Jawahara Saidullah April 3, 2006
#280 Posted by ballukhan on April 7, 2006 12:46:18 am
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#273 Posted by bjkumar on April 6, 2006 8:04:20 pm
#271 Madani sahib
That is a highly inspiring account.
Very true. Sometimes people draw imaginary boundaries and set limits for themselves. It is more of a female characteristic - reinforced by the society.
Like a great American President once said - one has little to fear but fear itself.
I agree that daughters are sources of absolute delight!
#272 Posted by ZahraJ on April 6, 2006 7:17:08 pm
#271 - Ahmedmadani - Keep on being a good father! I am sure you will set an example for many others who have yet to learn the basics.
SR:
Let`s be fair here. Your guy was displaying way too much *machismo* that was not even good for his health. I recommend that you forward the following consolation to him from the sweet feminists and the tough feminazis.
~Pee`ja Ayyaam Kee Sakhtee Ko Bhee Hans Kur Zeemax
Ghum Ko Sehnae` Main Bhee ~~~ Qudrat Nae ~~~ Ma`zaa` Rakha Hae.
Thanks.
SR:
Let`s be fair here. Your guy was displaying way too much *machismo* that was not even good for his health. I recommend that you forward the following consolation to him from the sweet feminists and the tough feminazis.
~Pee`ja Ayyaam Kee Sakhtee Ko Bhee Hans Kur Zeemax
Ghum Ko Sehnae` Main Bhee ~~~ Qudrat Nae ~~~ Ma`zaa` Rakha Hae.
Thanks.
#269 Posted by SR on April 6, 2006 4:15:06 pm
zeemax ... saminasha... Chowk bannishment...
I am one of those who have long held that editorial control on the discussion is essential and conduct unbecoming ought to have consequences so that the discussions have some modicum of grace. But some people, for instance, Pak-Bharat dushmani club fans, have neither sense nor shame and the pollute the environment with their juvenile hate. I wish the editors start banning the whole lot of them for two days each. Maybe then Chowk could once again become a civilized forum for discussion.
Since I was not going to enter into a discussion on this subject myself, I simply read the piece (which I thought was quite well done) and left. I did not follow all the intricate threads and sub-threads, but only looked at the responses of a few people. Then I noticed that there was a two-day ban on some individuals so I got curious and asked around. I got zeemax`s side of the story which I am appending hereunder.
...SR
Re Chowk, well the conversation went something like this:
Zeemax: What`s all the fuss about? How is female circumcision (of the hood) any different from male circumcision for reasons of pure hygiene? Why is female circumcision of women in sub-saharan africa more important than killing them altogether through karo/kari, suti, exploding stoves all around us in Pak/India?
Saminasha: And why not?
Zeemax: Because sub-saharan Africa is too far gone, irretrievably if you ask me. I think you should worry more about feeding them otherwise they will go back into slavery or extinction. It is a question of priorities you see.
Saminasha: And your point?
Zeemax: My point is, Mem Saheb, why`re you agitating about FGM in sub-saharan africa which is not worse than killing them altogether. Is it because it is fashionable to talk about FGM but not feeding them? Or is it because life is not worth living without a foreskin anyway so might as well let them die.
Saminasha: Because it`s like cutting off your dick.
Zeemax: No it is not. Ever heard of vaginal orgasms? And removing the hood enhances pleasure, not reduce it.
Saminasah: (After some insults, namard etc) And your question was?
Zeemax: My question is ``Why`re you worrying about clits of little girls in sub-saharan africa when they are starving to death``. You are crazy and so is the author of this article.
(zeemax posted list of countries/statistics from Amnesty International)
Saminasha: Let me cut off your dick and see whether life is worth living then.
Zeemax: So your answer is life is not worth living without a clit?
Saminasha: (some insults, accusation of creating a false dilemma, posts definition of false dilemma).
Jawahara: (Some conciliatory talk about Islam and FGM)
Zeemax: Islam has nothing to do with it. This is a cultural/tradition problem regardless of religion. (posts Amnesty statistics). You are taking advantage of Urstruly because he has a propensity for defending everything thrown at Islam even though it may be totally irrelevant.
