladesh.

India has been altogether vicious in its aims and plans against Pakistan but couldn`t dare to step ahead lest its most-loved dharti doesn`t again slip into the hands of jawaans from the west.

And now her respected daughter who flaunts to have 2 husbands; Zardari and Nawaz Sharif..plans to break the ice by performing the same balancing acts her father did.
Her father even stooped to ink the deal to freeze the existence of Pakistan (Allah Forbid) and act like Yasser Arafat.

In the latter case..Soha Arafat too would have had 2 husbands.

Re: # 28 #28 by masadi on June 3, 2006 9:08pm PT

Dear masadi:

On the contrary, actually you have behaved like a stupid fool and a buffoon. You purposely stray almost all discussions away to the wah-wah land of your intrinsic hatred and bigotry of the west.

You have not addressed any point, because none was raised for your unintelligent mind. Your brains are just stuck in some commie`s @ss, and you know it.

Now, if you think that the Arabs are not stealing Pakistan`s assets at dirt cheap prices, that is all you have to post. Nothing more than that.

Is that clearly understood?

Respectfully submitted,

Asad Shah - I for one totally agree with every SINGLE word you have written here. This world and our society in particular is indeed a replica of Jungle and consequently, the laws applicable for survival are no different.

In #25 , <<< whose price is manipulated by the developing countries for exports, will put them in the marketplace with begging bowls >>>

Should read , <<< manipulated by the developed countries >>>>

Behram, you behave like an idiot. So far you haven`t addressed even one point I raised, you keep repeating your rants about Arabs, which are meaninglessly distractive and ignorantly simplistic. I have been quite generous in entertaining your queries thus far but your purpose is not to find the truth but to nourish your bigotry. I am not interested in that exercise. Not a single point in any of my posts have you even tried to address, not a single one.

Re: # 25 by masadi on June 3, 2006 6:45am PT

Dear masadi:

Most of your post was gibberish at best and does not address the issue at hand, and that is primarily that Pakistan is being sold to the lowest Arab bidder. Maybe you are academically stuck in your tracks, and have no concept of what all these interacts mean. You conveniently side step the main issue of culpability by referring all your Muslim brother`s shenanigans to the big Anglo brother which you call them capitalist elite. This what a bigot does. Your lack of knowledge is just amazing.

As usual, you will not identify who the real thieves are. I will not grant you the luxury of deflecting this subject to the global enterprise of crooks and enterprising thieves. Pakistan leaders always had a basket of thieves, ever since 1958.

All these years Pakistan has been borrowing and borrowing and has not made any effort to repay its loans. Nowadays due to the struggle against world peace, it appears Pakistan has devised a new scheme of selling its assets to bring money to the opponents of the enlightened world. By funnelling money to our enemies is not what the enlightened world needs.

And this is the main crux of your analysis that you are missing.

{ Unlike you I am not bigoted, I don`t condemn a particular ethnicity, }

Yes, you are bigoted. When you deflect issues to irrelevancy then you become a bigoted person. You are dishonest to your own self-proclaimed morals. When you remain silent on any injustices that happens, you are bigoted. When Arabs are screwing the world, it is alright by you. Why?

Why do create new vocabulary to hide your hatred against the west? You have continuously spread your hate on this chowkI am waiting for any simple comment that would indicate that you are an authentic person.

{Why the Arabs are buying assets of Pakistan is because no one else wants them, }

This shows how your convoluted mind works. The issue is not what the Arabs are doing. The issue is what the Pakistanis are doing. Why are the Pakistanis not allowing other than Arabs to bid on Pakistani assets?

{how much profits from those costly ventures have they thus far repatriated to the Arab lands and then to the US as they normally do? You have no clue as usual. }

Neither do you? or do you? Sitting is the west and pontificating comes natural to you, doesn`t it. Why are you tying all your thoughts to the US? You must develop the skill of concentrating on the thief, who are presently Arab Muslims. And please stay away from this constant notion that my views are biased because I am an Iranian Zoroastrian.

At least that is what most of your interacts seem to suggest.

Respectfully submitted,

#19, don`t confuse me with the author of this article, I disagree with his conclusions, see interact #3

As usual you are looking at the petty criminals and ignorning the structure, and institutions that produce conditions in which such crime is possible. Unlike you I am not bigoted, I don`t condemn a particular ethnicity, I point to a tiny elite that has taken control of the power state and harms not only the world but its own people as well. They do not recognize national sovereignity or nation states, the whole world is their killing field. Why the Arabs are buying assets of Pakistan is because no one else wants them, that is not the cause of Pakistan`s looting, how much profits from those costly ventures have they thus far repatriated to the Arab lands and then to the US as they normally do? You have no clue as usual.

