A Thousand Cuts

#370 by Saminasha Re: # 360

you can`t be serious......

I`m never non-serious. But I`m not sure to which non-serious comment you are referring, Samina Ji.

#369 by ballukhan on April 12, 2006 5:43am PT

Hey Jehadi kid.........How about a Fatwa against FGM???

I would be glad to oblige but I am not a Maulvi.

Let`s ask her instead.



Re statues in Egypt, a Fatwa is never binding. It only clarifies the pure relgious stance, whether practical or impractical, just as the matter of financial Interest which is considered not un-islamic by the same Muftis. It is upto Muslims to accept it or reject it. So even if a Fatwa against FGM is delivered, it would NOT be incumbent upon anyone. Got it Einstein ???

Re: # 360

you can`t be serious......

Hey Jehadi kid.........How about a Fatwa against FGM???


``Fatwa against statues triggers uproar in Egypt
(AFP)

2006/04/05


CAIRO -A fatwa issued by Egypt’s top religious authority, which forbids the display of statues has art-lovers fearing it, could be used by Islamic extremists as an excuse to destroy Egypt’s historical heritage.

Egypt’s Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, the country’s top Islamic jurist, issued the religious edict which declared as un-Islamic the exhibition of statues in homes, basing the decision on texts in the hadith (sayings of the prophet).

Intellectuals and artists argue that the decree represents a setback for art -- a mainstay of the multi-billion-dollar tourist industry -- and would deal a blow to the country’s fledgling sculpture business.

...............................

Wasel slapped a fatwa on watching solar eclipses and another on bullfights, but refused to support rights activists in their campaign to outlaw female genital mutilation``

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Re: # 364

Just because an ordain is not explicit thorough policy/law doesn`t mean it`s not implicit. The very LACK of legal policy that protects women from these manifestations operates much more effectively.

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#361 and other nonsense by ballukhan

I never disputed existence of the patriarchal society. It exists. Period. But the `patriarchal soceity` does not ordain physical alteration of women. Subjugation, yes. But not physical alteration. Never did. These are just superstitions and tribal culture.

Get a life!

Hi Jihadi Kid. How about reading this:

God`s Phallus and Other Problems for Men and Monotheism (1994):

Howard Eilberg-Schwartz

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/letters.html

Journalists` most common questions - and Irshad`s answers - about the ``Manifesto of 12``

* Why shouldn’t Muslims - or any other group - be protected from offence?

Irshad replies: Civilizational progress happens when individuals transgress, even blaspheme. Galileo offended the Church. So did Darwin. Spinoza royally offended many rabbis. The concept of universal human rights offends most religions. Without offence, there is only silence -- and therefore groupthink.

* How did the manifesto come into being for you?

....................

``-- Men have nothing to do with it.

-- Islam or any other religion has nothing to do with it. ``


You have not studied religious books properly kid.......the male god has always rewarded the warring males with slaves and women apart from other bounties of nature.............the male god has always been the great archetypical patriach...........You need to read something apart from the usual tafsirs that you have been picking from your roadside bookstall.............you should read feminist critique of the male god by authors like Mary Daly, Rosemary Radford Ruether, Naomi Goldenberg, Daphne Hampson, Judith Plaskow, Julia Kristeva, and Luce Irigaray.....you can also read `The Creation of the Patriarchy` by Gerda Lerner before you actually start believing in the caricatures that you try to sell to others on this board.............

#359 by ballukhan

Nincompoop ... these health reasons are the `jahalat` reasons cited by `women` reproduced from Amnesty`s findings. Not mine.

There are absolutely no health issues involved in it. These amongst others (read my post again) are the concerns of the victim`s `moms`, not `dads`. They think women`s genitals are ugly, too many folds and crevices and loose flesh hanging around. So some think it actually beutifies their daughters by removing it altogether (infibulation) or by removing or altering the clitoris because they think it is evil (superstitions). Some african societies still poke all kinds of stuff through their cheeks and mouth because they think it `beutifies` them. Their idea of `beauty` is different.

These are the same kind of female superstitions which prompt moms, in this day and age, to take their hysterical daughters to Pirs who beat them senseless to `exorcise the devil` out of them. Many girls die or scarred for life because of this exorcism. Why isn`t there an NGO to educate those women in our very own societies that hysteria is a natural phenomenon and they don`t need to do this?

--FGM is Jahalat ... no more no less.

-- Men have nothing to do with it.

-- Islam or any other religion has nothing to do with it.

-- Women have an absolute right over their own bodies. (But then they must also support abortions of female foetuses by mothers if that`s their choice.)

In short, it is not as easy as it seems. Saminasha has a very powerful point in saying ``men whose power is so absolute, they no longer have to enforce their systems themselves because WE enforce them. They no longer even have to concern themselves with enforcing it.`` I agree. That`s the patriarchal society in essence. But that`s how things evolved and no use attacking men over this state of affairs. It was men after all who fought endless wars throughout centuries for preservation of societies, and died in most horrific manners so that their women and children could be safe. An egalitarian society can resolve all that injustice and that is what we must fight for. Both men AND women, TOGETHER.

No Rgds to you.

Re: # 352

Health benefits? Lol..........I remember the old khala bringing those tabeezs to be worn around our necks so that we remain in the pink of our health................thousands of such prescriptions get peddled by road side bengali doktar sahebs like Zeemax..............let`s hope they get a noble prize for their prescriptions............

Re: # 348

``Is male circumcision also ``female`` ownership of men`s bodies?``

It is even worse...........a sign of ownership of the male body by the male god...........much like the branding of the domestic animals...............that is what circumcision actually is..all in the name of covenant with the supreme........remember the slaves were always branded in order to announce their ownership to the world.............

Now another ignoramus mehnazhyder is dragging Islam into it. What does Wahabiisim or any other sect got to do with it? This is crazy. Please quote some references before alleging things and heaping abuse upon anyone.

She is also basing the entire argument on the extreme practice of complete infibulation which is documented as 15% even in Africa. Her stance appears more of a penis-depravity complex rather than anything else. Reminds of a joke when a little girl asked her mother why didn`t she have a penis instead of just `this`? Her mother replied don`t worry honey, you`ll have plenty of those as long as you have `this`.

Might I add, that this morbid mutilation of a woman`s vulva is analagous in a man to removing several inches of a the penis including the coveted head, and leaving essentially the root with the urethra intact. The feature of infibulation can be reproduced in a male by sewing the scrotal ends together on either side of the raphe.

Yeah, try that for size.....

