The Modernity Conspiracy

``he uniform message that legitimizes capitalism as the only way, that presents people`s problems as being caused by personal and not social reasons, a censorship that aviods giving equal legitimacy to alternative systems and a system that presents the US as a pargon of freedom when none exists.``

Same old logic.......tell me why overwhelming Pakistanis believe that OBL is not the ``root cause
`` of 9/11? Tell me why Paksitanis believe that they are the ``light of the ummah``? Tell me why many muslims have been made to believe that US is the ``evil empire``? Tell me why YOU believe that religious books are ``incredible`` source of TRUTHS?

THe same old NAZI political propaganda is being spread by you and many others in the name of some ``TRUTH``.

and the only way to counter is through counter-propaganda..................

Ballukhan writes <<< now, tell us now WHAT ``uniform`` message is being propagated............tell us now in plain english Dear Prophet what ``censorship`` is being done and BY WHOM ......give us NAMES and not imaginary DRAGONS out of your imagination............. stop acting as if there is a mysterious power that is guiding the western world which you are trying to communicate to us...... >>>

The uniform message that legitimizes capitalism as the only way, that presents people`s problems as being caused by personal and not social reasons, a censorship that aviods giving equal legitimacy to alternative systems and a system that presents the US as a pargon of freedom when none exists. There is no demon, the media puts out content, you just have to analyze and classify it and you can see the uniformity of the product. How come the US public, before the Iraq war came to believe that Saddam had a hand in 9/11? Or how come only those countries and thier leaders become famous in the US that are marked by the US elite, or the massive advertising industry effectively contours people`s lifestyle and aspirations driving vague tendencies into specific directions, there is a whole collection of social research on this. You mean to tell me that the world according to the media a sub microscopic part of the real world, out of the millions of events happening every day they pick a few here n there, is the actual real world? Just because you are ignorant of it does not mean its a ``dragon`` that I see in my ailing mind.

Re: # 117

Only if the humans USED the machines with compassion..............the world would have been a fantastic place to live..................the fault lies with the humans and not the machines......................

Saima Shah

An excellent article. But all this was expressed in such an intuitive mode of expression called poetry by a pre-modern Urdu poet Allama Iqbal in one of his couplets below:

He dil ke lie mout mashinon ki hakumat
Ehsaase murawwat ko kuchal dete hein alaat

(The dominance by machines is the death of the heart as the tools crush the feelings of human compassion?)

``Now if that is too far beyond your comprehension, may I politely ask you to take your snake charming, rain dancing, magic bean selling posts to another thread. ``

Masadi saheb.........now you can take your dukaan some where else.....at least I do not intend buying your ``true`` Islamic social order.......

`` They are the ``higher mullahs``, the ones who have dominated all media, ....while your petty village mullah who was reaching a hundred or two with his nonsense in the past, now reaches maybe 50. The mullah hasn`t lost much, he is still employed by this media when he can be used but those damn fools you are promoting have gained a whole world to propagandize. ...........What new ideas? hypocrisy garbed as democracy and freedom,......whose message is uniform and whose ``censorship`` though polite and invisible barriers (which you are too dumb to understand) ensures near uniformity of output......Study the modern media and its product and only after that can you bring your `magic bean` salesmanship to the table.``

Stop pretending as if you know some great secret which only you understand.........Come on now, tell us now WHAT ``uniform`` message is being propagated............tell us now in plain english Dear Prophet what ``censorship`` is being done and BY WHOM ......give us NAMES and not imaginary DRAGONS out of your imagination............. stop acting as if there is a mysterious power that is guiding the western world which you are trying to communicate to us......

``You are ignorant of the fact that in a village gemeinschaft, community individual consciousness and the collective conscience are quite similar and quite narrow so chances for ``freedom`` and resulting individuality much greater, there is less standardization of the kind that exists today in lifestyle: ``

I am glad that my farmer fore fathers moved out of their stupid village and out of their lowly Chattel life. You obviously belong to the feudal land lord Khandaan now pining for the ``12 khoon maaf`` social order, an unjust order where every virgin girl of some beauty is unflowered by the Lord`s graced organs.........an order which still exists in large parts of Pakistan . This is not stupid romanticism but sheer obscenity that is being sold by you in the garb of a romantic village life where every one ``enjoys`` pressing the feet of the landlord. What ``Standardization`` are you talking about...your village and tribal society was the most standardized and obscene of all the social order..............

`` every aspect of your life, from birth to death is being colonized and circumscribed. ``

GAAWD what nonsense you have lifted from the critical theorists........ the old order was the worst form of slavery and compared to my fore fathers slavery and because of the western education and it`s beautiful institutions I have the economic as well as the social freedom to chose whether I want to be a musician or a painter, I can go for river rafting, or mountain climbing whenever I want to..I do things which my fore fathers could never do sitting at the feet of your fore fathers...............and you want to sell me the slavery again?

``You see the stick of the mullah but don`t see the maze constructed by the city elite that circumscribes every aspect of life ``

My man you need to se a shrink.because millions of people DO NOT SEE those monsters that you see. YOU suffer from a terrible ALIENATION from your surroundings...........you are living a duplicate life where you see monsters and robots out to dominate you...........YOU need a shrink man!! Go and get one before you start killing yourself and others with your hate......................

``Islam offers a more just a more moral and equity based setup of the institutions where people and not the elite are given importance``

Can you dear sir tell us WHICH Islam are you talking about as it is practised in different parts of the world..............or is it an imaginary land of honey and milk that is being offered while day dreaming..............tell us dear Sir which great social order are you talking about that is being offered in the name of ``true`` Islam??

``No, I rant and rave ......because ``real`` life has become so detached and drab and routine, in other words standardized beyond reason to the detriment of human development. We are not robots but the elite have converted us ``

My man I love the ``freedom`` I have compared to my forefathers. I would probably be licking the feet of Wadheras like you if not for the great Industrial revolution in India. I am glad that the landlords and their mullahs are decimated in India.....unfortunately Pakistan is yet to get out of this feudal mess..... .and you remain the last apologist for that social order.

``And idiot, don`t try to attack Islam, if you have read the book, the Quran``

I pity your claim to scholarship.....go ahead and call me names..... .When nothing works then mullahs like you can claim the right to issue fatwas and threats of apostasy............

masadi various posts:

yawn!!

In #112 ``uncaring and unselfish`` should read ``uncaring and selfish``

#110 ballukhan, I told you to take your snake charming, your rain-dance mantra, to some other thread. Why do you keep posting this BS here?

ballukhan: << You hate these technologies because the ummah is now open to new ideas of democracy, secularism and freedom from propaganda unleashed by mullahs like you......Becasue of this technology you also lose the inherent power to punish, censor and inflict violence over those who spread ideas that challenge your claim to the ``TRUTHS`` . >>>

Once again you talk like an infantile ignoramus who lives in the cocoon of his happy-world of flying cows and dancing pigs, fiction similar to that described by the powerful elite through media domination. They are the ``higher mullahs``, the ones who have dominated all media, concentrated it to ensure that their voice, backed by all the wealth that they possess, gets to the hundreds of millions and billions while your petty village mullah who was reaching a hundred or two with his nonsense in the past, now reaches maybe 50. The mullah hasn`t lost much, he is still employed by this media when he can be used but those damn fools you are promoting have gained a whole world to propagandize.

