South Asian Socialism

Re: # 198

tahmed32

(A) Firstly you should remember that as with any branch of knowledge one should fit an explanation to the trends not the trends to the explanation. So the trend is that income disparity is increasing. This is a fact as I tried to show in #193 even if you do not accept the latter part of the post. At the risk of repeating myself:

> There are continuing trends increasing and continuing to enforce economic disparity as pointed out in the UN Human Development Report of 2005. 2.5 billion people .......< etc etc.

So immigration in and of itself is not reversing this trend. This ought to be accepted between us and this is why it is, as you would put it, ``a drop in the bucket``.

(B) You state regarding foreign remittances:

>The fact is that remittances by immigrants are today a very significant source of ``foreign aid`` to developing countries. They are greater in magnitude than ODA (Official Development Assistance, which includes bilateral as well as multilateral aid) and they come with no political strings attached and in the form of grants rather than loans !!.<

I agree with you that remittances are greater than governmental aid. But this infact demonstrates the paltry nature of foreign aid moreso than the significance of remittances. The UN aims for aid target of 0.7% of GDP. However, we find America giving out aid of 0.1% of GDP and even that selectively and with strings attatched. Only 4 countries meet the target. I agree that remittances are of benefit to any developing country -for example some $300 mn - $400 mn USD are sent back to Pakistan every month. However, this is not enough to reverse the trend of economic disparity. For example, in a seperate discussion with Zeemax we had established that Pak maybe losing upto $1 bn USD / month on an import vs. export basis. As Zeemax put it, this was tantamount `to selling the family silver`. So the disparity is enforced & continuing.

(C) Regarding:

>Your point (2) is invalid too. What used to be called the ``brain drain`` 30 years ago has in fact proved over time to be a ``brain gain`` for developing countries.<

Really? For example, a recent paper by F Mullan in NEJM `The Metrics of the Physician Brain Drain` (2005) established that in terms of, physicians a brain drain is continuing. Some 60,000 Indian & 12,800 Pakistani trained physicians have ended up in the quartet of US, UK, Canada & Australia. When migration of physicians from these countries does occur, it is most likely to one of the other of these countries. So Pakistan has lost over 10% of its total physican workforce, with similar figures throught the rest of the region. This is simply unsustainable and tells us a great deal about why the Pak health service is near to collapse.

(C2) Regarding the brain gain hypothess - this is a theory which has been speculated and possibly does apply in some select industries e.g. IT in India. Granted. No serious authority, however, makes the claim, as you seem to, that this is the predominant trend amongst all industries. What is said is that there is hope, there is a potential for a brain gain to reverse the brain drain. It needs to happen but has not happened yet.

Incidentally even supporters of the `brain gain` hypothesis states that a period of `brain drain` must exist. (See: http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg47.PDF). The question is that how long does that period last. For Pak physicians, and most other industries the period shows no signs of abating.

The `brain gain` model may be a way out, but it is not predominant, or even mirror the facts on the ground. There is a large amount of work yet to do before the trend reverses. The take home message: the brain drain is still a dangerous phenomena.

(D) As regards your dispute with me of global corporations increasing/decreasing disparity, this is a genuine disagreement between us. I have referred you to my reference on this matter. I am not going to repeat it because it is long and you would be best served reading the original source. If you can, however, point towards a genuine critique of such a world-view feel free to do so.

With Regards

Musa

hamidm writes in #196 <<< P.s. masadi still does not understand productivity and i don`t have the time ...... we need some sophomore interns on the chowk who can explain these simple things to the pea-brained commies and the brain-dead islamists ....... i think arjun would be a good candiadate - sign him up! >>>

It is just too hard for this A.H to come to terms with the fact that he has spent the last 30 years of his life giving the corporations some c@ck and bull story and taking the cash that belonged to the workers unjustifiably. He has no clue about reading aggregate data and what it shows and how it can be interpreted. As usual he is stuck with the example of his gardener or the few workers he knows whose unrepresentative experience (compared to the rest of the country) he guages through his stereotypical lenses that have adapted to give fake meaning to a life spent working a lie. A pathetic life by a loser who has learned to live with a corrupt immoral conscience that justifies to him that fleecing corporations out of the money that rightfully belongs to the workers is ``work``.

#219 hamidm2

.... so how do you propose we run GM and GE ?

Here is an idea ..

