Muslim Profanities
Kyla Pasha February 24, 2006
#53 Posted by khalid_ahmad on March 17, 2006 11:04:47 pm
Please sign this petition. Islamic fundamentalism epidemic has killed far too many people and gone on for a few centuries too many without decent humans doing something about it. Now is your chance. The next step will be for the UN to push all Islamic countries to legistlate these into their respective constitutions, or face sanctions.
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Like men, women should have the right to decide how they will live, dress, travel, marry and divorce; if they do not enjoy these rights, they are clearly second-class citizens.
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: All critiques of Islam should be countered not by threats and violence, but by rational counter-argument
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We strongly denounce anti-Semitism. We accept Israel`s right to exist.
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We accept the legitimacy of the secular state and the secular law. Islamic law, or sharia, was developed at a time when Muslims were living in homogenous communities. In the modern world, virtually all societies are pluralistic, consisting of different faiths and of different perceptions of each faith, including Islam. In this pluralistic setting, a legal system based on a particular version of a single religion cannot be imposed on all citizens.
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We support and cherish democracy — not because we reject the sovereignty of the Almighty over people, but because we believe that this sovereignty is manifested in the general will of people in a democratic and pluralistic society. We do not accept theocratic rule
MUSLIM MANIFESTO: we cherish religious liberty. Every human has the right to believe or not to believe in Islam or in any other religion All Muslims furthermore have the right to reject and change their religion if desired
Read the complete manifesto and sign the petition here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol_baran200603010816.asp
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#52 Posted by rmaa on March 10, 2006 1:29:43 pm
jay
You were pathetic in your last remarks just as you were when you started off and finally you had to run away with just a long description of the lecture you attended.
There was a long list of questions that you posted and were answered.
Nobody is a robot and no one asked you to believe in robotically. Instead you were asked to focus the fundamental questions first. If you don`t understand arithmatic you can not go on to prove theorems on quantum mechanics. Your jaundiced eye could not understand this much.
It was typical of you to focus at a particular thing and choose to ignore where you were answered or where you could not find it easy to retort.
Your poor manners of communication outlasted you.
Best Regards
You were pathetic in your last remarks just as you were when you started off and finally you had to run away with just a long description of the lecture you attended.
There was a long list of questions that you posted and were answered.
Nobody is a robot and no one asked you to believe in robotically. Instead you were asked to focus the fundamental questions first. If you don`t understand arithmatic you can not go on to prove theorems on quantum mechanics. Your jaundiced eye could not understand this much.
It was typical of you to focus at a particular thing and choose to ignore where you were answered or where you could not find it easy to retort.
Your poor manners of communication outlasted you.
Best Regards
#51 Posted by jay1 on March 10, 2006 12:17:15 pm
rmaaji....
Ido not believe it a guy like you does not know about the temples attacked by muslims in india in the recent past!
1 - Akshar Dham in Gandhinagar in gujarat..
2 - The attack in Varanasi only 3-4 days ago!
The devious cleric is none other than Mr.Nayak, who has developed many CD`s of his preachings.
He attacks all other religions in a devious way..saying their prophets / avatars were sent by god before Muhammad the last one, and that thus those earlier avatars have become defunct!!
``Holier than thou`` attittude needs no further demonstration.
He called that partricular seminar ``islam religion of peace, the solution of all solutions`` if i remember right.
Yet my muslim friends with whom i visited to listen, imploreed me NOT to say anything as it would have been dangerous for my safety!!
There were blood curdling cries of some ``takbir`` thing..i could not catch clearly, every time he ranted against another religion and ran it down.
The UAE minister of religion ``piously`` kept good cheer while all this ``indulgence`` was going on on their soil!!
Regarding your exhortation to first ``believe`` in Islam etc..i dont give a damn to any set of values where yoy are exhorted to believe first without questioning!
You guys may be robots! I am not.
Luckily Hinduism has six schools of thought, of which sankhya and vaisheshika clearly do not believe in any ``personal Hegemon of a God``, who ``punishes`` people in hell for ever after simply because they did not believe in him!
How low can a set of beliefs stoop to have power over people?
On one hand you say it is not forced on others, and in the same breath you ask people to believe first and question later!!
Despite all your rhetoric you are just exhaling stale hot air!
I am closing all arguments on this thread with this post.
you are most welcome to rant on...and provide entertainment to the remaining chaps!
best luck..
Jayen
Ido not believe it a guy like you does not know about the temples attacked by muslims in india in the recent past!
1 - Akshar Dham in Gandhinagar in gujarat..
2 - The attack in Varanasi only 3-4 days ago!
The devious cleric is none other than Mr.Nayak, who has developed many CD`s of his preachings.
He attacks all other religions in a devious way..saying their prophets / avatars were sent by god before Muhammad the last one, and that thus those earlier avatars have become defunct!!
``Holier than thou`` attittude needs no further demonstration.