What new ideas? hypocrisy garbed as democracy and freedom, messages that commercialize every human emotion, that objectify all human relations? That bombard you with images and dreams that neither describe your life nor you will ever attain? Your tiny voices, high on this ``new freedom`` reaching 50 here 100 there are immaterial to those that dominate this new technology and the mass media whose reach is across the globe, whose message is uniform and whose ``censorship`` though polite and invisible barriers (which you are too dumb to understand) ensures near uniformity of output. Study the modern media and its product and only after that can you bring your `magic bean` salesmanship to the table.

ballukhan: <<< .................the villagers CHOSE cities to the supposedly ``paradise`` that the mullahs were offering..........just as the villagers rejected their lowly life in the so called village paradise as slaves to the mullahs..... >>>

Once again your response is that of an illiterate damn fool. Once the structure of the economy changed due to industrial capitalism, the villagers were ``forced`` through forces greater than their personal choice to move to the cities in order to survive and then we see the change in the family structure and the alteration of a community based society to one that is more dependency, need or use based.

You are ignorant of the fact that in a village gemeinschaft, community individual consciousness and the collective conscience are quite similar and quite narrow so chances for ``freedom`` and resulting individuality much greater, there is less standardization of the kind that exists today in lifestyle: the move to the city overwhelms all aspects of life by rules thereby restricting this level of freedom to develop. Just because there is no clear ``collective conscience`` you think you are free, even as every aspect of your life, from birth to death is being colonized and circumscribed. You see the stick of the mullah but don`t see the maze constructed by the city elite that circumscribes every aspect of life taking away all certainty from people, leaving them unsure, anxious, blasé and uncaring and unselfish, a maze that is more restricting than anything the mullah can come up with even in his wildest imagination.

ballukhan: <<< Tell me Mr. know-it-all........was SLAVERY of the middle ages a ``virtous`` social structure............is ``theocracy`` a virtuous social structure?...........is the Shariat bound society an example of ``virtous`` social structure????....tell me what Utopia do you have to offer where people live in a land of honey and milk? >>>

Do you know what a social structure is? Read my article on slavery, the slavery that exists today, globe over, polite though complete, is much worse than any chattel slavery of the past given its scope. A social structure represents the interrelationship between institutions of a society, nowadays the economic, political and military are dominant and we see the effects in the form of a permanent war economy in the US, the family and religion are subordinate, the family is crumbling and religion has become a dependent reactionary force being used by the economic and the military for its purposes. As this setup dominates the third world culturally, you`ll see similar effects.

Islam offers a more just a more moral and equity based setup of the institutions where people and not the elite are given importance. Yes it would be a much better setup and we can attain a much better and equitable distribution of wealth. Leave alone Islam, any system that has any semblance of reason can be better than this nonsense and the madness perpetuated by the American elite and their system. Look at the haphazard patterns of development/underdevelopment it has created the world over, regardless of people`s religion or lifestyles, generating forces that ensure that setup regardless of the mullah, and you can see how miserable this system is.

ballukhan: <<< ....... You rant and rave against technology because now it is difficult for you to hold claims towards special status that you tried as a Prophet of the ``TRUTH``............................ >>>>

No, I rant and rave against the USE of and priority given to, certain kinds of technology and their use as numbing drug for people to live vicariously through fiction and artificiality because ``real`` life has become so detached and drab and routine, in other words standardized beyond reason to the detriment of human development. We are not robots but the elite have converted us into such and applied all the technology at their disposal. And idiot, don`t try to attack Islam, if you have read the book, the Quran you would note that it reproduces every objection that disbelievers had when they challenged it and after reproducing it answers those objections. Bring me another ``religious`` book that does that. And you have the audacity to talk about hiding and censorship and control? There is no masking, there is no hiding. Time and again you read in the Quran `` They say: such and so``, ``Say to them:....`` and it offers reason as argumentation


To the author, I`m sorry for detracting from the topic at times, but these damn fools need to be taught a lesson.

#88 by tahmed32/#89 by Kulharee

You a$$holes ... you`re here for nothing else than feel-good stuff looking at your own posts. You don`t know anything.

So ... fcuk off.

Means of transport cannot be compared with instruments of cultural domination.

Sorry Masadi saheb...as usual you could not comprehend the lesson behind the story.....or rathar you do not want to look at these incidents as an evidence of the conservative mullah`s insecurity.........The incident was an example of the reponse by a conservative stratum within a community towards the introduction of new technologies within a community. The incident demonstrates how the mullahs get afraid of their ``flock`` moving out of their sphere of influence because of the ``freedom`` of phyical mobility that the new technology offered . The response towards new technologies like TV and internet bu mullahs like you has been identical. You hate these technologies because the ummah is now open to new ideas of democracy, secularism and freedom from propaganda unleashed by mullahs like you......Becasue of this technology you also lose the inherent power to punish, censor and inflict violence over those who spread ideas that challenge your claim to the ``TRUTHS`` .

`` The village paradise versus the city ghetto that is the choice that was given to the indians and I don`t blame the mullah for choosing the village paradise. ``

Wrong again..................the villagers CHOSE cities to the supposedly ``paradise`` that the mullahs were offering..........just as the villagers rejected their lowly life in the so called village paradise as slaves to the mullahs, the citizens of this planet are similarly going to reject your propaganda against democracy , liberalism and secularism................

``Technology can be a force for good or evil, the ``demon`` is in its use and how it fits in with the roles and stauses assigned by a given social structure. ``

This time you got it right......but we obviously strongly differ on the values of ``good`` or ``evil`` ............

``When that social structure is busy breaking up all human relationships, seperating people for extrating maximum surplus from them both as workers and consumers ........``

Tell me Mr. know-it-all........was SLAVERY of the middle ages a ``virtous`` social structure............is ``theocracy`` a virtuous social structure?...........is the Shariat bound society an example of ``virtous`` social structure????....tell me what Utopia do you have to offer where people live in a land of honey and milk?

``and offering them artificialities like tv and the internet as substitute, that is when technology becomes an instrument of oppression. ``

what do you mean by ``offering them artificialities like tv and the internet as substitute``.................mullahs like you rant an rave because the younger generation PREFERS to spend their time communicating with each other about their secular aspirations using internet than listen to your propaganda....... You rant and rave against technology because now it is difficult for you to hold claims towards special status that you tried as a Prophet of the ``TRUTH``............................

#108, ballukhan
<<< Re: # 96
``The internet fits into the same tradition of making all human relationships superficial and ``touch and go``, put into place by industrial capitalism, similar to the TV that played its role in breaking up community, fire side tales and social tradition. ``

I recall when the tracks were being laid for the steam engines in Indian villages..........the mullahs would rant about the fire spewing demon being invited by the British to rob the people of their ``village paradise``. >>>

Means of transport cannot be compared with instruments of cultural domination. Also, don`t raise the stature of the mullah by giving him that much insight, the British did rob the Indians blind. The village paradise versus the city ghetto that is the choice that was given to the indians and I don`t blame the mullah for choosing the village paradise. Technology can be a force for good or evil, the ``demon`` is in its use and how it fits in with the roles and stauses assigned by a given social structure. When that social structure is busy breaking up all human relationships, seperating people for extrating maximum surplus from them both as workers and consumers and offering them artificialities like tv and the internet as substitute, that is when technology becomes an instrument of oppression.

Now if that is too far beyond your comprehension, may I politely ask you to take your snake charming, rain dancing, magic bean selling posts to another thread.

Respectfully submitted,

Masadi saheb why do you not go and spread your good word amongst the Frethinkers than tryng to terrorize the faithfuls.......................Say what you can to refute the thesis provided in the article below:-

Do Our Values Come from God?
The Evidence Says No
Victor J. Stenger

Published on June 21, 2005



http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/vstenger/morality_god.htm

Re: # 96
``The internet fits into the same tradition of making all human relationships superficial and ``touch and go``, put into place by industrial capitalism, similar to the TV that played its role in breaking up community, fire side tales and social tradition. ``

I recall when the tracks were being laid for the steam engines in Indian villages..........the mullahs would rant about the fire spewing demon being invited by the British to rob the people of their ``village paradise``.