The external debt of Pakistan is held in the very large part, by Non-Arab institutions. Further south-south FDI is around a third of, i.e. much less than north-south FDI. It is not very hard to look at this data, the World Bank`s world development report 2006 is available online. Further the $30billion figure you are touting is not going to flow in, in one year, it will probably be over several years. The FDI figures for Pakistan at around $3bn a year was a new record this year, it was $2.2bn last year and the years before 2004, less than $1bn. It wont jump to $30 billion in one year just because some Arabs say they will invest that much in Pakistan. The condition that developing countries find themselves in is not because of what countries in the south do. It is because of the rich industrialized countries, their domination of trade and their barbaric lending practices that result in a net outflow of capital from developing countries. You don`t seem to accept the fact that elites in the South are totally subordinate to Northern elites, and play by thier rules in the global economy. I am against all neo-liberalization, and for maximum protection for developing countries so that they develop an industrial base, demilitarization, and maximum social services for public development. Together they can do it, divided up and selling their assets to pay their bills because they spend too much on imports and have primary products, whose price is manipulated by the developing countries for exports, will put them in the marketplace with begging bowls that further entrap them, as beggars will never be choosers. You want to look at a small aspect of a small part of that global setup and link it with the ethnicity you hate. That is nonsense as methodology and devoid of facts, you don`t know where to place the blame, the petty theives or the ones that have setup a network for these theives to operate in.

Dear masadi:

You ask {So what`s your point? Nothing as usual, only BS.}

I only wanted you to acknowledge that in modern times, it is the Arabs who are buying Pakistani assets at dirt cheap prices. My point is that when the Arabs effectively become Pakistan`s owners then Pakistanis are effectively serving their new masters, i.e. the Arabs. As usual, using your bigoted anti-west mindset, you are trying to deflect the issue to the global owner`s of capitalism. The soldier in an army is effected under the direct command of his sargent. This sargent can make this soldier`s life miserable. In Pakistan`s case, they are relegating their duty to the Arabs.

I am quite astonished that you are unable to place the fault where the fault is. In an enlightened world, the thief who commits the crime is held accountable, and not some tribe that he belongs to. In the present discussion Arabs are the buyers of Pakistani assets, and then it becomes your moral duty to accept this with honesty and dignity. Unfortunately, you are unabble to have a clear vision.

If for some strange reason, investors from Namibia show up and bought Pakistani assets, then one would assert that Namibian`s are buying Pakistani assets. It is that clear and that simple. And if lots of Namibians are buying lots of Pakistani assets on dirt cheap prices, then clear minded individuals like myself would assert that Namibians are robbing Pakistan. Then, Pakistanis would have lots of street demonstration against Namibians.

Now that these investors are Arabs, why are Pakistanis not feeling robbed? Are they feeling some sense of a relief, that at least these robbers are their muslim brother?

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< Why are you so blind when an arab screws your nation >>>

I am not blind, you haven`t dealt with one point that I have posted so far. I am not concerned with the ethnicity of the person doing the screwing, the causes of this system of screwing that is in place is not arab in origin neither is it controlled by the Arabs, nor do they ensure that Pakistan`s exports remains tied to primary products, and its assets sold due to privatization to those that are close to a corrupt government totally subordinate to the Americans. The institutions that ensure this, not only for Pakistan but for the developing countries as a whole are not Arab institutions. The Arab elite are totally subordinate to the American elite, their own countries are being plundered. All you want to do based on half baked, misunderstood and confused arguments is distraction and satisfaction of your bigotry against the Arabs. The Arab elite do not share in the social profile of the Arab masses, they are closer in this profile, regardless of ethnicity, to the US elite, whose small time clients they are. So what`s your point? Nothing as usual, only BS.

behram writes <<< So 4% of Pakistan`s GDP of $120B economy is approximately equal to $4.8B, which amounts to 22% of Pakistan`s exports of approximately $21.8B. With Arabs investing $30B in the remaining Pakistan`s economy, would you consider Pakistan owning only 70% of its economy? Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of its economy or approximately $50B. Heck, with only $20B money left for 160 million people, how can Pakistan expect to remain a sovereign nation? >>>>

I would like to know which darul uloom you went to to learn your economic analysis. You are thoroughly confused between inflows and outflows, debt and foreign investment. Pakistan is not a sovereign nation, if it were than fighting the war on terror wouldnt be its priority. None of the developing nations are sovereign nations The looting is done by the WTO, the WB and the IMF when they set terms of trade, structural adjustment, cutting social servies, making the plunder easier for global capital in which the Arab elite are not the major players, neither do they hold most of this debt nor do they set terms of trade for pakistan or how it is to operate, your western friends do that, the Arab elite serve as their clients.