He called that partricular seminar ``islam religion of peace, the solution of all solutions`` if i remember right.
Yet my muslim friends with whom i visited to listen, imploreed me NOT to say anything as it would have been dangerous for my safety!!
There were blood curdling cries of some ``takbir`` thing..i could not catch clearly, every time he ranted against another religion and ran it down.
The UAE minister of religion ``piously`` kept good cheer while all this ``indulgence`` was going on on their soil!!
Regarding your exhortation to first ``believe`` in Islam etc..i dont give a damn to any set of values where yoy are exhorted to believe first without questioning!
You guys may be robots! I am not.
Luckily Hinduism has six schools of thought, of which sankhya and vaisheshika clearly do not believe in any ``personal Hegemon of a God``, who ``punishes`` people in hell for ever after simply because they did not believe in him!
How low can a set of beliefs stoop to have power over people?
On one hand you say it is not forced on others, and in the same breath you ask people to believe first and question later!!
Despite all your rhetoric you are just exhaling stale hot air!
I am closing all arguments on this thread with this post.
you are most welcome to rant on...and provide entertainment to the remaining chaps!
best luck..
Jayen
#50 Posted by rmaa on March 8, 2006 1:42:23 pm
o ) let me explain the Jaziya tax on non Muslims.
Muslims pay zakaat that a non muslim is not obliged to pay in a Muslim state.
As far as this jazia is concerned, that is not payable by just any country who is not following Islam. During all the wars that Prophet fought, he was retaliating to the threats or invading attempts to the Holy city of Madina. It was only in response to that when he did fight back and the invaders were conquered, that they were given three conditions:
- 1 Accept Islam and be our brothers
- 2 Pay jazia and we shall be responsible for your safety
- 3 Get ready to cross the swords
Whereas he (Peace Be Upon Him) had several agreements with Jews as well as the people of Mecca (who were his sworn enemies and who ultimately succumbed as well) and as they were peace time agreements, no party had to pay any jazia. This is because, Islam exhorts to live in peace and harmony with those who do not trouble the Muslims.
Jazia only becomes applicable as a result of war that is forced upon the Muslims.
Even after that Jazia is all the tax that the non muslims have to pay. There is no income tax and sales tax and blah tax and blah tax as far as Islam goes. these are all only the side effects of the current economic models.
o ) The segregation of the believer and non believer stems from the firm belief in our religion again. It does not incite hostility towards others unless but is essential towards installing a system of islamic values, to present an Islamic model to the world that it is a model code of conduct. This is another thing, that there is not a single country in the world that demonstrates islam in its entirety. Most of them are monarchies, which are not allowed in Islam anyway. At other places, there are only subsets of the religion in action just coz it suites the politician.
There are several organizations in the world that, despite not saying so explicitly are religion based. NATO and EU will disagree with it totally but why do they oppose Turkey`s inclusion? They openly state it that it is coz of Islam. So religion is the reason. EU is all comprised of christian countries. It is religious segregation.
o ) Yes. Not believing in Allah and the Prophet peace be upon him`s finality is the fundamental difference between Islam and other beliefs. It is central to it and there is no denial of the fact. It`s consequences are serious. However, since no mortal is to make the decision about the fate in the hereafter, it is not my concern. I do not think non believers should be told so because what is the point offending anyone. I would still like to know the details of that cleric`s case but I myself would not consider it among the likable manners of preaching.
o ) Muslim kashmir would like to do what it chooses to do. We will need to dig back to the independence rulings, the historical details and all that. In any case, it is best left for them to decide. If you want to discuss it, better open another thread and just start on with an endless debate there.
o ) I am not aware of the details of these temples. However, if they have been destroyed, my deepest sympathies are with those who are affected. i detest the killings of innocent people and the places of worship are to be honoured.
#49 Posted by rmaa on March 8, 2006 1:14:17 pm
and i thought so too that this thread was finished but guess it never will be. I just happened to visit this page by chance.
Just like you accuse others not reading your messages, you are doing PRECISELY THE SAME.
O baba, Since you consider other FUNDAMENTAL beliefs as mere imaginations, how do you consider yourself able enough AT ALL to gauge what are the consequences of not following the belief?
Condemning PERFECTLY GOOD KAAFIRS. O come on MR JAY calling for others to see from the IRRELIGIOUS eyes i brought your hardly opening eyes to the basic cause of concern.
There are these two IRREPLACABLE beliefs:
1:- There is no God but Allah and Prophet Peace be upon him is his messenger.
2:- Quran is the word of The Lord and it was revealed to give a complete code of life.
Not believing in Allah is called the EXCESS of the highest degree in Islam. So how can someone hypocritically say ke no, believe in whatever you do and it is a perfectly fine belief.
O baba (i am now talking in your style), we do not believe that Islam is someone`s imagination as you do. So stop talking about the itsy bitsies, quoting a particular person here and particular person there. I invitied you to study it if you want to at least hold an EDUCATED discussion about it.
