Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

Re: # 21 we r not talking about indiviuals here, we r talking about the ahmadiyas, it was created with mischief in mind, this was a creation of the british to divide the moslimsof the undivided india.
the british were real scared of the spread of islam in the sub continent,andthus this,

heahmeadiyas were created bythe british to divide the moslims of thesub continent ,like they tried to break up the shia moslims by introducing bahhaism , both fell flat on thier faces and then they invented thewhabbisism
since the earlier 2 were with the idea of the awaited savioure, this time (wahabbism) was direct contactwith Allah (swt)--- it all stinks

Re: # 287 salam, u bet then the BUSH age should be called so

You FOOL!!!!
NO one BELIEVE in MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H) HE`s a messager.
What`s the point of writing when you don`t know what actually happening here.

satar

- If you think suicide bombings are jihad, you’ve got it all wrong. And that’s the travesty of ummah. Retaliation against injustice does not mean engaging in merciless killings. There are better ways to retaliate. Suicide bombings and unnecessary violence are not jihad.

I think you mis read my post i NEVER mention that suicide bombing is called jihad coz i don`t believe that it is the work of muslim ummah. Throughout history retaliation by muslim has been seen the greatest being the end of crusade. Suicide bombing as i repeat IS NOT HOW MUSLIMS fight AND i mean any muslims. Tell me when were ruthless killing was done by muslims, in pallestine, kashmir, bosni etc only muslims are killed or slaughtered therfore claiming that muslim believe in violence is a inappropriate statement. I had refered you post 103 but there is NO reference of any HADITH.

I gave you all the reference from different sources-- muslims & non muslim now its up to you to decide. I usually never take part in any discussion but in this case i wanted to know what makes Ahmaddis different but i am still under douth coz the point Ahmaddis raised is not at all valid. Any how, Allah has given us brain to think and move toward where we think is right as it is said it is better to light a candle then to curse the darkness. Goodluck

Re: # 316
Discoverer, what is such a big deal if Mohammad is the last prophet or the first prophet? You can believe what you want, but how can you tell others what to believe? Are you saying that your belief must be accepted by others? Are you out of your mind? Do you really think that the rest of the world loses sleep over who the last prophet is?

discoverer,

- I’ll repeat: Hadith about return of Issa-ibne-Marriam is a metaphor. It refers to appearance of a prophet among Muslims, just like Issa appeared among Jews. Refer to my post #103 for details.

- If you think suicide bombings are jihad, you’ve got it all wrong. And that’s the travesty of ummah. Retaliation against injustice does not mean engaging in merciless killings. There are better ways to retaliate. Suicide bombings and unnecessary violence are not jihad.

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Look, I am not sure what is that you are trying to prove. Just let Ahmadis peacefully practice what they believe. You can consider them non-Muslims, that’s your choice. But imprisoning Ahmadis for claiming to be Muslims defies reason and dignity. Live and let live man … and let Allah do the rest.

If you continue to ramble foolishly, I`ll ignore your comments. Beyond that, good luck.

sattar

let`s see, ``your mirza claimed that he was the Second coming of the Christ (it is a belief of Muslims that the Promised Messiah “the Awaited One” will return)`` this line i copied from the main article. And you still consider him dead. If there were hadith about Prophethood what were they and where are they. NOW i m sure you don`t read my post and that`s the reason you are repeating your statements to make it a solid proved. Your are outnumbered against the actually fact and hadith.

``- Let me clarify what may have been a bit confusing statement: Islam severely restricts conditions for fighting jihad. However, this concept has been abused by ullema and ummah.``

OOO i got it you mean all these freedom cause in palestine, bosnia, kashmir etc is not jihad. If thats not jihad what is jihad, jihad literally means to retaliate against injustice. Ofcourse your british didnot wanted muslim community to fight against them so they use mirza and he called jihad haram.

``- Miracles … prophets flying to skies to meet god, parting ocean, raising the dead … have been misunderstood. This is the corruption of Islam that I earlier mentioned. It turns religion into a fairy tale, devoid of reason and intellect.``

You again did not answer my question how could your mirza recieved revelation without diving powers, remember diving power is a MIRACLE. You can`t explain God mathmatically or by Physical law.

