Kibbutz Criminals

Re: #431 by Zeena on March 26, 2006 8:54pm PT

Most effective anger-management/language-solving solution; which i already have recommended to sumbudy else, would work on these 2 too.

Interesting threads

Re: # 453

Sorry to see the crap here Zeena. I do see tons of personal attackers but chows admin seems to be enjoyin them too.

However, many of these indivs are known for their personal attacks and creative use of language which for them creates a new culture --and guess what? They expect all to enjoy such civil conversations.


I guess poor felas feel that ``either this way or the highway`` [ Ps. that`s the either/or fallacy, no mediation exists]

It is simply impossible to believe that any one who has seen evidence of the outrageous acts conducted as part of the holocaust can remain an unaffected outsider. It is simply impossible.

I do not believe the author holds anti-Semitic views. The article ``Chasing Bloodhounds`` validates that observation, too (I admit that it was written a while ago - but I don’t believe the original well has gone absolutely dry).

As articles go - the current one is not that bad. The author quotes the two professors but their thesis is not her thesis. What the professors have done is much worse - they have tried to pin blame on a whole community and tried to make that community a villain - a bit like blaming the victims for getting raped. This author can at worst be accused of using terms like the holocaust in a rather flippant way - for which she was taken to task by at least by this interactor (and perhaps by others).

The way I read it, in this article, there is an indirect attempt to convince the ``wayward`` Muslims worldwide - whoever they are - assuming such a distinct entity actually exists - to learn from the ``success`` of the Jewish people and perhaps emulate some of their ``techniques`` and positive virtues. The ``rising above it`` aspect has been emphasized, too.

However, it comes across a bit like a car salesman trying to convince you that the Joneses next door - who are supposedly your eternal competitors - have already bought the car - and you look foolish by comparison, so better do something about it - i.e., buy my car! Now THAT ought to make the maulanas of this world really turn around and suddenly see her ``wisdom`` - one can see them slap themselves and go - ``Darn, a PR firm was all that I needed!``

Yet, whatever the eventual chances of such a ``sneaky`` approach actually being successful - in a circuitous way - the intentions of the author can not be considered anything but benign.

The tragedy of the holocaust was not a Jewish tragedy - it was a human tragedy. Every one of us who considers oneself human must never belittle it - for belittling is the first step toward marginalization of the tragedy and a potential paving of ways for its return at a later time. This author - if she had actually bothered to go through the detailed chronology that I put up earlier - should have been able to see the analogy with several contemporary events in her own country. Her decision to instead filter that particular interact was mind-bogglingly naïve - and probably made under the exhortation of the hate pots of this world!

Re: # 481

``1. The only facts, Farzana has used are that a paper by two clowns and some book by a jew Cohen was published. Can anyone deny these two simple facts? Everything else is her opinion.``

Read my previous post, go read Cohen`s book, and then come back. I DO deny these facts the credibility you shower them with.

``2. Throwing out some Jewish names, I guess is what she calls lending intellectual validity to her unabashed anger at the jews. It is done in the hope that maybe somone out there does not like what one of these Jew boys did. I for one like them all.``

Once again, read my previous post. If ``intellectual validity`` is unleashed via personal attacks and severly broad generlizations then there isn`t a finer example of ``intelectual validity.`` While we are at the subject this ``intellectual validity`` can further serve as the foundation for the Western worlds hatred against Islam, can it not? Surely there is no difference if all the ``Westerners`` come together and use Islamic personalities to paint their own picture and version of Islam - one full of negative generalization. Would they be correct to do so? They would, if you claim it is ``intelectual validity.``

``3. She is too good to pass off her opinions as `facts`. Show me where she did that and I`ll show you a way to nail jellow to a tree. ``

What is this kindergarden: ``I am rubber you are glue, everything I say bounces of me and sticks to you.`` Nail jellow to a tree? Go read Cohen`s book and you`ll see facts.

Good post bjkumar.

I have a clue. She is one step removed from nihilism as me :-)

#480 by mannyd

Yes Farzana is extremely difficult to decipher.

#480 by mannyd

[.... a paper by two clowns and some book by a jew Cohen was published. Can anyone deny these two simple facts? Everything else is her opinion. ]

I must disagree that those two individuals are clowns - they are well-reputed academics. The anti-defamation league web-site which provided its comments on the article has noted that. That is why it did not dismiss the commentary in an off-hand manner. (By the way, anti-semitism is not a new phenomenon in the USA! They have seen stuff like this countless times before.) When such attacks come from the mainstream - they are more cause for concern.

However, being a well-respected academic (or a lawyer, or a writer, for that matter) does not free one from the clutches of prejudice of one kind or another. But those who are professionals - be they scientists or writers - try to make a clear separation of their personal bias and the lack of objectivity we all have as human beings, from facts - and do not deliberately pick and choose facts which only bolster their ``case`` while disregarding other facts that point differently - and certainly they do not make a virtue of such lack of objectivity. Lawyers, who must do it as a professional requirement and face the compulsion of winning a ``case``, have been often compared to weasels and other lowly creatures. For writers, there is no such compulsion - and perhaps professional integrity and ethics demand the exact opposite.

This writer and this site has been egregiously indulging in the worst possible abominable behavior of this nature while the pack of clowns that frequents this site and the pack of fat-cats which pays for this site (but is too weasel to stick its own neck out and dumps the onus on a relatively less ``smart`` but higher-profile editor) sits mute like - I must hold back the very strong metaphors which are coming to my mind - suffice it to say that in my view, they sell their souls cheap and that too for a doomed cause - both in the writing itself, as well as in the response to the interacts - by selectively suppressing the Jewish point of view (using the ultimate dictatorial powers of chowk brahmins). It was a particularly low-class act to let the Hate Pot garbage sit there and accumulate while filtering out the eye-opening tabulation of facts related to the holocaust!

A particularly low-class act!

#479 Viskash Bhai: Yes, you can call me a fan of Bibi Farzana. She is a true P/R artist and very good to use innuendos, imaginary slights and persecution to cause a stampede of well wishers to kiss her ouchie and make the pain go away.

My problem with Farzana`s articles most of the time has been just understanding what she is saying. Please see her last article and my comments here.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006398&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

Compared to the last article, there is a fairly clear scope of work here.

1. The only facts, Farzana has used are that a paper by two clowns and some book by a jew Cohen was published. Can anyone deny these two simple facts? Everything else is her opinion.

2. Throwing out some Jewish names, I guess is what she calls lending intellectual validity to her unabashed anger at the jews. It is done in the hope that maybe somone out there does not like what one of these Jew boys did. I for one like them all.

3. She is too good to pass off her opinions as `facts`. Show me where she did that and I`ll show you a way to nail jellow to a tree.

I once considered Farzana Bibi as a latter day Madre-Millat. It was an understatement. The lady is reaching for the stars and the brass ring. Islam is in danger like never before and she has honed her P/R technique to a nice Goebbles sheen in India.

2.

