Has Higher Education Failed India?

#76 by jang

[#75 actually you have a great argument against reservatoins..look at brahmins. years of reservation policy and what do they have to show for it? poverty, backwardness and famous scientists countable on fingers of two hands. LOL.]


Yes. Quite unlike you muslims in India. Hundreds of years of reservation policy under successive Muslim rulers and what do you have to show for it? Wealth, progressiveness and famous scientists coming out of the woodwork.




[perfact argument against reservations..not good for the society, not good for the community (in the long term).]


Here`s some conclusions reached by following this genius`s secular/progressive/empathetic line of logic:

Q: Why are the blacks in Africa backward today?

Ans: Lack of a quota system. Oppression by non-blacks.

Q: Why are the Australian Bushmen backward today?

Ans: No quota system. Oppression by non-bushmen.

Q: How did the Europeans make scientific discoveries?

Ans. Because they had the quota system working for them.

Q. Why have the Chinese had advanced civilizations for thousands of years?

Ans. Quotas. What else?

Q: How did the Brahmins invent the decimal number system, astrology, philosophy?

Ans. The quota system, of course.

Ref mineguruji #64

[i m very pleased with a suggestion that all OBC/ST patients should go to OBC/ST doctors...]

ope, I said the politicians should be forced to go to the OBC/SC/ST doctors.

[.....that will be extremely good because unlike the open category doctor who comes in merit by leaking papers and flexing their financial muscles, the OBC doctor is here through hard earned merit, ...]

Yes, merit is (according to you) where OBC+ 20% of the marks = Forward Castes + 100% of the marks. If they are here on merit, why is there a need to declare your OBC status on the application?

#75 actually you have a great argument against reservatoins..look at brahmins. years of reservation policy and what do they have to show for it? poverty, backwardness and famous scientists countable on fingers of two hands. LOL. perfact argument against reservations..not good for the society, not good for the community (in the long term).

#74 by jang

[#74 pao lago panditji,

what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot, and its due to the affirmative action afforded to them by the society (am i claim it was to some extent forced by the rigitdity of caste system). in the light of this, i fail to see any inherent greatness of brahmins in the fields of babu-giri, munshi-giri and pathshala master-giri. ]


Your statement

``what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot``

contradicts the following statement you made earlier:

``only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. ``

So no, that is not what you were trying to say AT ALL.


But anyway, coming to this latest post of yours....

The point of this discussion is not about the greatness of Brahmins, but about the OBCs, SCs and STs achieving great things.

There are many poor Brahmins (and Brahmins have traditionally not been rich), and there are many rich OBCs, SCa and STs in India today. The OBCs/SCs/STs need to achieve great things (with all the reservations and quotas accorded to them) for perceptions to change. And the achievements have to come in the form of great scientists, mathematicians etc. - they have to produce increasing numbers of world-class scientists and mathematicians, instead of graduates in History, Poiltical Science and Social Studies. Just whining and accusing the Brahmins and getting near 100% quotas won`t change anything. Except for destroying India`s competitiveness globally.


That is, and has always been, my point. Is this too hard to comprehend?

#74 pao lago panditji,

what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot, and its due to the affirmative action afforded to them by the society (am i claim it was to some extent forced by the rigitdity of caste system). in the light of this, i fail to see any inherent greatness of brahmins in the fields of babu-giri, munshi-giri and pathshala master-giri.

If by reading books one could become a doctor or an engineer or a historian than what is the need of the Universities and their highly paid teachers.

a common dillemma in Asia.for a couple of exception in the Far East..
we have been bellowing for reform of Democracy but not for the reform of the voter..

Still a long way to go..

#71 by jang

[#62 my threaded brother, no such luck. only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. i share your respect for the screw thread]

Just because you are under-educated does not diminish the achievements of the Brahmins. Instead of shooting your mouth off, do some research first.


[i personally think reservations are bad idea, but is a necessary evil.]

What do you think of 100% reservations, genius?


[in india a lot of hiring would happen via biradari system and there would be no chance for out-of biradari to get in.]

Do you have any statistics? There is so much quota in the government, that they cannot find qualified SC/STs to fill all the positions.


[look at the earlier ``private`` banks in bombay, and they were very clearly known as parsee banks or karwari banks etc. reservations is like democracy, ugly but what is the alternative?]

The alternative is for OBCs/SCs/STs to start their own banks and discriminate back. But that would require honest effort. Handouts are much easier. The lefties are always ready to lend their support.


Ideally, reservations should be reserved to elementary and high schools. If they have the money to graduate from elementary and high schools (and MANY OBCs, SCs, STs are much more affluent than MANY brahmins), they should use that opportunity to compete with others for undergraduate and postgraduate education. ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. SHOW ME ONE OBC/SC/ST who has scored high on a competitive exam who has been denied a job.

It is pathetic to see seemingly educated people falling for Congress Party votebank politics.