Jawahara: There are millions of nerve endings in foreskins (complete description, male/female) so can`t understand how removing it enhances pleasure.
Zeemax: It is because of (in bold lettering) Preventing premature ejaculation so as to give you feminazis a good 45 mins dig.
Saminasha: (some insults).
Zeemax: You clit-less wonder... Do you really think all those non-FGMd somali girls are running around dodging bullets trying to get laid for sexual pleasure and not for something to eat?
BANG ... BANNED ... (Both zeemax & saminasha) ... :-)
Later a few posts ... accused of tyrying to trivialize the issue.
What`s your ``Insaaf``? I mean ramanujan and rsridhar are calling each other Behn`Chod/Maader`Chod all across the other board. Is calling someone a `clit-less wonder` worse? Perhaps it is to a feminazi.
I am one of those who have long held that editorial control on the discussion is essential and conduct unbecoming ought to have consequences so that the discussions have some modicum of grace. But some people, for instance, Pak-Bharat dushmani club fans, have neither sense nor shame and the pollute the environment with their juvenile hate. I wish the editors start banning the whole lot of them for two days each. Maybe then Chowk could once again become a civilized forum for discussion.
Since I was not going to enter into a discussion on this subject myself, I simply read the piece (which I thought was quite well done) and left. I did not follow all the intricate threads and sub-threads, but only looked at the responses of a few people. Then I noticed that there was a two-day ban on some individuals so I got curious and asked around. I got zeemax`s side of the story which I am appending hereunder.
...SR
Re Chowk, well the conversation went something like this:
Zeemax: What`s all the fuss about? How is female circumcision (of the hood) any different from male circumcision for reasons of pure hygiene? Why is female circumcision of women in sub-saharan africa more important than killing them altogether through karo/kari, suti, exploding stoves all around us in Pak/India?
Saminasha: And why not?
Zeemax: Because sub-saharan Africa is too far gone, irretrievably if you ask me. I think you should worry more about feeding them otherwise they will go back into slavery or extinction. It is a question of priorities you see.
Saminasha: And your point?
Zeemax: My point is, Mem Saheb, why`re you agitating about FGM in sub-saharan africa which is not worse than killing them altogether. Is it because it is fashionable to talk about FGM but not feeding them? Or is it because life is not worth living without a foreskin anyway so might as well let them die.
Saminasha: Because it`s like cutting off your dick.
Zeemax: No it is not. Ever heard of vaginal orgasms? And removing the hood enhances pleasure, not reduce it.
Saminasah: (After some insults, namard etc) And your question was?
Zeemax: My question is ``Why`re you worrying about clits of little girls in sub-saharan africa when they are starving to death``. You are crazy and so is the author of this article.
(zeemax posted list of countries/statistics from Amnesty International)
Saminasha: Let me cut off your dick and see whether life is worth living then.
Zeemax: So your answer is life is not worth living without a clit?
Saminasha: (some insults, accusation of creating a false dilemma, posts definition of false dilemma).
Jawahara: (Some conciliatory talk about Islam and FGM)
Zeemax: Islam has nothing to do with it. This is a cultural/tradition problem regardless of religion. (posts Amnesty statistics). You are taking advantage of Urstruly because he has a propensity for defending everything thrown at Islam even though it may be totally irrelevant.
Jawahara: There are millions of nerve endings in foreskins (complete description, male/female) so can`t understand how removing it enhances pleasure.
Zeemax: It is because of (in bold lettering) Preventing premature ejaculation so as to give you feminazis a good 45 mins dig.
Saminasha: (some insults).
Zeemax: You clit-less wonder... Do you really think all those non-FGMd somali girls are running around dodging bullets trying to get laid for sexual pleasure and not for something to eat?
BANG ... BANNED ... (Both zeemax & saminasha) ... :-)
Later a few posts ... accused of tyrying to trivialize the issue.
What`s your ``Insaaf``? I mean ramanujan and rsridhar are calling each other Behn`Chod/Maader`Chod all across the other board. Is calling someone a `clit-less wonder` worse? Perhaps it is to a feminazi.
