In the Dying Light

#113

(Note: Versey is trying to impress everyone with long post of conversation she personally witnessed from somebody named Albert Einstein (and I always thought Einstein was a made-up cartoon character on one of the Saturday funnies) all of which only proves that he was a good debater and could whip (debate-wise) his professors`s behind any time and out-talk him (and clearly this Einstein never met Manto - or he would be still trying to defend the Special Theory of Relativity from grave - and to establish that it was him and not Jinnah who envisaged the original theory.))

Personally, as this discussion ``evolves``, I wish I could just get away from it all and sit cross-legged on those ghat steps, shutting vision to everything. But many here seem to have already accomplished that feat (the shutting off of vision part), without undergoing the intermediate steps.

Closely and resolutely followed by those who have accomplished the even more acrobatic feat of shutting off of the reality part!

PS:

[Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don`t have any thing called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat,]

The actual number is 459.67 (assuming he was talking Fahrenheits). And it is not ``hittable`` because of well-known laws of Physics!

In conclusion, EINSTEIN never said those words - unless we are talking of the made-up character!

Re: # 111

Ramanujam:

Please do not use lables like left or right. These are relics of cold war, are outdated and mean little in the knowledge and global economic society. Where the advantage comes not from the machinery or oil, but from intellectual capital. The Wall Street, Detriot, Silicon Valley, and even world class educational institutions and research centers of excellence will not be located in one place, as physical location will not limit the access to what they impart. One could be in Bangalore to get Stanford education, or in Silicon Valley to get IIM-Bangalore education. Intellectual capital and its application and benefits can be delivered from anywhere to anywhere. National boundaries are meaningless, therefore the capitalism will get redefined, however it fundamentals - jobs, capital and profits will remain still be the fundation.

Also, neither there is, nor there would ever be french court where people on the left side of the king could be called leftists, and on the right side could be called the rightists. The sooner we get over this left - right nosense the better it is to grow.

I would even go onto say that religion beyond one`s mind space would have very little impact. Once rest of the world is done with defeating Islamic fundamentalism, as I believe it will, the period that will follow, unlike the crusaders, will not replace it with another form of religious fundamentalism. When you study fundamentalism closely, you will notice, whether it is of Christianity, Hindutva, or Islamic kind, that fundamentalism is regressive in nature which in the past thrieved in naturally isolated communities and on delivering heavily modulated messages to convert others. This task was done in tandem by military and missionaries, monks, and mullahs.

As we move from today into future, we enter into a period of naturally open communication, and visualization of live images and video. These are completely opposite to the fertile grounds of fundamentalism. Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.

Terrorism has no label. It is not leftist or rightist. One can no longer define what is leftist or rightist. Now a days, it is a mere propoganda for politicians to fool certain types of people to gain following. This propaganda has fooled you; or may be you truly have a definition of the leftist and the rightist for the modern times. In case of the latter, I would certainly love to know and learn more, I always learn new things. I probably know, understand, believe and practicw capitalism more than you.

Best regards,

Anil Kapuria

Re: #114 by anil

[In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements.]

What, are you JUMPING TO THE CONCLUSION that muslims are responsible? What a bigot! How dare you profile a peaceful community! Everyone is equally suspect. Okay? Could have been a Gurkha with marital problems. Could have been a Tibetan monk refugee upset with the Indian government. Could have been the Dalai Lama! Okay? What would Sherlock have said? Huh? EVERYONE is suspect, ALLRIGHT? How do you know that RSS/VHP/BJP/RAW was not involved? Huh! WHO stand to gain most from this, eh? The Hindoos, of course! This is why they keep setting fire to themselves in trains and blowing themselves up REPEATEDLY!

I`m COMPLETELY surprised! What a closet-hindutva freak!

Racist! Casteist! Bride-burning foetus-killing hindoooo!!!

I`ll leave the rest to the regulars...

Re: # 104

BJ:

Please don`t forget India is a open and participative democracy. Forces which exclude or hurt certain segments of the pupulation will get isolated, as their methods and objectives become divergent from the rest in open society. I understand differences between terrorism and law and order.

To solve terrorism, India must involve all comnunity finger and not finger point a community and stereo type it. In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements. You jumped into us and single out they quite easily. This is wrong. There is no us or they as community all get affected. Only terrorists trying to make a point by attacking Sankat Mochan Temple, dedicated to Human on Tuesday, his day; or Delhi attack on Diwali, or attack on Parliament. There can only be zero tolerance on India`s part.