Obviously this is just a sick form of control.

Its amazing that a vulva can strike so much fear in the hearts of men.

FGM is a heinous crime and the most abhorrant sanctioned act against women.

Sadly, this barbaric practice was introduced into Islam, several years after the advent of Islam, by the popular Wahabbi movement. According to Wahabism, a woman is more pure if she is circumcised, and it is better for her, but not required. Of course, such torturous subjugation of women not only served the Wahabbi purpose, it also allowed its ideology to spread in nations like those within Africa, because their population is very amenable to the concept.

It is disheartening to see this practice not only rampant in Africa, but widespread in Indonesia and Malaysia due to spread of Wahabbi ideology.

And as painful as the pain of a thousand cuts, is the pain caused by knowing that this barbarism is attributed to The Prophet.

Re: # 349

Also, Jawahara, when we honestly engage with what real power is, power that operates from the personal rights of the individual to his political rights-those rights that allow him to vote, work, consolidate wealth, reproduce his familial name-we are talking about men. We are talking about men whose power is so absolute, they no longer have to enforce their systems themselves because WE enforce them. They no longer even have to concern themselves with enforcing it.

Re: # 352

My thesis does not point to ``complete infibulation``, but all degrees of fgm. Again, all evidence points to the regulation and containment of transgressive female pleasure that might threaten to disrupt patriarchical systems.

#349 by Saminasha

Saminasha, your premise seems to be that the purpose of FGM is the male desire to deny women any pleasure from sex and to turn them purely into a child bearing machine in the interest of the patriarchal society.

This doesn`t appear to be so. Your thesis seems to point to complete infibulation which is only 15% even in Africa. 85% is cliterodectomy and cliterodotomy combined. I couldn`t find seperate figures for these categories.

The cited reasons for the above are:

... the perception in FGM-practising communities that women`s unmutilated genitals are ugly and bulky. In some cultures, there is a belief that a woman`s genitals can grow and become unwieldy, hanging down between her legs, unless the clitoris is excised. Some groups believe that a woman`s clitoris is dangerous and that if it touches a man`s penis he will die. Others believe that if the baby`s head touches the clitoris during childbirth, the baby will die.

Ideas about the health benefits of FGM are not unique to Africa. In 19th Century England, there were debates as to whether clitoridectomy could cure women of ``illnesses`` such as hysteria and ``excessive`` masturbation. Clitoridectomy continued to be practised for these reasons until well into this century in the USA.

However, health benefits are not the most frequently cited reason for mutilation in societies where it is still practised; where they are, it is more likely to be because mutilation is part of an initiation where women are taught to be strong and uncomplaining about illness. Some societies where FGM is practised believe that it enhances fertility, the more extreme believing that an unmutilated woman cannot conceive. In some cultures it is believed that clitoridectomy makes childbirth safer.

Now where is it a man`s fault in all of the above? It seems women concerns to me.

But doesn`t detract from the issue, I hasten to say. It has to be stopped, just as all other types of ignorance and jahalat.

Rgds

``A global action against FGM cannot undertake to abolish this one violation of women’s rights without placing it firmly within the context of efforts to address the social and economic injustice women face the world over. ....``

Nahid Toubia, A Call for Global Action.

Abortion is another crime committed against the female body - more than half of its victims are women.

Re: # 347

Jawahara,

Once again, I`m glad you`ve decided to research FGM, but in this case I agree with the interactor who pointed out that your research should have taken place before the writing of the article.

There are questions I have about the scenario you have raised-from the notion that girls who live in areas in which FGM is practiced are completely unaware of it to your actual depiction of the practice (the prose itself). Your piece itself seems to be directed at women or mothers who betray their daughters by ambushing them into the mutilation.

Which on one level is okay I guess, if you are aiming to point out that a community of women support the local practice of this crime. In refusing to flesh out the male complicity of FGM, this piece meanders around the sentiment of how bad FGM is.

No one disputes the evilness of forced fgm...I believe the most demonstratively outraged have exhausted their thesauruses for ``heinous``. What is not be acknowledged is the context in which fgm takes place.

Ultimately fgm is an extreme (not counting wife burning, honor killing) extension of patriarchical power over women bodies. It operates on the same notion that the body of a woman is valued for its ability to reproduce patriarchical heirs, an agent of consolidating patriarchical familial wealth and power, property that will not threaten the interests of the patriarch (father, husband, son, cousin, nephew, uncle, brother). What you havent pointed out is that fgm is that reality made indisputedly clear-there is no smokescreen, ``nice`` appeals to religious duty/cleanliness that can support it.

Jawahara, who benefits when their daughter, wife, mother, aunt, niece is rendered so that she will not want to have sex if she survives the fgm procedure?

Who benefits ultimately when her own body becomes a site for pain and childbearing only, whereas her husband is able to orgasm?

Who benefits when his daughter does not bring ``shame`` to the family for being damaged, unclean, uncontrollable goods passed on to another patriarchical family?

Who benefits when the male family members of these women do not see fit to use their vested power -at local and govt. levels- to protect their daughters from these communal notions of respectable womanhood?

Who benefits when yet another practice conducted on the bodies of women is not criminalized and the person who is punished for it through her own mutilated, regulated, fertile or infertile body?

#347, Saminasha {``our power cut out ``}
It should have been cut out a long time ago.

{``...2. The concept of FGM, like virginity, etc. is based on the notion of patriarchical ownership of women`s bodies.``}

Now that makes no sense at all. When did virginity become FGM? Is male circumcision also ``female`` ownership of men`s bodies? How many Muslim (and Jewish) mothers will let their sons be as God created them?

{``3. The lack of patriarchical interest, and what I mean by this, is the actual reformation and criminalization of this crime by power vested men (from family fathers to ministers of state) is something I place SOLELY at the feet of men. Why the bodily integrity of women has become subject to legal policy that benefits patriarchy is something they have to answer to. ``}

Lady, please take responsibility for your own actions - or inactions. On the one hand, you emphasize female empowerment, on the other hand you cop out with this defeatist attitude. Don`t you agree that it is the women who enforce FGM in the first place? Men have much more important things to do than to keep track of which girls in which village have had the mandatory operation. There are other more serious things to occupy men - alcohol, politics, cattle, goats, bhang, camels, sports, concubines, and yes, additional wives. If women wanted to put an end to this cruel, ugly, and ruthless ritual, they could have easily done it by themselves. If you need help, you will find that the vast majority of men are willing to help and stamp out this disease.