I AM TELLING YOU AGAIN READ MY POST ESPECIALLY 307

discoverer,

- There are several ahadith that support continuation of prophethood. However, ullema now ignore these ahadith. The hadith about return of Issa-ibne-Marriam is one, but is misunderstood. It suggests that a prophet will appear among Muslims, just like Issa appeared among Jews. Refer to post #103 for details.

- The link I posted suggests that several scholars supported continuation of prophethood. I don’t follow your point.

- You are right, I do not believe Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive. He has died and will not return.

- Let me clarify what may have been a bit confusing statement: Islam severely restricts conditions for fighting jihad. However, this concept has been abused by ullema and ummah. Refer to post #57 for a brief segment on this.

- Miracles … prophets flying to skies to meet god, parting ocean, raising the dead … have been misunderstood. This is the corruption of Islam that I earlier mentioned. It turns religion into a fairy tale, devoid of reason and intellect.

sattar2

``I posted a link for your reference. Your comment suggests that … it is an Ahmadi web-site, therefore it is nonsense. What kind of reasoning is this? You sound more like a bigot than an intelligent person.

The link I posted adequately suggests that some extremely well-reputed scholars througout Islamic history have accepted continuation of prophethood. If you consider this nonsense, it is your problem, not mine.

You have simply failed to put forward an intelligent argument on this account

Your post clearly shows your failure of reading my last post, althought as YOU claim so that many scholar has admitted the continuaity of Prophethood, there is no one who believe that our Prophet Muhammad had sadi any thing about the prophet coming after HIM. If i am a bigot then can you would had already know that there are many non muslim schorlars who also help in clearing our douth about any particular issue like this one. I gurantee you there are no scholars who talked about the continuation of Prophethood. I am only bringing non muslim scholar in this issue because you don`t trust our scholars (Mullah for you) & we don`t believe in your ideology.

``Mainstream Muslims, led by their ullema, have twisted concept of jihad and turned it into a violent ideology. They believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive, and resides up in the heavens, and will return at a later time. They believe that prophets in the past performed miracles … where they parted ocean by waving a hand, revived the dead, visited the skies to meet with God, and so on.

Is this what your mirza said in his revelation. What could be more miraculous then God communicating with a human by sending revelation, BUT you don`t trust in miracles.
The concept of jihad is simple defending oneself from corruption OR fight for justice, BUT you dont trust in jihad, that mean the battle for badr faught by the prophet was WRONG, yeah now i remember your mirza said in his speech `` he said jihad is haram and we should fight the bristish.
You don`t believe Prophet issa is alive???? IN THAT CASE how come you mirza claim that he is the promish messaih, meaning he is a liar!!!. Even Christains, jews believe that Hazrat Issa is alive in some form and will come return.
Miracle are the trademark of Prophet, miracle are the mere image of Allah (S.T) power which is clearly seen in nature. Every religion who believe there is god, BELIEVES in miracles. Miracles just have different meaning these days but miracles happen just we don`t understand them.
Therefore your believe is not of a clever person.

`` And that belief in Quran does not conflict with science, rather its conrrect understanding is consistent with scientific views. Miracles performed by prophets have been misunderstood, and when properly understood, they do not violate any physical laws.``

Even our scholars says the same thing nothin new about it. It is a scientific prove that miracles or extreme condition can be applied if an external agencies work efficenetly. The creation Arora in Arctic and Antartica can be called a miracle but at the same time it is bond by physical challenges.
Prophet Muhammad went for Mirage and span a long pperiod in heaven and the time passed on earth was just 1 second that what WE mainstream believe not you right. but do you know Albert Einstine wrote his thesis General theory of relativity in which he explained that it is POSSIBLE!!!!

`` If you think that Mirza Sahib started a new religion, then by the same token you must agree that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also started another religion.``

Prophet Muhammad did started a new religion and that is Islam.

``You are incorrect on this account. If you are going to drag what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, note that he did predict coming of a prophet, which he referred to as Issa-ibne-Marriam, in the latter days of Islam. Refer to my post #103 on this board for details.