#275 Posted by ballukhan on April 6, 2006 10:57:43 pm
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#267 Posted by sattar2 on April 6, 2006 11:54:47 am
Ummah did their part …
They posted a sketch (not a picture … cough, cough) of the female genitals and explained the intricacies of FGM in light of hadith. This was very educational …
The explained that are diligently focused on fighting quadiyani fitnah in Africa … which was an honorable trend started by father of Allama Shah Ahmad Noorani, which the brave son continued to his death. Furthermore, FGM is a cultural issue where confrontation is best avoided. Women’s issues are not that critical. Getting Africans to check the religious box on passport forms has higher priority …
This was followed by an article on how ungrateful and manipulative women should be brought into submission as they corrupt the society. And that if men are abusers and wife-beaters, it is the fault of their mothers.
What the fuck …????
+++
HP, you may argue that the author was unnecessarily abrasive towards the ummah. However, ummah downplaying the cause and being uncouth is very much a different matter. I don’t think one can justifiably associate ummah’s uncouth response to author’s alleged abrasiveness.
Scout, the picture you posted was worth a thousand words.
Jawahara, these are important issues and should be brought to attention.
Zeemax is gone for a couple of days … but he needs to keep in mind that while FGM ... or abuse of women, for that matter ... is not the most critical issue mankind faces today, it is a highly important one, and therefore deserves due consideration.
#268 Posted by ZahraJ on April 6, 2006 3:23:57 pm
Re: # 267
Sattar:
How come the Ummah shared all these revelations with you? Did a representative took you in confidence? Such such batao? :)
Note: Did you send your wife to the defensive driving course? I hope all is well in that regard. :P
Sattar:
How come the Ummah shared all these revelations with you? Did a representative took you in confidence? Such such batao? :)
Note: Did you send your wife to the defensive driving course? I hope all is well in that regard. :P
#266 Posted by jang on April 6, 2006 10:52:11 am
mishraji,
i think the religious aspect is weak, considering the higher prevalnce is in punjab haryana belt which is less bound by brahminical religion ..most of them dont perpaps know the shraddha bussiness..and its more prevalent amongst the richer and higher socio-economic strata.
me suspects that the behavior needs to be associated with shame..mothers, sisters and ``friends`` give advice on how its ok to get an abortion ..if it becomes a shameful topic then it will be less easy to give such advice. TV serials prolly will do the trick.
i think the religious aspect is weak, considering the higher prevalnce is in punjab haryana belt which is less bound by brahminical religion ..most of them dont perpaps know the shraddha bussiness..and its more prevalent amongst the richer and higher socio-economic strata.
me suspects that the behavior needs to be associated with shame..mothers, sisters and ``friends`` give advice on how its ok to get an abortion ..if it becomes a shameful topic then it will be less easy to give such advice. TV serials prolly will do the trick.
#264 Posted by khare on April 6, 2006 10:15:18 am
#263 by wiseguyin
Many have already done this. And long time back. It happened at least in Maharashtra in late 60`s . No one protested even though it was publicized. I think such customs, even though followed, people do not quite believe in them any more. Let alone whether a son or daughter does, many do not even do this and many large Hindu communities do not even know what it is...although they have heard the term ...probably in stories and mythology.
Many have already done this. And long time back. It happened at least in Maharashtra in late 60`s . No one protested even though it was publicized. I think such customs, even though followed, people do not quite believe in them any more. Let alone whether a son or daughter does, many do not even do this and many large Hindu communities do not even know what it is...although they have heard the term ...probably in stories and mythology.
#262 Posted by pmishra2 on April 6, 2006 8:39:26 am
#248 jang
[quote]
there is also a religious pressure to produce a boy becuase only a boy may do hindu religious death anniversary ritual (shraddha) else you will be hungry in the heavens
[quote]
Agreed, this is a GREAT outrage. Every hindu guru/leader/community member needs to stand up and say: we will STOP this nonsense - my daughter will perform these ceremonies for me.
The economic and social side is bad enough, at least ``soft`` factors should be gotten out of the way....