Re: # 478

You and everyone else, Mannyd, is a victim of take all facts without questions.
I repeat my problems with Farzana`s arguments:

1. She forgot to mention Lucky Lucianao - ITALIAN NON-JEW! ...Lansky(the Jew Farzana points her finger at) WAS NOT THE ONLY MAN behind ``murder inc.`` Rich Cohen is NOT the ``be all end all`` of organized crime expertise in America.

2. What does the mentioning of Jewish individuals have anything to do with your argument? Steven Spielberg? Kissinger? Allen? Miller?

3. She shouldn`t state such non-supported opinions as ``matter of fact`` statements.

Maybe, I shouldn`t demand a response but Farzana craddles herself with readers who take her opinon as matter-of-fact. Which essentially defeats the purpose of Chowk.com.

Think about my critique of Farzana`s argument, Mannyd. Farzana in evey post at Chowk and eslewhere has looked down upon Communalism and other monolith type labels in an effort to propogate a more individualist & independent thinking. Her advocation of an Islamic monolith DOES the exact opposite, my friend. I hope you see that.

Where would Jinnah be if he did what I am asking him? I don`t know Mannyd, maybe - for the sake of your suggested argument - millions of life would have been spared if there were compromises and concessions. That is how I would see it. You might see it as Muslims would be slaves to the majority Hindus, or that Pakistan the Islamic Qom might never have been born, and.... These are all matters of opinion which boils down to what you advocate: communalism(Islam, Hinduism, or whatever) vs humanism(individualism).

Everytime a community, be it Jews, Muslims, Christians, or whatever, turn inwards in so-called ``unity`` they in-turn refuse to see and respect everyone outside that circle. It is not a matter of what groups of people do, rather the end result of communalist thought - superiority is asserted to maintain uniquness. THIS IS THE ROOT OF ALL COMMUNAL VIOLENCE.

I`m sure, farzana, and all her fans are offended that I questioned her opinion being passed off as facts. Sorry, but deal with it, Farzana`s opinions are not supported by facts. Her hook of anti-Jewish personalities does not hardly qualify as a credible piece of evidence.

Viskash # 472, 473, 475:

I agree with Farzana ``....it is not to demand a response. The writer may further the dialogue if s/he wishes to at solely their discretion.``

You not only demand a reponse, but have the audacity to ask for `voice your opinion, make concessions, and TRULY BRING change by showing two points of view, yet you only serve yourself rather than an intellectual debate.` She is here to serve her greater community, the Ummah with P/R. It is crystal clear from her closing statement:

``........you need to have a cohesive and committed community to create such an indelible image.
There is a lesson in this for the Muslims to acquire the two ‘P’s: public relations and a good dose of persecution. ``

Close all ranks, Oh Muslims. Circle the wagons. Become a cohesive and committed community like the jews.
Farzana can provide the Public relations and can lead Ummah to the promised land but the Ummah must first provide a good dose of persecution like losing approximately 50% of their population, give or take a few millions.

Please be thankful that you are allowed to roam on Chowk freely. Do not question or interrupt Farzana`s real work. She is not here to talk to Hoi Polloi or explain her reasons for her views.

Where would Jinnah be, if he did what you demand of Farzana Bibi?

Laurel and Hardy thought that Saddam even with nuclear weapons was basically a nice guy and could be deterred like the Soviets.

``John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, ``An unnecessary war,`` Foreign Policy, Jan/Feb 2003

---

In the full-court press for war with Iraq, the Bush administration deems Saddam Hussein reckless, ruthless, and not fully rational. Such a man, when mixed with nuclear weapons, is too unpredictable to be prevented from threatening the United States, the hawks say. But scrutiny of his past dealings with the world shows that Saddam, though cruel and calculating, is eminenty deterrable. .......``

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/walt.htm

And now the heavy guns of peace would rather turn on the Jews than risk the wrath of Arab anger as quoted by Farzana in her attempt of intellectual validity of anti-semitism. Israel is the only country in the area, where Arabs can vote freely.

``The combination of unwavering US support for Israel and the related effort to spread democracy throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized US security..``

Looks like the dynamic duo has been consistent at least so far. Gandhi could have taken lessons from these two.

Professor Mearshmear has been right in the past. In an interview even in 2002, he had the foresight to say this about Laden Sahib:

``There`s no doubt that there are huge numbers of people in that world who hate the United States, and a significant percentage of those people are willing to either sacrifice themselves as suicide bombers or support suicide bombing attacks against the United States. What we have to do is we have to ameliorate that hatred, and we have to go to great lengths to win hearts and minds. I don`t believe that you can do that with military force. I think some military force is justified. If you could convince me that Osama bin Laden and his fellow leaders are located in a particular set of caves in Afghanistan at this point in time, I would be perfectly willing to use massive military force to get at those targets and to kill all of the al Qaeda leadership. But I think, in general, what the United States wants to do is not rely too heavily on military force -- in part, because the target doesn`t lend itself to military attack, but more importantly, because using military force in the Arab and Islamic world is just going to generate more resentment against us and cause the rise of more terrorists and give people cause to support these terrorists.``

USA should have talked to Laden Sahib or true Ummah representatives like Farzana Versey.

``Haji Mastan, Yusuf Patel, Dawood Ibrahim, Abu Salem, Iqbal Mirchi, Chhota Shakeel`` are her nemeses but they know precious little about Tehran or the Jews` persecution complex and have no capability to intellectualize destruction of Israel. Why are people asking Farzana often about these Muslim gangsters? Does it make any sense to have Farzana wear the millstone of her nemeses around her neck, while the world now knows that a jew ran Murder inc and Siclian Mafiosi were mere patsies, wrongfully framed?

Whatever Farzana, stop hiding behind your cop-out. Let`s face it you ARE MAKING PERSONAL ATTACKS ON JEWISH CELEBRITIES WITHOUT ANY BASIS and as a result the only assumption left is a personal vendetta against Jews.

For claiming you are a non-practicing Muslim you solely swing to the opposite end. (well, i guess it is true that regardless of what you put in front of it, the noun stays the same: bad car, good car, non-working car - they are all still cars). You are a Muslim even if you claim to be a non-practicing one. And you should face the fact that it irks you that a Muslim is being disenfranchised and NOT a human being. However, progressive you claim to be or are, you prioritize your religion over humanity.

You are quick to make groups of people into monoliths. Sure you point out some great problems but you continue on ALL of your rants without offering any clear solution. Not once did you criticize the role of Jordan(60% Palestinian population) for not having an active role in ANY peace process, surely they play a role in Islam monolith you wish to create? You take your facts and paint a picture which is false and one-sided. The sad thing about such an argument is YOU LOOSE CREDIBILITY entirely. You never make any concessions.

You, it seems, like the majority of Muslim population, complain about situtaions to which you have offered no solution to. You only play a one-sided game. For the sake of intellectual discussion and the premise behind Chowk.com - you present an opinionated harangue. Your purgative reportoire only serves your intellect.

DISCUSSION WITHOUT COMPROMISE IS FUTILE, and it seems you have brought this futility into Chowk.com. Intellectual discussions now play a submissive role to your entertaining internet persona: ``Oh, that Farzana, she`s really something....`` Welcome to the Arundhati Roy club, Farzana. Heavy criticisms, no compromise, no solution.