Ok masadi: This is what our favorite paper says

---

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 06 03 story_3-6-2006_pg5_1
Remittances contribute 4% to Pakistan GDP

ISLAMABAD: An IMF research paper has revealed that workers’ remittances contribute 4% to the GDP of Pakistan and are equivalent to about 22 percent of annual exports of goods and services.
.......
........During the period 2000-04, workers’ remittances amounted to about 3.5 percent of GDP in Egypt, 20 percent in Jordan, eight percent in Morocco, four percent in Pakistan, and five percent in Tunisia. These inflows compare to a trade deficit of about 7.5 percent of GDP in Egypt, 24 percent in Jordan, 10 percent in Morocco, 1.5 percent in Pakistan, and 10 percent in Tunisia. Moreover, remittance flows to these countries have been larger than foreign direct investment flows.

The paper suggests that a sudden drop or reversal of remittance flows to the countries we consider is unlikely in a foreseeable future, as many of those who are receiving this assistance are likely to continue to depend on it in the coming years. Therefore, remittances are likely to continue to be an important element mitigating the external vulnerabilities of the countries considered.

---

So 4% of Pakistan`s GDP of $120B economy is approximately equal to $4.8B, which amounts to 22% of Pakistan`s exports of approximately $21.8B. With Arabs investing $30B in the remaining Pakistan`s economy, would you consider Pakistan owning only 70% of its economy? Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of its economy or approximately $50B. Heck, with only $20B money left for 160 million people, how can Pakistan expect to remain a sovereign nation?

And you would still gripe that westerner`s are robbing Pakistan.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: #17 by masadi on June 2, 2006 6:31am PT

Dear masadi:

{I don`t see the point.} I understand your dilema. Like some in Pakistan, it would really take an effort on your part to learn what is actually happening in Pakistan.

If Arabs are buying all the assets in Pakistan, and future Punjabi slaves are sent to the middle east, then peopl like you will not scream foul, because their is a bigger ``cat`` in the jungle. Right? That has always been your theory, has it not?

And then as usual nonsense, use the wepons of mass deflection and have anti-west rhetoric slogans amongst Pakistanis.

{Do your research,} No sir, it is you who has to be enlightened. Day in and day out, your anti-west rhetoric is just neuseating. Why are you so blind when an arab screws your nation.

O! but you are a non-believer in nation states. Isn`t that correct?

{ and if you come up with something that supports your hypothesis that the Arabs are looting Pakistan and not the institutions like the IMF/WB who hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt, let us in on the info.}

Arabs are going to invest $30B in Pakistan. What are they buying? Assets and rights to future slaves? And you keep quite. How sad?

{Until then, all your rants are mere distraction from real issues} What real issues? You have no idea what real issues are. You are a master of deflection. I have just caught you on your shenanigans. Pakistan is being looted by none other than the Arabs, but you are blind to it.

Talk about some huge money laudering scheme that is going on between Pakistani government and Arabs. No wonder we have to continue this fight with the darker forces of humanity and get rid of slavery in Pakistan.

{ and I do not want to argue meaninglessly on anything. } O! yeah.

Masadi, I just want you to be morally strong and be honest to yourself.

---

Re:#18 by pakfin on June 2, 2006 9:51am PT

Dear Pakfin:

Yes that is correct, when you suggest

{There is a big difference between ``buying`` and ``stealing``. If a product is up for sale and gets a willing buyer then it is not robbery, no matter who te buyer is. }

{As far as ``sweet`` deals are concerned, in most cases there is a local partner involved in the deal with the foreign company.}

With transperency, we would not have this discussion. Was Iran invited in any of these asset bidding?

Or was any other non-arab bidders invited? If not, then why not?

Just think about how modern day robber-barrons are gathered.

