Images and Symbols -- Deconstructing the Iraq War

Re: # 141

Arjun... It’s quite a stretch of the imagination to think that not a single one in the intelligence will come out and write a book about that, or blow a whistle at least. We are talking about CIA and FBI here and not a bunch of ISI monkeys who actually can keep a secret. HP has more faith in CIA and FBI than Americans. The last director resigned (Tenet) in disgrace.

I think the problem is people start out with this impression of the FBI/CIA as super-efficient entities that can do no wrong and if they do wrong, it`s not really a wrong but something that was planned all along..

FBI Delays Awarding Contract
For Computer-System Overhaul
By ANNE MARIE SQUEO
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
December 3, 2005

FBI officials, nervous about making another costly mistake overhauling the agency`s antiquated computer system, have postponed awarding the contract for the high-profile job until next year.

Two of the nation`s biggest defense contractors -- Lockheed Martin Corp. and Northrop Grumman Corp. -- are competing for the information-technology system, dubbed Sentinel. Federal Bureau of Investigation officials were scheduled to announce the winner last month. But they have postponed the selection until at least early next year, according to two government officials.

The delay is in part because of a desire to avoid the mistakes that plagued Sentinel`s disastrous predecessor, the Virtual Case File system. FBI Director Robert Mueller pulled the plug on that project in April after four years and about $170 million.

``At this time, we are currently in the middle of source selection, so it would be inappropriate to provide a specific release date,`` said FBI spokesman Richard Kolko. FBI officials have been seeking additional information for weeks from the two companies and haven`t yet made a recommendation to senior FBI officials.

Much is riding on the project`s success. Congress and other overseers pilloried the FBI for its reliance on paper records, forms and file cabinets. The FBI only last year completed the rollout of the Internet to its agents and analysts. And even though the bureau installed a computerized case-management system in the mid-1990s, it relied largely on aging, less-agile technology to do so. And it did little to eliminate the department`s notorious number of paper forms -- currently numbering more than 1,000.

Having been hauled before Congress numerous times to explain the bureau`s technology problems, Mr. Mueller has staked his legacy on installing a system that will streamline internal processes, speed investigations and improve information-sharing with other agencies. The Sept. 11 commission criticized the FBI`s lack of information sharing that could have helped prevent the terrorist attacks.

#140 by Urstruly
“do you think that the second objective has been achieved.”

Not yet. In fact, I believe that Jihadis will have to be eliminated from Pakistan too. Though, I would not prefer the US method of dealing with them.

There is lots of fakery in this war on terror. That’s not uncommon in many political struggles and ideological wars. Over a period of time, they take different meanings and tactics change based on the emerging realities on the ground.

As I wrote above, Iraq had more symbolic value than the real value. The symbolic part was important and from the US pov, force was the necessary ingredient of the message they wanted to send out. Once the message had been sent, the need for continuing to use force diminished considerably but the political actions that were needed to be followed elsewhere lacked the will or if I may put it bluntly, sacrificed for immediate political goals.

From your specific perspective, Pakistan is a battleground state. Jihadis in Pakistan would be fed for another few years until the US milks the whole thing.

“were you of the same opinion as you are now.”

The article you see above was written two years ago. I had a clear idea why the US wanted to go in there and I thought it was important to break Jihadi’s back especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In fact, I believed that even before 9/11. My idea of doing that was more in Pakistan than in Iraq.

My prediction is that the last battle in this war would still be fought in Pakistan and maybe to a certain extent in India too. I am not sure what the US role would be or the US may lose interest due to other pressing issues that will distract the US.

Generally, I would not support a US role in Pakistan but US public posturing can be used or to agonize you even more, I would say the US is a smaller menace for Pakistan at this time. So it does not hurt to be friends with the enemy of the enemy despite the fakery.

I think I have a good idea about the game jihadis, the army and the US are playing in Pakistan. Birds of a feather will always fly together. I hope that the US loses interest only after the liberal forces in Pakistan have turned the tide against the obscurantist.

