Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

sattar

First of all, the link you posted below is from a AHMADIS COMMUNITY SITE, therefore it is total nonsense to give reference to these type of sites.

The Qur`an regards itself as coming in fulfillment of earlier prophecy:

Say, whether or not you believe in it, the fact is that those who possessed knowledge before it fall on their faces in humble prostration when it is recited to them. And they say, Glory to our Lord and Sustainer: Surely the promise of Our Lord and Sustainer was to be fulfilled! (17:107-108; see also, 7:157, 61:6).

But it does not prophesy for the coming after it of another revelation. Its prophecy is only of its own inevitable final victory:

He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all religion, however much those who practice shirk may be averse (61:9).

This prevailing of Islam is not understood to be through any human force, but simply the result of the inevitable victory of a truer expression of the same religion over other expressions. Notice that the Qur`an does not say ``prevail over all religions`` but over all religion (in the singular). Every religion is really trying to express the same truth. Islam is the clearest and most effective expression of that truth and therefore is destined to replace all other expressions. It is like when a better and more economical model of a product such as the computer or the car comes on the market it necessarily replaces after due time the older less efficient and more expensive model.

Now a question for you, If your mirza was really a prophet ehn what sort of revelation did he recieved & how and what sorts of changes in Islamic society did these revelation made other then starting a new religion.

okay here is somthing which will some what HELP my points, Hazrat Isa or Jesus Christ prophcized the coming of Prophet Muhammad after HIM during his life & this is CLEARLY mentioned in christains` Testemony and bible. Hazrat Musa or moses prophecized the arrival of Isa during his life, BUT Prophet Muhammad did not prophecied any one coming after HIM, WHY??? -- because no one is suppose to come after word as describe in the QURAN and i have quoted the verses above.

Since i mentiond that the reference that you gave are from AHMADIS COMMUNITY i`ll give you now a reference from non muslim scholars. According to Christain scholars who just like us went deep in the biblotical words suggested tat Hazrat Isa mention while taking to his followers, tell them that another Paraclete will come and remind humans of True GOD,

|| The following are extracted from this site ||
|| http://www.mostmerciful.com/prophecy.htm ||

``When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me.`` John 15:26

Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. ``he``, Prophet Muhammad.

Now sattar and all the believer of prophecies & new messengers from Allah, could you point out any where in the Hadith that a new Prophet was bond to come over us. And don`t forget to tell me what Mirza`s revelation did for mankind.

NOTE- I would like you all to at least go through the site mentioned above.

We believe in domocracy and a true democracy is that it`s practiced well in all we do in our lives.

Ahmadis today propagate that they are a subject to nstitutionalized discrimination in Pakistan and elsewhere. My question would be that if people of a country say that they are not muslims and they should be treated like that .... then this is it. The wealth and network of ahmadis is not hidden from any one. If they can get discriminative laws thrown out by and act of Parliment, sure why not ..... but till then they have to wait and live with wishes of 150 Million Pakistani Muslims.

masadi MiaN,

Final comments ... as I head off for the weekend ...

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You are trying to create a whole now concept (end of proophethood) based on one word ... only one word of Quran. And this one word ... ``khatam/seal`` ... when viewed closely, does not support your view either. I know life can be tough at times ...

- You over-played the ``no distinction between prophets`` card. But this conflicted with reason as well other verses of Quran.

- Your next attempt was the ``drink sealed with musk`` reference from Quran. As I pointed out, musk does not ``seal/close`` a drink! However, the drink achieves fullness and perfection with musk. This reference supports my view ... for which I remain thankful to you.

- And you`ve ignored Arabic quote and references I cited. Quran is in Arabic ... you know ...

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My advice is to give up this silly pursuit of yours. Look, even Urstruly no longer argues on this issue. He merely insists that Ahmadis are non-Muslims, since ullema say so ... and prophethood had ended, since ullema say so. It is this ``why`` part that he has trouble explaining ... and you do too ...

You too have failed to make a simple point. It is now time to give it up and to take a hike. I am sure you can help the ummah in other ways ... debating this issue was just not one of them ...

masadi,


Ranks of Prophets

Quran tells us that Allah has exalted prophets to different ranks. This adequately negates your view. However, you insist that this verse is not relevant to believers!