Re: # 344

Jawahara,

I`d written you a rather detailed response and our power cut out so it has been lost. In brief:

1. My quoted paraphrase of your comment was meant ironically. In reading your response, I don`t think my paraphrase was off base.

2. The concept of FGM, like virginity, etc. is based on the notion of patriarchical ownership of women`s bodies.

3. The lack of patriarchical interest, and what I mean by this, is the actual reformation and criminalization of this crime by power vested men (from family fathers to ministers of state) is something I place SOLELY at the feet of men. Why the bodily integrity of women has become subject to legal policy that benefits patriarchy is something they have to answer to.

If I get the time, I`ll break it down for you. In the meantime, I am choosing to ignore the flippant and condescending tone with which you dismiss the fact that patriarchy is served everyday by men (and to a much smaller scale) who, with women, refuse to question and reform it.

#345 by Jawahara

“So, the only way to actually stop FGM is for religious figures to get involved.”

I am kind of confused with your reasoning throughout the article and the ensuing debate. Though people can get stuck and hit a mental block but unfortunately, your approach seems to be misleading.

First, again I would like to clarify so that you understand my position on this issue that I am not trying to defend the religion. I think many of society’s ill are due to excessive emphasis on the religion.

You first claim that a religion and its proponents help perpetuate this practice but then you turn around and ask the same people to take a lead in stamping out the problem. This position creates a contradiction plus it eliminates a good portion of the African population that does not cater to a particular religion.

You also don’t provide any reference to show that religious leaders have enough influence on Africans to change a social custom practiced all over Africa transcending many religions and geographical boundaries in the continent.

If something is practiced for thousands of years, religious figures and the leadership is probably as convinced as common folks are about the validity of the practice. So they are not the people to ask to take a lead in the issue. In fact, they would be a major stumbling block in overcoming this practice.

The best approach is for the Governments in Africa and the NGO or other international organizations to come forward and work on a plan to educate people as well as the religious leaders to understand the futility of the practice.

Something that has been practiced for more than thousands of years would not be simply removed by some sermons in the mosque. The right approach would be to make a concerted effort that co-opts religious figures.

Since it is not a life threatening or a hunger related issue, it may well nigh be impossible to throw tons of money on the issue. So the major players to reduce the problem would be the respective governments in different African countries and not some donors from the far away lands.

Thanks.

Now on to the Islam/hadith issue. Whether or not we agree that FGM is encouraged by Islam, the fact remains that the people doing it *do* equate it with Islam and they perpetuate it as a religious (and cultural) observance.

So, the only way to actually stop FGM is for religious figures to get involved. It doesn`t matter if ten of us sit here and frantically try to prove that it is or is not Islamic. Which is why I said ``hadith or no hadith,`` FGM has to stop. But since it is carried out by people who try to live by their religion and are religious, religious leaders are the only people they might consider credible. No western-style feminist or concerned organization can do anything. But religious leaders in these communities can and should make a difference. Obviously till now, religous leaders have either abetted or at least ignored FGM which is why it has survived through the centuries.

Saminasha, I really shouldn`t have to give punctuation and bibliographic reference lessons to a grown person but here goes. *sighs* Quotation marks are *only* use when you are directly quoting someone. So, the inaccurate, out-of-context and over-simplified statement you put in double quotes was wrong. You paraphrased me...and that too badly. Ok, that`s over.

Since you did quote in correctly in your last posting...I do stand by those statements which are actually mine.

Yes, it`s very tempting and very satisfying to make men the enemy. God knows I did that in my 20`s and it felt great. But as a feminist and a humanist I know that systems (patriarchial ones, in particular) are the enemy and not men. That, to me, is too simplistic and too knee-jerk a reaction for complex issues. That would be like saying that FGM should be blamed on women because they are the ones who plan, abet and perpetrate this heinous act. Men have no place in it and are shut out of the process, in fact, in some instances, the father is told to butt out. What is the problem is a system, with the complicity of men and women who allow this to happen, who encourage it to happen. Another example of this are dowry deaths in India, where the most awful atrocities (including burning the bride alive) are most often perpetrated by the women of the house, mostly the mother-in-law.

Women are not always victims. We are multi-dimensional people like men, and like men we too are part of the systems of violence and evil. I, for one, don`t want to take the easy way out, place the blame somewhere and move on. Ultimately, this is not for playing the blame game but to actually do something.

For actual change to occur, men and women need to work together. Making men the enemy loses us valuable and powerful (yes, they do have more power in most cases) allies.

As always, this is my personal opinion, borne out of my own observations and experiences. Others may feel and act differently....and of course, disagree.

Re: # 342

Your opinion is just that-your opinion.

#341

US is not El Salvador. Abortion for covering up should be illegal; only the cases with legit needs, and that too with the court approval. People have access to contraceptives here. Choice cannot mean different things to different people.

Criminalizing Reproductive Rights for Women:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html

#325,
We have an idiot who makes it his aim in life to go around annoying, boring, and bothering people with khamkhwa ke posts, totally unrelated to the topic. This useless person compiles all kinds of information, relevant or not, to get brownie points in justifying his chapakhanatia chaprasi existence.

``Just tell me how best can FGM be eradicated from the face of this earth.``

Do you really want that Bro Zeemax? Of course the action options have been discussed in great detail already. Let me look thru them again and get back to you later with my choices. Thanks for the relief on the arbitration jon. Good night now.

MannyD

Please state your position in clear terms. It is obvious you are not unbiased so you cannot be the arbitrator.

Now please. Just bulleted points. Just tell me how best can FGM be eradicated from the face of this earth.

Thanks.

From #269: ``Zeemax: Because sub-saharan Africa is too far gone, irretrievably if you ask me. I think you should worry more about feeding them otherwise they will go back into slavery or extinction. It is a question of priorities you see. ``

Yeah, the Americans said about the same thing about India too in the sixties. Let Indians die, concentrate on saving Pakistan.

What is your final answer Zeemax Pai? Is the sub-saharan Africa too far gone or are the somalian beauties beckoning you with their ancient civilization?

#334: ``FMG or no FMG, they would end up like that anyways.``
Yes, that is my opinion.
Oh, so FMG did have a hand in their ending up like that? How so?
If it did not, why throw in those pictures in the mix of variables?
Jawhara`s article or the so called feminists did not bring in the famine. You did.
The ball is in your court to show the relationship.

Me a racist? Nah, I would say the samething about Koreans, Danish or Japanese.)

