Fake Dalits, Bogus Tribals?

#35 my personal opinion is that quotas are wrong. affirmative action is ok (that means a little boost based on circumstance and active effort in recruiting diversity). but IF we allow quotas, backward class muslims are a deserving party.

apparently IIT and other elite institutes now will have OBC quotas (based on mandal). this is ridiculous, since almost everyone is an OBC.

Ref jang #22

[harimau, the muslim sultan kicked you proverbial ass and took the job on merit of his sword. dont be naiive..you gave nothing by choice, if you feel you got screwed then do something about it or get over it. ranting is futile..how about a nice shyap from you?]

Yep, we ARE doing something about it. You heard about Godhra, haven`t you?

[today the fact is muslims as a community ARE backward and if anyone needs affirmative action its them.]

You know, the courts in India don`t think so. That is why when the (Christian) chief minister of Andhra YS Rajasekhara Reddy gave a 5% reservation to Muslims, the High Court told him it was illegal. If Rajasekhara Reddy didn`t need a quota system to become chief minister, there is no reason why an ordinary Muslim must have a quota in professional colleges. Unless you think that Muslims are inferior not only to Hindus but to Yehudas as well.

[.... its not politically feasible however]

Politically it is feasible. Just cannot get it approved by out courts. Good for the High Court in Hyderabad!

[.... its simple logic..if you were to optimize a system, you would start with a portion which will give you the biggest bang for the buck.]

I think we have the example of Pakistan in front of us. With all the advantages of not having to compete against Hindus, Jews, Jains, Buddhists, Parsees, Christians, etc., where the fcuk are they? Rallying behind Osama bin Laden, that is where.

Nope, Indian Muslims can rise up by their own bootstraps or leave their fate in Allah`s hands.

Fake Dalits and Bogus Tribals = Unqualified Doctors

Let me bring to your attention the recent incident in admission to the MD program in Indian medical colleges.

The ``intelligent`` BC/MBC/OBC/SC/ST MBBS graduates who wanted to pursue their MD smuggled in a pen-sized optical scanner. They scanned the examination paper and sent out the scanner. A bunch of ``intelligent`` BC/MBC/OBC/SC/ST doctors sitting in a nearby hotel room downloaded the questions from the scanner into a computer, looked up the answers from textbooks and sent SMS messages on cell phones to candidates taking the exam. The racket was discovered when folks who had flunked the exam last year scored the top 10 ranks this time. In short order, the police have arrested the exam-takers and their accomplices (who included some medical college professors too!)

How do I know that not a single brahmin was involved in this? Easy; not a single brahmin has been admitted to medical colleges in Tamil Nadu for the last 40 years.... well. not quite, but the brahmins who had to move the Supreme Court to get into the medical college don`t count because the justices agreed that they were better qualified than the BC/OBC/MBC/SC/ST crowd.

So much for trying to make silk purses out of sows` ears or doctors out of goatherds.

Hey, Subhash ``Commie`` Gatade, you got anything to say about this?

#31 good to know that. in india too, there are many muslims (men and women) doing well in several professions. e.g. in mumbai, most of the fmailiy and inheritance law practitioners are muslims. however, as a group, they are doing poorly. in case uk muslims are doing good, indians can perhaps learn from uk experience.

Ref aslam644 #31

[in uk pakistani girls are doing quite well, some of the top lawyers are brit-paki girls]

The men are a different story. They are suicide bombers for Allah.

#29 by jang on April 5, 2006 6:10am PT
in uk pakistani girls are doing quite well, some of the top lawyers are brit-paki girls

#28 by aslam644

[the new dalits of india]

So would you be willing to take them into Pakistan? After all, yours was the country formed to provide shelter to the ``oppressed-by-Hindus`` Musllims.

But wait, you guys haven`t taken in 200,000 Biharis who are stranded in Bangladesh to this day.