#62 my threaded brother, no such luck. only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. i share your respect for the screw thread, but no i was refering to the one hanging on the ear..one with the brahma knot ;-)

i personally think reservations are bad idea, but is a necessary evil. in india a lot of hiring would happen via biradari system and there would be no chance for out-of biradari to get in. look at the earlier ``private`` banks in bombay, and they were very clearly known as parsee banks or karwari banks etc. reservations is like democracy, ugly but what is the alternative?

Re: # 62
Harimau
I agree with you. I don`t think this article is quite the goods.

K_abcd
I`m not left or intellectual or OBC/SC/ST or any DLA or TLA. Just somebody who didn`t agree with your original post. My full name is there for you to see. I don`t have a nick. What`s yours?
Lastly I`m bored with this verbal jousting. So if you are personally offended by anything in any of my previous mails I apologise. If you want to feel you have won the argument that is your prerogative.

Cheers.
Sadanand

Re: # 67
[Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?]

My answer , you can`t see forest because of the trees. Since your premise is that I have not read the book there is nothing I can argue about. I shall take the same tack. You cannot even understand anything in this book that you claim to have read,.

Re: # 67
[Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?]

My answer , you can`t see forest because of the trees. Since your premise is that I have not read the book there is nothing I can argue about. I shall take the same tack. You cannot even understand anything in this book that you claim to have read,.

#60 by swarrier

[I`m at home now with Mr. Jared Diamond and his Guns and his Germs and Steel. By the way my copy is from the first American publishing in 1998 (funnily it was first published in the UK in 1997) so I had forgotten most of it. Thanks for helping me blow the dust of the covers.

If you will turn to page 218 (Blueprints and borrowed letters) you will see in the middle of the page (assuming you have a similar edition to mine) the statement
`` The two indisputably independent methods of writing were achieved by the Sumerians of Mesopotamia somewhat before 3000 B.C.and by Mexican Indians before 600 B.C. Egyptian writing of 3000 B.C. and Chinese writing (by 1300 B.C.) may also have arisen independently. Probably all other people s who have developed writing systems since then have borrowed, adapted or at least been inspired by existing systems.``

Further on page 227 ``Semites (Arabs) familiar with Egyptian hieroglyphics did begin to experiment with that logical step.`` ( meaning move from signs and logograms to consonantal alphabet, and so you see the Semites are considered to be a different race).

Then on 227 again last paragraph `` A far more important line evolved by way of the Aramaic alphabet , used for official documents of the Persian Empire, into the mordern Arabic, Hebrew, Indian. and South East Asian alphabets``

So you see I did read the book a long time ago.]


None of what you said above proves that. You could have grabbed a copy from somewhere on your way home.



[Only approaching senility makes me forget large parts of it. I shall not post anymore on this topic.]

Wise move. Discretion is the better part of valor.


AND YOU HAVE CRAFTILY AVOIDED ANSWERING THE QUESTION I RAISED IN MY POST # 58:


Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?

I`ll be waiting for your response.

#59 by swarrier


[I wasn`t talking about the hard sciences here. The two sentences were juxtaposed too closely. I was referring to your post as a whole. It reeks of nothing but a smug sense of superiority.]

One of the cardinal rules about debating on point is to stick to issues, and not make things personal or make ad-hominem attacks. Somehow I feel that my message has struck too close to home. Either you are a lefty ``intellectual`` or belong to the OBCs/SCs/STs.

It takes the deletion of only one letter in the genetic alphabet soup to reduce any of us to an incoherent and disfigured cripple. It is only an idiot who is smug about the intelligence (if any) that he is blessed with, or looks, or physical skills. He didn`t earn any of it. The best most he can do is feel happy about it.

What you interpreted as smugness is in reality irritation - that these under-achievers, who bear the lion`s share of the blame for their own situation today, should consistently and stridently keep moaning and groaning and complaining. Even more irritating are the pseudo-intellectuals of the liberal left who have joined the bandwagon of the dalitstan freakoids, the SC/ST whiners, and other assorted nutcases. People like this Abhishek Behl are a prime example.

Nothing will really change until these backward societies decide to take some responsibility and realize that nothing is going to change overnight. There needs to be a sea-change in their attitudes - less accusing and whining, and more effort and self-evaluation.



Now coming to your responses:

[Ancient egyptians are not necessarily considered a part of the semitic race. Only the Copts consider themselves descendants of the ancient egyptians and they feel they are not Arabic. ]

Regardless. The point is that anthropologists consider ancient Egypt as a melting pot - where various african and middle-eastern races mixed for thousands of years. (YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) So heiroglyphics is not an ``black african`` invention.


[Your original post said 1900 for the Vai script. We won`t go into your got it routine here. ]

Whether I mistyped 1800 as 1900 is unimportant. I was still in the right half of the milennium. (YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>)The point is that for THOUSANDS OF YEARS there was no written script in black Africa, IN SPITE OF CONTINUOUS INTERACTIONS WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD.