Without the community suppport, in open society with a lack of infrastructure, Indian police, military etc. will ineffective, as Pakistanis were in Bangladesh. I watched and lived through Bangaldesh war, as a student in England, on BBC news. It was like having a front center seat in the theater for 10 mins. out of 20 mins. 9:00PM news, every night. Pakistani army, police and government without local support were ineffective and lost. Rather than merely putting RAW agents in Karachi etc., for tit-for-tat, India must involve communities in all aspects. Indian cricket team today can have as many as 3 to 4 muslim Indians in the team, which shows that Team India is balanced and performs well, when all Indians can perform as a team. Participation of all commmunities is the best way to combat terrorism. Gujjubanias ilk may retaliate violently as a reaction to violence, but Ballukhan, Frazana, Hindvi and many many like them from all communities would not think of retaliation in that fashion. Inclusion is the best way to combat terrorism in however defective Indian democratic set up.

BTW, I also do not believe, that one must know all one billion Indians personally to form views, and indeed I do not know everyone of muslim Indians, just I do not know, everyone of hindu Indians.

Thanks,

Anil

Oh good...now that everyone (including those from St. Louis) knows that IMs are essentially nice people...and there is a discussion on faith going on here, let me post something interesting. If you have already read it elsewhere , then read it again...

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, the Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof: So you believe in God?

Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?

Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn`t. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can`t answer, can you? Let`s start again, young fellow. Is God good?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?

Student: No

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

Student: From...God...

Prof: That`s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn`t it? And God did make everything. Correct?

Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don`t they?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and serve the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelled your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student: No, sir. I`m afraid I haven`t.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn`t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn`t.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don`t have any thing called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can`t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn`t darkness?

Student: You`re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light.... But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn`t it? In reality, darkness isn`t. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn`t you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can`t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor`s brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor`s brain, felt it, touched or smelled it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student.)

Prof: I guess you`ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it, sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

That young man was ALBERT EINSTEIN

Here`s some stuff for Mantolives, Tahmed, Behram (yes, Behram!), HP and all other well wishers of India to enjoy:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerindex?id=1674437

And if you click on the ``INTERNATIONAL`` bar on the right, you`ll see another one in the same series called ``India: America`s Switchboard ``.

Watch and weep!

:)


(oh, and there`s some good stuff on Pakistan too!)

#103 by anil

[I so much agree that Indian must learn to differentiate between Muslim Indians and other muslims, especially Pakistanis. Among my wonderful friends, I can tell that differences are obvious to me. All muslim Indians that I have met are proud of India, and protective about their religion and respectful about others. They want to participate in the Indian dream and get a share of Indian pie. The outlook especially that of women is so much enlightened, and less submissive. This is obvious from both Ballukhan and Farzana (she certainly is more Indian than religious).

Anil]


You know Anil (and bjkumar),

There is a sickness in the liberal left that is quite maddening at times. The idea, that they alone understand the human values of decency and fellow-feeling, unlike those bad guys on the right.

Which is why it is so ironic to find that lefties are the FIRST to get wiped out in any theocracy.

Believe me - I, as well as many other ``insensitive`` people do know that there is an overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims who are not busy plotting jehad. However, I do not have ostrich-like illusions that there are not amongst them a few who have been bitten by the jehadi bug that has been going around for 1400 years. Yes, there are those amongst us who will slit your belly like a pig regardless of whether you want to recite well-meaning little poems to them.

Those people who planted the bombs might have been Pakistanis, but they had local help, as happens ALWAYS.

So kindly spare us the sermons of what beautiful friends you have amongst IMs - guess what - so do we on the ``insensitive`` right.

re:#104 by bjkumar
You fail to appreciate that IMs were being part of a political process when they protested against Bush. I did criticise it at the time but now i feel that some of them were only expressing their Right to protest peacefully, a fundamental right enshrined in the Indian Constitution. Besides, most of them were mobilized by various political parties. Even Shiv Sena protested against the Bush`s visit. No doubt some IMs went overboard with OBLs picture etc but even that is tolerated in a democracy.
From protesting to killing people is a big step. I think u are wrong in implicating IMs in Varanasi blasts. Pak`s ISI is behind this. Some IMs may have been used but they are not the real villains.
Sridhar

re:#92 by kalihawa
You are so right!
It is this sage like quality that has seen India thr` difficult times. Now that India is rising out of its morass, it is imperative that people remain calm and do what is necessary to fight the evil of terrorism.
Sridhar

