Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

Re: # 290

>>>>First thing i read you ilog, don`t go to banaras, course you`ll be raped. They will put back in to your mothers` vagina.<<<

Dickcover, What Surah of the Quran is that from?

zeemax

I have a simple answer for you................ kill yourselve, and then ask Allah for Answer. He WILL surely reply. OO paray likhay Jahil, you don`t even know what you are saying, you are actually cross question Quran!!!! Even Prophet did not question Quran, then who are you to question Quran.

majumber

``George W Bush (R.G.)`s presidency should be considered the golden age of Christian Empire. Christians started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of GWB Christian force conqured Iraq, defeated Afghanistan, Waziristan etc?

maybe that`s why many people accepting Islam under Bush government in America and alll over, and maybe that`s the reason why Islam is now being called as the fastest growing religion.

kalharee

First thing i read you ilog, don`t go to banaras, course you`ll be raped. They will put back in to your mothers` vagina. Jab tu bahir niklay gaa tab ek nayaa majab nikal naa, and tell indi fçker to worship it coz it`ll be holy. madar chu what do you mean by your Prophet taree maaaa nay teray ko gând say nikalaa tha toe aur main maree ka kaltee. You even know who SUFIs were? yaa tera hindu dost nay taree maaaa kay saath raat gozaree jo tu itnaa ouchal rahaa hai. Really you should go to south india, i am sure your`ll find many like you.

masadi (#283):

If you think I am distorting Quran, you have air between your ears. Moving on …

- If the believers are not to make any distinction between the prophets, are you suggesting that Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are all the same prophet? Or do you think these may be distinct prophets? You are missing the context …

- I cited two Arabic expressions … khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya … that suggest excellence and exaltation. If you completely ignore these, you are in denial.

- Recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha supports this meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen. This reference suggests that ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` does not necessarily mean ``last prophet ever``.

- You claim that Allah sent prophets before Prophet Muhammad. Agreed. But how do you, masadi, today, know this? Think about it! It is only through prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that you know this. Without the authentication and seal of Prophet Muhammad’s message, there is no way you’d know this. This is one of the meaning of Seal of Prophets.

- Regarding the drink, the completion (seal) of which would be musk (Quran 83:26): In my view this does not make your case either; quite the opposite, if anything. Seal here suggests completion, where something achieves fullness and perfection. This is consistent with my interpretation of katam-un-nabiyeen … where office of propethood reached completion, fullness, perfection, and its highest level … in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Re: # 285

>>>that many scholars and SUFIs` contantlyreminded us abput that is Wahabies mean in arabic a person who believe in absolute oneself of ALLAH)<<<

Dickcover, do you mean to tell us that your Prophet did not clarify enough for you that you need your scholars and Sufis to axplain for you? That’s really very sad. And Gandoo ki aulad, go and shove your head back up your Molvi`s asshole as I asked you to.

Discoverer,

(Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc? )

George W Bush (R.G.)`s presidency should be considered the golden age of Christian Empire. Christians started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of GWB Christian force conqured Iraq, defeated Afghanistan, Waziristan etc?

Regards

Note: R as in R of RA, G as in God

#285 by discoverer

If you`re so knowledgable of Islam, why don`t you answer the simple question I posed about `Hajra`? Instead of bashing everyone with ad hominem attacks. They`re all right. Kulharee as well as all others. All in their own way. Islam is not that simple as you guys make it out to be.

If you can`t, nor anyone else, I will.

Thanks

re Salim_Chauhan

To answer your question let me ask you some questions.
1. Why do Shia pray differentlly even thought Prophet MUhammad (SAW) taught HIS UMMAH to pray the way sunni muslims still prays today?

2. Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc?

3. Do you think Prophet Muhammad wanted HIS decendent to rule or ran Allah`s religion After HIS death? Remember Muhammad(SAW) had left no details as to who should succeed him. Remember even in HIS life Prophet gave power to the people, HE wanted HIS umaah to decide what`s right and what`s wrong. Its a simple voting system that was developed by senior member of the community, and ofcourse ABU BAKR being the seniour most was given the right of 1st Caliphate.