Remember, that those who have power, and who seem invulnerable are in fact quite vulnerable, that their power depends on the obedience of others, and when those others begin withholding that obedience, begin defying authority, that power at the top turns out to be very fragile. Generals become powerless when their soldiers refuse to fight, industriaists become powerless when their workers leave the jobs or occupy the factories. When we forget the fragility of that power in top we become astounded when it crumbles in the face of rebellion. We have had many such surprises in our time, both in the United States and in other countries.

Howard Zinn


The day is coming when the tyranny of the US elite will collapse, and collapse it will. That day humanity will rejoice for the slave masters will be no more. tahmed`s ``gods`` will abandon him and leave him in the lurch.

Wo din key jis ka waada hey
hum dekhain gey

#104tahmed writes <<< The US is the pace-setter for human progress towards everything that is right. The US haters (the rogue mullahs who are no better than common criminals) are the hurdles to human progress. You ignore the latter and try to defame the former. >>>>

Once again he is busy singing the hamd o naat of his ``God``, even as he lies that I ignore the mullahs, when I have condemned them and their relationship in this cycle of violence set in place by the US elite. The rogue mullah are the common criminals like you say but the US elite are the higher criminals whose crime and corruption has greater consequence the globe over

tahmed: <<< No amount of abuse and namecalling will change this fundamental problem. And that is why , as a muslim, I can tell you without playing God that you are headed for hell. >>>>

Yes, you are playing the same role that pharaoh`s conusel played or the elders of Mecca played or the Jewish elders played when the prophets talked against the evil perpetuated by the hegemonic powers of the time. They condemned them to hell, called them evil and plotted against them. Note here, since you are going to jump on this, that I am not comparing my role to the role of the prophets, but I sure as hell am comparing your role to the role of those thugs that rallied with the powers that be to perpetuate inequality and evil and accused the prophets falsely. You are a dispicable fool. Supporting the status quo and the hegemonic elite has only made problems worse, only the face of their alleged enemy has changed, everything else has remained the same and humanity continues to suffer even as they surround us with slogans and myths. The wealth and power of this elite continues to grow and the wealth controlled by the vast majority of humanity including the vast majority of Americans continues to dwindle, and you damn fool by supporting this are playing a part and will be responsible before God for this evil. I don`t think you should worry about others going to hell when you yourself are stumbling wildly towards it.

masadi #1-3 ``you have already borrowed most of what I say about it, ``
So, you have a copyright on the Quran!! I am sure Allah would be most interested in learning about this.

`` You try to play god, condemn people to hell and heaven, ``
You dont have to play god to be able to tell whether or not someone is following the Quranic injunctions. Indeed, an ounce of common sense would make it obvious to anyone that anyone claiming to be a muslim then has a fundamental responsibility to try and distinguish between right and wrong. You are one step ahead of the mullah, i have already acknowledged, insofar as you reject the hadith. To be a muslim in deed and in word, you need to take the next step and take on the responsibility of telling it like it is. Then I would take you more seriously.

The US is the pace-setter for human progress towards everything that is right. The US haters (the rogue mullahs who are no better than common criminals) are the hurdles to human progress. You ignore the latter and try to defame the former.

No amount of abuse and namecalling will change this fundamental problem. And that is why , as a muslim, I can tell you without playing God that you are headed for hell. Where you will enjoy the company of rogues like Maulana Maudoodi and General Zia.

This is quite amusing, these idiots using every excuse in the book and all kinds of sermons of hellfire and Guantanamo to make damn fools of themselves. Where should I start to mock their posts or should I even bother?

tahmed writes <<< I am glad you were honest enough to admit your mistake. But then, you negated that by trying to quickly cover it up by referring to some other board. I may have called you a ``pea brain`` (although I dont recall that), but that would have been directly to you out of frustration >>>>

What mistake was I trying to cover up? the one where I said you called me an imbecile when you had called me ``pea brain`` and that is a ``mistake`` that you are proud of pointing out. MashAllah, you cannot deal with one argument I put up against the US elite and their world system, and the error in my posts that tahmed is proud of is what, imbecile vs pea brain. Here indulge yourself, you called me a `pea brain` because you couldnt counter my argument but felt helpless to respond otherwise:

tahmed: <<< #139 by tahmed32 on March 11, 2006 8:37am PT
#135 dont expect me to spend time reading your lengthy posts, given the demonstration of your pea-brained capacity to think clearly (see #138 below).
Link: http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006375&channel=civic%20center&threshold=1&layout=0&order=0&start=10&end=19&page=1#139

>>>


tahmed: << and dont talk to me about the Quran >>

I don`t have to, you have already borrowed most of what I say about it, even as you proclaim that I am a `mullah`. You try to play god, condemn people to hell and heaven, support the tryannous elite without reason or fact and then you tout the Quran. Hypocrite. And on top of that you encourage that damn fool Hamidm2 who finds excuses to use his dim wit intellect to poke fun at the Quran. You find him fantastic yet you criticize me. Your judgment is the domain of Allah but let me tell you, I would NEVER EVER want to be in your position when I go in front of God.

tahmed: <<< And you violate the Quran every time you try to defame a fine community of people, the United States of America >>>

First, I am not defaming the ``fine community of people`` as you state, I am defaming based upon fact and justice the tiny elite that oppresses humankind all over the globe including the ``fine community`` you talk about. Second, you idolator, you worship and proclaim the praises of this elite moreso that you do God, you cannot question them or thier motives or what they do or have done. Never have I seen you say a word that condemns even the worst atrocities that they have committed. Damn fool, you have the audacity to claim to be a friend of humanity or any community of humans and you have the audacity to claim following the Quran. You are a hypocrite and the worst among all posters here. Atleast the Islam haters are honest about their hate and are upfront, even though they are ignorant. You on the other hand, hide your idolatory, worship the American elite, while putting up a facade of Quran this or that, even though in essence you don`t believe it. You question God moreso than you question the deeds of the US elite. You are dispicable.

Hamidm2 writes

<<<< masadi,

.......... thamed is a true believer - he is merely following this koranic injunction in his struggle against your hypocritical evil :

``O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.`` >>>

We all know how much your intellect allows you to understand the Quran, so why don`t you can it, and play your role as the chowk (court) jester, like you have been doing since God knows when.

#100 thank you, hamidm. a very relevant verse from the Quran you have quoted, if i may say so in all humility!!

masadi: ``Oh, my error. You called me a pea brain (on HP`s Iran thread), a much grander honor than imbecile. ``

I am glad you were honest enough to admit your mistake. But then, you negated that by trying to quickly cover it up by referring to some other board. I may have called you a ``pea brain`` (although I dont recall that), but that would have been directly to you out of frustration (as no doubt you must have heard your teachers say a million times to you: ``You knucklehead , Asad!! You forgot to pack your brain to school. Again!!

and dont talk to me about the Quran - while I am glad you reject hadith, you violate the Quran every time you try to be clever by being dishonest. And you violate the Quran every time you try to defame a fine community of people, the United States of America. So go to hell.

masadi,

.......... thamed is a true believer - he is merely following this koranic injunction in his struggle against your hypocritical evil :

``O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.``

............ you, sir, are a very bad man and deserve what is coming your way - guantanamo for three years, followed by eternity in hell ........... repent, while there is still time ...