As far as this world goes, YES, Quran clearly states not to indulge in war or inflict harm upon those who do not harm you. In other words, it is not my business that what happens to you in the hereafter. As long as you remain calm and civilized in your so called SECULAR rule (LOL, my foot, since when hinduism has become synonymous with secularism), yes i damn care what happens to you in the hereafter. I do not know who this cleric is that u r talking about and why he had to open his mouth wide open like that when he could have avoided that. Hereafter is afterall neither in my control nor yours, so why are you so incited about it? Afterall that`s why you looked down upon and ridiculed them by calling `muslay` just because you believed that they do not worship all that large family of Gods that you believe in.
O baba, go study the basics of Islam. If you have problem with the basic tenets, you have problem with everything. If you understand the basics, then you will be better decypher at least between bad practices and bad teachings. Otherwise you are only wasting your time as well as others.
Just like you accuse others not reading your messages, you are doing PRECISELY THE SAME.
O baba, Since you consider other FUNDAMENTAL beliefs as mere imaginations, how do you consider yourself able enough AT ALL to gauge what are the consequences of not following the belief?
Condemning PERFECTLY GOOD KAAFIRS. O come on MR JAY calling for others to see from the IRRELIGIOUS eyes i brought your hardly opening eyes to the basic cause of concern.
There are these two IRREPLACABLE beliefs:
1:- There is no God but Allah and Prophet Peace be upon him is his messenger.
2:- Quran is the word of The Lord and it was revealed to give a complete code of life.
Not believing in Allah is called the EXCESS of the highest degree in Islam. So how can someone hypocritically say ke no, believe in whatever you do and it is a perfectly fine belief.
O baba (i am now talking in your style), we do not believe that Islam is someone`s imagination as you do. So stop talking about the itsy bitsies, quoting a particular person here and particular person there. I invitied you to study it if you want to at least hold an EDUCATED discussion about it.
As far as this world goes, YES, Quran clearly states not to indulge in war or inflict harm upon those who do not harm you. In other words, it is not my business that what happens to you in the hereafter. As long as you remain calm and civilized in your so called SECULAR rule (LOL, my foot, since when hinduism has become synonymous with secularism), yes i damn care what happens to you in the hereafter. I do not know who this cleric is that u r talking about and why he had to open his mouth wide open like that when he could have avoided that. Hereafter is afterall neither in my control nor yours, so why are you so incited about it? Afterall that`s why you looked down upon and ridiculed them by calling `muslay` just because you believed that they do not worship all that large family of Gods that you believe in.
O baba, go study the basics of Islam. If you have problem with the basic tenets, you have problem with everything. If you understand the basics, then you will be better decypher at least between bad practices and bad teachings. Otherwise you are only wasting your time as well as others.
#48 Posted by jay1 on March 7, 2006 12:54:52 am
#47..
And i thought i had closed operations for this thread...
Remove your blinkers and stop quoting the bible!
1 - How do you explain the attacks on Akshar-Dham in gujarat? The Durgiana temple attack,
and another attack on a temple somewhere in central india (i already forget the
details..)?
2 - How do you ``support`` the religious injunctions of imosing the ``jaziya`` tax on non
muslims?
3 - How do you support the ``seggregation`` (you guys tom tom the caste system so much)
of the world along ``believer`` / ``non-believers`` ?
4 - How do you support the belief that all ``non-believers`` unconditionally go to hell (even if
they are otherwise perfectly good and honorable people?)
5 - Why cant muslim kashmir (only the valley mind you) NOT live peacefully under secular
non muslim rule?
Bhai-sa`b you are so transparently ``biased, it takes little effort touncloak yoy.
In effect you are trelling all the above is completely ok simply because ``muslims`` perpetrated them?
Jayen
And i thought i had closed operations for this thread...
Remove your blinkers and stop quoting the bible!
1 - How do you explain the attacks on Akshar-Dham in gujarat? The Durgiana temple attack,
and another attack on a temple somewhere in central india (i already forget the
details..)?
2 - How do you ``support`` the religious injunctions of imosing the ``jaziya`` tax on non
muslims?
3 - How do you support the ``seggregation`` (you guys tom tom the caste system so much)
of the world along ``believer`` / ``non-believers`` ?
4 - How do you support the belief that all ``non-believers`` unconditionally go to hell (even if
they are otherwise perfectly good and honorable people?)
5 - Why cant muslim kashmir (only the valley mind you) NOT live peacefully under secular
non muslim rule?
Bhai-sa`b you are so transparently ``biased, it takes little effort touncloak yoy.
In effect you are trelling all the above is completely ok simply because ``muslims`` perpetrated them?
