Has Higher Education Failed India?

Re: # 32
Okay Jang
I have a suggestion. It`s too funny for words but....... Lets double the number of IITs and IIMs, medical colleges . That way the number of seats that the upper class would fight over remains the same. The number of seats the OBC etc have have increased n fold.

Ergo everybody is very happy, some more happy than others, but that`s life. Now will some nice bloke provide the money for all those new colleges? -)

#33 its not that funny..this is in line with what govt is saying..

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/18quota2.htm

``The committee told the students that a mechanism was being worked out by which the number of seats in the general category would not come down once the new reservation policy was implemented.

However, it was also pointed out that working out such a mechanism would take time considering that raising the number of seats was not easy as it was coupled with infrastructural problems like raising the number of teachers and other facilities. ``

Re: # 34
Oh hang, I`m begining to think like the gover-ni-mint. I knew I should have gone for the IAS instead of engineering.

Re: # 34

The UGC has a bar on increase of seats each academic year. Not more than 10%. Some idiot in the Parliament suggested a 50% increase in intake. Kya naatak hai! The universities are as it is having a problem handling the existing numbers. God alone knows how they will manage the proposed additional intake. Perfect masala for further chaos in our higher education set up. On the other hand, its perfect masala for Abhishek to write another article on the pathetic condition of Indian Universities.

#36..hahah..so in 5 years abhishek will write ``Pathetic state of education in IITs``.

Ref krishna_abcd #30

[....Sure, Brahmins were part of the upper caste oppression, and prevented them from getting educated in the knowledge-base that the Brahmins themselves had developed. But THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY OBCs/SC/STs could not develop their own astronomy and mathematics.

Now does it, Mr. Behl?

What is it that prevented them from lying in their own huts and developing their own mathematics and astronomy and philosophy?]

They were busy organizing circle jerks. They didn`t have time for mathematics, astronomy or philosophy.

uba #1

`` This is perhaps due to the fact that a University teacher has no stake in the future of the students. His job is secure, his promotions secure and his pension all the more secure-so where does teaching come in. ``

silly excuse - most tenured jobs in American universities have secure jobs and secure pensions

mineguruji #3

`` As far as reservations are concerned, it is without any doubt a positive step being taken by the government.
IITs and IIMs for long have become the preserve of the rich and the upper caste and class elite. Its high time that these institutions begin to give entry to students from all sections of society. ``

There are very few kids of industrialists in the IITs

mineguruji #21

To Abishek

Reseervations have the potential for tearing India apart. If caste based reservations are acceptabe why not language based reservations ? Why not religion based reservations ? If Kannidigas riot in Bangalore demanding 80% of jobs in Bangalore be reserved for them ?
what would you suggest the Indian government do ?

The backwardness of the lower castes has to resolved by compulsory high quality school education and the self-determination to succeed. The corrupt upper caste dominated governments will not provide them. VP Singh or Arjun Singh as chief ministers have done squat in this regard. They have no problems with reservations because it does not affect their relatives. It will buy them a few votes. Your better bet is to take things in your own hands. Lower caste parents are going to have to pool their resources to educate their kids in costly private schools. As NRI I would be glad to contribute to such endeavours.

2000 low caste students every year in IIT/IIM will not uplift 200 million people.

Re: # 33

That is exactly the ``compromise`` formula suggested by SoniaG and lapped up by her faithful lackeys in the Congress. If it`s that easy to double the number of seats at IITs and IIMs, by all means let`s do it. But that doesn`t change the fact that half of those 2x seats will STILL be going to undeserving people.

This is a pointless debate. Mr. Behl just has to utter that dreaded phrase ``upper class guy like you`` and we stop dead in our tracks, red-faced at our political incorrectness, ashamed collectively of the cruel atrocities ``we`` inflicted and the wealth ``we`` amassed for thousands of years and probably start apologising for Manusmriti, the Vedas, Ajanta-Ellora and miscelleanous ills the poor, oppressed, English-speaking, internet-accessing, politically represented ``lower class`` author and those he claims to represent, attribute to us

:)

Dear friends

If you think that their is no casteism in India and our society is a very homogenious one then just read the news report below.
Had it not been for the constitutional safeguards, government based on democracy, it would have been impossible for Dalits and backward castes from entering into temples let alone officiate as priests.
You must be knowing that the backward caste and Dalits were not allowed to move on roads meant for Brahmins and upper castes prior to independence.

Friends it hurts when the political power and the priviliges slip out of your hands, but it hurts more when privileges sanctioned by social and caste mores for thousand of years remain no longer relevant.
The upper caste are behaving like the Rajwaras and nawabs of yore, not willing to accept the loss of power and that too at the hands of menials of thousands of years.
The report below will make you aware of the kind of privileges enjoyed by the upper castes in the past and even today.

