Revenge of the Secularists

#113 by ahmedmadani
Ahmed Madani Sahib,
Since we are on the topic of Ragas and Shiva, there are some ragas solely celebrating various aspects of Shiva. These include Raga Bhairava, Shankara Bharn and Bhim Palasi, etc. Raga Malkaun (my web search tells me) celebrates the fiery aspect of Shiva.
Dhrupad exponents often start a music with Raga Bhairav.
Then there is raga Shiva Ranjani (a raga said to be a favourite of Shiva). Ravana (the demon king who abducts Sita in the epic Ramayana) was an ardent devotee of Shiva and obtained many boons from the latter. Hindu mythology has it that when Ravana, drunk with pride and meditating under the hills of Kailash (abode of Shiva), once lifted up the mountain with his one foot, thinking he is invincible. To teach him a lesson, Shiva is said to have pressed on the mountain so Ravana`s foot got struck under it. There he was for a long time in pain. Shiva let him go only after he repented and sung raga Shiva Ranjani!
Shiva is also depicted as the Lord of Dance or Nataraja.
Nataraja: the dancing Shiva

One website describes Siva`s dance as follows:

(Shiva`s earliest manifestation is as dancer. He danced to destroy - Tripura, elephant demon, Andhaka, or cosmos, and to sustain and delight - his consort, devotees and own self.)
In the dance depicted in the above picture, Shiva is shown subduing a demon (symbolic of demonic forces) under his right foot while lifting his left foot. Fire is shown to be emanating from his hair , palm with serpents at either side. I do not know what symbolism they represent. This form of dance is depicted in South India. In the North, Shiva is known for his Tandava dance.
I recently saw a BBC program highlighting an upcoming artist Akram Khan (a second generation Brit born to IMs). This guy is fabulous and is fusing Hindu mythology with contemporary Western dance and had rave reviews in the British press for a dance called ``kaash``. Akram Khan is well versed in Kathak and later also learnt Western dance.
You can read about him and ``kaash`` here
Sridhar

Re: # 118 rs

hey - harish mian is being sarcastic there.... are you alright? don`t let YLH get to you doc?

re:#115 by Mantolives
I do not care what some people think about me in Chowk. I come to chowk to have some fun that`s all. I am not here for a popularity contest.
I, however, will defend the truth even if it is unpalatable to most Pakis. I have done the same to some Indians and talked about caste system, Moditva etc. in the most critical term possible.
The fact is, i used to think highly of manto during his Rutger years but he has now fallen from my grace. I think he has gotten enmeshed with local politics in Pakistan, which is of course communal. I have already said that if Manto is trying to enter politics in Pak, it makes sense that he be staunchly pro-Jinnah and anti-Gandhi.
But, then what he says is not the truth and i will hit back hard (even below the belt if necessary) to defend the truth.
Sridhar

re:#112 by harish_hyd
(When Gandhi uttered the words ``Ram Rajya``, he was being exclusivist and anti-Muslim.)
That is a very stupid statement, coming from u.
Gandhiji used the word ``Ram Rajya`` in a symbolic manner. If u have studied Ramayana, u would know that during the reign of Rama, there was peace and prosperity.
Of course, u can expect most muslims to throw a fit. Anything symbolic is an anathema to them, so much so that some IMs even object to Vande Mataram.
You probably do not know but Gandhiji used to read books from various religions during his prayer meetings. These books included Geetha, Bible and Qoran.
Sridhar

Re: # 115 YLH

rsirdhar is still ``decent`` fellow - but he is just giving you the test of your own medicine - so to speak :))

Dear Ahmedmadani/Kaalchakra

(Brahmin, Khatri - to the best of my knowledge, there are no such things for Shiva, Vishnu etc. If there are, someone might correct me :)

Its like asking whether Allah is Shia or Sunni or Ahmedi

Regards

Dear Hamidm...

Thank you for your advice. It goes without saying that it is much appreciated as it comes from you.

On another note... it is sad to see what Chowk has done to rsridhar.... who used to be a decent fellow once upon a time.

ahmedmadani

Brahmin, Khatri - to the best of my knowledge, there are no such things for Shiva, Vishnu etc. If there are, someone might correct me :)

Re: # 111
Dear BJK... I thank you profusely for giving related story.
India is one of country with interest of foreigner due to this magic of mythology and people take interest and enjoy as peoples stories which are long and intrigueing. I have visited India few times and I find India having magic. If you take magic out of India then India is nothing just geography. The story of Siva has also caught imagination of people who composed Ragas. Sankara is befitting raga for Siva character as well as though imtemperate god at same time he is calm and seeks seclusion. So name given raga composed in honor notes give justice being calm and soothing and peaceful as place of funeral place, It has pathos and calmness and peaceful, normally it is sang at night and at conclusion many times. Late Kundanlal Saighal was great in Bhairavy I think his several hit songs but best short song in Bhairavi was in ``Shahajahan``. Probably print may have not sevived of movie but song has survived. It was so good after hearing that song Bade A.Khan told him what we can not do in two hours of singing you do more in 3 minutes.

Still its not clear Siva and ( Jay wrote story) Mr.... were Brahmins married to Khatris is misterious.

#79 by einsteinwallah

I think it is foolhardy to compare Gandhi and Jinnah, as there is no comparison. When Jinnah made pro-Muslim and anti-Hindu statements, he was right because he was merely being the leader of Muslims. When Gandhi uttered the words ``Ram Rajya``, he was being exclusivist and anti-Muslim. By holding both leaders to different standards, I think some folks here are inadvertently conceding that while Gandhi was a leader of all Indians, Jinnah was merely the leader of the Muslim community. That`s okay with me.

#110 Madani sahib

Your knowledge of such mythological details (most of which are unverifiable for obvious reasons – not that too many people care too much about such details) is very impressive and is far superior to mine.

(Perhaps Ms. Sadna could illuminate further.)

(Note: you may be right about where Shiva actually used to dwell.)

I looked for some descriptive information over the web and the following excerpts regarding Shiva’s marriages are taken from a very interesting account on the bengalinet web site. (Note: I fixed some typos.)