I`m sure this post violates some code or another in your ``InterAct Guidelines`` and you, the editor and persona al-mighty of Chowk.com, with your trigger happy finger will be sure to delete it soon. I hope you understand that I`m not making personal attacks, rather I am attacking your argumentative style which truly achieves nothing other than re-stating the problem in your own words.

You have a great platform to voice your opinion, make concessions, and TRULY BRING change by showing two points of view, yet you only serve yourself rather than an intellectual debate.

The idea of discussion at Chowk is to respond with your views on the writer`s work; it is not to demand a response. The writer may further the dialogue if s/he wishes to at solely their discretion. Besides, there are several responses by the writer in which a reader might find the answers, instead of trying the old bait trick and spamming the board.

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#470 by tahmed32

No trouble at all. Just a few lines on the `direction` part in broad Industrial Policy.

1947-1958
Pakistan - No industrial policy.
India - Import substitution:capital goods.

1959-1972
Pakistan - Import substitution:consumer goods w/out transfer of tech.
India - Import substitution:capital goods.

1973-1979
Pakistan - Import substitution:capital goods.
India - Import substitution:capital goods.

1980-1991
Pakistan - Export-orientation. Import substitution policy abandoned.
India - Import substitution:consumer goods w/transfer of tech.

1992-1999
Pakistan - No policy. Most industry sick. Infrastructure focus. FDI Liberalization.
India - Export orientation. Substitution:consumer goods w/transfer of tech.

2000-to date
Pakistan - Export orientation. Import liberalization.
India - Export orientation. Substitution:consumer goods w/transfer of tech.

As you can see, India moved into export orientation only once it had completed its essential imports substitution cycles and self reliant to a large extent, thereby relieveing it of its foreign exchange pressures. Pakistan in the meantime lost direction, regained it briefly, lost it again, then simply gave up and began importing even more useless stuff than before, increasing its reliance on foreign exchange which can`t be met through its textiles exports alone.

That is the `direction` I had lamented about.

zeemax: great poem, this ``Nevermore``. Why do you consider it nihilistic?? I think it has more to with Poe weeping for this beauty, his ``lost Lenore``.

btw, dont go to a lot of trouble on my account concerning pakistan`s economic prospects. Instead, make that an article. Either way, I hope you will keep the positive aspects in mind as well.

#468 by swarrier

Brilliant! Thanks ... yes reminds me of DOS ... great.

See you Tom ...

Re: # 467
Ah , Poe of course. Really pessimistic or nihilistic which ever way you look.

Bit of fun now.
If you struggled with DOS in its earlier days or Windows today (it doesn`t really matter) take a look at this bit of futility.

http://www.shades-of-night.com/aviary/poegram.html

You may have already seen it.

Rgds

#466 by swarrier

Yaar swarrier ... you`re right up my alley. But ponder upon this. This is Nihilism:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
`` `Tis some visitor,`` I muttered, ``tapping at my chamber door;
Only this, and nothing more.``

Ah, distinctly I remember, it was in the bleak December,
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow; vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow, sorrow for the lost Lenore,.
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore,
Nameless here forevermore.

And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me

---

filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating,
`` `Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door,
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door.
This it is, and nothing more.``

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
``Sir,`` said I, ``or madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is, I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you.`` Here I opened wide the door;

---

Darkness there, and nothing more.

Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word,
Lenore?, This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word,
``Lenore!`` Merely this, and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping, something louder than before,
``Surely,`` said I, ``surely, that is something at my window lattice.
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore.
Let my heart be still a moment, and this mystery explore.
`` `Tis the wind, and nothing more.``

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately raven, of the saintly days of yore.
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door.
Perched upon a bust of Pallas, just above my chamber door,
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
``Though thy crest be shorn and shaven thou,`` I said, ``art sure no craven,
Ghastly, grim, and ancient raven, wandering from the nightly shore.
Tell me what the lordly name is on the Night`s Plutonian shore.``
Quoth the raven, ``Nevermore.``

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning, little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door,
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as ``Nevermore.``

But the raven, sitting lonely on that placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing further then he uttered; not a feather then he fluttered;
Till I scarcely more than muttered, ``Other friends have flown before;
On the morrow he will leave me, as my hopes have flown before.``
Then the bird said, ``Nevermore.``

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
``Doubtless,`` said I, ``what it utters is its only stock and store,
Caught from some unhappy master, whom unmerciful disaster
Followed fast and followed faster, till his songs one burden bore,

---

Till the dirges of his hope that melancholy burden bore
Of ``Never

---

nevermore.``

But the raven still beguiling all my sad soul into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore --
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking ``Nevermore.``

Thus I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl, whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom`s core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion`s velvet lining that the lamplight gloated o`er,
But whose velvet violet lining with the lamplight gloating o`er
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by seraphim whose footfalls tinkled on the tufted floor.
``Wretch,`` I cried, ``thy God hath lent thee -- by these angels he hath
Sent thee respite

---

respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore!
Quaff, O quaff this kind nepenthe, and forget this lost Lenore!``
Quoth the raven, ``Nevermore!``

``Prophet!`` said I, ``thing of evil!--prophet still, if bird or devil!
Whether tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate, yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted--
On this home by horror haunted--tell me truly, I implore:
Is there--is there balm in Gilead?--tell me--tell me I implore!``
Quoth the raven, ``Nevermore.``

``Prophet!`` said I, ``thing of evil--prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that heaven that bends above us--by that God we both adore--
Tell this soul with sorrow laden, if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden, whom the angels name Lenore

---

Clasp a rare and radiant maiden, whom the angels name Lenore?
Quoth the raven, ``Nevermore.``

``Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!`` I shrieked, upstarting--
``Get thee back into the tempest and the Night`s Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken! -- quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!``
Quoth the raven, ``Nevermore.``

And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon`s that is dreaming.
And the lamplight o`er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted

---

nevermore!

Re: # 465

It is actually good. Most times..

As in here .

O for a draught of vintage! that hath been
Cool`d a long age in the deep-delvèd earth,
Tasting of Flora and the country-green,
Dance, and Provençal song, and sunburnt mirth!
O for a beaker full of the warm South!
Full of the true, the blushful Hippocrene,
With beaded bubbles winking at the brim,
And purple-stainèd mouth;
That I might drink, and leave the world unseen,
And with thee fade away into the forest dim:
- J Keats (Ode to a nightingale).

Where`s that glass of .... , spring has come to Massachusetts?

#451 by swarrier

Aah ... just read your #451. Welcome to the club my friend. Yes all human endeavour is futile. But don`t take that road so easily. Life can actually be good! Just try.

#462 by swarrier

Yeah, yeah existantialist nihilist whatever. Don`t want to argue about that. But actually Sartr`e was existantialist. Nietzsche was existantialist. Goethe was existantialist. Even Allama Iqbal was existantialist ... but not Camus. He was nihilist.