I wonder ... if the verse is not relevent to believers, why is it included in Quran? What are you smoking dude …??


”No Distinction Between Prophets”

You have misunderstood this notion. It applies to truthfulness and spirit of message of each prophet.

To illustrate this, I plainly asked you … Is Prophet Jesus same as Prophet Muhammad? One was sent for Israelites, the other was sent for the entire mankind.

But you’ve failed to respond. Perhaps you know your view does not hold up.


Arabic References on “Khatam”

I posted several Arabic references that negate your view. If you remain in denial, that’s your problem, not mine.


Quranic Reference on “Khatam”

Quranic reference to “musk and drink” also negates your view of “khatam”. Here the drink achieves perfection and fullness with musk.


One Flimsy, Dubious Reference

That’s all you have. One word of Quran … to insist prophethood has ended. And upon scrutiny, this reference turns out to be incorrect.

Quran explains each issue over and over again … from different viewpoints, under varying circumstances, to illustrate the point. For you to try to build a whole new concept, from ground up, on one ... only one ... vague, incorrectly understood word ... is futile.

But you try anyway. However, mounting evidence, from Quran as well as other Arabic sources, adequately proves you to be in error.

Nice try, but no, thanks.


Moving on …

Arguments you raised fell apart upon scrutiny. So please spare me your sermon on how I should read Qruan. Perhaps you need to clear your own head before telling others what to do.

Furthermore, calling my views nonsense/deception is a sign of your own frustration and failure. This further underscores futility of your arguments.

#300 Sattar, you are going round and round in circles, reducing clear statements to illogical BS. When the Quran states make NO distinction, you negate the whole statement by saying that one (prophet Muhammed) was the greatest. You are to treat all of the prophets as if they were the same, that is what Allah is telling you. Your other extra Quranic references are cherry picked, and you know it. Further to me none of the extra-Quranic refs hold any weight, the Quran is the only authority.

Now, you are going to respond with the same nonsense for the 15th time, so spare me this distractive deception, and let me give you one piece of advice, give up all ideology and open up the Quran as if it were the first time you were reading it and be honest to its text. Everytime your mind throws in BS to distort the clear menaing of the Quran, regardless of where that BS comes from, reject it and try to understand the book using the logic of its author, Allah. If that is too hard for you to do, be sincere to Allah in understanding his message, then I suggest you explain your reasons for the distortions to Allah because you sure as hell have not convinced me.

discoverer (#299):

Quran tells us Allah raised prophets among people as people went astray. If Allah was going to change this practice, this would have been clearly indicated in Quran. Show me one verse which supports your view.

“Khatam” in Arabic

On khatam, you are incorrect. I have cited two Arabic references of “khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen” and “khatam-ul-auliya” that negate your view.

Furthermore, I cited a recorded Arabic saying of Bibi Ayesha, where she said … “Do call him (Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say there will be no prophet after him”.

This saying and its recording by historians further negates your view.

“Khatam” in Urdu

Since you raised other languages (Urdu, Farsi, etc.), I should mention that I have seen Urdu references where “khatam-ul-mufasareen” and “khatam-ul-muhadaseen” are used to show a person’s high rank.

Views of scholars

So far I have cited five references: 2 in Arabic, followed by a recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha, and 2 in Urdu. Here`s more ...

Several well-reputed scholars throughout Islamic history have believed in continuation of prophethood. They have interpreted ``khatam-un-nabiyeen” as most exalted prophet. Here are some references …

Click [Views on continuation of propohethood]


In summary ...

Merely insisting that prophethood has ended does not make your case. All you have is one vague reference ... of ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` ... to support your view. And as I have shown here, this reference suggests highest rank in prophethood. So you really do not have much at all on which to base your case.

#296, Discoverer {`` I only started talking about Omar( R.A) coz the discussion spark out leading every one to believe that HIS rule was nothing else but curroption whereas the truth is every thing was put together at that time. ``}

Discoverer Sahib,
I will grant you that Omar is probably responsible for instituting the first executive press conferences - precursors of Press the Face and Meat the Nation. I will draw the line somewhere - Omar had nothing to do with the Internet. :)

masadi Sahib, some follow up thoughts:

In #289 I asked you if Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are the same “prophet” (note that I did NOT say “person”; rather, I said “prophet”)?

In response (#295) you blew up.