“….Marriage of Shiva and Parvati is a two-episode love story stretching from one lifetime to another. Devi Durga took birth for the first time as Sati, one of sixty daughters of King Dakshya and Prasuti. Dakshya was son of Brahma, one of the Trinity of Hindu Mythology, the Lord of creation. Sati fell in love for Shiva, the Lord of destruction among the Trinity. Her parents were afraid to give her hands to a half-naked, unclean homeless mendicant and haunter of cemeteries like Shiva. ….Dakshya arranged Sati’s “Saymbar” (the ceremony where a woman could choose her husband from among the invited guests) inviting all except Shiva. Sati refused to alter her choice and married Mahadeva (lord of lords) Shiva by trick. She prayed before her lord to appear and threw her garland in air. Shiva appeared and accepted the marriage appeal of Sati. … Sati married Shiva against the wishes of her parents. She denied all the riches given by her father to compensate her earthly loss and adorned her beloved’s dress of tiger skin. … Before his love stood not even all riches of Kuvera, the Lord of Wealth of Hindu Mythology. Without his love she felt poverty even amongst riches.

To her, serving her beloved was her religion, his wishes became hers and his happiness that of hers. With this pride of love she went to her husband’s abode at Kailasha. After sometime, an unpleasant incident occurred between Dakshya and Shiva. In the Yagna or sacrifice organized by Maharshi Bhrigu both Dakshya and Shiva along with whole of the Spiritual world were invited. When Dakshya entered the ceremony room all except the Trinity stood up in his honour. The Lords of Creation and Preservation, Brahma and Vishnu were unanimously accepted as Lords of the world, but how dare Maheshwara, even being his son-in-law fail to honour him like all other Lords of Heaven? Dakshya became blind in fury. His previous scar of marrying her daughter against his wishes was not yet healed. Dakshya spitted all his venom against Shiva in words. All other guests and the invitees present there remained perplexed and embarrassed except Nandi, one of the two close associates of Shiva, the white bull. The Loyal servant cursed Dakshya to have a head of goat.

Furious Dakshya swore vengeance for the insult. He arranged a sacrifice and entrusted Narada, the messenger of Heaven, to invite all Spiritual Lords and eminent personalities of Earth and Hell except Shiva for the occasion. Narada remained confused as any sacrifice without the presence of Shiva becomes futile. But like many other times, he wanted to exploit the situation for some fun. This fun loving messenger of heaven is the mastermind behind numerous marriages and a number of misunderstandings. He executed the entrusted task first then went to Sati to make her aware of the injustice done to her by her father. Sati failed to note the insult and begged before her husband to let her go to her father’s house at this grand occasion, where all of her sisters would come. She longed for the house of her childhood and the company of long unseen parents and sisters. Shiva warned her regarding the hidden intention of her father. Sati knew that her husband was right but her head gave way to her heart. She repeatedly pleaded and cried before Shiva. The kind ashutosh (one who is easily pleased) allowed her to visit the occasion. Sati reached her father’s house to find that his husband’s fears were true. Her mother welcomed her with a sigh for her ill fate; her rich sisters taunted her of her poverty. When even her father gave her a cold shoulder she could not bear any more and burst out in anger pointing out all that her husband had done for the world. But her father instead of pacifying her started to insult Shiva. Disheartened, Sati preferred to leave the body that heard the insults of her husband and died on the spot.

A broken-hearted Nandi who accompanied Sati this time, fled to Shiva to give the news of this disaster. Peace loving Shiva lost his temper for this unbearable loss. He created a monster out of his hair with the sole purpose of destroying Dakshya’s Yagna (sacrifice). The ceremony came to a disastrous end and Dakshya was killed. When all of the deities present there prayed, Shiva returned his life but punished him by placing a head of goat above his body. Dakshya pleaded before him and repented for his misdeed. This decreased Shiva’s anger a bit, but his grief remained. Carrying the lifeless body of Sati on his shoulder Shiva started his dance of death, the Tandava. The world appeared to have ended before his feet. Alarmed, the Lord of creation, Vishnu, sent in his Sudarshan Chakra which started mutilating Sati’s body into 51 pieces and lessening the weight from Nataraja’s shoulder. The pieces thus thrown away gave rise to “Ekanna Pithas” or 51 pilgrimages for worshippers of the Mother Goddess or Shakti.

Shiva cooled down but his mourning continued. He did not return to Kailasha without Sati, instead he went for meditation in a cave of Himalaya.

In the mean time, according to Vishnu’s wish Sati was reborn as Gauri or Parvati, the daughter of Giriraj (King of mountains) Himalaya and Menoka. As “parvat” is another term for “giri” or mountain she is also called “Parvati”. When Gauri attained her age of marriage Narada, worshipper of Vishnu, came to Himalayas’ court. He, according to Vishnu’s instruction forecasted that Gauri would be the right match for Shiva.

Delighted, Himalaya requested Shiva to let his daughter worship him. Mahadeva allowed her worship. Gauri started her Tapasya or meditation for Shiva for three hundred years eating nothing but leaves of apple wood. But she failed to please him. She started the final phase of her rigorous meditation, Panchatapa, keeping Sun right above her head and fire surrounding her. Days and months and years passed away when suddenly Shiva appeared in disguise to test her devotion. Her devotion won heart of Shiva. Heavens rejoiced in delight. The marriage was arranged and the lost lovers were reunited forever.
But still Shiva is afraid of loosing her and is always wary of any more insult to her beloved – so watches over her. You can find him piping from a corner or above the idol of Durga watching his wife and family in her fathers’ abode. ….”

Re: # 107
Mr.BJK I decided to advantage your knowledge as you translated beautiful poem from indian classics. I wanted ask realy to Mr. Jay about some hindu Mythology.
He gave example of Sage ... ( do not remember name) and his son Parsuram killing all ( lots ) of Khatris etc. Was his father brahmin married to Khatri mother ?

