Kibbutz Criminals

#19, #21 by zeemax:

[Where Jews are today, is because of much more than that. Let me describe some characteristics, not necessarily in this order:

1) No belief in boundaries.
2) No belief in any country`s laws.
3) Totally rational thought process.
4) Totally trustworthy with friends.
5) An uncanny perception / understanding of human nature, indeed to the extent of reading a person like a book with a single glance.
6) Brilliant business sense and acumen.
7) Single-minded work ethic ... money not that important as is deemed, but merely necessary for a good life, and they LOVE living well.

They don`t like discussing religion and switch off when led, but I suspect their unique confidence regardless of any diversity, does have something to do with their being `chosen`.

Perhaps they are ...]

1. But no problem occupying another’s land.
2. Say this about others and those poor people will be told to get out…
3. So certain?
4. And with enemies? For me that is the true test of character.
5. They are all ESP practitioners/psychiatrists?
6. Okay
7. Now, their love for the good life is classy…others are debauched, right?

Fine, so you have ‘chosen’ them. Aapki marzi…

[Re the holocaust ... the Jews I have known .. and believe me I have known a lot .. including Israeli Jews .. never even mention it. It just happened for them and life goes on. They don`t hold it out against anyone ... not even the Germans.]

So you are sitting and having a drink somewhere and you meet with this Israeli Jew and s/he is poking a toothpick into a cocktail snack and telling you about the good old days of the Holocaust? Huh?

Scars run deep.
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#26 by GT:

[Were Karl Marx, Trotsky and Richard Feynmann Jews who did what is stated above? What about secular groups in present day Israel?]

When one talks about groups, it does not mean everyone who belongs to it. There are secular groups in every society, just as there are fanatic groups.

[Not all Jews are Zionists (and perhaps vice versa if you include some Hindutva types). Not all Jews feel persecuted and hurt. Jews, like Muslims, Hindus etc. are not a homogenous bunch. You yourself have opposed `bunching together` in the past....what gives now? You are keenly aware of stereotypes created by the media and like....what gives now?]

This article was not discussing Zionism and in fact the word Palestine did not appear even once! (Though you might like reading Einstein and Shaw.) I am against bunching people together, but you do talk about group psyche and here I used the Mob as a metaphor and ONE face of Jews. See, how it hurts when you stereotype that one face and attribute it to a whole group? Now, you got it?

[Why should Muslims try to achieve something together......or rather why should Hamid and Urstruly try to acquire the two P`s for YOU?]

Who has asked Muslims to achieve anything together? I just gave the example of the Jews – cohesive AND committed are the two words I used. Btw, the world talks of pan-Islamism, I don’t.

Re. Hamid and Urstruly acquiring the two Ps for me…I honestly think they need it with each other first…
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#31. #50 by Salim_Chauhan:

[…very few of us realize the source of real Jewish power. Yes, it is unity. Planning and unity. Education and unity. Tolerance of each other and unity. Debate over issues and unity. I have many Jewish friends in the US and quite a few in Turkey. I am pleased to note that I enjoy their company and prefer Jews to Arabs in general. These good people have a tolerant attitude and for the most part are quite fair, reasonable, and honest. Thank you for opening this very appropriate discussion - let`s see how the Ummah responds.]

Their unity depends a great deal on how the world has chosen to perceive them. Jews are essentially lobbyists. You say they have not had a civil war – in any society when you fight for the same piece of land (which you have occupied) then that is called a civil war.

[Her advice to concentrate on P&P will in itself be a catalyst for such a transformation. She could have taken my approach and tell Muslims outright that you are wrong, you are bad, and you need to change. Instead, she is using the subtle approach of definition, appraisal, and marketing - something that would reveal the gaps as they go through the process.]

Subtlety don’t work here. As I said earlier people will read what they want to. However, I do not believe change can come about by telling people they are wrong, but by telling them what is right.

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#65 by HP:

[The Arabs or Muslims whether they live in the ME or India, are still part of the tribal societies. Despite their persecution in Europe and to some extent in the US too, Jews were able to get good education and a largely stable family life because the system was open enough for them to take advantage of.]

Agreed. But do not forget that Palestinians are educated too, despite being shunted from their homeland. What do you mean by Muslims still being part of tribal societies? Having a US lobby is enough to ‘de-tribalise’ you? This is the stereotype that is promoted by certain segments…there is no doubt much to be done in terms of contemporary education, but would you say that countries that are economically well-off are not educated? Saudi Arabia does follow some very regressive practices, but is there no education there? They are making ‘modern’ money too…heck, a whole segment of the West would give its right arm to make that kind of money.

The Israelis use tribal methods to deal with land issues, and they operate differently with the West. It is a matter of strategy. Sure, Muslims could learn.

And who told you IMs are part of ‘tribal societies’? IMs are the most aware…

[So the Muslims are too backward to compete with Jews in terms of creating a message.
Muslims are not one political or geographical entity. So there can never be one message.]