Now, if you really believed in “no distinction between prophets” you would have simply said, yes, they are the same ”prophet”. Your response suggests that even you don’t accept what you preach.

Furthermore …

According to Quran Jesus was sent to Israelites, but Muhammad was sent for the entire mankind. Do you still insist that there is no distinction between prophets? Clearly you are misinterpreting the notion.

Furthermore, since Allah tells us about difference in ranks of prophets, this information is relevant to a believer. This further negates your view of “no distinction between prophets”.

kabuliwalla

``On another note a significant minority of black converts in the US are Ahmedis, on account of fervent prosetelyzing of Ahmedis, another facet of Ahmedis that bites Wahabis in the a$$``

Poor African American might have thought that they would pray the same way as the prophet. I am sure when they would have learn the truth about Ahamadis leader they would had converted again.

sattar2

You are another case that misunderstoods Arabic verses of Holy Quran. First of all, no where in Quran it has mention that they`ll be a Prophet after Prophet Muhammad, NO WHERE. khatam-un-nabiyeen as translated in to urdu or hindu or farsi etc only mean the end of Prophethood. Its not a men made concept, but believing that there`ll be a Prophet for YOU is a man made concept. Allah (S.T) has send down for us Quran for guidence but it seem there are many like you who doesn`t take QURANS ADVICE and start believing bullshit If you still douth it then i am sorry, no hope for you.

re: jang # 28

``Thank you Parshuram for a well-written piece. Growing up in india, we dont know about Ahmedis enough..i knew shia, sunni, memon-bohri and khoja-ismilies. Are there any in India and how are they doing?``

There are Ahmedis in India. Qadian is in East Punjab and Pakistani Ahmedis make a pilgrimage there. The caretakers there are most likely permanent residents in India. There is a bungalow with a sign of Ahmediyya Majlis or something like that in English and Urdu near Lal Bagh in Bangalore. However I never saw much activity there.

On another note a significant minority of black converts in the US are Ahmedis, on account of fervent prosetelyzing of Ahmedis, another facet of Ahmedis that bites Wahabis in the a$$

masadi Sahib,

Ranks of Prophets

Allah tells us that He has exalted prophets to different ranks. This is surely relevant to a believer, otherwise Quran would not mention it. This strikes out the base of your “no distinction between prophets” argument. And if you read 3:84, the verse specifically emphasizes the teachings of these prophets.

Khatam References

You are right that khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya do not refer to prophets. You should get a gold medal for this insight.

These Arabic expressions refer to an exalted muhaqiq and an exalted wali. Keeping this in mind, khatam-un-nabiyeen would mean … (hint, hint)

Reference to Bibi Ayesha further supports my viewpoint. She was not mouthpiece of God. Treat that reference … as a reference point.

Role of Prophets

Quran tells us that Allah sent prophets to remind and to warn people as they went astray. Are you suggesting that people no longer need to be reminded and warned? Wake up Sahib.

Musk and Drink

You are suggesting that musk seals, closes, finishes a drink. This makes hardly any sense. Surely musk does not seal/close a drink. And a drink is finished when one gulps it down!!!

Completing a drink with musk suggests that the drink reached fullness and perfection with musk. Your reference undermines your own argument, while strengthing mine. Thanks.

Incidentally, this reference is from Quran .... which should satisfy you.

One Flimsy Reference

Yes, that’s all you have. And it does not withstand scrutiny. End of prophethood is a made-up concept, which you are forcing upon Quran.

salim_chauhan

Discoverer bhai,
That is the wrong metric to gauge a ``golden age.`` Territorial expansion and conquest constitute neither glory, nor righteousness, nor closeness to Allah. If we go with square miles, then the Omayyads, Ottomans, Genghis Khan, the Russians, and even the British conquered far more than Omar.

I have just started my talk explaing how the golden age of ISLAMIC EMPIRE started, its not expansive that spark GOLDEN AGE, its the people who make it happens. All i am saying is that it was OMAR(R.A) who started it all. Achievments in scientic field was only possible when people explore their world and at the time when any new religion such as islam was considered a threat, many scientist were killed by outsider even before they start their work. The only way to make muslim scientist travel the world safely were by conquring those barberic lands, establing a proper law on that surface & making it civilized enough to live(remember earlier in muslim society safety for every muslim was a key element). I am not saying that this is the work of Hazrat Omar alone infact it was the work of each & every muslim living at that time but it was implimented TO THE HIGHEST PRIORITY at the time of Hazrat Omar. I only started talking about Omar( R.A) coz the discussion spark out leading every one to believe that HIS rule was nothing else but curroption whereas the truth is every thing was put together at that time.