Secondly Siva was was brahmin( ?) but did he marry Khatri woman ?. As I read some Indian classics and story goes like below. ( I can be wrong in details). Shiva was residing in his cottage in Himalaya. And some king Daksh had daughter fell in love with shiva and her father advaced her to not to think of him as he is poor and angry man who has left society and living on fringes society and not worth of marrying princes. But she decides to go against wishes against father and and with great effort seduces and Shiva finally marries and starts domestic life. Then one day his wife get bad omen and says to her lord I have desire to visit my family. Siva tells and begs no to go on this trip as she will be insulted in court by her father who is king. He tell my dear wife refrain from such trips as it will bring all pathos. But Princes decides against her husbands wishes and siva sends along with his Pet Bull for protection. The princes is made fun of her her husband by her father , she fells so bad she immolates in fire. Sivas Bull goes back to tell master and Siva is heart broken and his nind fire with anger and starts going down mountain with his bull. He says now I become death and destroyer of earth and finishes his father in Law.

Does it means Siva married Khatri princes ?

We have here a place where they say siva cried as per above story in my country.( we just now pictures of place on Chowk, DM ji has also visited that place if i am right) So mythology wise Shiva use to reside in Pakistan is conclusion. Indias greatest poet starts his great epic of kumarsambhava when shiva withdraws to mountain in grief of loss his wife and goes in mediation. Then gods assign Madan and his wife to change moods of Siva and bring him back to wordly things.
So as per mythology this god of destruction siva get wife. Are these parvati, Kali etc concerts of siva same incarnation ?

Thanks in advance.

#108 Ahmedmadani

Thank you Madani sahib.

I must say this.

If there is at least one person who has truly and always earned my respect on this web-site, it is you.

(PS: please do not consider ``dude`` a term of disrespect - it is a term used by young people to address other young people that they feel comfortable with. Thank you.)

Re: # 106

You have good points.
I like always respectful of people no but and ifs. I even treat my cats with respect as they have feelings. ( You have been respectful always in your addressing others). I am for censorship as many people are not decent and abusive. And they do not understand they have to control themselves. Classical example is Behram he did not understood its bad to talk like that and still he went of extreme abusive towards hindu women, worst it was repeatative and some people began to justify his obscene remarks and that was bad. I do not understand his upbringing as aprsee are good people and always law abiding and they do not make troubles and liberal type. Now the editor of this chowk can not go on allowing somebody like him go on abusing so editor has black listed him and he can not misuse this place. That is good decision. I herd he is politican in america and elected city person. Do in usa they go on abusing people like that? It can not other wise USA will be poor.

About that 32 years old man, I did not say but he is Ugly looking also. But I have no interest to help such person, he has degree in management from usa but still he could not get job in usa had to return empty handed that means he is not very good in management studies or went to 4th rate college from america. Any way he is no good person, his mother made telephone to to ask my daughters to see if they can find some body. I did not tell my daughters about his plight as he is not good material to become good husband or father, mean man. The story ends for me.

I WISH YOU GOOD NEW WEEK.

Re: # 103 (Addendum)

Also, there is still hope for the individual you mention who is still a bachelor at the ``ripe`` old age of 32. He should consider visiting Indian Hyderabad - I am sure some well-meaning mai baaps who have been very laboriously drilling the concept of absolute ``respect`` into their daughters of 8 or 9 will happily hand such daughters over to this individual - it will probably be considered a vast improvement over the 60-70 year old Arab sheikhs who make annual ritualistic visits solely for that purpose!

I doubt such parents give a hoot which orifices such bachelors stick their fingers into!

Jinnah is dead, I agree - but the mindset that made him a ``hero`` and still has the Pakistani population under its spell seems to be alive and kicking. It appears to be kicking some real ass and education and all the rest has the least to do with it!

The hate pots of the world can appear the most respectful of the lot - when it suits their devious purpose!

#103

Dear Madani sahib,

I am sorry I appear to have got you upset. That was not my intention.

With all due respect, what has upbringing got to do with anything? Can we not deal with individuals as individuals - without dragging in their baaps and their dadas, and the rest of their village into the discussion? Why this groupthink?

Why can`t desi people stand on their own two feet, I ask you! Why this helplessness - this flailing of hands and arms and legs and the rest of the appedages?

My dear Madani sahib, the problem is we teach our young ones to blindly obey our elders - without questioning their wrong thinking, their wrong approach, and their wrong ways of solving (or rather not solving) the problems that are all around us, and that are all over us and that are all inside us! Respect for our elders needs to be EARNED by our elders - and it must be earned one act at a time - and there must never be a family bank deposit of respect to draw from.

Blind respect for individuals - it`s the chooha hiding at the base which has been nibbling away and sapping out all of that mammoth creative potential that lies latent in our vast multitude of youth - nibbling away and making the structure all hollow - as only choohas can!!

I detest all choohas! Such pests!

The Mantos of the world are no accidents - they are deliberate creations!

The sad fact is that this sort of foolishness is not confined to the desi society at large but has even affected the chowkies!

Just look at the individuals who have appointed themselves to editorial positions on this site and the moment that happens - lo and behold - they start talking down to people. A sense of power goes right to those little heads and - like all little heads - fills it so completely and overwhelmingly that their vision gets kicked out faster than a ``sarak-chhaap-Romeo``! As we say it in this part of the world, they immediately outgrow their breeches. Then they start censoring and they start deleting comments faster than motu people lapping up jalebis. They let the drib and drab stand and kill words of value - words that truly mean something - words that mean more than any words that they have ever seen or perhaps shall ever see!

As has been said elsewhere:

``Today, they burn my words here - tomorrow they will burn me!``

What kind of world is that, I ask you!

...ye mahalo ye takhton ya taajo ki duniya
ye insaan ke dushman samajo ki duniya.....
ye daulat ke bhukhhe rivaazo ki duniya
ye duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai
ye duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai....

Madani Sahib

The pleasure is all mine. Please don`t take BJK amiss. He is a great guy, a sharp thinker with his own, unique way of addressing issues.

Back to the discussion.

Re: # 101 Thanks for your dignified way of writing, it reflects good upbringing knowing how to address people.

Re: # 102
Dear Mr. Beej Kumar, thanks for noting degradation of desi young people and their disrespects to elders.