No matter how much you agonize over this issue, you have lost again. Pakistan may take a couple of more years but those who wrote the message will scrub it too.

#135 by HP on March 22, 2006 8:20am PT



Despite being just a routine to get permission for, the FBI higher ups stalled and stalled to allow Samit permission to look in to masoaoui’s computer. He was only allowed to look in there on sept 12. We don’t know what Samit found there, it is classified information.


The FBI is manned by career bureaucrats who are risk-averse. Before 9/11, no one was willing to stick his neck out and risk losing his job because he violated the law. If you thought the FBI was this super efficient agency led by the cream of the crop, you didn`t see their computer system pre-9/11(and even now!!).


2. The famous Phoenix memo. When the FBI agent in Phoenix warned his superiors about Arabs training in flying clubs in Scottsdale and Prescott, Arizona. He was not allowed to proceed with his investigation.


The Phoenix memo was a plea to HQ to initiate an investigation. Nowhere have I read that this request was denied. HQ just sat on it and didn`t do anything about it. As page 2 of the memo indicates, the agent had already started a prelimnary investigation.


4. The CIA was aware that two terrorist had entered the US despite their being on the terrorist watch list. Later it was claimed that the CIA did not pass that info to the FBI in time.


They`re anal about classification..For a CIA brief to be sent to the FBI, the appropriate file would have to go through a bureaucratic reclassification process. In some cases, this is justified. If the feds put out a be-on-the-lookout(bolo) on someone who`s fresh into the field of terrorism, it might set off flags for the bad guys.


5. On Sept 12th or the 13th the FBI released mug shots and names of all terrorist. How did that get that so quickly? Strangely enough, all the pictures were very well taken photograph either out of the passports or by some professional photographers. They did not appear to be pictures from the DMV for Licenses or IDs.


And the source for this is?


6. Why terrorist pictures taken by the security cameras in several airports not released. Yes, they did release Mohd Atta’s picture but why not others. What was so secret about it?


source please..



So what was cooking?


You`re cooking the attribute-to-well-thought-out-plot-for-what-can-be-explained-away-by-incompetence dish.. tell us how it turns out.

HP

so if we accept your thesis that invasion on Iraq was to avenge 9/11 and to scare Jihadis into submission, then do you think that the second objective has been achieved. And suppose that you knew about the second objective before US stepped into Iraq, were you of the same opinion as you are now.

HP: Most of your Bait theory is sound. They probably knew something is cooking but did not know the extent of it. even if this theory is entirely true, that does not prove America did it themselves....while in this baiting game they probably thought terrorists will stage a small scale incident and expose themselves...but what actually ended up happening was in no ones wildest dreams..(although in my view it should have been...they do brainsotrming on this kind of stuff in the government...someone should have thrown this idea in)..not even the guys who did it....even terrorists seemed not to believe towers will totally collapse or they will hit all the planes....may be they thought out of 4, one will succeed atleast.

HP #135 As for the items listed in #135, while factually these are I think by and large true - the fact is that these ``dots`` are much more easily connected in hindsight than in foresight.

Who knows what tomorrow`s problems will be?? as they say, things we worry about generally dont come true, and instead things we never thought would be a problem come true - and so we are at least doing the right amount of worrying. :-)

HP #135 A government does not seek to protect against violence within its borders because it is a saint. It does so because it would not survive the next elections if it is seen to be ineffective against violence.


Example: The main thrust of the Bush campaign strategy in the last presidential elections was that of (1) presenting terrorist violence as a continuing threat, and (2) portraying himself as being better at protecting against a repeat of 9/11 than Jim Kerry.

122,135 sounds plausible...

Apropos #122 by HP

There are several things out there that support my theory of bait.