Corporate CEO’s compensation should be 1 Million dollars/year (to pay rent and be able to buy food) + huge compensation based upon say, 5 year performance of the company stock. By the way, one mutual fund company does exactly that – managers’ compensation is based upon rotating four year performance, not quarterly or yearly performance. The fund is very conservatively run with excellent long term performance.

Some variation of this will take care of their temptations towards accounting gimmicks and short term investments decisions. In fact that might be the reason why start up companies use their human capital much better since their Incentive Stock Options wont amount to anything if they make too many unwise short term oriented decisions.

Seems like Chowkies are going to solve all american problems :)

Re: # 218

.... so how do you propose we run GM and GE ? ...... if we give them away to the private equity groups they are more than likely to go out and hire some of the same guys to run the pieces after they are done taking them apart and selling what they can sell ......... do you think a single individual can run boeing ?............ walmart is basically owned and run by a family and so is ford - are they your idea of well run companies that take care of old joe six pack ?

........ and it would surprise you to know that some of these private equity firms have bigger jets and yatches than the ``corporatists`` .......... guess who owns the biggest yatch ``octupus``? ....... well, i will be darned if it isn`t the capitalist paul allen !!!!

Hamid:

Logically when a group of individuals get together there is totally different behavior than of individuals. Corporate managers form a group, and to keep their integrity they make good governance policies. These good corporate policies are always time or era dependent.

For example, these days touching females inappropriately would lead to sexual harrassment charges. Coporate whistle blowers are yet another example that Joe Schmuck American controls the corporate executives behavior. Yes, in my strictest definition of a capitalist, the Godfather mafia is also a capitalist. But, you know very well, that I am not referring to that kind of a capitalist.

Corporate managers by the very nature of being together are against those who have brought in capital for the betterment of themselves (the capitalists), but the executives take away a big chunk of the generated profits, which rightfully does not belong to them (the executives).

Are you getting a clearer picture of my argument?

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 214

behram,

....... do you think time warner and joe public would have been better off carl had managed to oust the management and gain control of the company ? ........ do you think he was really looking out for you and me ? ...... do you think blockbuster is better off since he took over - are they giving you free movies ?....... actually the stupidest thing they did was do away with the late fee ! .........

....... how much money did kirk kerkorian make whan he went after chrysler ?...... did he benefit from the government bailout ?...... if so, is he a real ``capitalist`` ?

........... and what do you think about the cabal of capitalists known as the carlyle group ?

......... actually you don`t have to answer these questions - they are rhetorical ........ all i am trying to say there is all corporatists are not bad and neither are the corporate raiders ........... private equity firms are no better - in their case no one what is going on in smoke the smoke filled rooms ............ given a choice between the three i would go with the publically traded company which is the most transparent .......... all you need to do is a strong and honest board ..... but how do you get rid of the good old boy network, you might ask ?............ i never claimed to have all the answers ...........

#215 by behram1 on May 17, 2006 2:21pm PT

Unless you were born here, you came to this country and ``stole`` a job from a hard working american mechanical engineer/plumber.

Re: # 192 by tahmed32 on May 17, 2006 4:46am PT

{In fact this example proves the opposite. Namely that corporations, in promoting immigration to the US, is reducing income disparities at the global level.}

I don`t see how this is possible? Why would out bound immigration be required in the first place? In 1986, Ronald Regan granted amnesty to 3 million immigrants due to the pressure of the farming community. Farmers were losing workers to the industrial america, and population had moved to the cities, hence they needed some more hands. Hence, they (the corporation) made sure that they brought in more help.

No brains were coming in from south of the border. Then, the industrialists (corporatists) got bolder and worked up the same game plan. But this time their slogan was that US needs more engineers. Hence, all those H1-B visa holders. Atleast this time around with the educated force it was somewhat legal.

And then all those human smugglers that were shipping in plane loads of people illegally.

But, in the process, the middle class got shafted.

Yes, this is a new lingo regarding ``corporatists`` (is this really a word, or did you just invent it?).

{But Jose Lawnmowerez is happy since he now has money in his pocket. And at the global level, reductions in the north-south divide are good for the children of both Joe Jobless and of Jose Lawnmowerez since this leads to a more stable and just world. }

Academically this maybe true. But, if you look at Mexico, it is the same crap as it was back in 1986, when the general amnesty was given. With that amnesty, it was also agreed upon that the US would make every effort to upgrade the Mexican standard of living, so that we may not have this huge inflow of illegals, but it did not.