Firstly I suggested indians to go home if you have to become nasty or personal attacks otherwise they are fine and welcome..

Lots Indian crowd are chor( means not good) people and have no class as children they were spoilt by their parents and have no manners. They try to tease me by calling dude etc bad names. I have no respects for punks and young people and who drink liquior and takes drugs and get wonderful ideas under influence. It does not require brains as you consume 50 rs opium and Ganja and wonderful ideas start floating and they get high. And they write disrespectual adjective to people. Then they get wasted and parents cry and ask help from Allah etc but I have no sympathy for parents as if they have whipped these indian punks they would be working in good jobs and married to good looking women and with good looking children. If they had taught to say sir and madam to elders and politeness India would have gone ahead. They are so mannerless here also they do not have handker chief in pocket and when they go to see girl for life partnership they put fingures in nose to scratch. Also they feel they are special and daughter are nothing. Once I was match making to help such punk and then he told me girl is not good i said why then he said she is not keeping figure. I became angry told him the girl may be chubby or little healthy but not fat like you and you have not kept you figure, its not baby fat on you. Any way here also high class people are loosing class and becoming homogenised awam barbarians. Punk boy is still batcheoler at ripe old age of 32 while the girl rejected is already mother of two beautiful daughters and his mother said now he is ready compromise ( he has stated loosing hair and now fat looking man no woman who is not blind is going to marry him). Hope these punks treat marriageble women with respect.
Anyway that is good thought for this afternoon.
Now about Messiah its all just bogus as no body is coming also. Even if he comes nothing is going to change. Yes people are tried of false starts. I just said my feeling what will be good to do and feel QAMA will think on same lines but he is not coming he is gone just like Mohatma. What I wanted to say really no point in beating dead horese who said what and to whom and when. Its garbage , no use hope people think and talk about today and tomorrow no point in crying over spilled milk. Hope people like Manto can give that Jinnahs idealogy can give solution for restoring elctions.
Now I mean no disrespects even punks as they are mistake but what parents can do.
I think only solution is new slate and IRP again go back to school and start election with exiled or excaped leaders who are in London in hybernation for long years.

#101 Kaal
Don`t your lips ever get sore? (All that kissing!)

#100 by ahmedmadani

Dear Sir Mr. Madani (or as the younger crowd likes to say it - Madani dude),

The problem with Pakistani leaders has been that too many of your leaders have been showing the ``morning`` to the awam. There are all those ``mornings`` but there is never any daylight that dawns! And you and Manto want a Messiah to come and solve your problems - and you wish him to come crawling out of a grave from long ago! I got bad news, buddy - it ain`t gonna happen!

[No Indians please as this is Pakistani problem.]
You guys make every Pakistani triviality a darn Indian problem - and you end up always blaming your most asinine problems on not getting Kashmir handed over to you like a bouquet of roses!

So don`t tell me to shut my mouth on what to say. Those thick-skinned editors do it often enough! Yeah!

Madani sahib offers sage advice :)

presently what is going on is not good, we are here for little knowledge, wisdom and little discussion and little fun if innocent.
Let us forget Mohatma gandhi and QAMA Jinnah.
Indians should go home, we have love for Jinnah but we do not disrespect mr.Gandhi.
All we pakistanies should think of things we can to to help ourselves like financuial discussion and rise in economy and discassion about second fastest growing economy which is IRP, real estate.
If you want little politics we should discuss what QAMA Jinnah would have done to restore democracy.
My feeling is he would have asked Mr. President to hold on Power , and allow leadrs of 95% of pakistanis Mr. AltafBhai, Mrs BB and Mr. NS to return from UK and fight election. Forgive them for what things happened long years ago and also forgive Army chief for take overs. He would have said `` This is new morning, let elections begins``.

I wonder what person like Mr. Manto feels he would have done in given situation.
Let us see what people of IRP feels, No Indians please as this is Pakistani problem.

re:#94 by hamidm2
So, if a person tells the truth, he is sick!
I would not have bothered to be so blunt to Manto had he not persisted with his sickening obsession of deriding Gandhi. You may want to ask him if he is sick or not. People should remember that respect is a 2 way affair.
Sridhar

Re: # 86

It is really not important what I or anyone else thinks about what Pakistanis should do. What is important is what Pakistanis want. In trying to figure out what Pakistanis want it is important to go directly to Pakistani people and not be hung up about what 2 or twenty dead people of yore said. Of course Zeena is right in opining that democracy too needs enlightened leadership. But exclusively banking on presence of a leader presupposes birth of one. Problem of Pakistan is all their good leaders are dead. There is a bankruptcy of original thinking in living leaders of Pakistan. You cannot ask a dead leader what he really meant if on two different times he made contrary statements. Under the circumstance you will be left with your own sense. If anyways you have appeal to your own thinking to separate wheat from chaff, why not do it at beginning? Besides consulting living people you are going to produce better fit of your ideas with their lives in coming decades.

Constitutions of all countries are imposed from above. But if a constitution is too much at variance from what people really want then it would not be any good. My advice to you: take holiday for one year. Go from one small town to another in Pakistan. Talk to people on issues that agitate their and your minds. Get a feel of what people want. What is doable in terms of constitution and law. Institutions and procedures. Checks and balances. Write a draft constitution and try to sell it to people of Pakistan.

I prophesy that Islam as you and I know will disappear from face of earth. It is just a matter of time. Since certain documents are considered too sacrosanct for editing, trick is to limit their jurisdictions. Religions are not disappearing from face of earth any time soon. But their jurisdictions should be limited to allow for existence of different faiths co-living. Pakistan cannot live in isolation. There has got to be a lot of intended and intended interactions with international community. There will be Shiyas, there will be Sunnis. And there will be Christians and there will be Hindus. You cannot wish them away. Limiting the jurisdictions of faith is precisely what Galileo did. Galileo really never stopped being a believing Christian. What you need to do is a Galileo act. Trust me on this. This is what you really want to do. And I am not trying to analyze anyone.

#95 Hamidm
[....a piece of advice - stop wasting your time on chowk...]