4. Why was Hazarat Ali`s (R,A) rule was the shortest despite being the son in law of the Prophet? Uthman was murdered at the hands of discontented Egyptians in 656 and the notables of Medina selected Ali b. Abi Talib as caliph. His failure to punish Uthman`s assassins quickly generated outrage. Civil war broke out under the leadership of Talha and Zubayr, two of Ali`s former supporters, and Aisha, former wife of Muhammad and daughter of Abu Bakr. The rebellion was suppressed near Basra at the famous Battle of the Camel, so-called because Aisha watched the battle from her palanquin atop a camel..

The basic different in SHIA & SUNNI are that The Sunni believe, based on specific provisions of the Qur`an and the Sunna, that the Muslim people are to be governed by consensus (ijma`) through an elected head of state, the khalifa, according to democratic principles. The Shia, however, believe that the leader of Islam, whom they refer to as the imam rather than the khalifa, must be a descendant of the Prophet. The concept is the basis for a hereditary hierarchy in the Shia tradition.

4. why do SHIA punish themselve in muharram when ALLAH (S.T) clearly mentioned in Quran HIS dislike to such acts followed by Prophet Muhammad?

Talking about the four school of thought which came many decades letter. Even during the time of Prophet Muhamaad, non muslims use to interfere with muslims prayers, by placing a statue under ther arm when muslim raise their hand saying ALLAHOAKBAR, ofcourse to removed it a person had to do some movement which as some believed is not at all tolerate in Islam but these four iman tought us the way we can pray our prayer perfected even after a person found him.herselve under such situations. therefore these school of taught does change our identity which is true muslims & also does not change our belief in the 4 rightful caliphs & our way of prayers.

re Kulharee

GO and cut your head with your kulharee. GâND KA LORAY!! like YOU shit bag, does not deserve to be here. I am sure this is the fist time you came to know the true meaning of many Arabic words, Religion are easy to follow but a religion which can be understood is the true religion. This is a misinterpretation that many scholars and SUFIs` contantlyreminded us abput that is Wahabies mean in arabic a person who believe in absolute oneself of ALLAH)S.T). SUFI`s didnot follows any schools of thought because they knew that it is only meant for people to pray their namaz perfectly.

re-harish_hy

As you say soo but tel me did your family ever gave human sacrifies coz your kalli requires it. Muslims have nothing to hide thats the reson why you are in this thread reading and learning the truth about our religion where as HINDUS have a look to hide, your caste system makes you barberic and narrow minded. your knowledge is limited & that`s the reson why many of you commit suicide or kill ACHOUT.no offen by just a question Are you a ACHOUT? don`t worry if you are then no one will take a bath or wash thee finger tips after chanting with you.

There is one figure in Islam who is quiet inexplicably the most underrated and ignored of all. That was one figure who has no sect or followers, and if there was one, I would be glad to join it without hesitation. That is Hajra (Hagar) the bond woman, Ismael`s mother, and the grand mother of all Arabs and indeed all Muslims. The silent woman whom even Genesis recognises as preferred by God over Abraham`s wife Sarah to bear him his first son, and who was brave enough to suffer quietly till finally kicked out at Sarah`s behest into the desert as a helpless single mom till noone but God heard her cries of help and acted. Still Hajra does not carry the distinction of even sainthood in Islam and referred to simply as `Bibi` Hajra.

Can anyone explain why Hajra; mother of Ismael i.e. the direct ancestor of Muhammad and equivalent of Isaac for Jews; does not merit even a mention anywhere in Quran while Mary, mother of Issa has an entire Surah devoted to her? (Even though Mary`s reference is a bit confusing because she is referred to as Miriam, mother of Issa and sister of Haroon (Aaron) while actually Miriam the sister of Aaron and Moses was not Issa`s mother ... but anyway).

Anyone? Masadi?

#281 Sattar, you are distorting the Quran again and trying to force a contradiction on it where none exists, just to fit it in with your ideology.

3:84 and many others are very clear {la nofariko bain a ahadim MINHUM} We make NO DISTINCTION (none whatsoever) between one and another OF THEM (i.e the prophets in the context).