Rgds

Re: # 462
Sorry meant to say ``posted my bit on #451``

Re: # 461
Zeemax
Camus was an existentialist. To other philosophies the journey`s end may be the journey itself. That`s the other bit I was trying to say, when I posted my on #451

#458 by tahmed32

No tahmed32 Saheb. The fundamental mistakes made since long ago have resulted in a structural abyss from which it will be practically impossible to climb out. I`ll detail this tomorrow. You did mention direction, didn`t you? I`ll explain what direction is and what is not.

I did enjoy your remark re Camus. Yes ... I`m a nihilist, if you want to call me that. All human endeavour is like a man spending an eternity crawling up a mountain, but soon as he nears the top, he`ll slip and start all over again.

That`s the destiny of all human effort.

Rgds

Farzana

The interactor named khamkhwa has been violating Chowk guidelines on unplugged and writing abusive posts against CHowk staff. Below is one example. Please enforce a ban as this is not right.

#14 by khamkhwa. on March 27, 2006 10:31am PT

your esteemed editor is a kafir...prolly you don`t know that...but she is an aga khani who worship aga khan instead of allah swt...

Re: # 457

You have got my point completely. However you cannot expect people on chowk to extinguish themselves by driving their cars through objects. He did, when he finished saying what he had to say. If he had lived he may have become as bad as Sartre. Now we are left with a youthful figure .......

Those whom the Gods love, die young , so that they can never become caricatures in their dotage ........

There is no hope for us.

zeemax #450 Thanks for helping me avoid scholarly research for your post.

I think, sir, that you are looking at the part of the glass that is empty. How about the part that is filled? after all, you cant argue with success - and 8.4% is success regardless of the details.

let me list some positives that i think indicate happy days ahead for economy:

1. Economic policies : Entrepreneurship was stifled in Pakistan under ZAB, the Zia years and the 1990`s were largely status quo in this area. What we are seeing now is a burst of entrepreneurship in Pakistan that was last seen in pre-ZAB days when Pakistan was held out as a ``model developing country``. The banking system has been largely liberated from the ZAB days. So, to give the devil his due, musharaff deserves credit for putting together a strong economic team of pakistanis who have made their mark internationally (the pm, the state bank governor, other lesser known people). and nawaz sharif - who started economic reforms in pakistan - is an unsung hero as well.

2. Political stake in Pakistan`s economy : Pakistan had been subject to stifling economic sanctions throughout the 1990`s, and these were lifted after 1998 as the US realized there was no point in keeping the barn door locked now that the genie was out of the box (to mix metaphors) and lifted those sanctions. Again musharaff deserves credit for playing his cards right.

3. Peace dividend : Peace moves with India have encouraged both domestic and foreign investments. I hear that in marriott islamabad they started serving veggie menu to cater to indian investors.

4. Improved regional prospects : The growth in the indian economy to the east and of the gulf states to the west and china to the north and the galloping growh rate of afghanistan all augur well for pakistan in many ways. Spillover affects of export orders to india, workers remittances from the gulf area.

5. education there has been an upsurge of demand and supply of primary, secondary as well as tertiary education in Pakistan. Places like Kohat - among the most backward and conservative part of Pakistan - have girls, boys as well as co-education schools and colleges.

I could go on, but dont want to go too far off-track the topic of this article.

#452 you refer i guess to monsieur camus, and his totally negative viewpoints (i.e. like sisyphus, we toil away uselessly). he would fit right into chowk, i guess. :-)

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#453 by Zeena

I was just being funny. Sorry.

Iam thank you for tell turth, butI amv sadness now.

ROTFLMAO

Oops ... sorry ... I amlike yo uvery. muchh, I ambug fa n. ...

LOL

Chowk staff
Post #444 by zeemax is a personal attack on me. This interactor zeemax has been harrassing me for no reason. Will you please, teach this interactor , how to interact and how to maintain civility ?

Thank you.

#444 by zeemax

zeemax
With all due respect, how many times do I need to remind you that I am not the topic of this article, I guess?

This is sad the way you guys abuse and manipulate any board for your useless fights and for HARRASSING other interactors. There is a triangle of three words, shamelessness, lack of self respect and lack of absolute intellectualism and you fit in to it with out any doubt.

Now, may I request you to stop these personal attacks on me, please. Thank you

Re: # 391
[swarrier #384 despite what the french may think, just because a comic (Asterix) is written in french does not make it ``intellectual``. :-)]
Tahmed , see that`s the problem with you North American types. Always dissing that poor confused germanic race who think they are different because their grapes ferment better than most.
I will now endeavour to quote only from a French Jew born in Algiers who wrote an essay about a Greek who was vainly trying to roll a rock up a hill.
Ah the futility of it all........Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims ...-))

#447 by tahmed32

Oops .. sorry. I thought you were on that board too. Here it is. It was on DM`s article.

#61 by zeemax on March 13, 2006 7:33am PT
Pakistan has a robust economy... Shaukat Aziz when he was the Finance Minister has borne fruit ... All sectors of the economy are growing ... the foreign exchange reserves are high ... There are now over 23 million mobile phone users in Pakistan ..

Dost saheb, all of above is simply not true as a description of Pakistan economy. Pakistan economy in fact is in deep trouble due to blunders by this government. They have lost a historical opportunity which is rare to arise. Allow me to explain:

1) Before 11 Sept 2001, the economy was at a standstill, nothing happening, and the forex reserves were around the same level as June 1998 i.e. post detonation. Never mind the official figures. They are just false. There was hardly anything in the kitty to fund imports and the Rupee was at $/65.

2) Reverse capital flight took place after 11 Sept 2001 and an estimated 14 billion dollars entered Pakistan all of a sudden within two months. With these dollars the Government built up it`s reserves, prepaid lots of expensive loans, and was able to lower domestic lending rates from 21% to 2% because of too much liquidity floating around. That resulted in huge profits for the large corporate borrowers, made bubbles in the stock market and real estate (both tripled), and the Rupee strengthened to $/57.50. All of this was because the economy was not able to absorb the huge inflows. The money had to go somewhere.

3) The government had hoped that with the cheap rates and stuff, there will be new industrial investment. That didn`t happen. Only thing that happened was better capacity utilization. The domestic industrialist knows no sector which can compete in a WTO regime. So they pocketed the higher profits and that`s it. The banks were awash with liquidity with no borrowers so they started to lend retail in credit cards, auto loans and things like that. That`s where the consumer boom began when the consumer rates were at 7% and the auto assembly industry picked up. Nothing else. The consumer growth accounted for the *official* figure of 8% growth. BUT and it`s a big BUT, it also resulted in much higher imports because the production never increased, only assembly of vehicles and other consumer durables. It also resulted in core inflation of 11% plus.

4) Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Consumer loans are now re-priced at 14%, getting out of reach of the happy consumer`s paying capacity; trade deficit for 2005-2006 is expected to hit 9 billion dollars by June when the *actual* reserves are down to around the same amount (Don`t believe that $12 billion stuff). The cellular phone revolution didn`t do anything for the economy other than the initial FDI, and import coverage of available foreign exchange has gone down from 11 months to six months. The *Logistic Support* payments from USA have waned and will completely stop shortly.