`Gangrene? When did anyone say FMG was to remove gangrinous parts to keep the victim alive?`

I said that it is not the case of Gangrene. I think you agree with that assertion, based on your statement above.
Arbitration is possible only if both parties agree to it. Threads and articles on Chowk die with or without everybody agreeing on everything. What do you say Samina?

``all I`m saying is that they can still survive with this barbaric custom if they are alive to get this practised away and done with and banished forever, just as Waris Dirie`s campaign. Got it Bhra?``

OK Zeemax Bhra. I can live with that, but let me play devil`s advocate and ask your permission to work in parallel on banishing this barbaric custom forever if that did not imperil the more important and larger rescue effort.

MannyD:

I take strong exception to your clearly racist remark :

FMG or no FMG, they would end up like that anyways.

Do you think they are lesser creatures than you and me? And it is their destiny to remain like this? And ... Why? What`s the problem? Are they inferior because they were born in sub-saharan Africa? Ethiopia was a proper civilization and a nation state when no such concept existed. The horn of Africa consists of the most beutiful and intelligent people, indeed gifted people, in the entire world. Have you ever met anyone from there? This is just infuriating. Tsk ..... Tsk ....

#331 by mannyd

You are completely wrong in not just a few but all of your assertions. C`mon, scroll back and examine each party`s position in a non-partisan manner.

Gangrene? When did anyone say FMG was to remove gangrinous parts to keep the victim alive? Yaar, all I`m saying is that they can still survive with this barbaric custom if they are alive to get this practised away and done with and banished forever, just as Waris Dirie`s campaign. Got it Bhra?

And the pictures in #328 are from the sub-saharan famines, not of those deformed for begging. Deliberate deforming by parents takes place in the sub-continent. In Africa, nature helps them in this task for free.

#321 by mannyd

Ok. MannyD, you volunteered to be the arbitrator. Now you`re stuck. Kindly read your verdict after examining both sides` position which is clear by now. So that this article/board can die in peace.

No one is here to score any points, least of all me. Let the feminists win if their position can eradicate this practice. My heart bleeds as much if not more over this stuff, but it also bleeds over the babies with gouged out eyes in my backyard.

Rgds

#327 Zeemax Bhai: So it was Waris Dirie`s hogwash, not yours. FMG has no connection to winning beauty contests, does not appeal to aspiring beauty contestents. The picture that you posted is that of an attractive person, but it could have been an `Elephant woman`. I think we agree so far. Thanks for expanding the sound byte.
As you explained, FMG has nothing to do with the victim`s religion also. I agree.
I am taking one more step.
FMG has nothing to do with keeping the victim alive medically. It is not a gangrene setting in the female genitals that prompts FMG. I know a very dear and close person, who lost a right arm, because it was necessary to keep him alive. That does not seem to be the case here.
Your pictures in #328 for comparison have no bearing on FMG, do they? FMG or no FMG, they would end up like that anyways. They look like abducted children, deformed for begging. Please correct me if I am wrong so far.

#326 by Bina_Shah

Bina. Thanks for your very well balanced view. You said:

....Other people on this board might think you are a lost cause, Zeemax, but with all due respect I think you have the intelligence and sensitivity to understand exactly what`s at stake here. I would urge you to reconsider your stance not so that the feminists can score a victory but so that you can come one step closer to understanding what some women in our world have to go through, and perhaps add your voice to those that believe this practice should be eliminated completely from the earth....

Bina, I have more sensitivity than you could perhaps imagine. I come across as blunt and insensitive because I discovered long ago there`s no point in ooh`ing and aah`ing over all the evil heaped upon in the world on innocent victims ... you just need to get on with doing something about it. I take a wider view. That`s all.

This does not begin or end with FGM, it is pervasive upon all kinds of disadvantaged mankind. Misery is not exclusive or dished out in larger proportion upon females as feminists make it out to be. Indeed, males are much more prone to things like murder, dismemberment, disembowelment etc. in the same societies under reference here.

Social ills are not descended from God. These are products of ignorance. Indeed, the enlightened societies of now had similar or worse practices like burning alive of witches etc. These disappeared only with prosperity and enlightenment.

Now, I agree FMG is barbaric, cruel, evil, all of that, and should be done away with. where my beef lies with the feminists is on `HOW?`

Feminists say it should be banned through legislation. I say that won`t work because the underlying reasons will remain un-addressed. Feminists say I`m stupid. I say I`m not. I say do it as China did. Leave human rights aside and just uplift and educate the poor. Social improvement will follow and archaic customs/practices will automatically disappear. Centuries-old customs cannot be removed through protests nor with legislation without addressing the human condition.

Anecdote from Bangkok:

A European acquaintance met me in Bangkok for business, and later invited me to the Bangkok condo he kept for his visits. There was this pretty little teenaged girl at his place barely 15-16 years of age keeping him company. When I was ready to leave, he asked his chauffeur to drop me first and then drop the girl at the `hostel`. I was curious and asked him `did she live in a hostel? He said yes, and because he was leaving the next morning, he had to get her dropped.

I found out on the way, and through later conversations with the acquaintance, that the girl was Laotian, and he had bought her outright from her parents when she was 13 for $ 3,000, and there were many lodgings in Bangkok dedicated for such business where they kept the bought girls for a fee, chaperoned them wherever they went, if allowed to go out depending on instructions of the `master`, and kept ship-shape for his next visit.

The girl was a `slave`.

Rgds

Posted on DM’s board too….
Insert Africa for India where necessary.

While we talk about removing the skin, let us also talk about another group of babies that have no choice at all. Their skin is not removed. Their skulls are crushed and they are killed in cold bold.

There were reports that Dutch Doctor have been helping with aborting fetuses when test proved Down syndrome in unborn babies since 1997.

Now, if Holland was not enough, it is a well known fact that over 80% women go for abortion in the US too when they find physical deficiencies or the Down syndrome in their unborn kids.

“It has become socially acceptable to abort any baby who disappoints the expectations of the baby`s parents for any reason, as the increasingly common practice of sex-selection abortion indicates.”

I can deride Indians/africans for this atrocity but India/africa is still an extremely poor country and there may be compelling social issues that force certain sections of the population to practice female infanticide/FMG but what are we going to say when we encounter this appalling behavior in the most advanced, educated, and socially conscious country where the fking Supreme court has legalized baby killing regardless of the gender.

Yes! I am talking about the US; The Mecca of abortions, the world capital of Killing unborn babies. In India female infanticide maybe an old tradition because of poor social and economic conditions, in the US babies are killed because some men or women got carried away just a few days, night, weeks, or even months ago. In this country, abortions are performed any fking time. First trimester? No problem. Second Trimester? No problem. Third trimester? No problem at all.