Typical Hamidm - never practices what he preaches to others.

#Article

This writer appears to live in a make-believe bubble world of his own. The real weakness of this article is obvious – it tries to focus away from the past without any attempt to deal with the causes of that past – therefore the underlying causes remain unaddressed – simply pushed under the carpet. Mian manto and his (few, very few) identical-thinking-soul mates believe that putting a new cover on the old carpet is going to change the place. Such change is only cosmetic!

People who disregard the lessons of history are forced to relearn them – again, and again! In the Indian subcontinent religious identity – especially for the average Pakistani Muslims – appears to have become the overriding consideration, to the exclusion of everything else.

The solution to the sub continental divide of aspirations will only start when the Pakistani Muslims of the subcontinent – can come around to openly and sincerely (without fear of getting their heads chopped off) say aloud that being a Muslim is no different from being a Hindu (or of any another religion) and people should not be judged differently because they are not Muslims.

Saying something that simple in a forum like this is no big deal! But are the streets ready for it? Perhaps not very enthusiastically!

And not to mention the simple logical question which automatically follows – what took you so long to see the obvious, dummy?

Re: # 81

manto,

......... a piece of advice - stop wasting your time on chowk, you are too good for it (also some of your remarks here might come back to haunt you when you run for parliament) ........... you should be spending more time with aitizaz ahsan .........

.... shabash, naujawan !

Re: # 87

rsridhar,

.... just when you thought it couldn`t get any worse .... chowk hits a new low ........

rsridhar, you must be a very sick person .....

re:#84 by Mantolives
Let us recap for the chowkies who u really are:
1. Son of an Ahmediyya, a sect that is outlawed in Pakistan so much so that they are not allowed to practice their religion freely and u have to declare u are not an Ahmediyya on your passport, so much so that u had to become a Sunni to get around the problem.
2. Citizen of Islamic Republic of Pakistan: a nation ruled by a dictator, an Islamic theocracy that has today become the epicenter of world wide jehad, a country where IT means Internationan Terrorism not what IT is known elsewhere.
Nothing wrong in feeling proud but i thought i should just put things in perspective.
Sridhar

re:#82 by einsteinwallah
Jinnah is all Pakis have got. My Paki friend from Karachi once told me that Pakistan produced only 2 politicians who are worth remembering: Jinnah and Liaquat Ali.
If u ask Pakis to let go of Jinnah, it is like asking them to commit harakiri.
They won`t do it.
They would rather cling to falsehood if it makes them feel good.
Sridhar

re:#81 by Mantolives
What are your credentials vis-a-vis Margaret Burke-White?
Let us see:
Latter was a famous photographer whose pictures and articles were regularly published in Times magazine.
And, you are a chowk`s expert on Jinnah?
I rest my case.
Sridhar

re:#76 by Mantolives
Margaret Burke-White does not have to be a political analyst to deduce some common sense things. She just quoted what Jinnah said and what he said is revealing. It shows a man devoid of his faculties in the waning days of his life.
Jinnah might have talked of democracy but he made no efforts to establish democratic institutions or even pass on instructions as to what he wanted. Instead, he assumed absolute power in Pakistan, which is the most undemocratic thing to do.
Gandhi could have become the ruler of India but he did not. That seperates a great man from a egoistic power hungry specimen that Jinnah was.
Sridhar

re:#75 by harish_hyd
Very few people knew that Jinnah was dying of advanced T.B. Is it possible his mental faculties were affected towards the end of his life and he was not the man he was before?
Sridhar

re:#69 by ballukhan
Very true.
Jinnah declared himself the ruler of Pakistan and still talked of democracy.
Mushy boy is the dictator of Pakistan and talks about ``democratic dictatorship`` and enlightened moderation.
A nation of blind led by the blind.
Sridhar

re:#86 by Mantolives
Looks like your wife is sleeping around again and u have plenty of time to start Gandhi bashing all over again on chowk.
Good, then. Carry on.
I gave u the link, moron, so u can look up the article.
I do not have to post the entire article.
Sridhar

Please don`t obfuscate and try to confuse people like a typical Gandhian. Ram Rajya is an exclusivist concept. If Islamic principles of Equality Fraternity and Justice for all is such an issue for you then Gandhi`s Ram Rajya should be doubly so...

And he called lower caste people ``Harijan``... despite protests from Dr Ambedkar to consider him equal not Harijan... Gandhi recognised caste system as a central motif of Hindiuism by acknowledging the presence... And thanks for acknowledging or rather slipping that Gandhi indeed spoke of a ``hindu rashtra`` ... so whats your problem with a ``Muslim Nation``? Gandhi thought ``Hinduism`` was GREAT and ``ideal rule`` was its corollory ... like most Hindus he failed to see that Hinduism wasn`t any greater than any other religion... or inferior..



Rsridhar...

Despite being a middle aged divorcee ...You`ve been abusing my family for many months now... this is typical gandhian behavior as far I am concerned... but thanks for dropping another gem...

You quoted Margaret Bourkwhite`s post thta you`ve done so for nth time despite the fact that it is merely a point of view and yet you even censor your own sources:


You quoted this part :

The trend of events in Pakistan would support the theory that Jinnah carried the banner of the Muslim landed aristocracy, rather than that of the Muslim masses he claimed to champion.


But then you censored these lines from Margaret Bourkwhite: There was no hint of personal material gain in this. Jinnah was known to be personally incorruptible, a virtue which gave him a great strength with both poor and rich. The drive for personal wealth played no part in his politics.

Only a Gandhian would make such a huge omission.

Re: # 81

The word ``Ramrajya`` is approximate translation of word utopia. Other than that it has little to do with Ram or his mythical story. In Indian languages a good substitute of the word is ``ideal rajya``. In hindi you would say ``adarsha rajya``. Gandhi said that very fact that there are low caste people meant Hindu rashtra would not be such an ideal nation. He called low caste people as People of God (Harijan). Amount of criticism of Hinduism that Gandhi did was harsh and most throughgoing like of which no one had ever done. Average joe Muslims think that it is sign of weakness to be self-critical. Average joe Muslim tries really hard not do same style of self-criticism as Gandhi did of Hinduism. They think that any open criticism of issues that perturbs west about Islam will weaken Islam. Average joe Muslims think that Chistianity is weak because of existence of so many versions and interpretations about their dogma. I think so you should read Galileo: A Very Short Introduction by Stillman Drake. It highlights Galileo`s attitude to religion. I think so modern Muslims need to produce arguments for similar attitudes vis-a-vis Islam.