#97tahmed writes <<< God`s orders for ``talaash-i-goomshooda`` may now be rescinded, and the Day of Judgement court will be back in session >>>

If anyone has illusions of grandeur, it is you. You are trying to make a mockery of the Quran by trying to play God. Like Hamidm2`s attempts at mockery, the last laugh will be on you

tahmed: <<< Kindly refrain from questioning the qualifications of the court appointed psychoanalyst. Mr. tahmed his a psychiatrist with many years of experience >>>>

Countering rational argumentation with labels or psychoanalytic diagnosis of motivation just does not cut it. I thought professionals in the field, the qualified shrinks were not so slip shod regarding their field. You sound like a teenager throwing around his or her knowledge of psychology after taking a freshman level course, with zero evidence or credibility.

tahmed: << The hon`ble Tahmed never called you an imbecile.... >>

Oh, my error. You called me a pea brain (on HP`s Iran thread), a much grander honor than imbecile.

tahmed: <<< What you write speaks louder than anything anyone can say about you..>>

Yes it does, and what I write is what ruins your happy world view and brings out all kinds of irrationality in your friends, it even forces hamidm2 to quote the Quran.

Yeah, let`s have some more posts from fuzair trying to save face for tahmed by reminding him how I entered a particular room, left foot first instead of the right and how that ``proves`` I am an imbecile, and let us also have hamidm2 quote some Quran to admonish me; atleast he is looking in the right spot. What a grand achievement for me, to have made hamidm2 look deeply into the Quran for wisdom

masadi #93 Good to see you back. God`s orders for ``talaash-i-goomshooda`` may now be rescinded, and the Day of Judgement court will be back in session per the schedule in the Great Court Docket.

But first, a couple of administrative things.

You write to fuzair: ``You, like tahmed who is busy psychoanalyzing my motivations (without having any qualification to do so) just make claims.``

Court response: Kindly refrain from questioning the qualifications of the court appointed psychoanalyst. Mr. tahmed his a psychiatrist with many years of experience with chowk cases. He has been prescribing pills for basket cases from India as well as from Pakistan.

You write to fuzair: That damn fool (meaning, the learned amicus curiae Tahmed) comes up with fiction tales and then calls me an imbecile.

Court response: Let the court record this as perjury. The hon`ble Tahmed never called you an imbecile. What you write speaks louder than anything anyone can say about you.

Finally the court has already heard from the left hand and the right hand of Masadi (as noted earlier by the amicus curiae. Testimony from Masadi`s left foot and right foot concerning how he wasted his Life on Earth will be heard in due course.

#90, tahmed writes <<< I think people like masadi (and I know you are reading this masadi, and dont pretent otherwise!!) badly need to read the long-standing best-seller book ``Getting to say Yes`` >>>> (emphasis mine)

Since the poor fellow cannot deal with the evidence I present in my posts to support my claims, he wants to point me to a totally unrelated book so that somehow I can numb my senses and accept his BS. Then his post shows extreme obsession with my posts, something that I had told Mr. Sohail (in his article about the internet & community) about, as I sought his help for tahmed:

<<<
#1 by masadi on March 9, 2006 10:33pm PT
The author writes <<< There is no doubt that the internet has revolutionized how we communicate with the rest of the world >>>

On the contrary there is much doubt about any beneficial ``revolution”-taking place. The internet fits into the same tradition of making all human relationships superficial and ``touch and go``, put into place by industrial capitalism, similar to the TV that played its role in breaking up community, fire side tales and social tradition. All steps towards the dumbing down of the human race as detailed prose is replaced by short memos or one liners and smilies, while the onslaught of corporate culture colonizes social tradition. Much more effort and as a result, sincerity and concern, went into the snail mail letter writing than goes into emails, the letter as such has lost its literary value.

That said, Sohail sahib, tahmed is in dire need of your Internet psychiatry services. He has been obsessing over my posts and imagining them even when I don`t post. I am gone a few short hours and he is already worked up about why masadi hasn`t written on here. What label from the DSM fits his ailment?

>>>

Enjoy.

Here is fuzair`s post on what he claims was my ``Islamic banking piece`` that I didnt answer. Let`s see the calibre of his post once again (and I`m sorry for detracting from the topic, but I want to show you all how worthless these liars are).

<<< #5 Muslims and Modern Banking: A Rejoinder on March 1, 2006
OK, I found an old post of mine that is on topic here. It`s from ``Interest Free Pakistan`` (http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000982&channel=market%20street&threshold=1&layout=0&order=0&start=200&end=209&page=1#66)
and it might be interesting to some.

Mr. Asadi might be interested in learning a little bit more about the topic rather than just repeating ``just because`` but sociology is notoriously deadening for the brain....

#66 by fuzair on January 23, 2001 9:42am PT
We have to realize that banning interest is a common feature of many primitive economic systems. Scarcity/subsistence economies favor `profit/loss sharing` (PLS) institutions because this is a risk reduction mechanism. If you are living on the margin of existence and you borrow money for a business/trading venture which fails AND you have to repay the entire loan PLUS interest, you and your family starve. However, if this is not a loan but an equity stake, then you and your investor lose out (you lose some time and your part of the investment, he is out money) `equally` and you and your family don`t starve.

I believe Aristotle wrote against interest, the early and medieval Catholic church banned it and thought it work fit only for Jews when it had to be done and now it us benighted Muslims that are going to repeat the mistakes of centuries ago. Oh, thats right, we are in the 15th century.

So what is wrong with non-interest based systems? Many things.

First, what is interest? They teach us in Econ 101 that it is the `cost` of borrowing money since money is a commodity like corn or steel. Actually, it is more like the `rental` fee for using money since it has to be returned after use!

However, interest is also what equates the value of future consumption with that of present consumption. Without going into present value calculations, it is clear that the future is worth less to us than the present. Why? Because the future is by definition unknown. As Shakespeare said, it is the unknown country. We might be run over by a bus next month or shot by the Taliban next year for not having a beard. So to persuade us to save some part of our income for the future, we are paid interest so that the additional income we receive in the future compensates for the greater risk attached to postponing current consumption.

We could of course, being rational and knowing that we have to save for the future since we are likely to live on for a few more years, convert our unneeded camels into gold and bury it under our tent but that deprives the economy of the money needed to maintain a high level of economic activity.

So whats wrong with PLS systems? They work reasonably well in very restricted economic systems where everybody knows everybody else and the relative risk of the venture and the relative trustworthiness of the participants is common knowledge. However, in larger and more complex economic systems, such knowledge is NOT common. Then you have the problem of assymetric (one-sided) information (I know that I am a cheat but you don`t) and moral hazard (if I decide not to work as hard at making the venture a success, then I lose only half, not all) and adverse selection (I invest in a bad man`s camel trading venture) make it harder for PLS to work. There is a basic principal-agent problem here but that is covered in the moral hazard and adverse selection problems.

But why all these problems? Because there are too many people and too many businesses and we are only boundedly (not infinitely) rational.

So interest-based banking fits in quite nicely here. The savers (the source of the funds) are guaranteed their nice, safe but small return. The bank does the basic information gathering (credit reports) to rank-order the creditworthiness of borrowers and makes its decisons accordingly. We still have some of the same basic problems as before (some loans--in Pakistan all big loans--do go bad) but at a much smaller scale.

Now, interest-based banking also provides security to the small savers ( I KNOW that I will be earning 6% p.a.) that, theoretically, is not there in PLS systems. If the principal is guaranteed, that is NOT Islamic since then there is no risk. If a minimum return is guaranteed, that is also not Islamic. In advanced economies, if people want a higher return, they can invest in the stock market--riskier but PLS--or venture capitalism--very risky but real PLS!

My experience of PLS banking in Pakistan is about a decade out-of-date but I can assure you that there was nothing Islamic about it. We literally used the same forms as before, just changing a few words (e.g., `rate of service charge` for `interest rate`). One key difference was that the maximum repayment amount was set (i.e., size of default penalty), which is not usually found in more conventional systems.

There was also nothing Islamic about our Modarabas, they worked on the same `sale and buyback` basis that we used in our hypothecation (i.e., collateral or security) agreements.