Respectfully submitted,

By the way are you my old friend Asad from Adamjee Science College?

There is a big difference between ``buying`` and ``stealing``. If a product is up for sale and gets a willing buyer then it is not robbery, no matter who te buyer is.

As far as ``sweet`` deals are concerned, in most cases there is a local partner involved in the deal with the foreign company.

behram writes

<<< Please continue the dialogue. >>>

I don`t see the point. Do your research, and if you come up with something that supports your hypothesis that the Arabs are looting Pakistan and not the institutions like the IMF/WB who hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt, let us in on the info. Until then, all your rants are mere distraction from real issues and I do not want to argue meaninglessly on anything.

Re: # 15 by masadi on June 1, 2006 8:46pm PT

Dear masadi:

{Behram is thoroughly confused about what he is alleging.}

No masadi, I am not confused at all, and I am not alleging anything. I have a very focused thinking regarding who are the new owners of all the Pakistani assets. Why is Pakistan not publishing the names of the owners of Pakistani assets? It is just a simple question, but there are people like you, who use weapons of mass deflection in articulating a totally different subject.

Once again, quit using your double speak, and be honest about your values. You must be bound by your morals. Are you not?

{Privatization was not forced on Pakistan by the Arabs.}

Who forced what on whom is not the discussion. The robbers of Pakistan are selling Pakistani assets in broad daylight and the modern day thieves are the Arabs. Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that? or refute that?

{ The consortium of IMF, WB, ADB are the ones that hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt and they are the ones that force privatization and selling of assets, as part of their structural adjustment. }

Is this how Pakistanis practice? Sell their assets to the lowest bidder? and that also to the Arabs. Wasn`t selling Pakistani women enough to the Shaikhs of the middle east?

{He wants me to support privatization when the American corporations due the plunder and condemn it when a Saudi holding company, that has as its parterns GM, Shell and Pepsico buys KESC, that is not going to happen.}

Of course that is not going to happen, because you can not come up with any other new authentic jibberish story that you continuously promote on these boards.

{I am against all privatization where workers are laid off and profits drained from the host country, where profit is of greater consequence than needs of people.}

And I have never once suggested that Pakistani privatization is the issue. Who are the owners of Pakistani assets? And why are the Arabs buying Pakistan?

Just remain focused.

{ I am not concerned about the ethnicity of the persons doing the plundering.}

And I am. Pakistanis must be enlightened that the Arabs are screwing Pakistan and stealing the national assets at throw away prices. Pretty soon, the Punjabis slaves would be working in all those middle east areas.

{Like his rant against the corporations while supporting the US political establishment that is tucked away in the pockets of the corporate elite, his rant against the Arabs is similar BS.}

No, masadi. My rants are not BS at all. I am and will continue to expose thosw who are robbing Pakistan?

Please continue the dialogue.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram is thoroughly confused about what he is alleging. Privatization was not forced on Pakistan by the Arabs. The consortium of IMF, WB, ADB are the ones that hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt and they are the ones that force privatization and selling of assets, as part of their structural adjustment. The Arab elite, fully subordinate to the US elite are a tiny part of this global capitalist endeavour of looting third world countries, indeed they are looting their own countries much more than any looting of Pakistan by them, just look at the percent of GDP the Saudi`s spend on defense, year in and year out.

He wants me to support privatization when the American corporations due the plunder and condemn it when a Saudi holding company, that has as its parterns GM, Shell and Pepsico buys KESC, that is not going to happen. I am against all privatization where workers are laid off and profits drained from the host country, where profit is of greater consequence than needs of people. I am not concerned about the ethnicity of the persons doing the plundering. Like his rant against the corporations while supporting the US political establishment that is tucked away in the pockets of the corporate elite, his rant against the Arabs is similar BS.

behram1 #10

`` On the onset, let me pre-empt your theory and acknowledge that I do have an axe to grind against the Arabs. So?

Now, the main issue is still left on the table. Who is stealing Pakistan`s assets? Not the world` asset or any other country`s assets, but Pakistan`s assets. So, please remain focused and articulate your views on this subject only. ``

Behram has a point. Were Pakistanis given the chance to bid on the sale of those assets ? Do I get the feeling that the sale of these assets to Saudi/UAE entities have something to do with Shaukat Aziz being the Vice President of Private Banking for Citicorp ? To be fair to Pakistanis Indian businessmen do not get sweet heart deals offered to some MNCs. I would like the electricity contract Enron got on the Dhabol plant. I will be rich !!!