They are killing babies just days before they are due in this country and we have assholes calling that a choice issue. Who made the choice of having unprotected sex? It was not the unborn. A man and a woman chose to have some fun and who pays the price? The poor unborn whose right of choice has been usurped by a fking Supreme Court decision which does not recognize a healthy and kicking baby in a womb as human until he/she is born.

Roughly, one thousand abortions are performed in the US daily. Yes, DAILY! Not yearly and not monthly and not weekly. They kill a thousand babies every day!

One can calculate how many babies have been killed in the most advanced country in the world since that fateful decision. That number is in Millions. Yes Millions of babies!

Yes, in certain cases abortion is fine and should be legal but nobody should have unfettered access to abortion in a civil society. Show the reasons why you can’t have a baby and then let the courts make a decision.

Now see the previous post in comparison with this:


And this:

#321 by mannyd

....Hogwash Zeemax Pai. How do you know the Somali girl had a dead clit? No bragging now. If dead clits lead to winning beauty contests, why does not every aspiring beauty do it?....

How do I know? Because Waris Dirie says so on her website. The second part of your question MannyD Bhra... I guess is just mis-directed sarcasm.

But this just reinforces my statement, now rephrased (because people are havings lots of difficulty getting the `point`) as ...:

An alive FMG victim is better than a non-FMGd dead one till the time she can be both alive AND nonFMGd. So keep her alive first.

I read the post last night where Zeemax clarifies his stance: ``A woman alive is better than a dead c***``. It really disturbed and upset me...

Doesn`t Mr. Zeemax understand that when this procedure is enacted on little girls, they often die of it? Those that are left alive have a terrible life, and any act of sexual intercourse or chlidbirth can lead to infection, hemmorhage, and death. It is probably worse than a rape, because you can heal from a rape but you can never heal from this kind of mutiliation. In fact, in my opinion, performing this procedure on a small child or young girl is akin to killing her... slowly.

The discussion caused me to do a little bit of research on the issue. Apparently FGM started in Egypt, in the times of the Pharoahs and spread in popularity all over the Northern African region. People in most cultures have done it: Christians, Muslims, Jews, Coptics, pagans. FGM you might think is strictly an African procedure but the Victorians used to do it to women in order to stop them from masturbating.

So, Zeemax`s assertion that ``a woman alive is better than a dead c***`` just makes no sense to me... the issue is not ``As long as African women survive, this practice is minor in relevance``. Not at all. It`s about cruelty to girls. A terrible cruelty that is completely unnecessary, but more than that, has horrible and deadly consequences for its victims.

Other people on this board might think you are a lost cause, Zeemax, but with all due respect I think you have the intelligence and sensitivity to understand exactly what`s at stake here. I would urge you to reconsider your stance not so that the feminists can score a victory but so that you can come one step closer to understanding what some women in our world have to go through, and perhaps add your voice to those that believe this practice should be eliminated completely from the earth.

Re: # 301

[First of all, I regret to inform you that by using profanity, vulgarity, and crude references, you managed to trivialize this very important issue that Jawahara has so capably articulated.]- salim chauhan.

This person has the cheek to blame others of profanity, vulgarity and crude references when he himself uses profane language for the wife of prophet mohammad and then counters that he as a shia has the license to insult ayesha bint abu bakr, the prophet’s wife.


``#37 A Hero of subcontinental Muslims, Sultan Mahmood of Ghazni
on April 6, 2006 3:37pm PT
By the way, is it true that Ayesha Baker took on a Hindu lover because no Muslim would dare touch her?``


#182 by Salim_Chauhan on April 8, 2006 4:47pm PT
#174, Listen, you idiot, as Shias, we have a license to question her motives against Hazrat Imam Ali. Also, in Islam there is no official post for Mrs. Prophet - except for the first and real one of his wives - Hazrat Khadija. :)

Uh I had heard about this a few times before. Just never realized that it still existed. There was a book out a few years back.. I cannot remember the name of it, however, it was biography of an Arabic princess in which she witness this happening to young 7 yr old in Eygpt.. I am baffled by the fact that people still act so ignorant.. Well, the people that are committing these horrid crimes are aware that it is not right, morally and/or politically, therefore it is done absolute secrecy.. So asking for proof from you is simply..stupid.

Re: # 321

Manny,

Good one, lol.....

Jawahara ji: I hurried thru your article and the interacts. I was aware of the problem, because I read of an asylum case of a Sudanese mother and daughter in the USA. Thank you for not making it a feminist issue.
It does sound racist, but there are expanding areas of Africa full of savagery; Idi amin keeping body parts in refrigerator, AIDS spreading like wildfire because supposedly one cure is to have sex with virgins, famines on the horizon because white farmers have been made to flee from rape and murder, warlords interfering with outside humaintarian help.
I was very glad that nobody from the subcontinent had a personal experience to write about.

Some of these people have been braught into the USA recently. President Bush airlifted 15000 of illeterate Africans from the jungle into furnished apartments. So your observation `FGM is actually on the rise, as those who practice it, bring it with them as they make their Diasporic journeys to other lands.` probably means there is more awareness and reporting than before. It is not that the practise is attracting new followers.

Welcome out of the slammer, both of you. What a disappointment though for the ban in the first place?

#319: I volunteer Samina Ji. I can withstand the cruelty of untangling Zeemax`s reasons.

#320: Hogwash Zeemax Pai. How do you know the Somali girl had a dead clit? No bragging now.
If dead clits lead to winning beauty contests, why does not every aspiring beauty do it?

Ok never mind. My position remains:

A woman alive is better than a dead clit.

Look at that Somali model girl who was judged the most beutiful girl in the world. Was she better dead?

Later ...

Re: # 318

Not interested. I wouldn`t subject an intelligent person to the task of having to untangle the snarl of reasoning you see fit to post on this board. That`s just cruel.

#317 by Saminasha

What about the arbitrator offer?

Re: # 313

I really have nothing else to discuss with you. The burden of proving your logic, analogies, similies, evidence rests with you.

I suggest since you`ve wasted my time with your specious line of argument that you come up with something legitimate hella fast.

I propose SR. He is fair. He didn`t circumcise his own son. Proof enough?

#313 by Saminasha

I think we need an arbitrator here. Do you have anyone in mind? I`ll accept the Arbitrator`s decision, whatever it is. Otherwise we`ll get nowhere with this.