5) The Government will manage to tide over another year through sale of Pakistan Telecom etc., but after that the balance of payments will be in severe red. Oil is not likely to come down, only rise. The deregulation/elimination of wheat, sugar support prices has hit the farmer hard and now they`re shifting to other cash crops resulting in sugar prices hitting Rs. 45/kg from Rs. 27/kg. People are real angry.

The lost historic opportunity I mentioned earlier is that a $14 billion windfall after 9/11 was almost Rs. One hundred billion. If only the Government had absorbed it through issue of its securities, instead of letting it lose in the market, it could have spent it on infrastructure and state enterprises to replace private investment which wasn`t forthcoming, and avoided the speculative bubbles which are bound to burst.

Stupid. Pakistan only had a breather because of 9/11. It wasted that surprisingly opportune time to amend. Now Pakistan has to wait for another 9/11.

So, in my opinion, its better to accept the LOC as permanent border, and make a trade pact with India. Pakistan cannot survive in the manner it is proceeding.

Rgds

Congratulations Farzana Versey on another wonderful article on FP, one which was original and interesting and has had over 10,000 hits and 450 interacts already.

kaalchakra #429 ``Any system that assigns the logic of terrorism any validity will destroy itself. ``
Agreed. The wave of terrorism in the name of islam is doomed to be relegated to a footnote in history. The mullahs and their followers impress only themselves, and no on else, with their self serving cries of ``victimhood`` of the palestinians and so forth while ignoring the incredible injustices done in the name of islam in places like Darfur and within muslim societies themselves.

zeemax #445 I shall therefore set aside this Monday for a scholarly voyage of discover. Namely that of reviewing your posts on other boards in my search for the Truth on this issue. Your monumental intellectual achievements on chowk demand nothing less!!

hamidm #425 : ``who reads the ny daily news is barely one step above those who read the national inquirer and usa today``

while the above was not addressed to me, i must confess to taking a sneak look at the national inquirer myself, while waiting on the checkout line at the grocery store.

Tu bene dicis. Peccavi. Mihi quaeso ignosce!! (i.e., as the ancient romans would say: your are right. I have sinned. Forgive me please!!)

#417 by tahmed32

8.4% GNP growth rate is great speed (second best in Asia after China) and in the right direction (economic progress).

I think I addressed this point in detail on another board a while ago.

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#442 bjkumar
bjkumar sir jii

I am not the topic of this article, I guess?
Thanks

#434 Zeena

Dear Zeena, you are too kind. But I insist on volunteering YOUR name for the position in question - my limited oratorial skills are absolutely no match for your charming people skills - and it is my understanding that the job in question requires a LOT of the latter - just look at the number of ``people`` involved! (The hate pots of the world can certainly benefit from your energetic input - my limited and tired words appear to fail every time.)

Besides, you put thirty dots in your response #434.

I consider myself a single dot!

Therefore you win, by a massive landslide! :)

With best wishes.

And another one.

Filtered Post #420

(Note: The Anti-defamation league of the B’nai-Brith (ADL) is a ninety year old organization. According to its charter, as listed on its web-site, its mission’s ``ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens.`` ). It posted the following editorial.

ADL Analysis
Mearsheimer and Walt`s Anti-Israel Screed: A Relentless Assault in Scholarly Guise
Posted: March 24, 2006

The article by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, entitled ``The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy`` would not be taken seriously if not for the reputations and associations of the authors. They have each written respected scholarly works on government and international relations and occupy important positions at their universities.

The article itself, which was first posted in full on the Kennedy School Web site and then published in executive summary form by the London Review of Books, is a 41-page, amateurish and biased critique of Israel, American Jews, and American policy. It addresses in a perfunctory and all-knowing fashion some of the most important and complicated issues surrounding the Middle East conflict. Nowhere in evidence is a sense of complexity, balance, an examination of the variety of factors that cause an event, or of putting individual comments in perspective – all the appropriate tools for a serious piece of scholarship or journalism.

On every issue, the authors start with unproven, anti-Israel assumptions and then look for isolated examples to justify these assumptions. One does not have to take a pro-Israel position to recognize that the authors, despite their reputations, have no interest in producing a serious, balanced work. The result is a sloppy diatribe.

…

All of these examples point to the authors’ relentless obsession to see the world through their own narrowly conceived and intentionally distorted prism. It makes for one of the most unprofessional works coming out of respectable quarters. Undoubtedly, the anti-Israel forces will be citing this study for a long time to come. Because of its extremism, however, we can hope that mainstream individuals and institutions will see it for what it is – a classical conspiratorial anti-Semitic analysis invoking the canards of Jewish power and Jewish control.

The complete article is available here.

And this one.

Filtered post #422
(From an article in the magazine ``The Village Voice``)

The Chosen One
Journalist Daniel Pearl Was Killed for Being a Jew
by Michael Kamber
February 25th, 2002 6:00 PM

[Excerpts]

I believed Daniel Pearl was dead all along.

….. I returned from Pakistan frustrated from arguing for perhaps the hundredth time that 4000 Jews did not call in sick to work at the World Trade Center on September 11—explaining that Americans do not classify employees by religion, so how would anyone know?—and that ``no, the Jews do not run America.``

``My father is a Jew, my mother is a Jew, and I am a Jew`` are the last words Daniel Pearl uttered, an instant before his throat was slashed, according to government officials who have viewed the videotape of his murder. At least one of his captors has admitted that the kidnappers were specifically looking for a Jewish victim. Curiously, government officials and Pearl’s family, as well as his employer, The Wall Street Journal, are downplaying this angle, as if drawing attention to what is clearly an anti-Jewish killing would dishonor Pearl, who was not an observant Jew.
…..
As is always the case, Pakistan’s anti-Semitism exists in a vacuum; with the exception of the tiny elite who had traveled abroad, no one I knew had actually met a Jew—there simply aren’t any in Pakistan. Of the country’s 140 million inhabitants, 98 percent are Muslim, the remainder Christians and Sikhs. In a country where perhaps three-quarters of the population is illiterate, people take their cues from their religious leaders and politicians. Few understand the difference between Israel’s hawks and doves, or the nuances and differences of opinion between Sephardim and Ashkenazim, American Jews and Israeli Jews. In an uneducated population, where groupthink is the norm (often, a dozen people would converge on a reporter after a rally spouting identical positions, right down to the wording), groupthink is assumed in the enemy.

In such a climate, Daniel Pearl’s kidnappers stripped him of his humanity; the funny, creative, fiddle-playing husband and father-to-be is lost. It is replaced with the enemy, the other, the Jew.

The complete story is available here.

All right, here we go again!

For those in the crowds who missed it in the last go-around - the contents of the filtered interacts are located at the following locations. Excerpts follow - strictly according to chowk guidelines! (Dheere re chalo, mere naajuk red riding hood! Kamar na pakre, daanto wale!)