My point here is that we made banking `Islamic` by changing the words and not the practices. I`ve heard that the government is going to abolish Defence and other savings certificates since they pay a fixed rate of profit (note the usage mind you, profit and not interest). So what is the govt going to do? Technically it is always making a loss (have we ever run a budget surplus?) so how can it Islamically pay its bondholders? Incidentally, I`ve also read that the govt has assured the IMF and WB that it is not going to do away with its bonds.

Why would any one in his or her right mind enter into a PLS agreement with the Pakistani government?

So why do people with Ph.D.s in Economics blather on about Islamic economics? Why did Ph.D.s in Economics extoll the virtues of Socialism? Because they are ideologues and not practitioners. These people compare the theoretical virtues of an ideal system (true socialism or true Islam) with the very imperfect workings of the real world (e.g., the US economy). Guess what? The real world lost.

Now what about people like Maududi et al? For them Islam is perfection so Islamic finance MUST work. In any case, they are also ideologues not concerned with the real world workings of economies and so actually trying to work out a plan to implement it is not their concern.

In theory I guess you could work out people`s rate of time preference and so work out some sort of a `virtual` interest rate that would allow optimum resource allocation decisions between present and future consumption. However, this smacks of Alec Nove`s fatuous comment (I believe in the `Economics of Feasible Socialism) that socialism could work if they could just duplicate the price mechanism. So Islamic economics could work if they could just duplicate the interest rate! Wah ji wah!!

So why go through all these contortions trying to make elephants fly? Because we are stupid.

Regards. >>>>>

First there is no question, it is a copy paste from an earlier post of his. Let`s go through the post and see what he is selling:

Fuzair : ``Mr. Asadi might be interested in learning a little bit more about the topic rather than just repeating ``just because`` but sociology is notoriously deadening for the brain.... ``

If all he got out of the article was ``just because`` then I`m sorry no answer will suffice for him. The interest article was written first in 1991 and then revised in 1995. I constructed a econometrics model based upon it and tested it empirically regarding many of the claims that are backed up by authoritative sources, and the professor, not an Islamist by the way had great praise for it. It was not based on just because. Then this damn fool claims that sociology is ``deadning for the brain``. I can bet he does not even know the scope and meaning of the word, and I challenge him here to explain what sociology is without repeating the redundant definition ``scientific study of society``, which is a tautological explaination. Nothing in this part, so let`s move on

Fuzair: ``We have to realize that banning interest is a common feature of many primitive economic systems. Scarcity/subsistence economies favor `profit/loss sharing` (PLS) institutions because this is a risk reduction mechanism. If you are living on the margin of existence and you borrow money for a business/trading venture which fails AND you have to repay the entire loan PLUS interest, you and your family starve. However, if this is not a loan but an equity stake, then you and your investor lose out (you lose some time and your part of the investment, he is out money) `equally` and you and your family don`t starve. ``

Nonsense reasoning, the same argument can be made for people living on the ``margins`` in the so-called ``advanced societies``. The type of economy is not the factor in levels of risk for people living on the margins, they are equally suseptible to starvation, in fact they are dying in greater number these days than days gone by. And don`t forget rules were not set in societies based upon ``those at the margins``, so your entire thesis is based on whim and not much else. It was outlawed by Islam, because it made the rich richer while impoverishing the poor, regardless of risk. Can you produce one verifiable reference (compared to the many that I produce in my article) that backs you half baked ``thesis``?

Fuzair: ``....So to persuade us to save some part of our income for the future, we are paid interest so that the additional income we receive in the future compensates for the greater risk attached to postponing current consumption.``

Not so, and this was answered in the article itself. First you don`t take note of the fact that what you get in the future, due to the inflation creating activities of money lending institutions and other reasons might not even make up the balance. Next, you ignore the fact that savings are not motivated by a higher interest rate, like the article stated quoting Dornbusch and Fisher`s standard Macro Econ book: ``But should we really expect an increase in the interest rate to increase savings? It is true that when the interest rate rises, saving is made more attractive. But it is also made less necessary. Consider someone who has decided to save an amount that will ensure that $10,000 per year is available for retirement. Suppose that the interest rate now is 5% and the person is saving $1,000 per year. Now let the interest rate rise to 10%. With such a high interest rate, the individual needs to save less now to provide the given 10,000 per year during retirement. It may be possible to provide the same retirement income by saving only about $650 a year. Thus an increase in the interest rate might reduce saving. (Dornbusch, Fischer 278)

Not only that I tested it using US data in 1995 and found a negative relationship between interest rates and savings. There, you pulled out BS out of thin air while I did real scientific work on forming my conclusion.

Then you talk about the Pakistan PLS system. I am not defending that at all. You are looking at the benefits of interest from the consumer of interest`s point of view. I am looking at it from the society and the globe`s point of view and the hazards that such lending practices and institutions have brought upon the world, like the IMF/World Bank, causing inflation, making sure that wealth circulates among a small select few while giving to most small investors even less than the rate of inflation makes it quite clear that there is no justification from a humanitarian point of view of interest based banking.

YOU LIED when you said I didn`t answer you. Your claims were infantile and half baked, ill thought out, which you had presented without any sources or evidence and many of the posts I did, did address the points raised in your post. The only thing you mention in the article is Econ 101 and then you have the audacity to say that I am an imbecile who says his point is right ``just because``. If I have missed answering any of your ``claims`` that are jumping out at you, let me know. I am fully capable of dismantling your ``whim based`` scholarship. Sociology is not deadning for the mind, contrary to that your posts reveal a dead mind. Sociology helps you see the BIG picture, which in your narrow, selfish mentality you are incapable of seeing. Now take you BS and return to that narrow hole that defines your existance.

Ms. Turkey. How about getting out of your unmodern cave and signing this petition?


MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Like men, women should have the right to decide how they will live, dress, travel, marry and divorce; if they do not enjoy these rights, they are clearly second-class citizens.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: All critiques of Islam should be countered not by threats and violence, but by rational counter-argument

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We strongly denounce anti-Semitism. We accept Israel`s right to exist.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We accept the legitimacy of the secular state and the secular law. Islamic law, or sharia, was developed at a time when Muslims were living in homogenous communities. In the modern world, virtually all societies are pluralistic, consisting of different faiths and of different perceptions of each faith, including Islam. In this pluralistic setting, a legal system based on a particular version of a single religion cannot be imposed on all citizens.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We support and cherish democracy — not because we reject the sovereignty of the Almighty over people, but because we believe that this sovereignty is manifested in the general will of people in a democratic and pluralistic society. We do not accept theocratic rule

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: we cherish religious liberty. Every human has the right to believe or not to believe in Islam or in any other religion All Muslims furthermore have the right to reject and change their religion if desired

Sign it here
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol_baran200603010816.asp

#86 fuzair writes <<< Why do you waste your time with this imbecile Masadi? >>>

Given the calibre of my posts vs yours, people can tell who the imbecile is. Read your post again, it has not a shread of evidence against or for anything, then go and read my posts, every single claim I make is backed by facts that you can verify or constructed in a logically convincing manner. It is very easy to claim three weeks after the fact that I ignored answering one of your questions out of the ten dozen that were thrown at me. Show me how your question was relevant and cannot be rationally answered. You, like tahmed who is busy psychoanalyzing my motivations (without having any qualification to do so) just make claims. That damn fool comes up with fiction tales and then calls me an imbecile, and you sorry sob have nothing better to do than tell people to ignore me even though you cannot logically/empirically challenge my claims

And tahmed, I have presented fact after fact which you dismiss saying that I do so because it makes me ``feel good``. Why aren`t more people doing that if gives people such a ``high``? Further, I am not going against the US when I condemn the US elite, the country is supposed to be described by its people not the tiny elite that has a social profile that does not match the vast majority of those in this country. You don`t understand a damn thing do you. You are so deeply buried in the official mythology of the corporate media concerning America and what it is so that you don`t even know who or what defines this country. In my books, you are a total damn fool.