`` Not really. My posts for the past several days has been that Pakistan has 43% of its GDP tied up in Foreign Loans. Who has bought all these assets? Why have they not published names of the actual owners of those properties that has been sold inside Pakistan? Heck, when something is sold in the US, almost everyone gets to know who has bought what. ``

Foreign loans can be given to Pakistani state, Pakistani state owned companies and private Pakistani companies. A lot has been researched on indebtedness of Third World states. Not much work has been done on foreign loans borrowed by private companies. A lot of South East Asian businessmen were hit hard by 1998 East Asian crisis. It is a nice area for research. The Pakistani state has only $35 billion in debt. The remaining debt has to belong to private entities or state owned companies.

`` {Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation}

In effect you are accepting the premise that Arabs are players...small or large is irrelevant in this discussion. ``

I would not single out Arabs. But Gulf Arabs are huge players in the global capital markets. A lot of Arab wealth was used to purchase shares when the Dow was 1000.

Re:#11 by masadi on May 31, 2006 11:35pm PT

Dear masadi:

There you go, once again, not placing the blame where the actual blame should be placed. You have no idea (neither do I) who has bought all these assets of Pakistan. Frankly, I was identifying the robbery of Pakistan in broad daylight. Pakistan is a country whose 43% of the GDP is tied up with foreign loans comes out glaring in The Economist (actually, it is one of the highest of any country in that list).

{Behram: why your arguments are so prepostrous is because you let your bigotry guide your claims.}

Let me challenge you to the max to open your mind. Arabs are robbing Pakistan and you must be given an opportunity to see it. Whether, the bigger picture is different is quite irrelevant at the moment. You will not be allowed to deflect this moment and this thought and this opinion.

{I already answered your allegation regarding Pakistan`s external debt.}

No, you have not, and you never do.

{I know that the majority of it is held by non-Arab institutions.}

Majority of what is held by non-Arab institutions? My question has been about the buyers of these latest assets of Pakistan? Why are Pakistani leadership constantly in the middle east? And why are the middle eastern Arabs constantly in Pakistan?

If this is not the huge money-laundering scheme by the Arabs, then what is?

{Now, if you want me to do your homework by spending time researching an exact breakdown, that is not my concern, }

Well, you should make it your concern, if you have a desire to be authentic in your comments. You have a moral duty towards me to be honest and answer only what is correct. When you answer in a convoluted way then it just shows that you are not honest.

All you had to do is refute that no Arab money is found in these assets. But, you have compared two types of robbery... one, those of Arab money, which might be small; with the huge IMF and WB robbery.

{neither do I view the case of Pakistan in isolation to the rest of the developing world, in which the Arabs are a victim not the cause. }

So now you are justifying the theivery of the Arabs of Pakistani assets. O! how impressive that thought is. This poor highway robber is raping a third world country, because there is a bigger and bolder rapist around the corner.

Two wrongs does not make a right. Or does it?

My dear masadi, a thief is still a thief, and Arabs are buying Pakistani assets in dirt cheap prices.

---

Re#12 by sanjay on May 31, 2006 11:58pm PT

Dear Sanjay:

{Though I am not very sure on the subject, but just give a thought whether the Arab Money pouring in Pakistan is really ``Arab`` money or its Pakistani Black Money coming into the country via Arabia as white money.

My suspicion is it is Pakistani Money and not Arab Money. But just try to find out and comment. }

You are probably right. However, I constantly do see an Arab face to these asset buyers.

Frankly, I just want to see which entity is buying up these assets, and expose them to whoever cares. It just behoves an enlightened mind how some people would use weapons of mass deflection to deflect the actual buyers names and identities.

Just see the enormous robbery that is happening in broad daylight. Pakistan is suppossedly getting 43% of its loan amount from IMF and WB (all these years of unpaid debt). Yet, when it sells its assets the new buyers are Arabs. So who and/or what is going to repay Pakistan`s debt?

And this probably has been going on for all these 60 years of Pakistan`s existence. I am just amazed at the press in Pakistan in not exposing all what is happening in the financial world of Pakistan.

Why?

Respectfully submitted,

BEHRAM1

Though I am not very sure on the subject, but just give a thought whether the Arab Money pouring in Pakistan is really ``Arab`` money or its Pakistani Black Money coming into the country via Arabia as white money.