Why? Some would argue that during the Clinton administration nothing was done to fulfill the requirement of the deal between the Republicans with the majority Democratic Congress of 1986.

{And you wont find any american politician making this argument since his constituency is Joe Jobless, and not unborn generations in mexico (or pakistan for that matter). And that is why the lengthy quote from a US politician provided by SR #185 does not touch on this aspect either. }

Actually, if you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN that is exactly what his claim to fame is, that Americans are loosing jobs due to outsourcing. Nowadays, Newt Gingrich is talking about the lack of adequate engineers, etc.

And regarding illegals, the politicians are talking about ``breaking the law``, ``english language``, ``rasing the american flags``, and ``assimilation``. Incidentally, all of these issues that the anglo-Americans do not like, and are saying about illegals, fit exactly on almost all recently arrived immigrants.

{In other words, as confucius said, be careful what you wish for. What Joe Jobless wishes for is not necessarily good for his kids.}

Joe Jobless wants a job and to raise his standard of living. He does not want a hand out from any government. He does not want a stressed out family. He does not want him and his wife to sleep on separate beds. He does not want his family to be destroyed due to the shenanigans of the corporation, whether it is in auto, pharma, or farming.

Another angle to look at all this is the failure of the latest round of WTO and their trade negotiations at Doha.

Respectfully submitted,

Hamid:

Really, you knew it all along what I was trying to say. Didn`t you? Thanks for finally getting it, that it is the capitalist who should be admired and respected, and not those damn office politicians who are otherwise known as corporatists.

Now, how is your cafe latte doing?

Respectfully submitted,

#191 Ur story is apocryphal. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QDOS
Bill Gates no doubt is a business genius. Nonetheless he was in the right place @ the right time & had the right connections. His mom was a trustee of the Univ of Washington Regents & so was an IBM exec who told her abt IBM looking 4 an OS. The rest is history..

behram,

this will make you happy ...... here is what one of my favourite capitalists has to say about ``corporatists`` : ``Too often it`s not the most creative guys or the smartest. Instead, it`s the ones who are best at playing politics and soft-soaping their bosses. Boards don`t like tough, abrasive guys`` ...........

...... there is a rumor that carl has pictures of all the ceo`s who he has fired all over his office ! ..... if he had his way he would have mounted their heads ! .......... his most famous saying is ``if you want a friend, get a dog !``......
......

Re: # 209

Zeemax:

This could be sold as a doodle game on your cell phone waiting for the flight to catch... And become a capitalist.... drive whatever you want, live wherever you want, and enjoy ... fruits of your creativity.

Anil

Re: # 207

Arjun:

``What about people borrowing money from their neighbours and friends to grow their business? That`s essentially what a stock market is, except the friend part..``

Also, the ``borrowing money`` part is different. Stock market is the most efficient way to provide capital to grow economies. Even China is aping it. Of all places it sent a team to study Bombay Stock Exchange - the oldest stock exchange in Asia.

Anil

ArjunM,

Re: # 203

behram,

...... stop going on and on about the ``corporatists`` ....... the capitalists are still well and alive and nowdays the ``best and the brightest`` aspire to work for them ....the most famous capitalist is named carlyle !..... here are some others :


Berkshire Hathaway
Cerberus Capital Management
CD&R
CMGI
Forstmann Little
GS Capital Partners
HM Capital Partners
Knowledge Universe
KKR
SOFTBANK
Texas Pacific Group
Thomas H. Lee Partners

....... not to mentikon guys like carl ichan and kerkorian who make your corporate fiends look like a bunch of boy scouts .........

....... now what do you have to say ? ..... or are you still waiting for the next henry ford or bill gates .......... and henry ford was not a very nice man either

#202 by behram1 on May 17, 2006 9:30am PT


Now, I go to the stock market and float shares. As soon as I float shares of my company, I become a corporatist.


So your beef is with the stock market and publicly listed companies?

How do you think average Joe Schmuck`s 401K grows? do you know what % of the American population has invested(and made money) in long term investments in the stock market?


Now, I grow more and more, and heck, I need more and more money. Then of course the law of diminishing return sets in.


So the solution is to abolish the stock market and limit companies to the size they can grow to organically without any infusion of capital?

What about people borrowing money from their neighbours and friends to grow their business? That`s essentially what a stock market is, except the friend part..