Jayen
#47 Posted by indikad75 on March 6, 2006 11:40:29 am
Re: # 7
And you got it all wrong. Your version of history is what the sangh parivar feeds u on. Read proper history books and these notions will be cleared. NO denying the fact that there were temples demolished. But it wasnt to insult Hindus. Temples were symbols of authority derived by lots of rulers. They were demolished to attack the authority and sovereignty of the rulers. Lets not be selective in such critisicm. We have so many instances of Hindu rulers destroying temples in Kashmir (read the some real History- read the Rajtarangini of Kalhana). We have many instances of Hindu rulers who destroyed Jaina and Buddhist temples in Andhra Pradesh.
Muslims around the world condemned the destruction of Bamiyan buddhas. Most of it was in the Urdu press which i have seen so quite naturally which u havent.. why doesnmt the English media report it? Welll u need to ask them.
And you got it all wrong. Your version of history is what the sangh parivar feeds u on. Read proper history books and these notions will be cleared. NO denying the fact that there were temples demolished. But it wasnt to insult Hindus. Temples were symbols of authority derived by lots of rulers. They were demolished to attack the authority and sovereignty of the rulers. Lets not be selective in such critisicm. We have so many instances of Hindu rulers destroying temples in Kashmir (read the some real History- read the Rajtarangini of Kalhana). We have many instances of Hindu rulers who destroyed Jaina and Buddhist temples in Andhra Pradesh.
Muslims around the world condemned the destruction of Bamiyan buddhas. Most of it was in the Urdu press which i have seen so quite naturally which u havent.. why doesnmt the English media report it? Welll u need to ask them.
#46 Posted by jay1 on March 5, 2006 8:37:52 am
Hi Mehnazji,
Chalo i am thinking there has been enough of sword crossing!
At least on this topic.
Kylaji must be tittering at how much ``debate`` her article has provoked.
Mehnazji, I have to give you credit for voicing your thoughts on this ``mainly boys only`` place!
Keep it up, invite more lady friends to interact.
Dekhein to sahi, ki ladies from pakistan (you are a mixed case..i suspect an indian connection somewhere..), kitna aur kya likhtee hai?
bye and good luck
Same to you rmaaji!
Thode ``irreligious bano!
You will find jannat ``idhar hi hai``!
(relax just joking...to each his views..but nothing like severe intellectual fencing!)
Right!
Jayen
Chalo i am thinking there has been enough of sword crossing!
At least on this topic.
Kylaji must be tittering at how much ``debate`` her article has provoked.
Mehnazji, I have to give you credit for voicing your thoughts on this ``mainly boys only`` place!
Keep it up, invite more lady friends to interact.
Dekhein to sahi, ki ladies from pakistan (you are a mixed case..i suspect an indian connection somewhere..), kitna aur kya likhtee hai?
bye and good luck
Same to you rmaaji!
Thode ``irreligious bano!
You will find jannat ``idhar hi hai``!
(relax just joking...to each his views..but nothing like severe intellectual fencing!)
Right!
Jayen
#45 Posted by jay1 on March 5, 2006 5:40:19 am
#43, 44..SORRY rmaa..ladies first..!
Mehnazji..dont get carried away baba..
where did i remotely refer to any jahils coming with nadir shah?
here are my lines..
>The massacres by Nadir shah in delhi, by abdali in agra etc are well documented ..
>JUST READ!
It appears you DID NOT ``READ`` after all!
And perhaps you mean ``yes! Nadirji was a jahil and he alone perpetrated the massacre``..
Possible..may be like ``jalal e akbari`` he had a ``jala a nadiri``..:)
And again you are either purposely ignoring to READ or trying to go ``head in sand`` as most of you do..
I have explicitly said ``these religions have between them killed more people than all eastern religions combined!! (jehads, crusades, daily secarian killings in pakistan) ..but you WONT mention that...will you?
(oh yes that ``lovely`` massacre in gujarat will be quoted a 1000 times with care..but you will forget all other massacres that went before that and created the background for gujarat to happen, in the first place!)
Yes hindus have god of destruction...NOT THE ONE YOU ARE THINKING..shiva represents the destruction that happens in nature, without which creation is NOT possible. like people dying...plain and simple. without death, life will be a hell! imagine the earh groaning under the burden of people like you and me living for ever!
But subtelities escape people like you..kya karein?
Yes now rmaaji aap ki bari..
What is the use of a religion that condemns all ``kafirs`` to hell? (even perfectly good ones?)
It is this type of ``exclusivism`` (worse than caste system actually) and this ``unquestioning slavishness`` that lends ready ``martyrs`` to the jehadi camps!
It is very easy to find jehadis..just scratch the surface and they are there!
No wonder the americans check and re-check EVERY MUSLIM entering their land..
After Singapore and Britain..who knows who will be the next hidden sympathiser?
[in Singapore a perfectly ``decent`` ``family`` man turned out to be the mastermind behind the plot to bomb the singapore underground, and for what, because the singapore government was pro us..jaise bete ke bap ki foreign policy hai!!, and in Britain, same story!! Next it was the looting and burning in France..by the ``religion of peace wallahs! ``repeat story]
PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES....try to look at the world thru an ``irreligious`` vision if you can..