Re: # 306

Outlawing violent policies against women never work?

Extraordinary.

zeemax Sahib,

re: 302

A. I wrote: 2) Deny the violence of FMG:

Zeemax: ``I never denied it. There are so many types involved here i.e. clitorodotomy, excision, clitorodectomy and complete infibulation. I was all along referring to the most widespread practice i.e. clitorodotomy which is analogous to male circumcision and not to be confused with FMG because it is not mutilation. However ALL interactors except Urstruly treated it as the same thing....``

First of all, while the wonderful world of patriarchy seen fit to devise a variety of ways to mutilate/alter/surgical remove various parts of female genitalia, the majority of these surgical crimes involve the clitoris. Amnesty International:

``...The vast majority (85%) of genital mutilations performed [in Africa] consist of clitoridectomy or excision. ...``. Therefore your distinctions serve little more than a smokescreen to what fgm is about: the removal of female sexual pleasure.

I wrote: 4)...pleasure ARE a human right.:
T

zeemax writes: ``... threshold of what a human right is and what is not changes with changes in the human condition. Bodily pleasure is a human right for Somalis right now just as owning a cell- phone is a human right for me; because I got everything else figured out. For most of sub-saharan Africans, their first human right not being preserved by anyone is basic-survival. Of-course mutilation is wrong, no one said it isn`t, but first things first...``

Your equation of owning a cell phone and a clitoris is truly extraordinary. Can you explain this analogy?

If you possess an intact penis, is that the same thing as my owning a cell phone? What does having ``got everything else figure out``? mean logically wrt a cell phone?

Once again you attempt to claim that African women must choose-and why is your argument limited to African women and not North African or asylumed Anglo American women in the 1950s-between starving to death and their clitori. Can you explain to us the logical reasoning behind these claims? Because, once again, this is bizarre to me and I`m guessing most intelligent people.


I wrote: 5) Claim truly pathological false dilemmas:


zeemax writes: ``...Starvation of sub-saharan africa is not a false-dilemma. If the author has pulled out such vivid images of FMG being carried out on a young child, then images must also be evoked of mothers right in our own backyards maiming and gouging out the eyes of their own babies in order for them to become a begging asset, a bread-winner, which they otherwise would never be if allowed to grow up like everyone else. Just see the implications of this on society as a whole...``

Again, specious logic. What is being attempted here is a wholesale generalization of this practice in Africa and the socio-economic contexts in which the practice takes place. Nawal el Saadaawi`s family was not indigent, nor on the brink of starvation, and yet both she and her sister`s genitals were mutilated. I have not read the conflation of both issues in any reading on FGM, so the introduction of starvation into this discussion serves only in some areas, not all.

If you have chosen the peculiar argument that only one issue can be addressed at a time, I don`t have an answer to the bizarreness of this claim.

I wrote: 6) SHAME them by referring to masturbation:

zeemax writes: ``...Yes. Accepted with apologies. It wasn`t entirely unprovoked, however...``

Sahib, I`m not amused by your creepy winking. The slimeball factor of your comments, your ``conquests``, your insistence on questioning the right to body integrity is really your problem-one in which you continued to try to involve several interactors. It was quite embarrassing to see your descent and then the male apologists for it.

Re:


``....Once in the pre-modern times in the animal market of Shenzhen, I saw a number of beutiful little deer for sale crawling around on their fore-legs because their hind legs had been snapped like twigs. When asked why through a translator, the vendor replied that otherwise they would run away. When I persisted with ``why doesn`t he tie them down with rope?`` His simple answer was he didn`t have any rope.

Before I start teaching that vendor about `cruelty to animals`, I need to first get moral myself and get him the means to buy that rope without sacrificing his meal. In case of Somalia, this rope is the primary moral obligation for `means of their basic survival`. This is not the same as aid; it is sustainable `means`. ...``


If you find it to difficult and inconvenient to compare women with other human beings, again, thats your problem in trying to excuse the inexcusable. Girls and women are not ``deer``, ``whores``, ``flowers`` , ``clits``, ``territory`` or whatever similiac evasion you`d like to construct them as. They are human beings whose bodies are being carved up so that the insecure fathers, brothers, cousins, nephews, sons and husbands of their famillies can regulate them from what they look like to every last sensation they feel.

Deal with it.

Re: # 311

exactly Bina. So nice to see a sista onboard.

#309 by Salim_Chauhan

I`m only here to learn. And I have indeed learnt a lot from other interactors. Like I have learnt something from your post. Agreed word by word.

Thanks.

Zeemax,
You are a good sport for not blaming the editor for her obvious even-handedness. I have noticed your interactions on several boards. You, my friend, like my arrow-festooned posterior, have a tendency to get very involved in your debate and do engage in rebuttals that get judged equally with the initial provocation of your opponents. At least, now we have a much fairer administration on Chowk that looks at BOTH the aggression and the response. With great difficulty, my friend, I have learned that it is better to take the high road. Never respond to vulgarity with more of your own - then you are just like them. Instead, maintain your cool and use logic, polite words, and determined composure to defeat and expose those profane and vulgar people. Please take my advice, because I am much better for it myself. Good luck and happy interacting.

Zeemax,
You are a good sport for not blaming the editor for her obvious even-handedness. I have noticed your interactions on several boards. You, my friend, like my arrow-festooned posterior, have a tendency to get very involved in your debate and do engage in rebuttals that get judged equally with the initial provocation of your opponents. At least, now we have a much fairer administration on Chowk that looks at BOTH the aggression and the response. With great difficulty, my friend, I have learned that it is better to take the high road. Never respond to vulgarity with more of your own - then you are just like them. Instead, maintain your cool and use logic, polite words, and determined composure to defeat and expose those profane and vulgar people. Please take my advice, because I am much better for it myself. Good luck and happy interacting.

#301 by Salim_Chauhan

Salim, I too have no qualms about Farzana`s leadership. I think she is a fine leader; fair and even handed; and did the right thing in sending us both to the coolers to cool off.

Nevertheless, I have suggested that some improvements need to be made in case of heated discussions getting out of hand, and other measures may be taken like filtering all interacts by the parties involved on that particular board on that particular day, which will have the same effect, instead of banning them outright on ALL boards.

But this is off-topic. We can keep it in mind, nevertheless.

Saminasha, Bina, Jawahara, ZehraJ

Saminasha said ...After all this, I want to ask all the interactors listed in this post: what do possibly think you have to teach any of us?

I missed that little bit. Following is the crux of the matter.