Saima, {``On the cusp of the East and the West, Turkey was the first to relinquish its pre-modern code for modernity. It has seen the dubious results of drastic reinvention in the modernization of Turkey. Turkey lost its script, its language and its clothes. Did it become a world leader of anything as a result? Ummm. Not really. One of the conundrums of the modernity brigade is that Turkey, after expunging dogmatic religion did not become an egalitarian, open society of exemplary tolerance. ..Quite ironically Turkey gave more to the world in the times of the Ottoman empire than in its modern incarnation 50 years ago. Its forced ‘modernization’, cut away the heart of its identity and it has never really found a replacement in post-modern materialism. ``}

Saima,
First let me comment on your article. It is written very well and you have presented you point of view effectively. I appreciate your effort in bringing an interesting and controversial topic to everyone`s attention. You have connected many unrelated and pertinent issues all into a condemnation of modernity - with all its problems of under-population, longevity, improved health, higher standard of living, reliance on automation for boring, mundane chores, and lack of back-breaking ordeals of toil and suffering. Yes, we need to hand it to you to bring back the good old days of pre-modernity. Needless to say, I vehemently disagree with your illogical conclusions.

Now, your comments about Turkey are not exactly accurate either. The ``lost script`` was Arabic and the ``lost language`` was heavily influenced by Arabic and Persian. Thanks to Ataturk, Turkey switched to Roman script and restored the language, though, unfortunately not completely, to its original Turkic roots. The change in script has resulted in a literacy rate that is in the 85% range. The clothing you refer to - turbans, fez, shalwars, and flowing robes - were all borrowed from others and to this day one can recognize the rural poor by their baggy shalwars where the crotch hangs at the knees. Being a world power from the 14th through the 19th centuries, caused Ottoman Turkey to fight war after war, only to lose it all in 1917 thanks to the disloyalty of their Arab co-religionists and the infamous Lawrence of Arabia - so much for Islamic unity. It was non-existent even before it vanished.

Turkey, while far from being a true reflection of 21st century European society, is much more tolerant, modern, and egalitarian than most countries to its east. Turkey today is not a world leader in anything, except the dubious lead in production of sheep. However, it is a much better place in which to live than many countries of the world. The weather is gorgeous, the law and order situation is superior, and the people are well-fed, disciplined, helpful, and courteous. Women can walk safely in urban areas at all hours and religious bigotry is minimal - although there are some troubling signs of a resurgence of fanaticism. In Turkey you can drink locally-produced Efes beer while you listen to the beautiful Azaan - now in Arabic. Turks don`t drink in mosques and don`t pray in bars, while both flourish. Turkey is just fine, thank you. :)

kulharee jee: i just did a bit of intellectualizing myself in #90!! so what can i say about others. :-)

fuzair: i stopped taking masadi seriously though when i realized that communication for him was a one-way street: he talks and you listen. :-)

but then, there are not too many people on chowk who are capable of rational discussion or of changing their mind on anything. They will stick to their positions come hell or high water and keep ranting on the same bloody thing year after year.

I think people like masadi (and I know you are reading this masadi, and dont pretent otherwise!!) badly need to read the long-standing best-seller book ``Getting to say Yes`` (which they had us read in the organization i used to work for) - and which makes a sharp distinction between the position people take in discussions vs. the underlying reason they are that gave rise to their position.

So, the underlying concern in case of masadi and others who love to rant against the US (and this is my hypothesis) is the ego satisfaction from taking on the US. Try to present him with facts, and he will ignore that, and in fact further increase his ego satisfaction by assuring you that you are a slave of the US (meaning, he is not, because look, masadi spits at even the greatest US!!). So, while he may seem like an imbecile to you - i think it has more to do with ego needs rather than with a lack of intellect.

while i do come to chowk basically to kill some time, i must admit that i enjoy writing stuff here and a number of chowk posters - like hamidm - are fun to read regardless of whether you agree with everything they say.

Re: # 88

T-Bone Saab. You pull a brick, and you get a dilettante logician and a philosopher rolled into one. All you have to do is to look around.

zeemax: ``Post-modernity is a zero sum game. ``

oh all these intellectuals....where do they all come from!!

Saima is right. Post-modernity is a zero sum game. Eventually it will collapse, and we will all happily start from scratch.

Circles in spirals and wheels within wheels ...

Tahmed

Why do you waste your time with this imbecile Masadi? Unless, of course, you are bored and just watch enjoy him rant and rave? If you will have noticed, he didn`t reply--because there is no possible rational reply--to my post on his Islamic Banking nonsense article.

Asadi is one of those delusional people who thinks that the world should simply conform to his particular set of delusions and the fact that it has not, is proof of a ``vast, right wing conspiracy.`` Maybe we can get our resident shrink to prescribe some Zoloft, or Prozac, or something to quiet the voices in his head.

Saima Khan , u better read Manto`s Ganjay Frishtay. He has a better solution for crazy women like you.

re:#71 by masadi
Masadi dude,
go and eat Castro`s crap, freely available in cuba, West Bengal and communist China. Highly sought after by leftist intellectuals (i am told Buddhadeb Bandhopadhyaya eats it regularly). Let me know if u need fresh samples.
Sridhar

#78 Tauheed saheb

I am glad that you are according to #77 all the seriousness that it was due (and intended to convey).

In fairness, it must be acknowledged that the last paragraph of #69 (which in turn, inspired #77) was particularly hilarious!

#82 Free-sole

Which shoe are you a sole of (left or right), how come you were sold for free, and what has any of this discussion got to do with the article?

Wait, I got it!

[Even though the chances of a suffragette movement ever emerging in Asia, gay pride or black resistance are remote, a quasi resistance to modernity is in the very fabric of identity in the sub-continent.]

I think you must be that famous ``qasi resistance to modernity`` (gheesa-peeta-joota) who has taken many a drubbings, is full of holes, yet goes on and on - preventing the current crop of hot-bloods (not to mention hot hormones) from rushing in and remaking the world in their own image!

Re# 77

what does this `bjkumar` means?

1. Bhai Ji Kumar
2. Blow Job, Kumar?
3. Billo Ji, Kumar
4. Bhagwan Jhukas Khuwar


Which one ??????

This year`s top offer for an IIM Graduate - US $193,000 per year.

Ref arjun_m #1

[Take a look at how many IIM grads refuse foreign offers because they want to do their thing in India...something that would be met with derision less than 15 years ago..]

18 MBA grads (Class of 2006) of Indian Institute of Management-Ahmedabad have turned down offers of foreign postings and opted to stay back in India.

masadi #76 God has better things to do than be your damned witness!! Your left foot is your witness!!

bjkumar: i was amusing myself and having a good laugh while writing it. do you seriously think i care what any of the geniuses on chowk think?

#various tahmed

Your valiant yet increasing feeble attempts at making Mr. Masadi cringe in humiliation have all gone to waste. Dear sir, all those years of interacting appear to have taken their toll. Just face it, you don`t have his level of stamina anymore. Your cause is lost - and the supplication you seek is nowhere in sight! (And do not at this point try to turn around and pretend that you and Mr. Masadi are actually on the same side - and are a bunch of jolly old fellows - and you hang out at the bar together - your distress is quite evident.)

It is obvious that Mr. Masadi shall continue to hold the banner of Pakistan all by himself and unperturbed by pesky old knats (like yourselves) raise it to such immense heights that the whole world - not just this make-believe one - will see it from far and wide for what it is - and has always been - about.

Your sneaky attempts to bring in the author of this piece into this mud-sling-fest also appear to have failed.