In one account you say that Hazrat Issa will never return as claim by your mirza then how come you are saying that a prediction of another prophet is VALID. As the name suggest issa ibne marriam mean Issa son of marriam meaning Hazrat issa will return but he will not preach a new religion, he`ll be a mere man, not a prophet but he will be among the good MAN, a muslim LEADER not prophet.

ghilzai (#306):

For a Muslim, teachings of Quran should come before democracy. I hope you can agree to this simple point. For example, would it be OK for Muslims to democratically abolish fasting during Ramzaan and make fasting a crime? From an Islamic viewpoint, this would not be OK.

Quran does not give anyone the right to declare others as non-Muslims. Such authority rests only with Allah Almighty. Your democracy declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims. It made it a crime for an Ahmadi to say “as’salamo alaikom”, to say azaan, to carry a copy of Quran.

This shows how low your democracy has sunk.

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But this is not the end. Violent persecution of Ahmadis continues to this day, esp. in small towns and villages in Pakistan. Their homes, mosques, businesses are attacked by mobs who are riled against Ahmadis based on lies and propaganda.

This shows how low, collectively, the ummah has sunk.

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If you fail to acknowledge this problem, it reflects poorly on you as a human and as a Muslim.

discoverer (#307):

I posted a link for your reference. Your comment suggests that … it is an Ahmadi web-site, therefore it is nonsense. What kind of reasoning is this? You sound more like a bigot than an intelligent person.

The link I posted adequately suggests that some extremely well-reputed scholars througout Islamic history have accepted continuation of prophethood. If you consider this nonsense, it is your problem, not mine.

You have simply failed to put forward an intelligent argument on this account.

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Here’s why mainstream Islamic beliefs are in need for reformation …

Mainstream Beliefs

Mainstream Muslims, led by their ullema, have twisted concept of jihad and turned it into a violent ideology. They believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive, and resides up in the heavens, and will return at a later time. They believe that prophets in the past performed miracles … where they parted ocean by waving a hand, revived the dead, visited the skies to meet with God, and so on. Such twisting of faith takes a believer away from true message of God and turns religion into a fairy tale. This corruption creates a culture of pirs and taveez where a person feels he can no longer reach Allah by himself. There’s lot more … but I hope you get the point.

Ahmadi-Muslim Beliefs

We believe that Mirza Sahib is a prophet raised by Allah Almighty to bring people back to true message of Quran. Quran tells us that Allah raised prophets to remind and to warn people as people went astray. There’s nothing unusual about Allah raising another prophet as people in general, and Muslims in particular, have gone astray from the teachings of Quran.

Mirza Sahib explained, through reasoning and through references from Quran, the true concept of jihad which shuns violence and emphasizes prayer, patience, and asking Allah for help. Ahmadi-Muslims also believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) has passed away like any other human being and will not return. And that belief in Quran does not conflict with science, rather its conrrect understanding is consistent with scientific views. Miracles performed by prophets have been misunderstood, and when properly understood, they do not violate any physical laws.

Universality of Religion

You say that every religion expresses the same truth. I agree. If you think that Mirza Sahib started a new religion, then by the same token you must agree that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also started another religion. The problem did not lie with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but with those who failed to understand the universality of his message. Same applies to Mirza Sahib, in my view.

Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

You are incorrect on this account. If you are going to drag what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, note that he did predict coming of a prophet, which he referred to as Issa-ibne-Marriam, in the latter days of Islam. Refer to my post #103 on this board for details.

sattar

First of all, the link you posted below is from a AHMADIS COMMUNITY SITE, therefore it is total nonsense to give reference to these type of sites.

The Qur`an regards itself as coming in fulfillment of earlier prophecy:

Say, whether or not you believe in it, the fact is that those who possessed knowledge before it fall on their faces in humble prostration when it is recited to them. And they say, Glory to our Lord and Sustainer: Surely the promise of Our Lord and Sustainer was to be fulfilled! (17:107-108; see also, 7:157, 61:6).

But it does not prophesy for the coming after it of another revelation. Its prophecy is only of its own inevitable final victory:

He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all religion, however much those who practice shirk may be averse (61:9).