Isn’t it strange that only when they are pitted against the Jews everyone agrees that Muslims are not one whole…every other time the community is clubbed together? Wonder how you have not noticed…

[PR is a primitive word itself. You lobby for your interests. FV has not defined who Muslims should lobby or point their PR/lobbying campaigns too. Should that effort be pointed at the US government or the effort should be made to change the public opinion about Muslims. And finally, who is going to do that. Every Muslim country has its own relationship with the US/West. Muslims are not in one country nor are they one entity to send one message out. Saudis would lobby for their interests and the Indonesians would lobby for their own benefit. Both countries have different issues and different economic relationship with the US or other western countries.]

The reference to PR was essentially to improve their image, their visible image…the reference to ‘persecution complex’ was meant to be dark…it clearly denoted that they would have to become victims of others rather than use their violent streak.

[Guilt dominates the current relations between the Jews, Israelis and the West. If the Jews were persecuted in some African and Asian country, the west would have sympathized with them, would have had some empathy towards them but the relations would have been entirely different.

The West does not have any Guilt relationship with the countries they colonized and in some instance brutally colonized. So even though the persecution factor was there the associated guilt was not. It is more of cultural affinity thing than anything else.]

These are curious but contradictory points. Are you trying to say that it is guilt that makes Israel more acceptable? Then they should be feeling very guilty about Iraq, Afghanistan, East Europe, India? Then you say they do not feel such guilt towards societies they colonised…

It is not cultural affinity. The West needs an Other, and who better than the Arabs, traditional enemies of Israel. As I said, the Hollywood lobby works overtime to purge this guilt – whether it is Vietnam or the Holocaust.

Re: 95 by Farzana

Chauhan may not even be his name; he is Pakistani (which when a Hindu says is okay, it has got to be okay)

Isn`t this the same Chauhan who recently wrote on Chowk describing how his Hindu sounding last name keeps him out of the rightful perception of Islam enjoyed by his less fortunate Paki bros who don`t have the luxury of such a name? The one who loved the feeling of distancing himself from the muslims in western societies on account of his surname?

Apart from Joos and Christoos, Hindoos too get incensed because muslims refuse to assimilate into non-muslim societies. Which is perfectly okay - who are others to judge if muslims want to stew in their own ghettos rather than the melting pot?

The incense burns deep because even after being given their space and rights of ghetto, muslims wish to destroy the society at large with their anachronistic medieval practices. It is no coincidence that muslim issues are the at the core of over 99% of social problems everywhere. They just don`t know to live alongside others peacefully without their inferiority complex manifesting violently.

In all multicultural societies, all the other communities contribute much more positively than muslims. Why is that so? The answer lies within. You don`t need PR at all, actions speak louder than words.

Re: # 77, Rsridhar:
[re: Jew versus muslim
Why is it that when one thinks of a jew, one thinks of a doctor, scientist, a Nobel laureate perhaps.
Now-a- days, when one thinks of a muslim one thinks of protests, mayheim, terror, murder, Guantanama Bay, deportation etc etc
That pretty much sums up the difference.]

No, it does not. Doctors, scientists, Nobel laureates are not supposed to be seen for their religious affiliations; if that it the way you look at it, then it is very telling.

Of course, you would think of Salman Rushdie not for his writings, but due to the fatwa!

Protests? Only Muslims? Never seen a trade union rally or a gay pride parade?

Mayhem? Not seen too much dhakka-dhukki near taps in the slums, have you? Not seen goons in Bihar, Up?

Terror? Try Ireland and Gujarat for starters...

Murder? Oh gosh...ALL the murders in the world committed by one community?

Guantanamo Bay? You blame Muslims for that too?

Deportation? How many huddled bodies did you see returning in ships?

Etc, etc? Right.

[Saw a movie called Maqbool ? recently. Brilliant acting by Pankaj Kapoor as a muslim mobster. Why is it that all the mobsters in Bollywood now-a-days are shown as muslims?]

Check out `Satya`, `Vaastav`, `Ab Tak Chhapan`...Hindus have been given their due!

Maqbool is brilliant, rates as my top ten all-time fave. You do know it is loosely based on `Macbeth`, don`t you? Shakespeare was a Muslim??

[Why is it that almost every terrorist activity the world over has some connection with a muslim and to Pakistan?]

Not always, but often enough...Why? If you knew and I knew then there would be no George Bush.

Re: 97 by Farzana

[1. But no problem occupying another’s land.]

Blaming it on inadvertant exposure to madarassa history, let us remove this misconception first.

The middleast has always belonged to the Jews, and historically they are rightful and worthier inheritors of this land than the later band of sword wielding islamists. Al Aqsa in Jerusalem and the Kaaba temple of Abraham in Mecca were Jewish before forcibly occupied by the muslims.

Instead of thanking the Jews and paying up the rent with interest, the muslims, like they do in Ayodhya and elsewhere, want to hold on to places that don`t belong to them.

Re: 97 by Farzana

[Scars run deep.]

The same is true for societies that have been victims of islamic rape, pillage and plunder.

Re: 99 by Farzana

[Protests? Mayhem? Terror? Murder?...]

Only muslims do it because they want the whole world to abide by their book. Nobody else forces their beliefs violently down others` throats like the muslims do.