#28 aslamian, how are muslim brothers doing in the UK? are they living up to their potential?

the new dalits of india

Muslims form 14.7% of India`s 1.1 billion population but only

3% or less of the Indian army

7% of public administrators

5% of the railways staff

3.5% of the country`s banking employees

#26,

``If BJP offers disbanding of civil code and haj subsidies and waqf boards and offers a reservation policy for muslim dalits, they will be voted to power``

You may have something there. At the very least, it will expose the banktrupcy of the Muslim leadership which is the primary impediment to the progress of the Muslim community, IMHO.

23, 25.. you have to consider this issue dispassionately. forget the history, paramhans, reasons (which are not necessarily the facts) .. only fact is that currently muslims constiture the single largest monolithic backward grouping. IF social engineering is to be applied, why should it not be applied for biggest possibility of results? e.g. a primary education for harimaus favorite 4-women banging muslims 1-st wife will be very effective.

looking at it the other way, muslims are being discriminated from the affirmative action pie just because they are of a different faith, this is grossly unfair. ummah leaders have been happy with their waqf boards and haj subsidies and have given up of more substantial deamands, organizations like the BJP should step-up and take a more rational approach to social engineering than a fraudulant approach.

so, if BJP offers disbanding of civil code and haj subsidies and waqf boards and offers a reservation policy for muslim dalits, they will be voted to power and harimau will be happy because he wont have to suffer a 4-wife bangings and a more rational policy will ensue.

Ref jang #22

[today the fact is muslims as a community ARE backward and if anyone needs affirmative action its them. its not politically feasible however. its simple logic..if you were to optimize a system, you would start with a portion which will give you the biggest bang for the buck.]

The REAL problem with Muslims is that they are banging away at four women each and reproducing themselves at a rate which they cannot sustain economically.

There is a new game in the town, that of tampering with the SC/ST lists. Dadda has decided to add a few more jatis to the SC list in UP, check this out. This policy has far-reaching outcomes which is mostly lost on people. One would wonder what difference does it make if 10-15 more jatis are added to a list of hundreds of jatis. Well, it does. The FC/OBC/MBC/SC labels don`t represent monlithic communities but a hodgepodge grouping of communities spread across India, who have little in common. The truth on the ground is anything but uniformity of status of the various jatis. So, a majority of benefits are cornered by affluent jatis. Off the top of my head, Meenas amongst tribals and Malas amongst Dalits are glaring examples of status difference between jatis grouped under a single label. Their representation in public services is much in excess of their proportion in their respective categories. A small movement from one category to another can wreck havoc on the benefits dispensed to a category - just add a dominant jati to SC list and reservation as we know it would be finished.

Another interesting development is that of dividing the pie or sub-categorizing reserved blocks. Some governments have proposed further classification of reserved seats so that dominant castes don`t run away with all the goodies. This means the SC list itself would be divided in many parts with fractions of total percentage assigned to jati groupings. As with everything else, these steps too have been proposed keeping in mind the electoral politics. But, a reform of the reservation juggernaut is long overdue and much needed.

Re: # 22

jang,
When Hindu society was being reformed by Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Mahatma Gandhi et. al., Muslim society was being radicalized by Iqbal, Jinnah, Suhrawady and others. That is the sole reason for Muslim backwardness.

There has been absolutely no historical suppression or marginalization of Muslims in the sub-continent which should be the sole reason for reservations/affirmative action. If the Muslims are backward today, it is because of the shell they`ve imposed around themselves. This is causing so much confrontation not only in India but the rest of the world. In fact, there are so many other communities in India who need hand-holding to bring them into the mainstream but that has been driven into the background because of the absolute selfishness of Muslim leadership to somehow project themselves as the have-nots for nearly 100 years now.

The sooner the Muslim leaders admit that the real problems and the real solutions to them lie within the Muslim community itself, the sooner the community will put itself on the path towards social and economic emancipation.

harimau, the muslim sultan kicked you proverbial ass and took the job on merit of his sword. dont be naiive..you gave nothing by choice, if you feel you got screwed then do something about it or get over it. ranting is futile..how about a nice shyap from you?

today the fact is muslims as a community ARE backward and if anyone needs affirmative action its them. its not politically feasible however. its simple logic..if you were to optimize a system, you would start with a portion which will give you the biggest bang for the buck.