Even the non muslim scholars agrees to all these point check this link
http://cherrystrudel.blogspot.com/2005/09/first-four-caliphs-of-islam.html

Sattar writes <<< - If the believers are not to make any distinction between the prophets, are you suggesting that Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are all the same prophet? >>>

Are you an idiot? Is that what not making a distinction between one and the other of the prophets means that they are ONE PERSON? You need some serious help in comprehension. If I say I make no distinction between one and the other of my professors, does that mean all my professors are just ONE person?

Then he writes <<< I cited two Arabic expressions … khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya … that suggest excellence and exaltation. If you completely ignore these, you are in denial.

- Recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha supports this meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen. This reference suggests that ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` does not necessarily mean ``last prophet ever``. >>>

Nonsense references, none are from the Quran, the top two are constructed and do not refer to the prophets, and the bottom one you have still failed to produce the arabic of it, and the prophet`s wife was no authority on Islam. Quran is the only authority on Islam. Also you are ignoring the 1001 hadith that the sunnis and the shias believe in that exist that talk about the prophet being the last.

Then he writes <<< Quran attests that Allah sent prophets for guidance of people. However, according to you, Allah completely changed this practice. And to support this view all you can find is one flimsy reference … one debatable word … in Quran? >>>

Not so, he sent prophets when he CHOSE to sent them based upon when he felt the need. When he CHOSE not to send them he did not. And now he tells us what he feels like doing considering his message is perfected and you do not need a prophet just a conveyor or messenger.

Then he writes <<< and only one flimsy reference >>>

No reference in the Quran is a flimsy reference. What you are doing is one step ahead of the Shias and Sunnis who distort Islam through their tradtions and by giving authority to the Imams, you are opeing up the prophethood with no criteria or authority from the Quran and thus trying to validate distortion of the Quran, even more so than the shias and the sunnis.

Then he writes

<<< Regarding the drink, the completion (seal) of which would be musk (Quran 83:26): In my view this does not make your case either; quite the opposite, if anything. Seal here suggests completion, where something achieves fullness and perfection...>>>

The truth came out didnt it? Seal suggest COMPLETION, and that verse is not talking about the message it is talking about prophethood and the prophet muhammed as COMPLETION.

You have miserably failed to make your case. I suggest you step back, return to the Quran and try to understand it using its own standards.

#2, Discoverer {`` Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc? ``}

Discoverer bhai,
That is the wrong metric to gauge a ``golden age.`` Territorial expansion and conquest constitute neither glory, nor righteousness, nor closeness to Allah. If we go with square miles, then the Omayyads, Ottomans, Genghis Khan, the Russians, and even the British conquered far more than Omar.

All the descriptions of what you consider really happened has been described by ``Sunni`` scholars who obviously had an axe to grind - but not like KulhaRee does. :)

kalharee

Dickcover, What Surah of the Quran is that from?

Don`t tell me that you dont know!!!? If you want to know from where i extracted this from then Its from RAMAYAN which as your indian president claim is equivalent to Quran<<>>> a soooo called muslim.

If you still didnot found this in ramayan then ask your mother she`ll tell you better.

masadi, if you step back from the issue and take an intelligent view, here’s a little more for you to consider.

Quran explains issues over and over again, from different viewpoints and in varying contexts. It sheds light on each issue from different angles so that spirit and content of message is conveyed in fullest measure.

Quran attests that Allah sent prophets for guidance of people. However, according to you, Allah completely changed this practice. And to support this view all you can find is one flimsy reference … one debatable word … in Quran?

It is flimsy and debatable … since its meaning remains vague, to say the least. Arabic references I provided underscore this fact by negating your view. Even your own Quranic reference to “musky drink” suggests the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

Such a big change … and only one flimsy reference, one debatable word? A plausible explanation is that … you are misinterpreting “Seal`` in ``Seal of Prophets” and introducing a whole new concept in Quran, one which does not belong there.