Varna it is well known adage..
Vinasha kale vipareet buddhi..
Before the downfall comes ``wrong thinking`` a la west pakistan before 1971!!
jayen
Mehnazji..dont get carried away baba..
where did i remotely refer to any jahils coming with nadir shah?
here are my lines..
>The massacres by Nadir shah in delhi, by abdali in agra etc are well documented ..
>JUST READ!
It appears you DID NOT ``READ`` after all!
And perhaps you mean ``yes! Nadirji was a jahil and he alone perpetrated the massacre``..
Possible..may be like ``jalal e akbari`` he had a ``jala a nadiri``..:)
And again you are either purposely ignoring to READ or trying to go ``head in sand`` as most of you do..
I have explicitly said ``these religions have between them killed more people than all eastern religions combined!! (jehads, crusades, daily secarian killings in pakistan) ..but you WONT mention that...will you?
(oh yes that ``lovely`` massacre in gujarat will be quoted a 1000 times with care..but you will forget all other massacres that went before that and created the background for gujarat to happen, in the first place!)
Yes hindus have god of destruction...NOT THE ONE YOU ARE THINKING..shiva represents the destruction that happens in nature, without which creation is NOT possible. like people dying...plain and simple. without death, life will be a hell! imagine the earh groaning under the burden of people like you and me living for ever!
But subtelities escape people like you..kya karein?
Yes now rmaaji aap ki bari..
What is the use of a religion that condemns all ``kafirs`` to hell? (even perfectly good ones?)
It is this type of ``exclusivism`` (worse than caste system actually) and this ``unquestioning slavishness`` that lends ready ``martyrs`` to the jehadi camps!
It is very easy to find jehadis..just scratch the surface and they are there!
No wonder the americans check and re-check EVERY MUSLIM entering their land..
After Singapore and Britain..who knows who will be the next hidden sympathiser?
[in Singapore a perfectly ``decent`` ``family`` man turned out to be the mastermind behind the plot to bomb the singapore underground, and for what, because the singapore government was pro us..jaise bete ke bap ki foreign policy hai!!, and in Britain, same story!! Next it was the looting and burning in France..by the ``religion of peace wallahs! ``repeat story]
PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES....try to look at the world thru an ``irreligious`` vision if you can..
Varna it is well known adage..
Vinasha kale vipareet buddhi..
Before the downfall comes ``wrong thinking`` a la west pakistan before 1971!!
jayen
#44 Posted by mehnazhyder on March 4, 2006 1:27:47 pm
p.s. the people who came with Nadir Shah were not jahil.
#43 Posted by mehnazhyder on March 4, 2006 1:24:46 pm
Kaalchakra: Well Id be delighted to interact further on these issues. I guess it might be surprising that a person like me could hold these views. However, my being born here should not exempt me from recognizing perfection, seeing the truth, and striving for justice. The sentiment of justice should know no ethnic or religious boundaries.
Jayen: Im not sure I get what you`re so upset about. It was pretty hard to decipher your post, but the gist of what youre saying, Im guessing is that Hinduism is a free and unimposing religion and that you view the Abrahamic faiths as agreesive and with an admonishing patriarchal God.
Im not familiar with all those rig vedas you were talking about or the 5 M`s but I do know that there are patriarchal dieties within Hinduism too. Isnt Shiva the Great Destroyer? Just like there can be no harmony without the elements of a Brahma, a Shiva, and a Vishnu...there must be a punitive element in the Monotheistic God of Abraham.
Anyways, you should not demand that all other belief systems in the world be as liberal and unstructured as yours. It works for India, may not work for everybody else.
But you shouldnt blame God for the fallacies of people. Its God who is divine and the people only human, after all. Anyways, Im sure you dont want to hear all that.
I dont know why you think my ego is attached to my religion. Im not the one parading my ego here.
You`re a lil confused about the issures here. As far as ``religious policing``, well yes we have laws. So do you. If Im not mistaken, my touching your food is supposed to make it ashud or something.
And what does Nadir Shah have to do with an Islamic movement? He was a persian, and what he did was in the name of Persia. Its not like India where Bharat and Hindu dharm are basically 2 faces of the same thing. Nadir Shah didnt do anything ordained specifically by Islam. It was a conquest just like any other conquest, Genghis Khan or Alexander.
Anyways, its funny, the anger in your post makes you sound a like a Wahabbi (and i know you hate that). So just might wanna cut back on that a little. You should chill. Like maybe reset your Chi or something.
Jayen: Im not sure I get what you`re so upset about. It was pretty hard to decipher your post, but the gist of what youre saying, Im guessing is that Hinduism is a free and unimposing religion and that you view the Abrahamic faiths as agreesive and with an admonishing patriarchal God.