Filtered post #423

The following investigative report appeared in the New York Daily News on March 30, 2003.
Sowing seeds of hatred
Islamic textbooks scapegoat Jews, Christians
By LARRY COHLER-ESSES
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

(Excerpts)
Textbooks widely used in New York’s Islamic schools contain passages that are blatantly anti-Semitic, condemning Jews as a people, repeating old canards about the Jews wanting to kill Christ and faking their Holy Scriptures to mock God.

The Islamic texts teach that ``the Jews`` killed their own prophets and betrayed the Prophet Muhammed through their inherent deceitfulness.

The books, obtained during a three-month Daily News investigation that included visits to private Muslim schools, are rife with inaccuracies, sweeping condemnations of Jews and Christians, and triumphalist declarations of Islam’s supremacy. In Long Island City, Queens, for example, fifth- and sixth-graders at the Ideal Islamic School on 12th St. learn that Allah has revealed that ``the Jews killed their own prophets and disobeyed Allah.``

(The rest is available here.)

farzana versey

the point you raised in critisism for jewish people in your article is 100% right. and i am astonished that our indian brothers and sisters are so much annoyed on this. fact is still there which farzana ji you reiterated in your further interactions that this is about jews community, not about kashmir issue.

one of our brother whom i realy respect salim chauhan sb who is good muslim once wrote humrous article named ``muslims in infedilistan: a ready recknor`` in which he tried to convince the muslims to hide themselves behind the giant indian image and donot show your real identity as muslims specially when you are living in foreign country or travelling to some foreign country. it ridiculed all possible islamic identities adopted by muslims. even somewhere it mocked islam. the reaction by our indian brothers and sisters was really appriciating for mr. salim. and was encouraged to write more and more article on such a topic. its really interesting that somewhere mr. salim mimicked indian businessmen and IT professionals that they are always so mean and donot give tip to a waiter. i noticed that many of our indian brothers and sisters retaliated on this. this is real the time to think for muslims that they have become a mere stuff to be ridiculed and targeted for thers. farzana ji i am totally conviced and you deserve to be the chowk administrator.

My indian brothers and sisters

with due respect you people are totally biased agianst muslims. it shows that if something is agianst muslims you feel it in your favour and if something is in favour of muslims you feel it against yourselves. please come to your senses and leave this formula and try to read this article again and then analyse it before any interaction.


ghulam haider

#436

I assume that the chief editor is going to apply the guidelines uniformly and start out by censoring the massive amounts of ``cut and paste`` that mian Manto (and others) has been so liberally supplying us with?

Do not cut-and-paste copyright material from other sources on Chowk pages. If you wish to share an article from another source simply provide the link (URL) to that source. (From Chowk guidelines)

Should anyone wish to share a particular story from another source, then provide a link instead of lengthy articles and, if you really want to ram home the point , then add an excerpt. The usual spamming of boards is not necessary. People here can run their own search engines. Use your personal space for your seaches.

If you wish to share an original article written by you elsewhere -- and that is relevant to the subject of the article being discussed -- then it might be considered.

At this point, perhaps it is useful to explain why this interactor - who does not happen to be Jewish - is so laboriously trying to take the ``Jewish`` side. Therefore, I have tried to summarize below a few things I may have said here or there.

I do believe that there are many lessons for ``we`` people (i.e., for those from the subcontinent) if we choose to learn them, by reading about and understanding more of the Jewish experience (which, from all accounts, is without parallel) and especially that of the holocaust – both in terms of learning about man’s potential cruelty to man as well as man’s ability to survive against the worst odds. In many ways, the holocaust was (and remains) a most ``personal`` experience to most Jewish families somewhat like the India-Pakistan partition remains to those in our subcontinent who were destroyed or displaced due to it – people have moved on but the memories have remained and are not likely to be forgotten any time soon.

Religious beliefs and values are one thing – every community passes them from generation to generation – tragic experiences of this nature (the holocaust) are in a league of their own (both in intensity and magnitude) – they would superimpose themselves on TOP of whatever the original religious framework would be – an ``intellectual`` discussion is in many ways futile because of the very ``personal`` nature of the ordeal. (Note: for those who have not already read it, NHK’s article on this site is probably a good place to start to learn about Jewish history. Also, for those who live in the Washington, DC area or happen to visit there, please do make it a point to visit the Holocaust Memorial.)

It is also a fact of life that people who have to struggle to survive generally get better-trained to adapt to new realities, come up with more innovations (you see, they have little choice but to do so) and are able to forge ahead better – including in eventually making new discoveries. This is true of most immigrant populations, including Bangladeshis in India, Indians in U.S., and the Jewish expatriate populations world-wide.

The Jewish persecution was a very REAL fact of life – perhaps one of the greatest tragedies in the contemporary history of mankind – we south Asians were not in the picture when most of that outrage took place – however, let’s not try to be wishy-washy about it.

This author’s anti-Israel bias shows right up front! I particularly dislike dishonesty which depicts Israelis (and occasionally, Jews) as this omnipotent force controlling all the powers of media in the U.S. The reality is (and perhaps the author and her cohort hate pot are not capable of seeing it) that the ``Palestinian`` cause suffered (perhaps) an irreversible loss –after 9/11 and especially after the scenes of jubiliation following that disastrous event – in other words, don’t blame Israel when you YOURSELF hurt your image so!

To me, it’s utterly disgusting how whole bunch of ``authors`` at the chowk web site (with few exceptions) constantly beat up on the Jewish people. I think a point can be legitimately made that most of these wise ``owls`` don’t give a hoot about stereotyping, racism, and other forms of discrimination as long their own fanny stays safe. Jewish people, then, become an easy target, because they hope that nobody in THIS crowd will come after them for their irresponsible blanket statements because this crowd only cares about India or Pakistan. But such people are wrong as wrong can be! THIS interactor does care and will not let them get away with such garbage, because extremely average as this interactor is, he at least understands that condoning racism in one form is condoning racism in all its forms!

It is absolutely critical that we stop stereotyping people on the basis of race, religion, language, etc. Statements implying that the Jewish people exert undue control over U.S. economy, foreign policy, etc. are patently false and, in my view, a simplistic way for diverting attention from the real problems. Sadly, in the Arab world at large and perhaps among some Indians, this myth prevails. I strongly encourage any one interested in commenting about the Jewish faith and the Jewish people should do some reading about the Jewish history and the contribution of Jews to the present civilization. It is truly an eye-opener!

People who stereotype the victims of holocaust, or trivialize it - they are not successful in throwing wool into anyone’s eyes - they are merely showing their own true colors and degrading their souls in the process.

Sincerely,
BJ Kumar

#432 bjkumar

bjkumar, my dear Indian friend
Thank you.
In my humble opinion, you`re the right person for editorial candidacy seeing your conversational skills. I am,but, literary.....................................

hamidm asks
[...why do pakis and indian muslims get so worked up about jews and palestinians ...]

and farzana replies -

[...Why not? Today, we cannot expect societies to live in their cocoons...]

this from someone who never tires of questioning why NRIs comment on indian matters when they don`t even live in india.