1. People following the Masoaoui case may have read the FBI agent Samit’s statement in the court just a couple of days ago. He had caught him way before sept 11. Despite being just a routine to get permission for, the FBI higher ups stalled and stalled to allow Samit permission to look in to masoaoui’s computer. He was only allowed to look in there on sept 12. We don’t know what Samit found there, it is classified information.

2. The famous Phoenix memo. When the FBI agent in Phoenix warned his superiors about Arabs training in flying clubs in Scottsdale and Prescott, Arizona. He was not allowed to proceed with his investigation.

3. In San Diego an FBI agent was aware of another terrorist and helped him get an apartment.

4. The CIA was aware that two terrorist had entered the US despite their being on the terrorist watch list. Later it was claimed that the CIA did not pass that info to the FBI in time.

5. On Sept 12th or the 13th the FBI released mug shots and names of all terrorist. How did that get that so quickly? Strangely enough, all the pictures were very well taken photograph either out of the passports or by some professional photographers. They did not appear to be pictures from the DMV for Licenses or IDs.

6. Why terrorist pictures taken by the security cameras in several airports not released. Yes, they did release Mohd Atta’s picture but why not others. What was so secret about it?


All this information is available on the NET. It was reported in the MSM and nobody has come forward to refute any of that.

So what was cooking?

Only reasonable thing to assume out of this is that they had some idea and were setting up the bait. I also think that they were NOT aware of the four planes. The agencies might have thought about just one plane or some other terrorist act but four planes probably did not occur to them.

#123 by ballukhan
Don`t worry about the source. I had read the story before and we knew you did not write that.

There is cover up of the mistakes but I am not sure about other items by that person. He seems to be a regular Bush family hater. So I really don’t know what to make out of his stories some of them appear regular business transactions.

#129 by tahmed32

No government is saint and that includes the US government too. They would not have clandestine agents and secret agencies if they were not playing games. The US does play games all over the world. I don’t think we need to go overboard with that but there is no harm in speculating and thinking aloud.

#131 by masadi

If an opportunity is presented it should be utilized. I don’t think there was any active US involvement. That would be too hard to hide given the nature of Americans and a healthy tradition of whistle blowing (you can argue otherwise). They made a mistake and later tried to cover it up but the admin also took advantage of the terrorist acts.


#127 by bjkumar

You are a jealous, insignificant insect.

#128 by khalid_ahmad

Gujju,

Your mommy did a got job last night. Thanks for sending her over.

Asadi Sahib… You are a hate monger who blames everything on the US elite and provide more reasons to gullible Ummah for sitting on their ass and not doing anything to improve their miserable lives. Jokers like you come dime a dozen. What have you ever done to do any thing positive to improve the lives of Pakistanis that you are so concerned about?

#132 ballukhan

I try not to generalize without evidence. C.W. Mills mentions about the power elite that they have a `community of interests` and thier alliance with each other is `uneasy`. You are correct about the oil prices, massive profits have been made as a result, but those aren`t the only elite, you forgot the military industries and the much higher contracts that 9/11 and the Iraq war has faciliatated, even as social services have been cut. The almost half a trillion pumped into Iraq for reconstruction and war, where has all of that money stolen from the US public (through taxation) and the world (through unfair trade) gone? To Iraq in the form of infrastructure? Of course not, it has lined the pockets of the power elite, even as Iraq is worse off now than it was before. Higher oil prices that benefit the oil elite will not be tolerated indefinitely, it drives up the cost of business of the other corp elite and in this struggle where there is agreement on broad foreign policy policies, every one of these (barbarians) must get a share of the pie.

Re: # 125

My apologies for not providing the source in a hurry.........instead of generalizing upon the interests of the US capitalist elites in their legitimate oil business (and illegitimate Arms business ) like Asadi I was trying to get to look at the thesis regarding the involvment of Bush family in order to undertand seemingly stupid actions like the invasion of Iraq...................and the only thesis that fits in logically is the impact of all this on the oil prices...................the world has to just see the consequential impact upon the oil prices...rest of the BS about the evil ``intentions`` of the US Elites and the religious ``crusades`` by the white man is all pure propaganda in order to demonize the entire population of US and the West and incite riots and violence world wide by the mullahs..............