Ref jang #10

[the affirmative action for muslims is a tough one..i suspect the idea for this is a political passe, though a right thing to do. muslims are surely one of the backward castes .. the mlench of the mlench and need affirmative action help.]

Didn`t we have affirmative action for Muslims in India for at least a thousand years? Wasn`t the sole qualification for a job with a Sultan a Muslim name? You mean to tell me that with about 1000 years of affirmative action, Indian Muslims are still backward?

Seems like a clear case of affirmative action not doing anything for Indian Muslims. More quotas are not going to make up for inherited thuggishness and indoctrination on the Satanic Verses.

Re: # 19

I am just curious. Why Kedarnathji? Why not kedarnath?

Reservation is like crutches. The sooner the SC/ST comes out of it and becomes competitive in an open field, it is to their own advantage. Ultimately, acheiving something in a competitive field on ones` own capabalities and merit, is good for self-esteem and there are no questions on their capabilties. For example, today if an SC/ST doctor was to start his own medical practice how many people (including SC/ST) would becoming his patient when they came to know he was an SC/ST. No it is not because of caste bias (maybe in certain parts of India) but more so because many view getting through reservation as mediocre people getting through. Even political leaders like Ram Vilas Paswan, for all their polticial rants, want the best doctor for themselves when they viist the All India Institute of Medical Sciences. They never say, ``get me an SC/ST doctor``. Some of them even hint that they don`t want an SC/ST attending to them.

In the nonsensical rambling by Subhash Gatade, a one very important fact was missed out.

[quote]The bench of Mr. Justice H. K. Sema and Mr. Justice Dr A. R. Lakshmanan was deliberating on a plea by one Anjan Kumar for granting him Scheduled Tribe status for being born of a tribal woman married to a non-tribal husband. The honourable court dismissed the said appeal on the grounds that such an offshoot is brought up in an atmosphere of Forward Class and is not subjected to any disability. (The Excelsior, Jammu, February 16, 2006)[/quote]

An extremely bad decision by the Supreme Court for two reasons. Firstly, it reinforces the caste system by giving it an importance of being acquired through birth. The day we allow people to switch castes without acquiring any benefit the foundations of the caste system itself will crumble. However, the Supreme Court decision is more outrageous for the second reason that it gives a secondary importance to the mother in a child`s life. At least in the US, a child born of mixed heritage (race, ethnicity, color, whatever) can elect to pick whichever ancestor`s lineage as they want. For example if one of your great-grandparent was a Native American and you had one-eighth Native American blood then you can call yourself a Native American irrespective which ancestor it was (male or female, maternal or paternal). More shocking then the Anjan Kumar case is the Sobha Hymavati Devi case where even an illegitimate child was thrusted on the father`s caste irrespective of the fact that her mother raised her all along.

http://www.infochangeindia.org/analysis63.jsp

Ultimately, the best way to avoid historical biases and bigotry is marriages between different groups because the child born will be able to view both sides of the issue. When Brahmins marry Dalits, Hindus marry Muslims, Shias marry Sunnis, Whites marry Blacks and so forth. At one time inter-caste marriages were encouraged and the government even rewarded people for marrying SC/ST. As a late Deputy CM of Gujarat, Yogendra Makwana, a Dalit had said, ``we do not like the crutches of reservation. We like to be accepted as your equal. Give your daughters for marriage to us and take our daughters in marriage``.

Unfortunately, the left-wing liberal commie cabal has a vested interest in seeing the Dalits as permanently poor and down-trodden and a vote-bank and hence these stupid decisions by the Supreme Court.

Re: # 16

Mishraji,

very well spoken and what you are saying is true. BUT HOWEVER when you mention the christians you forget a few things:

1) They want to educate for conversion.

2) Education for them is a tool for exacerbating tension. e.g. whenever a few Dalits/Adivasis they educate esp in law (and are able to brainwash and convert them) then they project them as community leaders and ask them to egg on their Hindu bretheren (who have not converted) to pick fights with other Hindu castes who they could not convert. This happens in the form of enticing women, obstructing religous and social functions and
asking people to file false cases under Prevention of Atrocities act when a minor skirmish takes place.