Reproduced from DM`s board, which is about even worse things done to the cause of womenhood:

DM,

Thanks for an excellant article AND many more thanks for dragging neither Ummah nor Islam into it like Bibi jawahara on the other board, and calling it as it is indeed, a socio-economic problem.

The misery of human condition is so vast that if one would even think of starting to address it, you wouldn`t know where to begin. Social ills are an obvious outcome of undelying causes such as the dowry custom in this case as you pointed out. And why the dowry? It is a premium the bride`s family has to pay because a good groom is hard to come by. And why is that? Because the grooms have to be sole-providers and the bride is supposed to live happily ever after without having to contribute anything economically in the union after that initial `premium` paid. And it goes on and on.

The point is, it is impossible to rid social evils by attacking these `directly`. Outlawing and banning these seldom works because incentives for the same remain. The answer lies in overall rural uplift, economic prosperity and, most importantly, education.

Rgds

#299 by ZahraJ

Thank you. I`m doing fine. But your wishes are appreciated. `That` particular area anyway finds me instead of me trying to find it. There`s so much of it going around.

But no more on that, otherwise FV will boot me again.

SR,

See I can do this? And it is after 9:00 ....:-)

FV,

You have referred to ``biggest bane of Chowk -- trivialising.``

Now, if some author is spreading misinformation through lack of his/her own information, I would still slam the author. I don`t agree that the only views on the central theme are to be discussed and not on how and why an author wrote it, as well as the overall tone and structure; if it is found malicious such as that other article on FP re the Pak Army.

So please some clarification on this.

Thanks.

#297 by Saminasha

I have read FV`s iLog on this, as well as your concerns. To clear them both I will respond to your questions which should make my position on this matter sufficiently clear:

2) Deny the violence of FMG:
I never denied it. There are so many types involved here i.e. clitorodotomy, excision, clitorodectomy and complete infibulation. I was all along referring to the most widespread practice i.e. clitorodotomy which is analogous to male circumcision and not to be confused with FMG because it is not mutilation. However ALL interactors except Urstruly treated it as the same thing.

4)...pleasure ARE a human right.:
The threshold of what a human right is and what is not changes with changes in the human condition. Bodily pleasure is a human right for Somalis right now just as owning a cell- phone is a human right for me; because I got everything else figured out. For most of sub-saharan Africans, their first human right not being preserved by anyone is basic-survival. Of-course mutilation is wrong, no one said it isn`t, but first things first.

5) Claim truly pathoological false dilemmas:
Starvation of sub-saharan africa is not a false-dilemma. If the author has pulled out such vivid images of FMG being carried out on a young child, then images must also be evoked of mothers right in our own backyards maiming and gouging out the eyes of their own babies in order for them to become a begging asset, a bread-winner, which they otherwise would never be if allowed to grow up like everyone else. Just see the implications of this on society as a whole.

6) SHAME them by referring to masturbation:
Yes. Accepted with apologies. It wasn`t entirely unprovoked, however ;-)

It is one thing to see misery on TV with exclamations of ```Hai` Allah``, but quite another to see it up-close with live characters in real time. It sort of changes your point of view.

Once in the pre-modern times in the animal market of Shenzhen, I saw a number of beutiful little deer for sale crawling around on their fore-legs because their hind legs had been snapped like twigs. When asked why through a translator, the vendor replied that otherwise they would run away. When I persisted with ``why doesn`t he tie them down with rope?`` His simple answer was he didn`t have any rope.

Before I start teaching that vendor about `cruelty to animals`, I need to first get moral myself and get him the means to buy that rope without sacrificing his meal. In case of Somalia, this rope is the primary moral obligation for `means of their basic survival`. This is not the same as aid; it is sustainable `means`.

I have no doubt that vendor would not be carrying out the same practice anymore. It is because the Chinese Govt resisted all pressures and delegated notions of human as well as animal rights to secondary priority, and just got on with providing the `means` of first basic survival and then relative prosperity. Only now it can and does talk about human rights. Did they `trivialize` the `cruelty` issue? In my opinion they did no such thing.

Other anecdotes on how China did it are available-on-demand.

Sincerely,

zeemax

Saminasha #295, {``If Madame Editor Farzana Versey is not ``disgusted`` (her term used in her ilog) by ``zeemax`s`` usage of this term (what ``SR`` calls ``letting the djinn out of the bottle`` once ``provoked``), then we have a serious problem in the vision of the leadership here at chowk.

Let us all bear witness. ``}

Saminasha,
I was an eye-witness to the entire sad saga. First of all, I regret to inform you that by using profanity, vulgarity, and crude references, you managed to trivialize this very important issue that Jawahara has so capably articulated. You have a unique capability in turning whatever issue that is presented into the ``I am the bad, rude, crude, and lewd Saminasha`` show. Zeemax should not have aided you in this kabuki dance and Farzana`s even-handed approach in sending both of you to the showers was a wise decision. Instead of offering an apology to all of us, you are blaming your own ludicrous behavior as a ``serious problem in the vision of the leadership here at chowk.`` Nothing could be farther from the truth and your own behavior is the most appropriate antidote to your irrelevant, malicious, and insidious charge. Please behave.

Jawahara,

Here are the passages that were paraphrased:

``...Let`s stop making excuses, trying to pass the buck, trying to put a psuedo-science spin on this barbaric practice. It is what it is, and hadith or no hadith, it is a cruel and painful way to control women`s sexuality and their bodies.

Having said that, I`d like to make clear, that I don`t see men as the enemy here. That would be a knee-jerk reaction. The villains here, are the system, the secrecy and the ignorance that lets FGM thrive and grow...``

Female complicity in this violence against women is one thing. But how the patriarchical framework in which this violence is constructed (the female body as ``unclean``, sexually ``uncontrollable``, subject to patriarchical control, policy and action, rationalizations of such, discourse around, lack of institutionalized legal response to and prosecution of) is waved away evades a very uncomfortable reality here-that around gendered violence.

Re: # 293

Welcome back. Are you positive that your experience involved `that` particular area of female anatomy? With age and weight, some men can have difficulty with their eye-sight and memory. As a result, they tend to exaggerate. I hope that was not the case. In any case, I am sure after the break you are ready to roll. Good luck.

Saminasha, if you`re going to quote me (with quotation marks and all), at least, follow the first rule of references, and make it an accurate quote. I have no problem standing behind what I say but not behind what others (inaccurately) say that I wrote. Please point me towards this supposed *claim* of mine: ``men arent responsible for fgm at all`` (Jawahara Saidullah)

Re: # 296

9. correction: 1, 4, 5, 6

Re: # 289

SR,

More rationalization of zeemax`s behavior?