#430 Hate Pot

Dear hate pot,

(Or perhaps I should call you Bunty (no gender is being implied (for that would make it highly inaccurate!)))

Ask Bablee to talk for herself!

Oops, I forgot - Bablee is doing double duty as chowk-staff.



#431 Zeena

That was massively illuminating. I think that chowk should fire the current editors and hand you the job.

{{{{#427 by einsteinwallah on March 26, 2006 4:34pm PT
Re: # 402

Zeena on my #382

zeemax is not my another nick. I was just giving you some advice. After all you write to be understood, don`t you? So should not you polish your language?}}}}}

Dear einstein jii(oops, sorry, I mean einsteinwallah)
Sir jii
Do I need to remind your highly POLISHED self that this article is absolutely NOT about me, this is about Jewish supremacy? So, may I request your polished self to restrict yourself to the main topic of the article to be included as polished interactor.To be a polished interactor one needs to follow interact guidelines and stick to the main topic. May I suggest you to discuss this article to be considered as a polished interactor instead of uselessly targeting Muslims and me. Thank you very much polished, sir jii.

einstein( opps, sorry , einsteinwallahwalla sahib jii)

To make your polished, pressured and burdened self easier, there is an anxiolytic as a gift from me (Mulsim Pakistani) to my (Hindu Indian) polished friend in the form of a small paragraph (as per your demand). Please, feel free to make corrections to polish my paragraph to enhance my interactive skills. After all I am in DESPERATE need to be UNDERSTOOD and to be HEARD on CHOWK as I do not have any life other than chowk.

Arright, here is what I wish to say.

There is circumstantial evidence on chowk (as also evidenced by your interactions ) suggesting that some of the Indian interactors language and communications skills are declined which is the main reason they are engaged in sarcasm, negativity, useless arguments, Muslim hatred and name calling 24/ 7 @ chowk on every board of front page. Main reason, I believe is poor language in expressions and communications to be understood poorly. Yes, sir , your polished self didn`t hesitate for a second to retaliate against all Muslims in general and against me in particular. Mind it, fights always depict highly UNPOLISHED language skills due to poor language skills to communicate properly. What I see here is , YOU ARE JUST BABBLING with your ONLINERS without even contributing anything positive to the board,but,to wish all Muslims should die by mentioning their end is numbered. So, this is the proof of your HIGHLY POLISHED language skills that you come up again and again with your one liners targeting me exclusively for absolutely NO reason, except that I am Pakistani and Muslim, that shows your prejudice towards me.

Another suggestion for your polished self is to join a program which provides not only a practical vocabulary and effective conversational skills, but the means to continually enhance your language abilities to broaden the horizon of your individual language knowledge interactions which will enhance your polishedness more and more and you will be able to come up with more extensive ideology instead of POLISHED ONE LINERS and you will be the brightest STAR on this web site. Thank you

Good luck. (You do not need to waste another of your polished interaction on me). Just focus on the main topic.Thank you .
Sincerely
(an unpolished Pakistani Muslim well-wisher)

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt have already been labeled anti-Semitic. Though it appears at least one professor is a Jew himself. (Going by the last name only, could be wrong.)

Since that jealous insignificant “beej” of an insect is spamming this board (like he did another one with Gandhi pictures-We know when he goes off his rocker- Full moon perhaps!), I thought it would be a good idea to let people know what is kosher and what is not because after this post that insignificant Beej would post all the pages from AIPAC site. Insect!

Here is Alan Dershowitz`s checklist of what constitutes anti-Semitic criticism of Israel and which legitimate criticism of Israel is.

It reads like ...you are a redneck if…

There is another list (below this )of what is kosher. I hope people stay within the boundaries set by or Alan or THEY MIGHT BE ANI-Semitic!

A CHECKLIST OF FACTORS THAT TEND TO INDICATE ANTI-SEMITISM

1. Employing stereotypes against Israel that have traditionally been directed against ``the Jews.`` For example, portraying Israel as devouring the blood of children or characterizing Israeli leaders with long hook noses or rapacious looks.

2. Comparing Israel to the Nazis or its leaders to Hitler, the German army, or the Gestapo.

3. Characterizing Israel as “the worst,” when it is clear that this is not an accurate comparative assessment.

4. Invoking anti-Jewish religious symbols or caricaturing Jewish religious symbols.

5. Singling out only Israel for sanctions for policies that are widespread among other nations, or demanding that Jews be better or more moral than others because of their history as victims.

6. Discriminating against individuals only because they are Jewish Israelis, without regard to their individual views or actions.

7. Emphasizing and stereotyping certain characteristics among supporters of Israel that have traditionally been used in anti-Semitic attacks, for example, “pushy” American Jews, Jews “who control the media,” and Jews “who control financial markets.”

8. Blaming all Jews or “the Jews” for Israel’s policies or imperfections.

9. Physically or verbally attacking Jewish institutions, such as synagogues or cemeteries, as a means of protesting against Israel.

10. Stereotyping all Jews as fitting into a particular political configuration (such as “neo- conservatives,” Zionists, or supporters of Sharon).

11. Accusing Jews and only Jews of having dual loyalty.

12. Blaming Israel for the problems of the world and exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs.

13. Denying, minimizing, or trivializing the Holocaust as part of a campaign against Israel.

14. Discriminating against only Israel in its qualification for certain positions or statuses, such as on the Security Council, the International Court of Justice, and the International Red Cross.

15. Blaming the Jews or Israel, rather than the anti-Semites, for anti-Semitism or for increases in anti-Jewish attitudes.

16. Taking extreme pleasure from Israeli failures, imperfections, or troubles.

17. Falsely claiming that all legitimate criticism of Israeli policies is immediately and widely condemned by Jewish leaders as anti-Semitic, despite any evidence to support this accusation.

18. Denying that even core anti-Semitism— racial stereotypes, Nazi comparisons, desecration of synagogues, Holocaust denial—qualifies as anti-Semitic.

19. Seeking to de-legitimate Israel precisely as it moves toward peace.

20. Circulating wild charges against Israel and Jews, such as that they were responsible for the September 11 attacks, the anthrax attacks, and the 2005 tsunami.

You are NOT anti-Semitic if:

1. The criticism is directed at specific policies of Israel, rather than at the very legitimacy of the state.

2. The degree and level of criticism vary with changes in Israel’s policies.

3. The criticism is comparative and contextual.

4. The criticism is political, military, economic, and so forth, rather than ethnic or religious.

5. The criticism is similar to criticism being raised by mainstream Israeli dissidents.

6. The criticism is leveled by people who have a history of leveling comparable criticisms at other nations with comparable or worse records.

7. The criticism is designed to bring about positive changes in Israeli policies.

8. The criticism is part of a more general and comparative criticism of all other nations.

9. The criticism is based on objective facts rather than name calling or polemics.

10. The critic subjects his favorite nation to comparable criticism for comparable faults.

tahmed32 # 419

``it is merely a question of the squeaky wheel getting the most attention, while the real sufferers of the world are not heard from.``

PRECISELY!