You want to explain that away saying that in some instances distinction is fine and dandy. I don`t think so. You say that it contradicts 2:253. I`m sorry but you have no clue on what a contradiction is. There the speaker is ALLAH, here the recommendation and speaker are the believers. Allah has preferred some over others, that is his domain, the believers are told not to make any distinction between them. Now if 33:40 was telling the belivers that distinction is alright, THEN it would be a contradiction and your distorted meaning makes it so.

We have a book from ONE author, and he has used the same word in the same sense all through the book, but in this one instance just because it does not fit in with your belief system you distort the meaning and convert it into a totally nonsense sentence. And then you handpick a hadith there and a scholar here and ignore the 1001 opposing ones to prove your point. If that is not distortion, I don`t know what is.

Then you make a totally absurd statement

<<< For example, Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) verifies prophethood of several prophets. Without his authentication, one can only wonder who Jesus, Moses, Abraham were. But through the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) we know that they were prophets of Allah. >>>

This is totally absurd and rejection of the testimony of Allah, who had sent the prophets and verified them long before prophet Muhammed. So you mean to say that if people rejected them, it was fine and dandy until the prophet came? Just this statement, in my opinion puts you outside the pale of Islam, to one who has rejected the prophets or based their acceptance much after their mission was over dependant not on testimony from Allah but attestation by the prophet. It also amounts to idolatory in my opinion.

Now, if you cannot construct a logical argument based upon the Quran, and are going to repeat this BS over and over, I suggest you shut up and don`t waste my time.

Respectfully submitted,

Discoverer #276,

My friend, all you have done is used personalities to decide who is right and who is wrong.l The truth is that Shias were initially called Shia-ane-Ali (Partisans/friends of Hazrat Imam Ali). Also, if Sunnis are the original Muslims, then how come their four schools of thought were not developed until much later. Of course there were no ShiaS at the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). They arose after his death and as a reaction to the power grabbing initiated by the so-called companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), who started singing quite a different tune after the Holy Messenger`s (PBUH) death. Omar`s authoritarian rule, Usman`s corruption, and Muawiyah`s nepotism were all cause for Shias to get concerned about the imperialistic path on which the Meccan overlords were taking Islam.

For your information, the Imams following Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Hassan never held worldly power, or claimed the Caliphate - they were constantly a thorn in the sides of Omayyad and Abbasid Caliphs, reminding them of their corrupt and sinful ways.

masadi,

Some comments … (hopefully you can consider these without accusing me of distorting Quran)

”No distinction between prophets”

As I explained, this suggests that a believer should accept prophethood of all prophets and their messages. Message brought by each prophet aims to establish a close relationship between man and his Creator. I fail to see your point here.

Are you suggesting that “Moses” is the same prophet as “Jesus”? Or do you think they were two ``distinct`` prophets? Ahem ...

On ranks of Prophets

Allah tells us about differences in the ranks of prophets, since it is relevant to a believer. This contradicts your interpretation of ``no distinction between prophets``.

References on “khatam-un-nabiyeen”

Since Quran was revealed in Arabic, understanding a thing or two about Arabic language may be helpful.

I cited Arabic references of khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya which suggest exalted rank and authenticity.

The said meaning is further supported by the recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha ”do call him (Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him”. This saying underscores same meaning of ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` as the two references cited above.

Earlier (#256) I explained 4 different aspects of “khatam-un-nabiyeen”. For example, Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) verifies prophethood of several prophets. Without his authentication, one can only wonder who Jesus, Moses, Abraham were. But through the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) we know that they were prophets of Allah.

This is consistent with meaning of ``Seal of Prophets`` that I have suggested.

On verse 4:69 of Qruan

It suggests that believers in Allah and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will be in company of prophets etc. This has a literal as well as a spiritual meaning. If taken literally, it suggests appearance of prophets among Muslims. I fail to see your point here as well.

masadi (#269):

You are quoting what I wrote out of context. I wrote …

”And if you think I am `distorting` Quran, you can go to hell.”

Then I added,

”If this harsh language bothers you, refrain from getting carried away next time …”.

This means that you are out of line in accusing others of “distorting” Quran when they disagree with you. Learn to share your views with civility, without accusing others of dishonesty. Is this too much to ask for??