PS: I for one can proudly say that as a citizen of the 21st century... nothing I want finds any similarly in the least with Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi`s agenda- which I consider backward, narrow and casteist. So I am frankly free of any such conflict.

Dear Einsteinwallah...

I have already explained why I for one speak of Jinnah on several occasions- latest one being my post addressed to my friend Stuka. I like your comparison of Locke and Thoreau... and note the parallel.

However for your own sake - I would suggest you desist from psychoanalysing me.

I think so what Pakistanis need to do is to give up their obsession of two dead people: Gandhi and Jinnah. They should start thinking about all issues with their independent minds. They should first figure out what they really want. And then fight temptation to look up in historical documents whether Gandhi also wanted to same thing as they want. Pakistanis are very disturbed the moment they discover that Gandhi advocated same thing that they want. Also stop seeking approval in utterances of Jinnah. Don`t be disturbed if Jinnah did not advocate what you think is right. Don`t try to reassure yourself by finding a quote of Jinnah which approximately corroborates your views. Be proud owner of your own views regardless of what Gandhi or Jinnah said on a related issue. By all means read Locke. It is alright if you do not read Thoreau. But first and foremost be owner and architect of your own thinking. And please learn some logic. And also practice self-imposed moratorium on reading Kuran and other related stuff for at least 24 hours before you do some serious thinking on a serious issues. By all means go to cave and eat the stuff the prophet ate. But do your own thinking and problem solving. Do not rely on others.

Einsteinwallah,

You are wrong:

1-Margaret Bourkewhite was a regular visitor to Gandhi`s ashram during his incarceration in that jail called Agha Khan`s Palace. She knew Gandhi, Jinnah and others very closely. There is no point spinning a photographer into some sort of a political analyst.

2- Jinnah`s model was always John Morley`s liberal philosophy... which is why he always asked students to read ``On Compromise`` by John Morley again and again. Furthermore if one reads more about his time between 1906-1937... he is very critical of any usage of Islam etc by people when describing democracy. However For a politician the issue is to recast one`s political ideas into language understood by the masses... Jinnah realised that for Muslims to agree to constitutional democracy and Morley style Liberalism ... they have to be convinced that these two things are not against Islam.. and once something is not unIslamic then it is Islamic.

I think it is absolute hypocrisy to excuse Gandhi for using Hindu Philosophy and Ram Rajya and saying that he meant ideal rule ... and then turning around and saying that when Jinnah spoke of Islamic Social Justice and Islamic principles of equality, fraternity and Justice ... it was not alright.

It does not matter if one uses Islamic or secular or whatever terms... but as I pointed out earlier Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan as he expressed consistently through out his career be it when he was the best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity (1906-1937), Apostle of Muslim separatism (1937-1947) or a statesman (1947-1948):


1- Rule of Law- Life Liberty and religious beliefs fully protected.

2- Equality of citizenship regardless of religion caste or gender

3- Sovereignty resting unconditionally with the people

4- No state interference in people`s religious beliefs and privacy

5- Constitutional supremacy and civilian rule


I could care less if a person thinks Islam is great or not... as long as that person is ready to concede these five points...

And yes... you are right.. Allama Iqbal was the ``Islamic Buddy`` who convinced Jinnah that social democracy was not alien to Islam but indeed a principle of Islam itself.

[Besides Margaret Bourkwhite was hardly a political analyst... instead more of a wide-eyed Gandhi-lover ... and if anything her account should be noted for the grudging admiration and the points she concedes .... Today ... for a brief period ... Indians are in a positon apparently to spin every thing any which way... good for you. But it doesn`t make it true.]

Margaret Bourke White may not be a political analyst. Nobody claims she was. But she was certainly not a wide-eyed Gandhi-lover. She had seen a lot of world before she was assigned by Life to visit India and Pakistan. She probably hardly knew Gandhi. At any rate she did not seek out India-Pakistan assignment. It was Life magazine which assigned her. She probably wanted to do one more round of Russia when she was assigned.

Gandhi used Ram-Rajya as a concept of ideal government. It is common usage in Indian languages especially Gujarati to speak of Ram-Rajya as ideal government. But Gandhi`s thesis was that India of his time was anything but Ram-Rajya. Bad state of affairs in India came about because Ram-Rajya was not there. That strove him to apply his energy to building Ram-Rajya.

OTOH Jinnah ``knew`` Islam was great and democracy was natural corollary of Islam. Jinnah did not apply his energy to understand that Islam was not great and so called natural democracy embedded in Islam was really a myth. Jinnah resisted any suggestion to the contrary. I think somewhere along he fell victim to brainwashing by his Islamic buddies. If he was such a great secularist then his views about Islam clearly shows that he must have been very impressionable person. Probably most Muslims are like him. Most develop early in their life an ability to obfuscate and confuse others. Sometimes ability of their brains to clearly think itself dies, victim of their own practiced art of obfuscation. They just forget how to think logically. Most Muslims are forced to be apologists for Islam. They deny that bad things are there in Islam itself. First set of beliefs that need reformation are Islamic beliefs themselves.

Zeena your #6 and #7 are contradictory.

In #6 you are advocating democracy for Pakistan and suggesting that somehow if you follow path of democracy you will have bad filtered out and good rising up. Then in #7 you are changing your mind. Now you want rejection of what everyone believe. Now you want a powerful ideology which somehow must be sold to masses who should be led by this ideology. You are saying that only true heroes start with their unique ideology first and then masses follow them. In other words you do not want masses to figure it out themselves (egg) but a superman (hen) giving a ``prefect`` idelogy which should be so persuasive that masses will just follow it. This leads to question: Do you want first a great hen to materialize or is it okay if eggs start hatching in large number and their collective wisdom carries your country forward?