re:#90 by kaalchakra
You pose a very difficult question.
Before answering your question, we have to ask some more questions as to why these things are happening.
Remember Delhi blasts?
It occurred in a busy market place very close to Diwali. It was traced to some Kashmiri military group with connections to LeT. It closely followed on the heals of Paki earthquake when tension ran high on diplomatic front between India and Pak.
Now, varanasi blast has occurred following Bush`s visit to subcontinent when Pak felt slighted by him. The blast this time happened in a temple.
Both were meant to incite a violent reaction from hindus. I believe both have roots in Pakistan.
What were the enemies hoping for?
consider the worst scenario.
A riot starts in Varanasi, quickly spreads to other major cities. A counter-riot is started by some muslims. Riots have a cascading effect. Soon, whole of India is rioting.
If the riot spreads to Bangalore, Hyderabad, there may be tremendous damage to peace, property, even affecting the high-tech areas.
What will then happen?
First thing to happen will be that investments will come to a halt because India would be deemed unsafe by the world financial community. Travel to India by tourists will come to a halt. BSE will take a nosedive. All this will mean billions of dollars of loss and flight of capital from India.
Scary, is it not.
Now, the important question:
Who would benefit by a hindu-muslim riot?
Certainly not the IMs. They would be the worst victims.
Certainly not India nor the hindus.
If there is one nation that would benefit, it would be Pakistan.
It can say that India is unsafe for muslims, gain an upperhand with the Kashmiris which it seems to have lost of late and also, gain a diplomatic advantage the world over by projecting India in bad light, not to talk of projecting itself as a safe haven for investment!
What is the solution?
I need to think and come up with something in a future post. I am no expert but there are a number of things that India needs to do to strengthen its defenses.
Sridhar

re:#88 by ballukhan
You are very right.
I also think most hindus (some like Kulharee being exceptions) also intuitively know what is going on here. Jehadi minded Pakis are behind this. Even if they have recruited some IMs to do the dirty job, one needs to go to the source here, which is ISI`s attempts to dirupt communal harmony. I hear ever Iran is now fishing in troubled waters, trying to recruit shias for their own nefarious activities.
Sridhar

re:#91 by arjun_m
Thanks.
You answered my question that i posed in another forum.
Sridhar

#104
you miss hindvi..how about vertex? he has a fresh perspective.

#103 Anil

(Note: I have no idea how the topic moved into this direction.)

For what it is worth, I agree with you. I truly believe that every Indian Muslim that you know (and that I know) is just as ``hubbey-watan`` as anyone could be - not just the two individuals that you named.

Having said that, the simple fact of life is that you or I donot know EVERYBODY. The fact also is the onus always falls on the shoulders of the minority - anywhere - to prove their bonafides. (I know it ought not to be that way ideally - but that`s the way it is.) (It applies even in the land of the free.)

And it is also a fact that there are indeed plenty of individuals who are fanatics (yes, within India, too) and put their communal feelings ahead of everything else. The people who provide shelter and sustenance to the recent terrorists in India (whether they be domestic or foreign trained) or the individuals in India who were carrying placards extolling OBL during the visit of the US president did not drop out of the sky. (That is where there is a bit of hypocrisy on the part of some in the intelligentsia - they pretend to look elsewhere.) It is also a fact that it does not take a lot of such individuals to create a problem. The ISI and their bosses have (at least in the past) counted on that fact.

The fact is that most desis (of any religion or any region or any segment) in the subcontinent put their local ties, family ties, etc. way before their duties as a citizen of the country - that concept of citizenship has not jelled up enough (things take an awfully long time in the old country) and that is where the weakness lies. Which means that many will know of the troublemakers - or suspect that something is not right - but will not report it. (The widespread lack of professionalism in the domestic law enforcement agencies, and apprehension of the reaction from one`s own community (remember who is most vulnerable to the bad elements - those who are the most proximate) contribute to that.) At least that is how I see it.

I have said this before - I personally believe that within India, we need large scale integration of the communities - some of which may be occurring in big cities - this will be doubly beneficial because it will reduce some of the suspicion and hostility through interaction and at the same time, it will remove individuals from under the domination of the local community bosses (who may be Mullahs). And law-enforcement needs to be done in a serious manner - and applied to everyone - no favorites. There needs to be protection for those who choose to integrate and there should be SOME kind of incentive for such integration - preferably economic.

And I also somewhat agree with Hindvi`s (whatever happened to the guy?!) earlier assertion that there is nothing like the presence of a minority population to teach people the practicality of tolerance - that it is doable - one does not need to be 50% minority to start making a difference and having a real say in how things are run. Most people do not get disillusioned as long as they recognize that they have a stake in the outcome and that they have a say in it.

The Pakistanis practically got rid of all their Hindus - I hold Jinnah responsible - so it is going to be more difficult for them - but Manto is entitled to his dreams!

I so much agree that Indian must learn to differentiate between Muslim Indians and other muslims, especially Pakistanis. Among my wonderful friends, I can tell that differences are obvious to me. All muslim Indians that I have met are proud of India, and protective about their religion and respectful about others. They want to participate in the Indian dream and get a share of Indian pie. The outlook especially that of women is so much enlightened, and less submissive. This is obvious from both Ballukhan and Farzana (she certainly is more Indian than religious).

Anil

Re: # 101

awesome.... thanks:)