#75 by tahmed32
[Right Hand of Masadi: ....Left Hand of Masadi (weeping): ....]
It`s plain to see why Mr. Masadi is unable to heed Hamidm. Both hands are occupied.

[Masadi (trying to speak through the seal): mmmfffffffffffff....US...mffffff....Elite....mffffff ]
Perhaps the mouth, too.

#75 by tahmed <<< masadi: So, you think you will talk back to Allah on the Judgement Day when He tells you to zip it!! >>>

Once again this delusional schitzo is playing God, and to add to his delusions, he wants me to accept what he says as he plays God. Also note that in his fiction tale that he has spun, he doesn`t lose the opportunity to proclaim the praises and sing the hamd o naat of America, ``the sweet land of...hypocrisy, the home to the tiny elite that brings misery upon the world even as they claim moral superiority.``

With God as my witness, you`ll see what happens to these A.H`s who have broken every scale of barbarity, on the day of judgment.

masadi: So, you think you will talk back to Allah on the Judgement Day when He tells you to zip it!! !! On the Judgement Day your lips shall be sealed, and your hands and feet will do the talking. And what will they talk about??

Right Hand of Masadi: Oh Lord!! Masadi did use me to defame this fine country, the United States of America. That Sweet Land of Liberty, oh Lord!! Home to millions of refugees, idealists, thinkers, scientists, philosophers

Left Hand of Masadi (weeping): And not just that. This knave to whom we were stuck for life, could barely type a sentence without harping about the ``US Elite``. I got so tired of tapping the same empty phrases over and over again on the keyboard, Oh Lord!!

Masadi (trying to speak through the seal): mmmfffffffffffff....US...mffffff....Elite....mffffff

Re: # 73

Asadi… You cannot give sight to people who are blind? Did you have an illusion that you could? You really believe that you the second coming of Christ? What a joker.

In terms of staying away from your BS. Trust me that doesn’t even take an effort on my part.

#72 Kulharee writes <<< What BS proofs have you presented >>>>

None whatsoever that appeals to you. You are beyond all that. I cannot give sight to people who are blind. Like I told you before, keep as far away from my posts as possible.

Re: # 71

Asadi, like your heroes you get happiness in looking to humiliate and disgrace people, because your coconut is devoid of any ability to reason. What BS proofs have you presented other than your daily boring garbage about the mysterious US elite which have still to be defined. Please have some mercy on educated intelligent people and take your garbage back to camel land. They really need hate mongering scholars like you.

#69 tahmed writes <<< and thou wilt now zip it!!! >>>

Not a chance. I`ll keep humiliating you based upon facts and disgracing you based upon reason. As for your sermons and taking over the domain of God by assinging people to heaven and hell, I`ll leave your judgment and mine to Allah.

and as for ms. shah, the one that claimeth to despise the fruits of the earth even as she doth feast upon them...the Goat itself hath eaten the chapters reserved for those such as thee!!

masadi #67 How the heathen doth rage!!

Heedeth thou not the admonishments of the prophets, O misguided one??!! Trembleth thou not as thy Lord unleasheth Mog and also Magog at sinners like thineself!!

Seeketh thou not penance while there is time still?? Or shall ye wait till the Day that the Trumpet shall sound, the mountains shall float like clouds in the sky, the seas will come to a boil, and the heavens shall be rent asunder?? On that Day the Lord ( thy God) shall descend to earth on His Judgement Seat. On that Day shall Ajooj and Majooj finally break through the netherworld and seek out sinners like thou.

On that Day shalt thou seek penenace..and for penance the time would have passed. And in vain shall thee cry out ``O, if only I had listened to tahmed32 when there was still time``. In vain. And thy Lord shall tell thee that thy time is up, thou hast flunked the test, and thou wilt now zip it!!!

#55 by ranjit <<< Re:masadi#49

What utter bakwaas!! This is total hypocrisy. Actions speak louder than words>>>

After having been logically and factually defeated the idiots keep repeating their nonsense ad nauseum, so that such repition might trap a few unsuspecting folk. Note this now for the 105th time, Actions ONLY speak louder than words when the words are related to the action. My condemnation of the US elite and their global system has nothing to do with where I live, period. My arguments are not based on my personality or my morality or whatever, they are based on logic and facts, empirical evidence that can easily be verified.
I am totally amazed that the so-called educated people on here the physicians and the PhD and the ``IT specialists`` are so moronic and immature in their ability to reason and comprehend. All you education has been worthless if you can`t compose a decent argument or possess no fragment of critical reasoning skills. And I am sorry to say, most of you on here are a total disgrace where it comes to reasoning and thinking. All the wealth and money and goodies of this world and I wouldnt trade my position of reason with your BS.

Read tahmed`s response to my writing in #56. He writes

<<< masadi: Maulana Hamidm has provided you with Qurnaic verses that you would do well to heed and end your mischievous ways.

For verily, the Lord is not fooled by hot-air balloons like thee, O depraved one.!!

The Lord, thy God, shall smite thee with bamboo cane and cast thee unto the seventh circle of Hell, wherein to dwell in misery for all eternity with scum like mullah maudoodi, general zia and other frauds like thou!! Repent thy evil ways before Allah takes note of thy mischief, O hot air balloon!!! >>>

Now do you all need clearer evidence for the fact that this mullah, tahmed cannot deal with a single argument I post. He responds with fire and brimstone sermons condemning me to hell and what not? Is this not the mullah mentality. And wonder of wonders, hamidm2 who cannot find enough time in the day to poke fun at the Quran, quotes the Quran to admonish me, lol, this is the level of their helplessness in the face of facts and reason. Hamidm2 quotes the Quran:

<<< [9.67] The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors >>>>

Not knowing that this applies to hypocrites like tahmed who quote the Quran yet worship the American elite and their ways, he translates good to mean the ways of the capitalist west and evil to mean anyone going against those. How can evil be to seek justice and equality for humankind? How can it be evil to desire healthcare and proper nutrition for all? How can it be evil to condemn barbaric wars conducted by the American elite and finally how can it be evil to condemn ``yufsidoon a fil ard`` mass corruption/slaughter on earth?

You damn fools are pathetically ignorant and tahmed while condemning the Mullah`s has taken over the domain of Allah himself by assigning people to heaven and hell. He is a hypocrite and an idolator who worships the American elite.

And Kulharee Pakistani`s and Indians were not eating grass and goat dropping before your mysterious man from Cornell showed up. In fact the textile industy in India was much more advanced than that in Britain before the colonials destroyed it. And yes it is the purpose of these industrialists and the first world to keep the third busy with primary product production. Where is the equal sharing of technology if they mean well? Once again you speak without facts, the only ``droppings`` are the ones coming out of your mouth.

#65 If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say ``but hell would be where the fun people will be``, I could probably buy both jannat and dozakh and still have money left to spare.

And of course the haraamis of the world - the maulvis, the dictators - will all be in dozakh. Why would God put Madonna in dozakh, e.g.?? She has brought joy, not misery to the world!! She doesnt rant against other people or religions like maulvis. She doesnt overthrow elected governments!! And (to the best of my knowledge) she does not burp like a bullfrog after every meal like Masadi does (in imitation of his maulvi heroes)!!

Who wants to be in jannat with a million pieces of bearded jehadized sunni body parts - some carefully wrapped in Reynolds aluminum foil - rapaciously jumping on the hapless 72 virgs? Wouldn`t one rather be in jahannum with the rest of the much more interesting kafirdom?

RE: hamidm:
``...... this is what al-lah has to say about maulana masadi and comrade saima :
[9.67] The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors.
``

that verse trully knocked the living daylights out of me !

i was thinking saima shah and masadi would be dwelling anywhere But in my cosy compartment of Hell that was gonna be munafiq, kaafir only..

this cant be true!. it`d be hell to put up with `em for a friggin` eternity! i am so pissed right now.. :<

Re: # 61 Khalid_ahmad

I am total agreement with you.