Regards
Sanatani

The answer to all this crap lies in following three steps: education, education and education.

And guess what: no one gives a cr*p about education. No one, except the christians, a few NGOs and some of the RSS-affiliated groups (ekal vidyalaya)..

I have earlier noted my inability to find a single dalit organization that had any scheme for educational improvement or fund raising for education. Of course, these same organizations have 100s of web pages ``proving`` how vicious brahmins are, various crazy conspiracy theories etc. Exactly the same comments apply to our ``progressive`` left-wing friends: a lot of energy for reading marx and burning the US flag and ZERO interest in mass education for all citizens.

Our Subhash-sahib is cut from the same left-wing cloth. Lots of energy for diversionary nonsense but little interest in the core issue.

Re: # 13

Dear Tvarad Bhai,

I use the suffix as a mark of respect for you. Unlike so many others you could have responded to my take with a welter of abuse and isolated examples of Dalits like Bhog Vilas Paswan. (Admittedly quoting Babu Jagjiwan Ram was an isolated example and nothing can take away the fact he was a corrupt man despite his efficiency).

Yes definitely I agree with your suggestion but would add a caveat, that at this point when there is such a trust deficit between communities let us not even attempt an overhaul ``even though it is broke let us NOT TRY and fix it``, however kalihawa`s suggestion is correct that a creamy layer should be introduced so that the benefits are more widely dispersed and I think the only way is to create an opinion amongst the Dalits to achieve this WITH THE long term goal of having NO PERSON classified in Hindu society as Dalit.

Best Regards
Sanatani
A Hinduist Hindu

There is one problem with this reservation policy. It creates a class of elite within the ‘dalits’. All the reservation jobs are recycled within this group.

My suggestion; carry on with the reservation policy but disqualify the families which have once availed the benefit of reservation.

#12,
You will notice that I have not said that government is inefficient because of Dalits but I have said that it is inefficient because of reservations. There is a big difference. I also happen to think that Dalit community is the only one which should have affirmative action because, like the African Americans, they have been systematically stripped of their dignity whereas most other communities are backward because of their backgrounds (BTW, I could have used the system (but didn`t) to get ahead in college admissions because my community belongs to some kind of backward class).

And I will agree whole-heartedly that the reservation system as with any other system that Indians lay their hands on , however well-meaning, without adult supervision is subject to wholesale abuse. It is much like how neglect of urban planning has reduced our cities to massive slums, or how there is connivance between politicians and businessmen in plundering natural resources in Jharkand/Chattisgarh and other backward areas without anything being given back to the tribals/locals of the area in terms of development. Or why there are more officials than athletes in our sports bodies.

The ultimate abuse of the reservation system is how politicians are threatening to use it against Narayan Murthy of Infosys because he is saying the same things that you and I are saying, which is that our political and administrative systems are broken.

In a way, I am asking the SAME questions that you are asking. I think the blame is on the politicians and the babus.

I think we need to have deep rooted political and administrative reforms, much like the economic reforms (which are in reality to breaking the shackles that the politicians and babus put on innate Indian entrepreneurship). This includes a overhaul of the reservations system to make it achieve what we want from it, rather than the other way around.

Re: # 1

Tvarad,

Blaming inefficiency in the govt on SC/ST is a big lie and a myth created by vested UC interests to hide their own inefficiency.

Reservation is 22.5% a third is by bogus upper caste and a 3rd not filled so roughly reserved people are 7.5% and UC` and Forward BC`s Jat, Gujjar Ahir the rest 77.5% on paper and 92.4% actual, the mess they have created is not funny.

It is so easy for you to blame our so called and sometimes not so so-called Hindu bretheren called ``Dalits`` for inefficiency but the facts would suggest otherwise. I say this not as a pro reservation but pro affirmative action person.

I shal ask you the same questions I asked in anti reservation meet 18 months before mandal in Allahabad in 1988 I was not 15 years of age that time:

1) You talk of merit fine but then why is there no merit based promotion in service and no objective way of evaluating a person`s performance in government? Whay are all promotions done on seniority.? In the British times performance was the only criteria for promotion. The youngest ever Secretary to the Government of India was not a Brit but a Bhartiya Sir Girija Shankar Bajpai who made secretary in 12 yrs of service which included 1 yr of training and 1 of probation, tens of britishers never made it beyond the rank of Commissioner then achieved by performers in average 8 years service.