You already had a great murghi (Jinnah) now all your eggs are broken. Please make up your mind: Do you want democracy or do you want great leader leading?

The USSR-USA post 2nd World War split and Pakistan`s role in the matter should not be judged on ideology. Jinnah`s cabinet had such communists as Mian Iftikharruddin... and the Quaid-e-Azam himself had inducted leftists and communists to balance out the right wing in the party. These included the Sajjad Zaheers and Daniyal Latifis... etc..

I`ve already spoken in detail about the issue of ``democracy`` and how Jinnah wanted to recast it in terms acceptable to the masses... It by no means equals ancient wisdoms and mahatmafication of politics that Gandhi undertook. Ram Rajya was a concept far worse than recasting John Morley in Islamic terms...

If Jinnah wanted to play power against power to use Pakistan`s strategic location he also asked for US $ 10 Billion per year in 1947 in aid... If you consider the amount and think that General Musharraf secured US $ 3 Billion in 2004 for his cooperation ... you begin to get a bigger picture. Jinnah`s main point was that America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America... but our leaders have done the exact opposite ...

Besides Margaret Bourkwhite was hardly a political analyst... instead more of a wide-eyed Gandhi-lover ... and if anything her account should be noted for the grudging admiration and the points she concedes .... Today ... for a brief period ... Indians are in a positon apparently to spin every thing any which way... good for you. But it doesn`t make it true.


-YLH

#70 by Salim_Chauhan

[I mean what does democracy and system of zakat have to do with each other?]

For all his brilliance as a lawyer, this statement is as idiotic as it gets and had me equally flummoxed. I mean is there even a remote connection between the two? The interview has many other such gems that reveal Jinnah`s evil genius, but at times, incredible incoherence. I made another observation on another board about how eagerly Jinnah was keen to pawn Pakistan to America`s interests. The same tradition continues even today, with the average Paki having absolutely no stakes in the wellbeing of his country.

PS: I didn`t know Sridhar has already provided the link, but here it is anyways.
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

#70 by Salim_Chauhan

[If this is true and an exact quote, it must have been said by the great man during his last days, when most people start to lose coherency.]

Yes Salim bhai, it is very much true. It is from Jinnah`s interview with Margaret Bourke White just after Partition. I will see if I can find the entire interview for you.

Re: 56, 62

(But for every Pharoah there is a Moses (pbuh); and for every Akbar there is a Mujadid Alif Saani (RA). )


And for every YLH, there is a Maulana Urstruly (pbuh).

Regards

``In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam`s thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. ``Surely America will build up our army,`` they would say to me. ``Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in.`` But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. ``No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan.````

If all this is right then I would believe that this pawning off of Pakistan to America actually began with Jinnah................Jinnah appears to be confident that America would ``build up our army`` ...and he raised the fears of Communists take over of Pakistan in order to force the Americans to provide the arms in order to ``build up our army`` ...............this pattern has continued till today..................

Re: # 70

The point was about Jinnah ...and this is a damning quote..................

#69, ballukhan {````Democracy is not just a new thing we are learning,`` said Jinnah. ``It is in our blood. We have always had our system of zakat -- our obligation to the poor`` ``}

Ballu MiaN,
This quote makes no sense whatsoever. If this is true and an exact quote, it must have been said by the great man during his last days, when most people start to lose coherency.

I mean what does democracy and system of zakat have to do with each other?

Gandhi could have replied:

``Democracy is not just a new thing we are learning. It is in our blood. We have always had our system of sood -- our obligation to become rich.`` LOL.

``Democracy is not just a new thing we are learning,`` said Jinnah. ``It is in our blood. We have always had our system of zakat -- our obligation to the poor``

You are right sridhar............. this mixing of democracy with Islam was reinforced by Jinnah himself. And we can see the results of all this in today`s Pakistan.................

re:#36 by Mantolives
This was Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan.
(What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?

``America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America,`` was Jinnah`s reply. ``Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed`` -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- ``the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves.`` He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. ``Russia,`` confided Mr. Jinnah, ``is not so very far away.``)
(n the ``terrible crisis,`` Mahomed Ali Jinnah was to pass into immortality, not as the ambassador of unity, but as the deliberate apostle of discord. What caused this spectacular renunciation of the concept of a united India, to which he had dedicated the greater part of his life? No one knows exactly.)
(he trend of events in Pakistan would support the theory that Jinnah carried the banner of the Muslim landed aristocracy, rather than that of the Muslim masses he claimed to champion.)
Sridhar

re:#23 by Mantolives on March 30, 2006 10:18pm PT
Jinnah`s PAKISTAN RISING
Ha, ha.
The only thing that rose was the thing between my legs, if u know what i mean.
Get a life.
Having a few women in PAF means diddly squat when this happens regularly in Pakistan.
Sridhar

re:#21 by Mantolives
It does not matter what Jinnah believed in. He founded a State based on religion. That state has today become a theocratic state, denying even basic human rights to minorities, and has become the epicenter of worldwide jehad.
Sridhar

Fahd Raza Sahib, {``With the memory of independence fading, it is no longer important whether the person offering me a job is a Hindu, Christian or a Jew, what really matters is what he is paying me. Relations between India and Pakistan are increasingly cordial as far as the public is concerned. True, there are a few black sheep here and there, but then they are more mischievous than ideologically motivated. ``}

Fahd,
Good article and some deep thoughts involving who we are and how we should conduct ourselves as citizens of a nation, as politicians aspiring to serve the public, and as members of humanity. Religion is rapidly giving way to universal morality that abhors violence and intolerance (except most of the Muslim world), blind jingoism (except for the United States and India), and cruelty (except everyone except Western Europe). The future of mankind is in freedom - of religion (including switching), of conscience, of women, of speech, of expression (including drawing of cartoons), and of voting (including voting for Hamas, Gore, or Ahmadinjiad). The sooner we get there the better for all of us. The next big movement will be vegetarianism - stopping cruelty against animals. But, first we need to stop it against fellow humans. Good job.