Im not familiar with all those rig vedas you were talking about or the 5 M`s but I do know that there are patriarchal dieties within Hinduism too. Isnt Shiva the Great Destroyer? Just like there can be no harmony without the elements of a Brahma, a Shiva, and a Vishnu...there must be a punitive element in the Monotheistic God of Abraham.
Anyways, you should not demand that all other belief systems in the world be as liberal and unstructured as yours. It works for India, may not work for everybody else.
But you shouldnt blame God for the fallacies of people. Its God who is divine and the people only human, after all. Anyways, Im sure you dont want to hear all that.
I dont know why you think my ego is attached to my religion. Im not the one parading my ego here.
You`re a lil confused about the issures here. As far as ``religious policing``, well yes we have laws. So do you. If Im not mistaken, my touching your food is supposed to make it ashud or something.
And what does Nadir Shah have to do with an Islamic movement? He was a persian, and what he did was in the name of Persia. Its not like India where Bharat and Hindu dharm are basically 2 faces of the same thing. Nadir Shah didnt do anything ordained specifically by Islam. It was a conquest just like any other conquest, Genghis Khan or Alexander.
Anyways, its funny, the anger in your post makes you sound a like a Wahabbi (and i know you hate that). So just might wanna cut back on that a little. You should chill. Like maybe reset your Chi or something.
#42 Posted by rmaa on March 4, 2006 12:46:12 pm
Kaalchakra
May be you are right and may be wrong. I had to show the path. its upto the individual to take it or leave it.
May be you are right and may be wrong. I had to show the path. its upto the individual to take it or leave it.
#41 Posted by KaalChakra on March 4, 2006 8:08:57 am
rmaa
Nobody is going to solve the issue of Islam here. Let`s take that up at another time. :)
Jayen
Will Time sing the same sad song It has time and again? Not necessarily. Historical cycles may be more complex than we think.
Blind faith does possess the few great strengths you mentioned. So in early days, it sees temporary and rapid success. But far greater and more numerous than its strengths are its fundamental weaknesses. If others learn the lessons Time has so generously taught them, and meet their full obligation to protect their interests everywhere, blind force will inevitably self-destruct.
Nobody is going to solve the issue of Islam here. Let`s take that up at another time. :)
Jayen
Will Time sing the same sad song It has time and again? Not necessarily. Historical cycles may be more complex than we think.
Blind faith does possess the few great strengths you mentioned. So in early days, it sees temporary and rapid success. But far greater and more numerous than its strengths are its fundamental weaknesses. If others learn the lessons Time has so generously taught them, and meet their full obligation to protect their interests everywhere, blind force will inevitably self-destruct.
#40 Posted by rmaa on March 4, 2006 5:07:01 am
You have raised so many points that it will be difficult to address all of them together. But let`s try to get some basic facts across.
I think the first and foremost is that you should acquaint yourself with the fundamentals. Islam is based on the following:
1:- There is no God but Allah and Prophet Peace be upon him is his messenger.
2:- Quran is the word of The Lord and it was revealed to give a complete code of life.
Now if you are in denial of these facts, then you merely consider Islam as an agglomeration of someone`s imagination. With this mindset, no one can believe that a person can have ideas so far reaching that they will work 1400 years afterwards. Not you, not me and not anyone else would believe it UNLESS there is a unanimity of views on the first two points. There is no point explaining to you that despite the caste system, we have the same place of worship where no priorities are set for anyone and the king and his servant should stand in the same line.
As the main difference is about the divine source of facts 1 and 2, in comes the concept of reforms, rethinking and all that. Since you are stubbornly re-iterating that a religion can not be separated from its believers, you only know as much about the religion as you see. Funny, that indirectly a non-believer is telling the Muslims to adhere to their teachings. A non-believer, whose only source of inspiration is an ever changing science and who can not distinguish between `modern` thought and `quality` thought is not expected to spend his time understanding Islam in its essence.
I would, therefore, call upon the Muslims that it is high time that we demonstrate the true model of Islam. Our teachings are precise and clear to the little details of life. In the words if Iqbal,
Wo Zamanay main Muazzaz thay Musalmaan ho kar
Aur tum khwaar hooye tarak-e-Quraan ho kar
In other words, the rise and fall of the Muslims is strongly correlated with the strength of their faiths. They gained strength from their faith but after their rise when they started neglecting their duties, it led to corruption among them and finally their downfall.
This is the real deal. There is no point reminding anyone of the condemnation that US has received for the mess it has created in Iraq particularly and in Afghanistan as well and the after effects it has had. That the chaos in Iraq was forewarned and predicted and better alternatives were proposed. It went ahead bypassing UN completely. Ireland in particular totally despises the use of their airports for any US purpose.