2) Reservations get you 22.5% of people (actually in All India Services 15% and the rest around 7.5% but we will take it as given for 22.5%) 77.5% are unreserved, now why do (please all excuse my language) this majority become ``bhangi`` by the rest of 22.5% population, why dont 22.5% ``Bhangi`` become Brahmin by associating with 77.5% of Population? And if the former is true then ``Bhangis`` are superior beings (by virtue of fact they downgrade those who associate with them {and please dont state rubbish like they are like shit and if you throw shit on food food becomes shit}) and thus there should be 100% of reservation for them.

(Needless to say no answers. Moreover I was heckled and almost beaten by the crowd, mind you educated people clamouring for jobs)

3) Your tirade against the left is justified, but it is this left (cong, socialist, commie, gandhian) that has forced the government against objective civil service rules. This leadership has been mostly UC and this policy has benefitted the Upper Castes and Forward BC`s (and not the SC`s) who form an overwhelming majority of the Govt Employees.

This commie gadhade will not like this but the most ferocious attackers of casteism are Hindutwawadis like my former alma mater the RSS.

A few days later a couple of old timers associates of Veer Savarkar ex Hindu Mahasabhaites expelled from the RSS and their families for their pioneering work amongst the Dalits and their extreme right wing personal agendas one a Brahmin the other a Yadav stunned a meeting of FC`s and BC`s called under the banner of Hindu Ekikaran Samiti whose agenda was ``We shall strive to create harmony among Hindu Castes`` (This is of course all pre mandal when we were not bitten by caste bug)

The Brahmin said to the FC`s{appx transalation into english} ``You leave casteism not caste and the Harijans will give up their demand for reservation, but no you will always talk about how reservations have affected efficiency but 41 years of independence all UC PM`s what have you to show for yourself``

The Ahir thundered to the BC`s ``Your status in society you want of Brahmins, but at the same time want reservations so that without putting in the intellectual rigorisity that a true brahmin puts in you should achieve their status on the plea that you are backward``.

Then both this is not Hindu Ekikaran but Forward Backward Unity whose whole purpose is a) For the FC`s let us get rid of reservation but let us not give up our condescending attitude towards them.

b) For the BC`s that somehow let us f***k the happiness of the Dalits, let us behave like forwards here and wait till the time we can get BC reservations (in the centre).

Needless to say as I escaped without a thrashing as I was young they because they were old.

The idea should have been that the cake has to be increased so that in case some one who has a historicv disability and still does as he is not able to get a proper education esp in the village gets a leg up. But no we followed the Lefty agenda and the huge majority if not all of its leadership was UC. These were of all shades as mentioned above. Each was a faddist in his/her own way. With primary UC support they f***ed the Motherland inside out and upside down. They forgot the teachings of the Gita, Vedas, Arthashastra and ran after imported and killer ideologies and now when we find ourselves in this morass and you have the temerity to say this is all the fault of reservations.

Pray answer the following: Which SC/ST was PM, Min Def, Fin Min, Min Home, Min Ext Affairs. Only 1 in the above, Shri Jagjiwan Ram when India defetated Pak and creatad the bigger horror story called B` Desh, by all means some credit is due to indira but Ram`s role has been underrated except by the chiefs. In fact the war Ram won by his stewardship Mrs G lost that peace. Regardless to say all 5 negotiators were Brahmins.

I rest my case.

Regards
Sanatani
A Hinduist Hindu

so subhash -- your complaint is against the corrupt practice of Brahmins calling themselves Bhangis to get job and admission advantages......

.....not against caste per se...

..well...some may call it progress in leveling the playing field -- some may call it reverse disccrimination -- or affirmative action for the affluence -- I say India`s final advance towards indeed a casteless society......:)

by any angle it`s still progress......