This prevailing of Islam is not understood to be through any human force, but simply the result of the inevitable victory of a truer expression of the same religion over other expressions. Notice that the Qur`an does not say ``prevail over all religions`` but over all religion (in the singular). Every religion is really trying to express the same truth. Islam is the clearest and most effective expression of that truth and therefore is destined to replace all other expressions. It is like when a better and more economical model of a product such as the computer or the car comes on the market it necessarily replaces after due time the older less efficient and more expensive model.

Now a question for you, If your mirza was really a prophet ehn what sort of revelation did he recieved & how and what sorts of changes in Islamic society did these revelation made other then starting a new religion.

okay here is somthing which will some what HELP my points, Hazrat Isa or Jesus Christ prophcized the coming of Prophet Muhammad after HIM during his life & this is CLEARLY mentioned in christains` Testemony and bible. Hazrat Musa or moses prophecized the arrival of Isa during his life, BUT Prophet Muhammad did not prophecied any one coming after HIM, WHY??? -- because no one is suppose to come after word as describe in the QURAN and i have quoted the verses above.

Since i mentiond that the reference that you gave are from AHMADIS COMMUNITY i`ll give you now a reference from non muslim scholars. According to Christain scholars who just like us went deep in the biblotical words suggested tat Hazrat Isa mention while taking to his followers, tell them that another Paraclete will come and remind humans of True GOD,

|| The following are extracted from this site ||
|| http://www.mostmerciful.com/prophecy.htm ||

``When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me.`` John 15:26

Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. ``he``, Prophet Muhammad.

Now sattar and all the believer of prophecies & new messengers from Allah, could you point out any where in the Hadith that a new Prophet was bond to come over us. And don`t forget to tell me what Mirza`s revelation did for mankind.

NOTE- I would like you all to at least go through the site mentioned above.

We believe in domocracy and a true democracy is that it`s practiced well in all we do in our lives.

Ahmadis today propagate that they are a subject to nstitutionalized discrimination in Pakistan and elsewhere. My question would be that if people of a country say that they are not muslims and they should be treated like that .... then this is it. The wealth and network of ahmadis is not hidden from any one. If they can get discriminative laws thrown out by and act of Parliment, sure why not ..... but till then they have to wait and live with wishes of 150 Million Pakistani Muslims.

Re: # 306

>>>We believe in domocracy and a true democracy is that it`s practiced well in all we do in our lives.

Ahmadis today propagate that they are a subject to nstitutionalized discrimination in Pakistan and elsewhere. My question would be that if people of a country say that they are not muslims and they should be treated like that .... then this is it. The wealth and network of ahmadis is not hidden from any one. If they can get discriminative laws thrown out by and act of Parliment, sure why not ..... but till then they have to wait and live with wishes of 150 Million Pakistani Muslims. <<<<


Ghilzai, you are talking thru your ass. What democracy are you talking about? When has there been a democracy in Pakistan? Are you telling us that if Pakistanis democratically decided that Quran a piece of junk not worth the paper it is written on, that will be acceptable to you? Hello? Since when are people’s religions decided by democracy? Well, Mukhtaran mai’s fate was decided democratically by your fellow Muslims, so it is understandable why you would feel what you feel.

You sound like a sour jealous prick talking about Ahmadi’s wealth. Yeah, burn baby burn.

masadi MiaN,

Final comments ... as I head off for the weekend ...

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You are trying to create a whole now concept (end of proophethood) based on one word ... only one word of Quran. And this one word ... ``khatam/seal`` ... when viewed closely, does not support your view either. I know life can be tough at times ...

- You over-played the ``no distinction between prophets`` card. But this conflicted with reason as well other verses of Quran.

- Your next attempt was the ``drink sealed with musk`` reference from Quran. As I pointed out, musk does not ``seal/close`` a drink! However, the drink achieves fullness and perfection with musk. This reference supports my view ... for which I remain thankful to you.

- And you`ve ignored Arabic quote and references I cited. Quran is in Arabic ... you know ...

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My advice is to give up this silly pursuit of yours. Look, even Urstruly no longer argues on this issue. He merely insists that Ahmadis are non-Muslims, since ullema say so ... and prophethood had ended, since ullema say so. It is this ``why`` part that he has trouble explaining ... and you do too ...

You too have failed to make a simple point. It is now time to give it up and to take a hike. I am sure you can help the ummah in other ways ... debating this issue was just not one of them ...