My suspicion is it is Pakistani Money and not Arab Money. But just try to find out and comment.

Behram: why your arguments are so prepostrous is because you let your bigotry guide your claims. I already answered your allegation regarding Pakistan`s external debt. I know that the majority of it is held by non-Arab institutions. Now, if you want me to do your homework by spending time researching an exact breakdown, that is not my concern, neither do I view the case of Pakistan in isolation to the rest of the developing world, in which the Arabs are a victim not the cause.

Re: # 8 by masadi on May 31, 2006 8:45pm PT

Dear masadi:

On the onset, let me pre-empt your theory and acknowledge that I do have an axe to grind against the Arabs. So?

Now, the main issue is still left on the table. Who is stealing Pakistan`s assets? Not the world` asset or any other country`s assets, but Pakistan`s assets. So, please remain focused and articulate your views on this subject only.

{Your initial post referred to external debt and interest payment, not purchase of assets. }

Not really. My posts for the past several days has been that Pakistan has 43% of its GDP tied up in Foreign Loans. Who has bought all these assets? Why have they not published names of the actual owners of those properties that has been sold inside Pakistan? Heck, when something is sold in the US, almost everyone gets to know who has bought what.

{The mass deflection is on your part. } No, masadi, you are an expert in this theory of mass deflection, and you know that. And, you do not have a dime`s worth of authenticity when you resort to such tactics.

{Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation}

In effect you are accepting the premise that Arabs are players...small or large is irrelevant in this discussion.

{ forced upon third world nations by structural adjustment and blaming them for the sum total of the looting of Pakistan, when their own nations are neatly tucked away in America`s pockets, shows hypocrisy and bigotry.}

And here is where I accuse you of double speak. Do you get that?

Maybe, eh!

Repsectfully submitted,

Re:#7 by bbabu on May 31, 2006 7:55pm PT

Thank you for the response.

The Economist mentions that Pakistan`s Foreign Debt is 43% of the GDP. PM Shaukat Aziz stated that Pakistan has a $120B economy. So, in my estimation Pakistan`s Total Debt should be around $50B.

In any case, I would take your number {Pakistan`s total debt is $35 billion - some of it is at low interest. } of $35B, with very low interest payment (usually interest on these loans are around less than 1%)

{I doubt Pakistanis are paying $35 billion in interest and principal payments.} Agreed, these are just outstanding loans on Pakistan, which they have to payoff someday. But as is normal with countries like Pakistan, it is left for future generations to worry about the loans (or theivery) of previous leadership.

{I doubt Pakistan is paying 4-5 billion dollars now. } Agreed. Still more loan remaining for future generation.

{Importing 100+ million barrels of petroluem should cost $7 billion. That is money that is flowing into coffers of Arab states. Profit repatriation on lot of the Arab owned businesses in Pakistan should be a few billion at best. } Agreed.

You mention Profit, which is a totally different variable than ownership.

But the actual asset that has been sold is still owned by the Arabs which is on the ground in Pakistan.

As long people understand that assets of Pakistan is stolen by the Arabs, and not by some western world country. Yes, some loan money might have been extended by IMF and WB. But, most of the gripes that emanate from the anti-western lobby is that Pakistan is being robbed by the west. Actually, it is the Pakistani leadership that have constantly robbed the country of its national assets and have their favorite whipping case against the west.

We must be honest and identify who the thieves of Pakistan has always been. Recently, it has been the barrons of oil, and those are the Arabs.

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< Here you go with your weapons of mass deflection tactics. Let us just complete one thought at a time and then maybe it will dawn on you how the Arabs are robbing Pakistan. >>>

Your initial post referred to external debt and interest payment, not purchase of assets. The mass deflection is on your part. Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation forced upon third world nations by structural adjustment and blaming them for the sum total of the looting of Pakistan, when their own nations are neatly tucked away in America`s pockets, shows hypocrisy and bigotry. You have an axe to grind against the Arabs and no concern for Pakistan.

behram1 #4

`` It is clearly understood by the people of Pakistan, that the Arabs are looting the national assets of Pakistan at dirt cheap prices. No wonder Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of the GDP. As we were told Pakistan has a $120B economy, and by taking away $50B for payments to foreigner`s debt, Pakistan is left with $70B economy with 160 million people.

What should we assume the actual productivity of these people?