#4 and #7-8 i agree.. a big ditto.

i have seen affirmative action work and inompetance in all castes.

i say, continue affirmative action for at least 25 years in sarkari areas, and perhaps add some reforms for removing abuse.

the affirmative action for muslims is a tough one..i suspect the idea for this is a political passe, though a right thing to do. muslims are surely one of the backward castes .. the mlench of the mlench and need affirmative action help.

Re: # 8 salim
[...Affirmative action has always been blamed for inefficiency, lowering of standards, and license for cheating....]

Yes - and that`s NOT true.... problem with Affirmative action in india is not ``inefficiency`` - but the fact that - it doesn`t work.... we have had it for 60 years - now is the time to do a reality check and do course correction.....

And again - why should be based on caste? why shouldn`t it be based on actual economic situation?....that way - every dis-advantaged section gets to benefitted - including muslims, dalit christians, sikhs and others.... that would fair and right thing to do....

Subhash,
Affirmative action has always been blamed for inefficiency, lowering of standards, and license for cheating. All of this may be true, but the preceding ``laissez-faire`` environment in most unequal societies was based on kinship, caste, race, religion, and ancestry. The lowest ranking and youngest British person of light pigmentation was deemed superior to the highest ranking and most experienced native - in India, in Africa, in Malaya. And, of course, the United States, where the Negroes were not good enough to play baseball and football - thus the standards were lowered to allow these ``inferior`` people to play the game. I guess you know where I am going. :)

Subhash,
Affirmative action has always been blamed for inefficiency, lowering of standards, and license for cheating. All of this may be true, but the preceding ``laissez-faire`` environment in most unequal societies was based on kinship, caste, race, religion, and ancestry. The lowest ranking and youngest British person of light pigmentation was deemed superior to the highest ranking and most experienced native - in India, in Africa, in Malaya. And, of course, the United States, where the Negroes were not good enough to play baseball and football - thus the standards were lowered to allow these ``inferior`` people to play the game. I guess you know where I am going. :)

#3, #5,

A well meaning idea placed in the hands of capable people becomes a tool for change but the same idea in the hands of incompetent people like our politicians (especially the left) becomes a weapon to bludgeon their opponents and advance their narrow interests.

Re: # 3 kaal

Truer words have never been spoken.... We can make Affirmative action can work to its potential.... but with leftist fools running amok - it seems almost impossible....

I find it interesting that every where in the world where there is a quota system or affirmative action program, the advantaged community has created a ``myth of incompetence``. They usually cite the reason that quota system should be abolished because incompetent people get into the position where if merit were open only very competent could go. I think that this is a racist, casteist and prejudiced approach to address an issue. The underlying assumption that is fed into throats of general public coated with the sugar of ``incompetence`` is the idea that the people who benefit from quota system are in fact mental retards and they have learning disability. The myth of incompetence has never been scientifically proven. The anecdotal proof that is usually provided is flimsy at best because the so called ``evidence`` is usually a member of a visible minority. This disgusts me. Yes in an ideal world everything should be dealt with according to the merit, but too bad we do not live in a perfect world.

Some sort of an effective affirmative program is needed until we can offer a new social contract to our brothers and sisters victimized by caste institutions. Unfortunately, no genuine discussion of the problems can take, nor will any sincere efforts made to solve those problems, until we get India`s self-appointed fat-cat middlemen - mealy-mouthed leftists with self-perpetuating agendas - out of the equation.

Re: # 1

There used to be a nick `dalit`. I wonder where is he!

I liked the way you started with ``entrenched caste interests`` not taking kindly to reservations. There can be no better proof of the unworkability of quotas and reservations than the 1991 near banktrupcy of the country due to all the socialist experiments carried out for decades (when reservations in some sectors reached more than 75%). And yet, governments even now think that the solution to the failure of reservation policy is more reservations.

When you reward incompetence in the name of social justice, you get the situation that is playing out in Delhi vis-a-vis illegal commercial structures in residential areas. Crores worth of property demolished and thousands of livelihoods ruined. All because the MCD is packed with incapable people who got their jobs based not on competence but on reservations.

The biggest friend of social inequality and poverty is inefficiency and God knows just about everything to do with Government in India is inefficient.