HP writes <<< The only reason they were not caught before hand was because the agencies either wanted to catch them all or wanted to grab them during the act. But somehow things got out of control and the terrorist beat them out in the game.

The reason the FBI was able to name the terrorist quickly after the 9/11 was that the FBI had some idea about them already.

It is possible that the bait was set with some higher ups involved and when the trail went sour or the terrorist beat the bait and the trap, the admin was so embarrassed that they decided to play safe and not allow the 9/11 commission to investigate the whole saga >>>

HP saheb you are looking at this in the right direction but your conclusion is almost too forgiving of the actual intentions of the US elite given motive. Let me reproduce my post on this that stays clear of ``conspiracy`` but seeks what we all know for fact, in logical progression:

<<< post # 91 by Masadi: Good point (wasif2). Those that perpetuate mythology as ``reality`` often make it out to be the only ``reality`` and discredit all alternatives as loony. It is very easy for them to do that since at their disposal is the corporate media of mass communication and its global reach. If their ``intelligence`` can be so wrong on Iraq (as claimed and acknowledged by them) how can they be ``so accurate`` less than a day after 9/11 (with zero witnesses that were left living) about who the perpetrators were? Either they just made it up (preplanned) or they knew all about the plot (facilitators on the sidelines, knew of it but let it happen) All they found, much after they had already announced and advertised the names was circumstantial evidence (even going by their official mythology).

And of course then there is the ``motive`` factor, and this administration is guilty as hell based on how they`ve used 9/11 for their unrelated adventures. >>>

It is highly unlikely that if the US elite (who by the way were anxiously waiting for a new `pearl harbor` like scenario as HP mentions as well, to execute their barbarism in a new world post the event) who were watching (facilitators on the sidelines, knew of the whole thing but didn`t stop it), could have put and end to it before its execution, given their intelligence and knowledge, if they wanted to. They did not want to stop it, NORAD`s reaction gives support to this assertion as well. Then we have the whole ``motive`` scenario, a new pearl harbor, a `different world` post 9/11, and the famous jubilant reaction of Benjamin Natanyahu in the aftermath as well, which wasn`t presented as such by the corporate media even as they covered isolated dancing incidents by the Palestinian youth here and there.

What we know is that 9/11 could have been stopped on multiple occassions but it wasn`t , given even the biased 9/11 commission report, the multiple warnings and no surprise of the kind that the official BS version lies about. Given this it becomes quite obvious that the execution of it took place not because of the skills of the perpetrators to circumvent the massive US intelligence apparatus but rather it was facilitated by placing no hurdles in their way (if that is what happened rather than active US execution of the whole plan).

So we have three scenarios

1. Official BS version
2. Active US participation and execution of the events
3. Facilitators on the sidelines (knew of it but didn`t do anything to stop it)

It is either 2 or 3, 1 is total BS. Given the multiple points in 3 where nothing was done it becomes next to impossible that the perpetrators were able to dupe them at the very last moment.

masadi #119 you write ``tahmed and Kulharee, I think I have effectively answered you,``

In order to effectively answer, you need to first listen. Listening is not one of your strengths.

HP#122 you write ``all the US could do was to bait and wait patiently.”

The part of this that comes closest to being reasonable is (i.e. ``all the US could do was ....” ). That is, it has already been concluded I think by authoritative sources like the 9/11 commission report that that even before 9/11 there were indications of something brewing. But there was no way to tell how and when the terrorists would attack.

The remainder of what you write (i.e ``...bait and wait patiently.”) is, well, just a conspiracy theory. That is, there is no basis in evidence or in reason to think that any government would actually ``bait`` terrorists into attacking civilians. Or even ``wait patiently``. But then...this is chowk...which is gradually slipping more and more into bs and away from any reasonable thinking.