More later …

Re: # 276
Discoverer, I think you haven’t discovered your brains yet…. It is resting inside your ass in case you are looking for it. Wahabis are followers of Abdul Wahab of the 18th century, and prophets die in all kindsa ways… I don’t know which is worse, being dragged on a Cross in Bethlehem or dying in one’s diarrhea or having your head presented on a platter to Yazid.. It it jokers like you who distinguish between various kinds of death.

#277 by discoverer

Most welcome, atleast there are no human sacrifices in our religion so feel free to explore our religion, Don`t worry about all this hardtalk.

Sure, Kafirs are not considered humans anyway which is why they can be blown to bits by the Momeens without any compunctions.

Yeh 1 think i forgot to mention what are non muslims doing in this thread, preparing to accept ISLAM....Most welcome, atleast there are no human sacrifices in our religion so feel free to explore our religion, Don`t worry about all this hardtalk. Islam is like a perfactly cut diamond, each side of this diamond is its firkas and every side of this diamond reflects it own colour & beauty.

re-salim chuhan

Sir/Lady,
May I remind you that Shias are not the ones who separated from the mainstream. In fact, Shias (partisans, friends) of Hazrat Imam Ali were those Muslims who were loyal to the Caliph. The Sunnis came much much later, as followers of the four Schools of Thought - Hanafis, Malekis, Shafeis, and Hanbalis. So, in the beginning there were Muslims who followed Imam Ali and they were called Shias. Then there were others who followed Muawiyah or just didn`t care, or were against both. The latter were called Kharijites. As for Ahmedis being a money-making religion, what do you think of Saudi Wahabbis? If wealth is a measurement of hypocrisy, then Wahabbis take the cake.

First of all let me remind you that shias were not at all loyal to the caliph, in fact they hated Hazrat Abu bakr & Hazrat Omar (R.A). because according to there history they tried to kill Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H)(naaouzubillah), Hazrat Imam Ali came long after the prophets dead so what makes shia the olderst and original.

What I will target is the origin of the Shia – of which there are enough variations to confuse even a keen student of religion. Some of the more common versions, forwarded mainly by Sunni scholars are:

The Shias came into existence decades or even centuries after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and thus don’t count as an official Islamic sect.

The Shias are Rafidhi - meaning those who rebelled or revolted, because they do not accept the first three caliphs after the Prophet (pbuh) as rightful leaders.

The Shias are an offshoot of the Jews that combine aspects of Judaism and Islam and thus do not profess not pure Islam.

Amongst accusations levelled at the Shia to alienate them from the Muslim community is that:

They glorify their Imams to the height of divinity, worshipping them and raising them in status above the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

They have their own version of the Qur’an with parts added or removed at their convenience.

That they accuse great companions of hypocrisy and insult them out of a personal hatred, because Ali bin Abi Talib (the First Imam) lost the seat of power after the Prophet (pbuh)
Sunnis` on the other hand come from the word sunna` meaning the doing of the Prophet what prophet did and the way he prayed and all are following by HIS followers and these are sunnis`.
Wahabies as you mentioned means in arabic:: A person who believe in the absolute being or pure thought of light & thats Allah . Many muslims still forget to find the true meaning of the arabic words and tends to consider it in to something else. However, this makes even our Prophet Muhammad as wahaby as he believe in only 1 god. If wahabies are only saudi and money making ppl then don`t forget that Imam- Kabba are also a Wahabis & many SUFI scholars were wahabbies such as BABA BULLAY SHA etc.

Talking about Ahmadies, There leader MIrza died of diarrhea. If he really was a promised massieh as claim by ahmaddies, http://www.qadiani.org/death.html thens he should have removed the sorrows of many muslims by defeating dajjal and destroying christaninty as mention in several hadith. Infact he didn`y do a shit about bringing muslims closer. Well i don`t see how you all don`t see the disfference b/w a fabrication and the truth.

Therefore i am repeating your statement, so in the beginning there were muslim only and they followed Prophet Muhammad and they did what prophet muhammad did in HIS life. Remember, Quran has repeatedly mentioned in the holy Quran that ``there will be no more Messanger after Muhammad (P.B.U.H).