Its classic example of USA Bad, West Bad, Technology Bad, Capatilism Bad , conspiracy Syndrome; ever so prevalent in pseudo intellectuals.

these guys have found an easy answer to every ill of third world;

#61 by khalid_ahmad on March 15, 2006 8:09am PT


USA bad. Modernity bad. Technology bad. Sounds no different than a rabid foaming mullah/mulli or commie/comma, doesn`t it?


It`s an incurable disease..America Is Doomed Syndrome(AIDS for short, if you will)..

Okay Saima Shah I actually read throug the entire ramble. Now tell me, what`s your point?

Tell you what. Using modern Find & Replace TECHNOLOGY, replace all the ``we`` (yes all 10,000 of them) in the ramble with an ``I``, and you can instantly see where all the problems and solutions lie.

USA bad. Modernity bad. Technology bad. Sounds no different than a rabid foaming mullah/mulli or commie/comma, doesn`t it?

``You see Watson, it is so obviously gratifying. Just guzzle some Chomsky koolaid and come running enlightened to belch all over a chat forum.``

In the early 60s, a Cornell professor, sponsored by the Rockefeller foundation helped Pakistan achieve the Green Revolution. If it weren’t for that, you will all be eating grass and goat droppings. I wonder how many of Asadi’s heroes have done anything to improve the lives of the residents of the poor countries?

Are technology and modernity synonyms? I don`t think so. Japan isn’t very modern even though technologically very advance. As somebody said, “Modernity is in mind.” Kabir and Nanak were uneducated but very modern but Tulsidas by contrast very educated, yet no less than a Mullah i.e. assuming being Mullah isn’t modern.

Turkish toil brings new form of faith
By Aasiya Lodhi
Producer, Night Waves, BBC Radio 3


Industrial and religious renewal go hand in hand in Turkey
In the Turkish city of Kayseri, Saffert Arsalan proudly shows off his furniture-making factory.
In little over a decade, Mr Arsalan`s business has grown from a small enterprise to a multi-million pound international operation, exporting products to the United States, Germany and Israel.
It`s an enormous success story for a man whose own father had been a carpet weaver, eking out a living in a traditional artisan economy.
Yet Mr Arsalan is not alone.
His native city is full of prospering entrepreneurs like him who are turning this former merchant trading town into a booming manufacturing hub.
Pro-business
Kayseri is one of a handful of cities industrialising at an astonishing rate in Anatolia, Turkey`s central province and the country`s Islamic heartland.
Unlike the big urban centres of Ankara and Istanbul, the population is made up of devout, conservative Muslims.

Kayseri is a rising centre of entrepreneurial spirit
Restaurants rarely serve alcohol, unmarried men and women don`t mix on the streets, and there is little in the way of nightlife.
Yet the new entrepreneurialism sweeping across the province is providing an unlikely catalyst for a remarkable religious transformation.
A new form of Turkish Islam is emerging here, one which is pro-business and pro-free market, and it`s being called Islamic Calvinism.
Working hard
One of the first to use this description was the former mayor of Kayseri, Sukru Karatepe.
A softly-spoken man who taught sociology before entering politics, Karatape noticed striking similarities between the changes in Kayseri and the famous thesis of the German economist Max Weber, who argued that the strong work ethic of the Protestant movement gave birth to modern capitalism.

Sukru Karatepe coined the Islamic Calvinist phrase
``I had read Weber, who`d written about how Calvinists work hard, save money and then reinvest it into business,`` he says.
``To me, it seemed very similar to what was happening in Kayseri.
``People in Kayseri also don`t spend money unnecessarily. They work hard, they pride themselves on saving money. Then they invest it and make more money.
``In fact, in Kayseri, working hard is a form of worship. For them, religion is all about the here and now, not the next life. Making money is a sign of God`s approval, and this is also similar to what Weber said about the Calvinists.``
Modern Islam
It is a view echoed by Gerald Knaus, director of the think-tank European Stability Initiative, which recently published a report on the Islamic Calvinist phenomenon in Anatolia.
``Those doing business in Kayseri themselves argue that Islam encourages them to be entrepreneurial,`` he says.
``They quote passages from the Quran and from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad which read like a business manual. They tell me, it`s important to create factories, to create jobs - it`s what our religion tells us to do.``

Turks in Kayseri reconcile piety with economic success
The label of Islamic Calvinism, however, has caused a furore in the Turkish press.
Critics say it`s a Western conspiracy to Christianise Islam, but others have passionately argued in its favour, holding it up as a model for how Islam and modernity can co-exist.
One of its most prominent defenders has been Turkey`s Deputy Prime Minister, Abdullah Gul, himself a native of Kayseri and the son of an entrepreneur.
He sees no contradiction in the term and argues that Turkey can provide a lasting template for a new kind of modern Islam.
``The most important thing to ask,`` he says, ``is what kind of modernism do we want? Are you living in this world, or are you dreaming?
``The people in Kayseri are not dreaming - they are realistic, and that`s the kind of Islam we need.
``They go to the mosque, they lead pious lives, but at the same time they are very active economically.
``This is what modernism means to me, and this is why this new Turkey will ultimately be an asset to the European Union.``

and as for you, ms shah, i really think you should take life more seriously. if you were serious about what you wrote, you wouldnt be writing this article on the internet. you would be living in a cave somewhere, where even scrawling pictures on the wall would be considered ``modernity`` as opposed to the good old way of living the natural way.

as for Turkey - like many pakistanis, you seem to think that turkish history starts with ataturk. in fact, turkey`s (and the vast area covered by the ottoman empire) downfall had started in the 15th century because europe accelerated forward through the advent of the age of reason. This failure to modernize in the all-important socio-economic sphere translated in due course into political failure, starting perhaps in 1775 (the treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji with russia after turkey lost the first of several wars with russia). To this day, turks (like the rest of the muslim world) still dont get it: you can refuse to modernize in the socio-economic sphere, but you refuse at your own peril, since in due course you will be put in your rightful place - at the bottom of the list of human societies.

That is why sir syed is banging his head in heaven upon reading our article, as I mentioned earlier.

masadi: Maulana Hamidm has provided you with Qurnaic verses that you would do well to heed and end your mischievous ways.

For verily, the Lord is not fooled by hot-air balloons like thee, O depraved one.!!

The Lord, thy God, shall smite thee with bamboo cane and cast thee unto the seventh circle of Hell, wherein to dwell in misery for all eternity with scum like mullah maudoodi, general zia and other frauds like thou!! Repent thy evil ways before Allah takes note of thy mischief, O hot air balloon!!!

Re:masadi#49

[...So, if I want to escape the effects of such a system, I`d live inside to miniize the effects...]

What utter bakwaas!! This is total hypocrisy. Actions speak louder than words. The fact that you DO NOT practice what you preach, shows that you are an intellectually and morally dishonest hypocrite.

You live in the US, breed here, enjoy the good life, make money and then give sermons about how bad the US is. Shame on you for this level of moral bankruptcy!!

masadi doctorine is no different than Bush doctorine.

Bush Doctorine also says something similar ``We will fight them in their home rather than let them come here fight with us.`` :)

both are pre-emptive doctorines.:)

Re: # 49
Masadi. I understand that I am wrong in concluding Islam has failed everywhere. Could you please inform me where it has succeeded ?
Also, why you are not living there ? Also, how many non-Muslims immigrate (or apply for)
to this beautiful succeful model of Islam ?

I may not be knowing Islam or even my own Vedic dharma very well.... but I know evil when I
see it.

- wis0

PS: I am curious as to what I have done, that you have still not added me to your select band of damn fools.