Terrorists and their sympathizers essentially assert: forget the injustices and inequities, trouble and tribulations elsewhere. Give me what I and my friends want. Or I will blow you up and kill your children.

Giving in to this convoluted logic will be disastrous for everyone - not only for the victims of terrorism but also for the welfare of terrorists and their sympathizers. Any system that assigns the logic of terrorism any validity will destroy itself.

#415, Stuka {``Fact: Jews are scumbags.
Fact: Muslims are by and large such unlovable arseholes that non-Muslims end up loving whoever the Muslims hate.
Fact: Hindus fit above hypothesis more or less.

Hypothesis of above article: If Muslims want other non Muslims to hate Jews, Muslims need to be come more lovable. ``}

Stuka,

Stuka,
I agree with your second fact. Yes, Muslims seem to go out of their way to earn the hatred of non Muslims and sometimes even other Muslims. All the sympathy generated by the good Bosnian Muslims as they heroically defended, suffered, and died just for having Muslim names, was erased by the violent jihadists. If Islam is going to be hated by non-Muslims, and that hatred is justified by the evil that Muslims perpetrate, then I say there is no need for this great religion. Islam is there for non-Muslims and not reserved for the true believers - most of whom already have reservations in hell according to Islamic principles.

Re: # 402

Zeena on my #382

zeemax is not my another nick. I was just giving you some advice. After all you write to be understood, don`t you? So should not you polish your language?

#425

Are you saying that the events described in #423 are not accurate? If so, please identify what is off.

On another note, I`m sorry I beat up on you a bit earlier.

But NOBODY in their right mind praises those who praise insurgents of the variety sent in from Pakistan into India, and you did pat Hate Pot`s back!

So your ``reward`` was well-earned and there`s plenty more where that came from!

(Perhaps I could have given you the benefit of doubt by accounting for your advancing age and written it off to an onset of senility - probably a more accurate situation for mian Tauheed - but I chose not to. I decided to keep your ``young and vigorous`` image.)

bj,

..... you have lost all credibility with me ...... anyone who reads the ny daily news is barely one step above those who read the national inquirer and usa today !

Note:

I knew I shouldn’t have read this thing again!

(By the way, if the author had bothered to read NHK’s article, she would realize that using the term “Jew” is considered to be in poor taste (not that such trivialities bother some people) and using the term “Jewish people” is the right way to say it.)

[I do not know of anyone who has not suffered from a persecution complex.]
The author needs to visit an optometrist right away – perhaps he/she can prescribe new glasses to extend her vision a little past her own nose tip.

[The Jews went a step further and decided to do it with finesse. They took on the Other’s mantle and took over it. It was a smart strategy to seem to be a contributor and yet retain your distinct identity.]
Actually, all they tried to do was to survive – mostly on an individual basis. There were no magic wands to wave. The above self-confident statement reveals a lousy stereotype – it’s not even funny!

[Of all the peoples in the world, it is the Jews who have enshrined the Persecution Complex – by using it as a trump card, by making demands, by genuinely exposing their hurt, by capitalising on its dramatic potential and, most important of all, by rising above it.]
Except for that last note, this statement is nothing but stereotyping of the worst kind! And even with the last part – there is stereotyping taking place! Not every Jewish person is successful at everything such a person does.

[There is a lesson in this for the Muslims to acquire the two ‘P’s: public relations and a good dose of persecution.]
There it is – ``the Muslims`` – that great Muslim “ummah” thingie again! Do all Muslims form a homogeneous entity? And is the author putting into practice what she is preaching here? (If said in jest, it is one of the most insensitive lines I have ever seen.)

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(Note: From the ADL web page entitled “How Children Learn and Unlearn Prejudice”)

Prejudice is contagious. When people are afraid or have actually been hurt, it may be a natural response to want to hurt back. But hurting one another only escalates the hatred and violence - and the differences don`t go away. We live in a world of differences -different races, religions, cultures, sexual orientations, abilities. The differences can seem strange and overwhelming, even frightening. In an effort to cope, we may all find ourselves wanting just to stay with. ``our own kind,`` avoiding people who aren`t like us, sometimes resorting to hurtful words and actions ourselves to manage our fears. At the beginning of this new century and millennium, we must deal with our differences - in schools and workplaces, in books and newspapers, on television and online, even in our own families.

Prejudice is only one way of dealing with differences. Instead, we can learn to respect differences, to see them as a source of strength in our lives and society, even celebrate them. In place of prejudice, we can teach acceptance and understanding. Meeting this challenge requires both preparation and practice.

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zeemax #408 ``Palestinians are after all mostly Muslim and subject to perhaps the most visible and blatant injustice in the entire world``

both are pakistani misconceptions. a significant portion (i think it is close to half, but havent checked) of palestinians are christians. more importantly, there is no communal distinction within palestinians (of the kind we have in spades in the sub-continent). the keepers of the christian church which stands where christ was supposedly crucified itself are muslim - descendants of a family that was given this job by salahuddin ayubi when the christians were fighting among themselves to have custody of the church, and ayubi gave the job to a neutral, i.e. muslim, family. that is how deep the roots of solidarity and freedom from communal feeling are among palestinians.

as for ``injustice``, as i provided evidence earlier - it is not a black and white issue. compared to the injustices in the world (including the ones done to women of the weak and poor in our own beloved pakistan and in other developing countries), the ``injustice`` to palestinians is nothing.

it is merely a question of the squeaky wheel getting the most attention, while the real sufferers of the world are not heard from.

#415 Stuka

So which one are you? A Jewish person, a Hindu, or a Muslim?

Or could it be - no, it could not be - no way!

Could it be that you are this person?

That would certainly explain the irrationality.

zeemax #404 ``Thing I lament is that Pak has no direction``

8.4% GNP growth rate is great speed (second best in Asia after China) and in the right direction (economic progress).

Other problems fix themselves - since, as a central theme of Marx (one of the few things he got right), was the social and political structures adjust to fit what he called the ``mode of production`` (translation: economy).

Only trouble is, as the urdu saying goes, the smell of poverty sticks for a few generations even after poverty has been removed. That is why chowk so easily becomes a cesspool. the subcontinent still has a few generations to go before the smell of poverty is removed - even though poverty is over for the individuals concerned.

#412 by FarzanaVersey on March 26, 2006 12:22pm PT


I am amazed at the ‘ghetto mentality’ displayed in this post.


What amazes me is that you`re batting for the wrong ghetto..

Dubya visits India: OUTRAGE!! protests!! rights of the iraqis..

Harvard report: OUTRAGE!! Jews are evil and now we have proof..

Bombs in varanasi: Did I tell you about my benarsi sari....

Fact: Jews are scumbags.

Fact: Muslims are by and large such unlovable arseholes that non-Muslims end up loving whoever the Muslims hate.

Fact: Hindus fit above hypothesis more or less.

Hypothesis of above article: If Muslims want other non Muslims to hate Jews, Muslims need to be come more lovable.

My Comment: Jews are scumbags who screw you and u don`t even know you are getting screwed. Muslims are fooling themselves if they think they can aspire to those levels of duplicity and intellectual sphistication.