Maybe this is part of the problem of why violence against girls and women continue unabated?

1. Treat female genitalia as male territory and present textual images of it and misogynistic discourses around what is ``unnecessary`` about it (Urstruly)

2. Deny the violence of FGM (Ustruly, Zeemax)

3. Deny the violence of STEALING another human being`s determination of their own body.

4. Heckle women interactors by attempting to SHAME for maintaining that a. bodily integrity (the unmutilated body) and pleasure ARE a human right. (zeemax)

5. Claim truly pathoological false dilemmas of starvation (one process of emotional, physical and psychological assault) with another one (fgm) and insist that interactors choose which one is less damaging. (zeemax)

6. Refer to the genitalia of women interactors and attempt to SHAME them by referring to masturbation. (zeemax)

7. Be completely clueless to these tactics and have the GALL to insult those who identify 1, 4, 5, 6 (Farzana Versey)

8. Demonstrate the inability to determine the DIFFERENCE of m.o.`s in posting a whole and healthy vagina with a mutilated vagina (Farzana Versey)

9. Rationalize 1, 4, 5, 5 as ``boys will be boys``

10. Claim that ``men arent responsible for fgm at all`` (Jawahara Saidullah)

After all this, I want to ask all the interactors listed in this post: what do possibly think you have to teach any of us?

Re: # 293

Dear Chowk Community,

Please note that the interactor known as ``zeemax`` has continued to refer to the practice of FGM ( a practice that a majority of interactors on this board have expressed codemnation against) as ``clit chopping``. He has also commented that he is disappointed that ``there is no [more] fun chopping clits here [on chowk]...``

If Madame Editor Farzana Versey is not ``disgusted`` (her term used in her ilog) by ``zeemax`s`` usage of this term (what ``SR`` calls ``letting the djinn out of the bottle`` once ``provoked``), then we have a serious problem in the vision of the leadership here at chowk.

Let us all bear witness.

#289 by SR

...not too may years ago, even good-looking...

Thanks. But what`s a few extra pounds between friends? The old feminazi-busting cylindrical rocket as always shoots great. It ROCKS!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

SR:

I am sure Zeemax will appreciate your friendship :)

Thank you for a nice post.

Re: # 282

That`s sweet :)

[haal mera tha jub batar tab na huee tumhein khabar ]

Am I reading something wrong here? Shouldn`t it be ``bud`tar`` ?

#288 i too was proud if billy..esp after he took such a beating for somalia black-hawk down.
he showed some courage..i will buy him a cigar any day.

Zahra, Bina, Jawahara

I appreciate your comments and assure you that I do not endorse or support any crass discourse by anyone nor do I favor any kind of forced mutilation of body parts, whether genital or otherwise, in either girls or boys. To put my money where my mouth is, I have steadfastly refused family pressure to have my son circumcised. He is now seven. It is his body and therefore not my decision to make. As an adult he will be free to get circumcised or pierced and studded or whatever. (Piercings, btw, though they are a form of mutilation also, and I personally dislike them -- for myself that is, are a voluntary undertaking and therefore I do not oppose them.)

My primary objection against FGM (or even MGM for that matter) is the principle of lack of voluntary choice by the victim who is usually a child. Even if it were not cruel and harmful (as many say MGM is not), still I would oppose it on that principle.

Now as for zeemax and his comments. I do not speak for him. You`ll have to direct your questions to him. I posted his side of the story because I believe that everyone has a right to present their case. It was sent to me by email so I posted it (since it committed no new linguistic offense). I am not saying he is right or wrong becuase this was a debate I did not wish to engage in. But we are hopefully all civilized people and most of us believe that even mass murderers, rapists and child molesters are entitled to present their own defense, so why not zeemax? Despite being rude to some people in his messages at times, he is a fine gentleman -- most of the time, any way. If you met him over lunch, believe me, you`d like the man for certain. He is charming, kind, liberal, politically correct, and up until not too may years ago, even good-looking. You just have to catch him before six o`clock in the evening, and certainly before nine, when that ``Djin`` comes out of its bottle. After that, you better watch out. :))

...SR

#287, Yes, I am very thankful to Bill Clinton and the US for that humane gesture.

#286 thats like asking for a huge rally in Lahore thanking amrika for intervention in Kosovo

Just one observation about this horrible, painful, and criminal practice of FGM. While Indian/Pakistani males have been blamed for every thing ranging from satti to MukhtaraN Mai and from bride-burning to polygamy, isn`t it time to appreciate the fact that these same men have kept the curse of FGM from becoming a local practice? It`s not that great an accomplishment, considering the other horrible rituals, but it is something to be thankful about. Just a thought. :)

Thanks Bina, for your comments. Well said.

I don`t want to repeat anything that`s already been said many times on this board. But I read SR`s recap of the arguments and I must admit I allowed myself a wry smile (although FGM is nothing to smile about).

From my reading on the subject, FGM in girls is the equivalent of taking a boy`s penis, cutting the head off, and perhaps sewing some parts of the flesh up so that his erection is restricted when he grows up. This is done so that his sexual urge is controlled, he`s seen as desireable and clean on the marriage market, and he isn`t likely to cheat or be promiscuous as an adult male.

I do recall reading about a Hadith where the Prophet was asked about this practice. My memory is very poor, so I don`t want to be quoted on this, but I believe what he said was similar to what`s been discussed previously, which I won`t repeat, again.

I`ve always understood FGM as an African tribal tradition that has gotten mixed up with Islam over the centuries, as it`s practiced in African countries with Muslim populations. It has carried over into the Subcontinent with certain groups whose ancestries can be traced back to Africa through Yemen.

Zeemax`s question (according to SR) that the issue is only about the ``luxury of having a c***`` is very wrong. Because in this kind of procedure/operation/torture, little girls are mutilated and maimed. Many die. Others are disfigured for life. It isn`t some ridiuculous feminist nakhra, as I get the feeling you imagine it is. It`s an issue that is really on the level of other injustices against women, including karo kari, acid-throwing, nose-cutting and so on.

Perhaps the only intelligent thing I have to add to this section is that not many people in Pakistan are aware of this practice, but those of us who are friends with women in the Bohra community have heard about it. Still, it`s a very hush-hush practice, not something you`d get invited to, as you do when a little boy`s circumcision is taking place in the interior.

Unless mothers realise or are made to realise that daughters ar