[Nope following the same line of reasoning the Dark continent really came into contact with other civilisations around the 1700`s. 100 years is not too long for intelligent people to fashion a script. ]

(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) No, they had continuous interactions with the outside world, especially through the Middle East, for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.


[You asked for one scientist. I gave you one. ]

(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) But not a really famous one.


[Repeating it loud and often doesn`t change anything. I thought going of at tangents was what you used to accuse other people of. My reply still remains the same. Your original post is prejudiced. Everything else is an attempt to refute what I wrote and justify your bits by hedging about.]

I think any perceptive reader would realize who it is who is ``hedging about`` here. Trying a ``gotcha`` on a ``1800/1900`` typo while ignoring the main point is what everybodyt can make out.


[Stephen Jay Gould knew about George Washington Carver. He`s good enough for me.]

Good enough for you maybe. It figures.


[Jagdish Chandra Bose is known to Indians. And he was a great scientist no doubt. But he`s not exactly known to the hoi polloi. Besides I thought the argument was about being a respected scientist. Not whether the man in the street knew anything about you.]

My typo - I meant Satyendra Nath Bose. But Jagadish Chandra Bose should be just as famous. He, not Marconi, was the original inventor of radio.


[Tell me what does the man in the street know about Sankara, or De Morgan. ]

Just because the man on the street does not know about Sankara or De Morgan, does not mean that George Washington Carver deserves to be a really famous scientist. He was a wonderful human being and no doubt had a way with peanuts, but his contributions to science are not very important(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH).


[In your second post my friend, after you put both your feet in your mouth squarely in the first post. You just wanted one scientist. It`s not really tiring to me to say this.]

Acually you put your feet in your mouth. Consider:

1) You have not named ONE scientist who made important contributions to science beyond George Washington Carver and his peanuts. (And even if you did - that`s only one for so many blacks - which proves my point really).

2) You did a gotcha on my saying 1900s when it should have been 1800s - but even if it is 1800s my point is valid EXACTLY the same - no written script for thousands of years until RECENTLY.

etc. etc.


[Hmmm I would of course have Stephen Hawking be the Prime Minister of England. Most other people would not think so. Horses for courses , I think you have heard of the term. To me Mozart, is as much a genius as Descartes. I would hire him for a director`s post at a conservatory. Not a scientist. Intelligence comes in various forms. I`m sure Alan Turing would have done a better job being Churchill, and vice versa. Yes, No, maybe? ]

Intelligence comes in various forms. Just because my father did not study science does not make him an unintelligent person. BUT HE WAS CAPABLE OF DOING EQUALLY WELL IN SCIENCE. He is a Brahmin, and Brahmins have demonstrated that they are capable of excelling in the sciences as well, many times over. The OBCs, SCs and STs MUST DEMONSTRATE THIS CAPABILITY AS WELL BY EXCELLING IN HARD SCIENCES. THAT, AND NOTHING ELSE, IS GOING TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS. Liberal commies can keep whining till the cows come home, but perceptions won`t change otherwise.


[I`m simply against tarring entire sections of society with one brush.

I`m sorry, but that alone is not going to make you look like an intellectual.



By the way, what`s your full name? (just curious)

In the present era of globalization, poverty places an important role in countries GDP. So for the betterment of our society we need reservations. Reservations in our country are not used for changing SC/ST and OBCs into upper caste.

But to benefit the backward class economically. Reservations in India change with respect to each province. The steady growth of our nation reduced poverty from 36% to 26%. But still approximately 260 million people of our nation are to be economically up lifted. This can only be done through reservation. When we compare our economical scenario in our country 40% of the population gives 55% of GDP. (i.e. four southern states and two western states) and people below poverty line are marginally less when compared to rest of the country in this region.
These six states have almost 50% seats reserved for SC/ST/Backward class. So following this example let us have 49.5% seats reserved in rest of the country. If we want to see India as developed country we need reservations at least for next decade.

Comments by: ravikr1980 Posted on NDTV

i m very pleased with a suggestion that all OBC/ST patients should go to OBC/ST doctors...that will be extremely good because unlike the open category doctor who comes in merit by leaking papers and flexing their financial muscles, the OBC doctor is here through hard earned merit, whats wrong if the govt compensates the wrong doings of open castes with reservations, and mind you OBCs are the majority of this nation 35 % population, if they decide to isolate you from the society you 5% will be forced to beg.

The OBCs have over years contributed more to this nation protecting lazy upper brahmins, who used to be patrons at the courts of these fighter class kings, these open classess have managed to become rich by licking the shoes of british, only lack of oppurtunity has caussed setback to the obcs and SC/STs, and wait till they monopolise this nation once again.
BY amitadeshpande

---

On NDTV

Ref jang #55

[ajeya and harimau, my dear threaded brothers,]

Is that thing about being threaded a sly reference to the fact that we are accused of ``screw``ing the general population? ;)