As far as Mr Jay goes, your own country men Maulana Shibli Nomaani and Syed Suleman Nadwi wrote one of the best narrations of Prophet`s ( peace be upon him ) life to address many things. The title is `Seerat-un-Nabi (peace be upon him). I do not expect you to read it as obviously no one is interested in another religion to that much detail as i pointed out earlier on. But, just in case you ever feel like, I think it is a well researched, reviewed and hence, refined writing.
I think the first and foremost is that you should acquaint yourself with the fundamentals. Islam is based on the following:
1:- There is no God but Allah and Prophet Peace be upon him is his messenger.
2:- Quran is the word of The Lord and it was revealed to give a complete code of life.
Now if you are in denial of these facts, then you merely consider Islam as an agglomeration of someone`s imagination. With this mindset, no one can believe that a person can have ideas so far reaching that they will work 1400 years afterwards. Not you, not me and not anyone else would believe it UNLESS there is a unanimity of views on the first two points. There is no point explaining to you that despite the caste system, we have the same place of worship where no priorities are set for anyone and the king and his servant should stand in the same line.
As the main difference is about the divine source of facts 1 and 2, in comes the concept of reforms, rethinking and all that. Since you are stubbornly re-iterating that a religion can not be separated from its believers, you only know as much about the religion as you see. Funny, that indirectly a non-believer is telling the Muslims to adhere to their teachings. A non-believer, whose only source of inspiration is an ever changing science and who can not distinguish between `modern` thought and `quality` thought is not expected to spend his time understanding Islam in its essence.
I would, therefore, call upon the Muslims that it is high time that we demonstrate the true model of Islam. Our teachings are precise and clear to the little details of life. In the words if Iqbal,
Wo Zamanay main Muazzaz thay Musalmaan ho kar
Aur tum khwaar hooye tarak-e-Quraan ho kar
In other words, the rise and fall of the Muslims is strongly correlated with the strength of their faiths. They gained strength from their faith but after their rise when they started neglecting their duties, it led to corruption among them and finally their downfall.
This is the real deal. There is no point reminding anyone of the condemnation that US has received for the mess it has created in Iraq particularly and in Afghanistan as well and the after effects it has had. That the chaos in Iraq was forewarned and predicted and better alternatives were proposed. It went ahead bypassing UN completely. Ireland in particular totally despises the use of their airports for any US purpose.
As far as Mr Jay goes, your own country men Maulana Shibli Nomaani and Syed Suleman Nadwi wrote one of the best narrations of Prophet`s ( peace be upon him ) life to address many things. The title is `Seerat-un-Nabi (peace be upon him). I do not expect you to read it as obviously no one is interested in another religion to that much detail as i pointed out earlier on. But, just in case you ever feel like, I think it is a well researched, reviewed and hence, refined writing.
#39 Posted by jay1 on March 4, 2006 1:24:09 am
37..kaalchakra..
There is a strange anti-science movement going on in the US nowadays, which is frightening.
I hear people are demanding ``creationism`` to be taught in science stream there!
That would be a pity!
Often civilisations at the pinnacle of power, sow the seeds of their own destruction.
they do this in an arrogant sort of way and often foolishly.
The hindus did this god knows how many 1000 years ago, when they parted ways with science, ARROGANTLY, and quite POMPOUSLY laying claim to ``higher`` knowledge which was always elitist and hidden, and which in the end led to their downfall to the ``usual barbarians at the gates``...
The cycle repeats itself..only the barbarians and the falling parties are new each time!
The current barbarians are...well need i say THAT in so many words?
The BUSH DOCTRINE says it all..
the battle lines are already drawn...
we know the barbarians always prevail..
as THEY are the ones with ``FAITH`` and ``NOT LOGIC`` on their side.
Till over time they too become arrogant and soft to be replaced by a future wave of new ``full of faith`` barbarians!!
The wheel turns once again..
you shoulf know!
you represent the kaal-chakra or wheel of time.
Jayen
There is a strange anti-science movement going on in the US nowadays, which is frightening.
I hear people are demanding ``creationism`` to be taught in science stream there!
That would be a pity!
Often civilisations at the pinnacle of power, sow the seeds of their own destruction.
they do this in an arrogant sort of way and often foolishly.
The hindus did this god knows how many 1000 years ago, when they parted ways with science, ARROGANTLY, and quite POMPOUSLY laying claim to ``higher`` knowledge which was always elitist and hidden, and which in the end led to their downfall to the ``usual barbarians at the gates``...
The cycle repeats itself..only the barbarians and the falling parties are new each time!
The current barbarians are...well need i say THAT in so many words?
The BUSH DOCTRINE says it all..
the battle lines are already drawn...
we know the barbarians always prevail..
as THEY are the ones with ``FAITH`` and ``NOT LOGIC`` on their side.
Till over time they too become arrogant and soft to be replaced by a future wave of new ``full of faith`` barbarians!!
The wheel turns once again..
you shoulf know!
you represent the kaal-chakra or wheel of time.