Respectfully submitted, ``

Pakistan`s total debt is $35 billion - some of it is at low interest. I doubt Pakistanis are paying $35 billion in interest and principal payments. I doubt Pakistan is paying 4-5 billion dollars now. Importing 100+ million barrels of petroluem should cost $7 billion. That is money that is flowing into coffers of Arab states. Profit repatriation on lot of the Arab owned businesses in Pakistan should be a few billion at best.

Re: #5 by masadi on May 31, 2006 8:41am PT

{Care to specify how the Arabs are responsible for this looting}

Sure, it will be my pleasure to expose the sell out of Pakistan`s assets to the Arabs. As far as I know, the Telecom Industry has been bought out by a consortium from UAE. Also, KESC was bought by a private company from the middle east. Also, we have found out from other boards that a private equity firm from the middle east is expected to invest $1B in Pakistan`s infrastructure. Others have explained how these private equity firms operate.

Do you also need further clarification? If so, then please post all the selling of assets that has happened in the last 10 years and find out for yourself, who the buyers are.


Here you go with your double speak, when you write

{The Arabs are neatly tucked away in the dirty sections of America`s pockets, so I do not understand how you are trying to absolve their robbery by invoking the Arabs. }

In effect are you, then, accepting that the Arabs are buying Pakistan`s assets?


{The debt chokehold has been placed by the developed countries on the developing world, it is not only Pakistan`s problem, or a problem caused by Arabs. It is a neo-colonial mechanism of polite robbery and little else, as usualy the US elite are in the driving seat. }

Here you go with your weapons of mass deflection tactics. Let us just complete one thought at a time and then maybe it will dawn on you how the Arabs are robbing Pakistan.

Respectfully submitted,

Care to specify how the Arabs are responsible for this looting when neither the IMF nor the WB of the ADB are Arab institutions which hold most of Pakistan`s debt, and the spending that results in this debt is not flowing to the Arab countries as pertroleum products are a fraction of Pakistan`s total imports? The Arabs are neatly tucked away in the dirty sections of America`s pockets, so I do not understand how you are trying to absolve their robbery by invoking the Arabs.

The debt chokehold has been placed by the developed countries on the developing world, it is not only Pakistan`s problem, or a problem caused by Arabs. It is a neo-colonial mechanism of polite robbery and little else, as usualy the US elite are in the driving seat.

Re: # 3 by masadi on May 31, 2006 2:34am PT

Dear masadi:

{.... its military helps the higher barbarians in the US loot the country, ...}

It is clearly understood by the people of Pakistan, that the Arabs are looting the national assets of Pakistan at dirt cheap prices. No wonder Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of the GDP. As we were told Pakistan has a $120B economy, and by taking away $50B for payments to foreigner`s debt, Pakistan is left with $70B economy with 160 million people.

What should we assume the actual productivity of these people?

Respectfully submitted,

The author writes <<< So what made Pakistan go nuclear was a fear of survival in an unjust world where jungle rule prevails and flourishes, day by day. There is no escape from aggression unless retaliatory means of balking enemy attack are available >>>

The ``jungle`` exists within Pakistan which threatens the survival of its masses a lot more than any external foe. That is what needs to be taken care of instead of distracting the public by using external foes while the corrupt so-called ``protectors`` of Pakistan, its military helps the higher barbarians in the US loot the country, while keeping it locked in complete subservience to the US. The Pak Army has done more to harm Pakistan than the Indian military. If I was an indian military strategist and wanted to harm Pakistan, I would divert some of the Indian military budget towards bolstering the Pak Army, it will see the end of Pakistan soon. The people of Pakistan need to wake up and understand these shenanigans of this military of which the nuclear issue is the crest.

The authors arguments about crime, deterrence are quite simplistic. Judging from crime rates, and other indicators which some of my articles touch on, the US not a ``civilized`` country, it has the higest rate of incarceration in the world, and the highest levels of gun deaths of any developed country per 100,000 population. The levels of gun ownership are directly related to gun deaths, and murder rates but not to deterrence. Over 80 people die everyday due to gun related causes of which over 50% are suicides in this `civilized` land.

``While East Pakistan’s secession is primarily an outcome of West Pakistan chauvinism, it’s a safe bet that India would never have dared to intervene in East Pakistan had Pakistan been nuclear at that time.``

If India trained the Mukti Bahini and provided them with heavy artillery, anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft weapons and anti-ship weapons what would Pakistan do ? Pakistani nukes would not help a bit.