This very good article by Mr. F.R., thanks for writing.Unfortunately to many comments are right means they are not relevant. It is bad habit when Mr. Manto of Lahore writes to give his opinion backed by knowledge , and references, experience and universal and foreign travelled experience indian go ballasic, beserk. Many times it confuses mind thinking what is going on, and as one does not understand one think it must be right. Manto brings Mr. Jinnah and Gandhi and all party spoils and people gat crazy.

But Manto is original thinker in sense he has clearly understood Gandhi image is advantage India and as a bonafide citizen of IRP he brings the short cominings of mr. Gandhi and Indians get mad. But he should let go Mr. Gandhi as he was not educated properly and he had also old style and had no benefit of travel to other countries like usa. Actually Indian govt did damn good thing by putting lots of dollars in movie it must have 2000% return. While govt of pakistan did not spend even 1% of money and so Jinnah never clicked. It was best opportunity but was wasted for lack of money also actor Mr. Lee was not good at all. Also indians know how to produce movie make interesting by lots of music and good photography and also they put drama in the story. No movie clicks unless there is ``Drama`` in it, Jinnah lacked drama. Also to hype Gandhi movie in usa and white countries Indian govt paid money ( 200 million dollars) to get prize and gave money to white people to see movie and write good about and show it was commercial success though any movie clicks if you pay viewer 2 dollars. And Our brothers helped us by banning Gandhi but they actively did not support jinnah in their countries in theater by actively particiapating. If you want to make Icon then you need rupees to invest.

But manto is doing good work by right sizing and under cutting mr. Gandhi but questions is what supreme leader is doing ? Top leadership needs to support international effoerts to Under cut Gandhi and project Mr. QAMA Jinnah. Finally good image a national Icon can be used for monetary purposes as money wise indinas know better. There should be national institute in projecting Jinnah/s message to world and his ideas of secularism and ideas about religion and and nationhood. When muslims in China, Burmah or thiland or india , or kurds in middle east or Azaris, arabs in Azarbaijan or kuzestan in Iran, or sindhi, baloch problems of sub nationalism , etcresent and demand nationhood is victory of thoughts and works of Mr. Jinnah and devastating defeat for ideas of Gandhi. Even nonmuslims of temor in indinesia followed thoughts of Jinnah and his thinking that when people have religion then they have right to nationhood. The corrollary was follwed in E Pakistan. Same things are going to happen all over, as its very easy to divide people and religion is start and then it accelerates. The main theorem was developed by Jinnah and derivatives based on same inspiration,language, ethinicity, etc are. India will be divided into 100 tukaras and pakistan in 5 to 6 pieces over next 50 years. With that Mr. Gandhi will be exposed as dreamer and jinnah as person who can look in future.
Person like Manto should lead such organization as you need man to devotion courage and CONVICTION and govt should estabish centre of International standard institution in Our country to study and propagates the life and times and works and his ideas for world community. And pr4ivate donars and industries should donate money. Presently brother countries are sinking under weight of dollars as black liquid gold will soon be $200/ barrel. They can contribute some amount which can lead to trust fund of billions of dollars.

Also lots of young peoples specially our time and effort is wasted in writing just politics its sterile and garbage so hope we can become more platform to discuss shares, bonds, saving schemes, commodities and REAL ESTATE as that can help us. Otherwise we will not be able to take advantage of KSE Index shoopting up to skies. I really feel people who know some thing and little more of shares can contribute here otherwise its just pipe dream of Indians that Iran pakakistan India pipe line. Hope people should shun too much politics and concentrate on real politics which is concentrated politics which is economics ie stock exchange and make money. Just talking politics is not good it makes you ppor, one feels you know world things but you are ppor no good i suppose.
Any way we need things about money , rising port of Big G. We shuold take India out of site first then slowly it will be out of mind. Even supreme leader and leadership has conceded its time to be away from indocentric disease of mental order which leads to depression and obsession leading to anxity and many more things. Hope write about money, exdperience of how they made manoey and how much and how fast and how they lost and resons so we can use good things to avoid losses so we will gain. Some times I feel I need to buy some stocks and become rich but mind is weak and derpok needs boost to here stories of success.
Good new day its new day and day is young.
Good luck every body and good look in stocks , savngs and real estate.
Hope this place becomes place of rich people and thinking big about money, real estate , gold , silver, copper, etc. Presently it is becoming place of loosers and whiners and poor people who have nothing like 300 to 400 million Indians poors. This whining and, cut paste crude paste , personal attacks and finding problems with other and scratching warts in open is sure sign of future poverty and loss of vision for money and prosperity. Let us have article about sugar prices and how sugar market operates, or privatie making govt companies etc. Any way today I feel depressed and these seculars are not good. There are normal people like me and other strage people are secular, no body can understand what they say, they are loosers and normally ppor people.
Good luck and have good stocks so you become well to do.

`If maudud can convince people that his ideals are better than Jinnah`s and the people vote maududi into power, so be it`

Manto kammi kameen,

kaka said that IF maududi can convince people to elect him, then so be it. Jinnah`s papers or his vision or doesn`t mean squat. As long as the tax-payers are allowed to vote in in fair and recurring elections, Jinnah`s can go kill himself (no wait, he is already dead!).

BTW, which military dictator that Maududi collaborated with to impose his vision? (Ayub? Yahya? Zia? Musharraf?)

Abay Maulana Urstruly...

Ajj say pensath saal pehlay tumharay pur dada waghaira ``nation state yaani kay qaumi riyasat key khilaf thay, aur ajj say tees saal pehlay teray baap dada aurton ki siyasat mein shamooliat kay khilaf thay. Ajj teray baap dada - MMA wallay- constitution yaani kay ain-e-Pakistan kee baat kartey hain... aur halfan kehtay hein key ``Is Ain pay jaan bhee qurban`` aur aurton ko bhee siyasat mein ghaseet laye hain... aur riyasat-e-Pakistan ko apna mai baap maantay hain? Hai kay nahin?

Pus Riyasat, Ain aur aini Riyasat ki baladasti hee hai ``Godless`` ... ab jaa aur apni kismat ko ro.

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