Jayen
#38 Posted by jay1 on March 4, 2006 1:12:03 am
#34..
mehenaz..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Islam, in my eyes, cannot be wrong, therefore these unjust movements are wrong and deceitfully operate under the banner of Islam for their own agendas.
Therefore, it is not reform which is necessary, but simply a more intellectually honest ??adherence to the true Islam......you know, the one with no caste system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dont you ``think`` (faith is blind so the emphasis on think) ..that no religious reform is possible unless you begin to question?
Even your own religion?
Ram mohan roy and dayanand sdaraswati were successful because hindus dont have rigid ``religious policing`` as in the muslim world, or the christian world.
[i am not saying that is great, it is just a statement of fact! the drawback was the slide into the ``tantra`` marga with its 5 dreaded ``m``s ..madya (wine), mauns (meat), mudra (signs), and the other two i will leave out as inappropriate to discuss with you]
The hindus have been open for millennia..
In the riga veda you have the hiranya garbha sukta saying ...
``IT`` existed before the gods came into being, it existed when there was neither light nor day
nor light nor darkness, nor life nor death as all these dualities depend one upon the other for survival.
what shall we call it, how shall we worship it?
This was the vedic ``hiranya-garbha`` or the cosmic golden egg!
The vedics saw it as a genderless superbeing of all beings, not as some silliy patrarchal god with a staff in hand threatening people with retribution in the usual zamindari ``or else`` style.
The problem (acknowledged by scholars no less) is that in the one bible (book) one prophet one god religions, there has been an excess of policing and purges.
The spanish inquisition...the crusades, the on going jehad..these two religions have together killed more people than all other eastern religions put together.
THINK ABOUT THAT!
Do not couple your ego with your religion..if you do that , you will throw up allsorts of illoogical ``from the heart`` defenses as you did (cut pasted above).
The truth is ..and this needs to be repeated ad nauseum..
These religions need to rethink their world-view and shed their ``exclusivism``.
I know of a muslim cleric in bombay ..a DAWA fellow proudly proclaiming in the UAE..all hindus willg oto hell even the good ones..simply because they dont offer namaz 5 times as day!! AND THIS WITH THE MINISTER FROM THE STATE IN ATTENDANCE!
Wow!
The massacres by Nadir shah in delhi, by abdali in agra etc are well documented ..
JUST READ!
And these are official pakistani heroes...
Oh but you can always slip away using that veil...``ye to jahil log hain..islam aisa nahi hai!!
The stark hypocrisy of it all makes me sick!
Jayen
mehenaz..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Islam, in my eyes, cannot be wrong, therefore these unjust movements are wrong and deceitfully operate under the banner of Islam for their own agendas.
Therefore, it is not reform which is necessary, but simply a more intellectually honest ??adherence to the true Islam......you know, the one with no caste system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dont you ``think`` (faith is blind so the emphasis on think) ..that no religious reform is possible unless you begin to question?
Even your own religion?
Ram mohan roy and dayanand sdaraswati were successful because hindus dont have rigid ``religious policing`` as in the muslim world, or the christian world.
[i am not saying that is great, it is just a statement of fact! the drawback was the slide into the ``tantra`` marga with its 5 dreaded ``m``s ..madya (wine), mauns (meat), mudra (signs), and the other two i will leave out as inappropriate to discuss with you]
The hindus have been open for millennia..
In the riga veda you have the hiranya garbha sukta saying ...
``IT`` existed before the gods came into being, it existed when there was neither light nor day
nor light nor darkness, nor life nor death as all these dualities depend one upon the other for survival.
what shall we call it, how shall we worship it?
This was the vedic ``hiranya-garbha`` or the cosmic golden egg!
The vedics saw it as a genderless superbeing of all beings, not as some silliy patrarchal god with a staff in hand threatening people with retribution in the usual zamindari ``or else`` style.
The problem (acknowledged by scholars no less) is that in the one bible (book) one prophet one god religions, there has been an excess of policing and purges.
The spanish inquisition...the crusades, the on going jehad..these two religions have together killed more people than all other eastern religions put together.
THINK ABOUT THAT!
Do not couple your ego with your religion..if you do that , you will throw up allsorts of illoogical ``from the heart`` defenses as you did (cut pasted above).
The truth is ..and this needs to be repeated ad nauseum..
These religions need to rethink their world-view and shed their ``exclusivism``.
I know of a muslim cleric in bombay ..a DAWA fellow proudly proclaiming in the UAE..all hindus willg oto hell even the good ones..simply because they dont offer namaz 5 times as day!! AND THIS WITH THE MINISTER FROM THE STATE IN ATTENDANCE!
Wow!
The massacres by Nadir shah in delhi, by abdali in agra etc are well documented ..
JUST READ!
And these are official pakistani heroes...
Oh but you can always slip away using that veil...``ye to jahil log hain..islam aisa nahi hai!!
The stark hypocrisy of it all makes me sick!
Jayen
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