In other religions, christianity for instance, the pope routinely apologizes for past mistakes committed by christians. Now why can`t muslims ever emulate such decent behavior?

Muslims find Danish cartoons made by christians offensive, but what about the offensive writings about Christian, Jews and Pagans in the Koran and Sunnah? Would muslims accept protests that they remove the offending passages and issue a fatwa apologizing for the past errors.

The examples of the crimes you provide - violence at water taps, etc. are quite childish, although these are cliched examples used by muslim commentators. But nobody else wears explosive panties to make their religious point other than the muslims. And for this, they believe they get rewarded in heaven. Can you believe that? Aw nuts!

..... the problem with muslims can be summed up in one word : `` they are DIFFERENT`` ....... okay, that is three words .....

....... the reason the jews, chinese, japanese, and even the horrid hindoos don`t have a PR problem is because they have generally accepted the concept of modernity (aka western civilization) ..... the muslims continue to reject and fight it ...........

...... i could give you a million examples, but it is quite unnecessary - just look around

Carl von Clausewitz said that war is extension of politics by other means, I guess we can say business is extension of gansterism by other means or if you want it euphemistically, gansterism is extension of business buy other means.

Communities that are good in business don`t have to try other means.

It seems rather farfetched that Jew’s persecution complex is acquired by design or just a facade skillfully orchestrated by PR. After all Holocaust did happen unless you are President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Farzana:
[When one talks about groups, it does not mean everyone who belongs to it. There are secular groups in every society, just as there are fanatic groups.]

That is such an unbelievably bold lie. Where are these so-called muslim secular groups hiding? Does Saudi Arabia the custodian of the faith set an example on this? What other places of worship can you find there? Which secular muslim group came forward to protect the muslim Salman Rushdie? Which secular muslim group encouraged Shabina Begum to assimilate with the other 21 ethnic groups in her British school?

Oh I see, this is a convenient definition. Secular groups make sense only in kafir societies to form convenient places to bash the non-muslim majority kafirs. Give me the NAME of a secular group in ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan. Can there even be a secular group in an ISLAMIC republic? Other than the self-flogging intellectual eyewashes meant for a western audience?

Re: #104 by Kalihawa

[After all Holocaust did happen unless you are President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.]

Ya Allah! What are you saying? Holocaust is the name of the Hollywood set used for Schindler`s list! It is a kafir conspiracy. The Jews own the media, movies and history books. Don`t you know?

Farzana:
[Saudi Arabia does follow some very regressive practices, but is there no education there? They are making ‘modern’ money too…heck, a whole segment of the West would give its right arm to make that kind of money. ]

You are talking as though saudis invented machines and then discovered the oil to run them, under their ground. You don`t need advanced education to let western folks drill deep holes in your backyard and suck out a black gooey liquid called oil.

Let the next oil-free tech breakthough arrive, as it is bound to do soon enough. The saudis would find that other kafirs are better than them even at guiding camels along the desert.

Re: # 95
[Farzana: Why do you guys always have to decide what kind of Muslims you need?]

This is one really stupid question? its like why do indian muslims decide they want congress instead of bjp hindus,the answer is very simple, they feel safer. same way,rest of the world decides it wants progressive muslims living and interacting with it, it feels more secure.

consider a case study of a now successful company making a product. they were never a big success before establishing themselves in the US. they make a great product, its well-liked, a huge brand name due to inherent usefulness to the society. a ``leader and deep thinker`` of a struggling company studies this. the leader is unfortunately part of its company, so concludes that the success is a pure bania gimmick, and advises his own company to buy a large supply of pink lipsticks.

and why are other companies around so worried? well, we share the insurance pool, so wrong advice affects us all.

Re: # 95
[Farzana: Why do you guys always have to decide what kind of Muslims you need?]

This is one really stupid question? its like why do indian muslims decide they want congress instead of bjp hindus,the answer is very simple, they feel safer. same way,rest of the world decides it wants progressive muslims living and interacting with it, it feels more secure.

Re: # 97

``See, how it hurts when you stereotype that one face and attribute it to a whole group?``

It does not hurt me when some people do it. It surprised me when I saw you doing it, given that you have fought against stereotyping. It may well be that through this write-up you are trying to show ``how it feels`` when people strereotype...fine. I hope that was not the primary intention. For if it was, then given the readership of Chowk a hard hitting piece on Hindus or Muslims would have been more appropriate.

Regards.

>>>[Re the holocaust ... the Jews I have known .. and believe me I have known a lot .. including Israeli Jews .. never even mention it. It just happened for them and life goes on. They don`t hold it out against anyone ... not even the Germans.] >>>>

Farzana, sometimes you go overboard without giving much thought. Please don’t form opinion on an entire group by meeting a few Jews at Hooters. Just as you are not a representative of progressive and forward looking Muslims, nor are the Jews that you encountered in your brief 8 months in the US. Come to NYC, I will show you some Jews who hold Germans responsible for what happened. Even to this day (and for centuries to come). And Life does not go on. Not like how you seem to be implying.