[quote]
there is also a religious pressure to produce a boy becuase only a boy may do hindu religious death anniversary ritual (shraddha) else you will be hungry in the heavens
[quote]
Agreed, this is a GREAT outrage. Every hindu guru/leader/community member needs to stand up and say: we will STOP this nonsense - my daughter will perform these ceremonies for me.
The economic and social side is bad enough, at least ``soft`` factors should be gotten out of the way....
#263 Posted by wiseguyin on April 6, 2006 8:47:51 am
Re: # 262
Do u have a daughter ? If yes, would you ask her to do shraddha for you (as a will) ?
In case you have a son also - would you still ask your daughter to do the ceremonies ?
Just curious.
Do u have a daughter ? If yes, would you ask her to do shraddha for you (as a will) ?
In case you have a son also - would you still ask your daughter to do the ceremonies ?
Just curious.
#271 Posted by ahmedmadani on April 6, 2006 6:28:08 pm
Re: # 263
I have only daughters. I use to mis nonexisting son with time I became normal and daughters became daughters and sons. They have gone their way and I many times think of them and gone time and feels what good work done by me and my wife. One day my youngest daughter came to me for help in her college work and helped her. Then my wife came said to her you become like your father smart. My daughter said he is man and smart and I am just girl. Then i told her why you say such things you are same as men or better. Then she asked me do I really think. I said I am sincere in saying. I told her , I am telling you are good as any other man , but if you feel you are not then you are not.
I have only daughters. I use to mis nonexisting son with time I became normal and daughters became daughters and sons. They have gone their way and I many times think of them and gone time and feels what good work done by me and my wife. One day my youngest daughter came to me for help in her college work and helped her. Then my wife came said to her you become like your father smart. My daughter said he is man and smart and I am just girl. Then i told her why you say such things you are same as men or better. Then she asked me do I really think. I said I am sincere in saying. I told her , I am telling you are good as any other man , but if you feel you are not then you are not.
#261 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 6, 2006 7:29:02 am
Aslam644 #259, {``re #238 by hamidm2, since you are the official chowk JESTER and CLOWN stick to your job, let the chowk editors do theirs``}
Aslam Bhai :)
I resent your relinquishment of this official title to hamidm2 sahib. He is very good, quite witty, and sometimes humorous - but what am I, chopped liver? :)
Aslam Bhai :)
I resent your relinquishment of this official title to hamidm2 sahib. He is very good, quite witty, and sometimes humorous - but what am I, chopped liver? :)
#260 Posted by jawahara on April 6, 2006 5:04:53 am
ZahraG, the last paragraph was perhaps a reflection of my desire to see something positive come out of the Ummah. However, it`s more than that. Secret rituals like FGM which have been folded into religious practice and which the clergy actually supports, or at least ignores, in those countries, cannot be fixed by outside influences. Amesty International (not one of my favorite organizations but still) or whoever cannot fix it, no one else can, expect Muslims. Anyone, not part of the Ummah, and who tries to circumvent religion will be met with distrust about their motives. There are organizations in most countries that practice FGM who protest it and write about it, but they have very little power because those that can make the change do nothing or actively encourage it.
So, in my mind, only an educated Ummah, speaking as one and globally can actually make the change. Whether that happens or not is anyone`s guess. Maybe once all the cartoons threatening Allah and Mohammad are done away with....
So, in my mind, only an educated Ummah, speaking as one and globally can actually make the change. Whether that happens or not is anyone`s guess. Maybe once all the cartoons threatening Allah and Mohammad are done away with....
#274 Posted by ballukhan on April 6, 2006 10:40:20 pm
Re: # 260
``So, in my mind, only an educated Ummah, speaking as one and globally can actually make the change.``
I agree, and the only way to ensure that no one gets in the way to change is by ensuring that the we take away the locus standi of these mullahs by emphasizing upon secularization of the civil laws........that means the mullahs do not have the first right to legislate on what Ummah can and cannot do.................
``So, in my mind, only an educated Ummah, speaking as one and globally can actually make the change.``
I agree, and the only way to ensure that no one gets in the way to change is by ensuring that the we take away the locus standi of these mullahs by emphasizing upon secularization of the civil laws........that means the mullahs do not have the first right to legislate on what Ummah can and cannot do.................
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