Yours Sincerely

Abhishek Behl


Equality of priestly opportunity

The decision of the Tamil Nadu Government to allow all qualified persons irrespective of their caste to work as temple priests is an important victory in the continuing fight against the social curse that is India`s caste system.
In keeping with a 2002 Supreme Court ruling that non-Brahmins (including Dalits, of course) can function as temple priests if they are ``well-versed and properly trained`` in temple rituals, the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam Government has expressly provided for the appointment of persons from all communities as archakas.
Customs and hereditary rights, including those dating back several centuries, cannot form the basis for continuing practices that violate fundamental rights guaranteed in the Constitution.
Any discrimination in the choice of priests militates against Article 15 of the Constitution, which guarantees the right of equality to all citizens, and Article 17, which prohibits untouchability.
The 2002 verdict, which the State Government now cites, clarifies the position in the context of a 1972 judgment of the Supreme Court that held the appointment of archakas not authorised by the agamas as violative of Article 25, which grants the right to freedom of religion.
According to the 2002 ruling, even if traditionally a Brahmin alone conducted the pujas, this did not mean a person other than a Brahmin was prohibited from doing so.
This has now provided sufficient ground for the Government to make another attempt — after the 1970 amendment to the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Act — to end the discrimination on the basis of caste.

Hey guys listen

The insistence of the medicos that Article 15(5) of the Constitution should not be implemented is akin to the stance of the Sangh Parivar that matters pertaining to faith are above the law.
What is equally disturbing is the indication that the upper caste elite of this country are losing their faith in a fair debate. But that option was foreclosed by way of coercion.

Now the solution is................

and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.
A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.
Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises.
Shocking events, one after the other, in recent times alert us to the ethical degradation that the medical profession is going through.

Yours truly

Abhishek Behl

I felt strange and it was hillarious to look at one Dr Malik, Secretary of IMA, ranting on Television that there was no caste system in India.
I quote `` We consider no one as scheduled castes and OBCS, every one is equal in India and there is no casteism.``
It is harrowing to listen to such people, who perpetrate all the sins of casteism in their daily lives, but are not ready to accept the harsh reality to serve their interests.

When you say that India would be divided on Caste, I must say that India is already divided and bleeding.
Just go to the hinterland and the villages.
The lustre of a Metro-rail and shopping malls in the metros might hide this all pervading institution, but just go in the morning and interact with the sweepers, and you will find that they have been doing this for ages.
The way the medicos are protesting and the manner in which the upper caste media is projecting them, it means that job of a sweeper, a mochi or a car cleaner is demeaning and should be done by those, who have been historically meant to do these.

Yours only

Abhishek Behl

Here are some letters from the Backward castes for the kind perusal of readers.

Quota issue

The protests against the Centre`s proposal to reserve 27 per cent seats for the Other Backward Classes in Central universities are motivated by vested interests. The issue is not about the dilution of standards; it is about denying the backward citizens access to higher education. If the striking students are indeed concerned about declining standards, why do they remain silent on the issue of management quota seats? It is well known that admission to colleges through the quota is by hefty capitation fee. Does it admit meritorious, poor students?

K.M. Abbas,
Ernakulam, Kerala
The protests are unfortunate and unjust. The elite have forgotten that they have enjoyed 3,000 years of 100 per cent reservation in every aspect of life — from education to law making. The backward classes had no access to education. Even today, most sweepers are Dalits and almost all priests belong to the forward caste. The forward castes have not become elite overnight. Better education and occupational opportunities, combined with a false sense of superiority, have helped through generations. It is now time to empower the marginalised sections.

Yogesh Kumar,
New Delhi
Merit is a misnomer for prejudice — prejudice based on religion, and caste. And it is deep-rooted and well-entrenched in people`s psyche. It manifests in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways in all aspects of our life. As long as caste continues to be part of our socio-economic discourse, we need laws to ensure justice and equality.

J.C. Anthony,
Bangalore
The only viable immediate solution seems to be to increase the number of seats by 27 per cent.

N. Ananthakrishnan,
Pondicherry

#31 by swarrier

[Okay let`s not get carried away by this sort of reasoning or prejudices. There are factual errors in your statement.]

One of the advantages of having facts on your side, as opposed to hurried google searches, is that one rarely has to put one`s foot in the mouth.

There are NO factual errors in my statement.

[Continental africa does include Egypt which had its script and for that matter the old state of Israel.]

Yes, Northen Africa has been populated by Arab immigrants for many centuries - the Egyptians are and were a mixed race.


[There are also scripts like the Bassa in the area of Liberia]

Developed in the 1900`s, AFTER exposure to other outside scripts.


[there is Ethiopian script]

The Ethiopian script originated from the Arabic script.


[there is the Vai script from West Africa ..... ]

Developed in the 1900s as well.


[There have been African inventors too. For example Graville Woods invented the telegraph system for communicating with moving trains. He was awarded a patent for that in 1887 . David Blackwell in Berkeley has done fundamental work in game theory. George Washington Carver is well known in the area of biology. ]

The quantity, as well as the quality, is pretty meager. Nothing to write home about.


[Closer to home , I`m not sure you could dismiss Ambedkar as a moron could you? ]

No, I would not. But he was no genius either. There were many other, and more qualified people to do the job. The job was given to him as a symbolic gesture - an appropriate one - in my opinion.

But if you read my post, you will see that I am talking about contributions to the hard sciences.


[I would wish to see a level playing field for all , as difficult as it sounds. Otherwise we just exchange one set of reservations for another. ]

You have two more wishes left.



But seriously...


Since you mentioned prejudices - NOTHING I wrote indicates prejudice. I am pointing at facts, not drawing conclusions from them. I am saying that whining is not going to get you respect - actual achievements in the hard sciences will. I remember an American businessman being interviewed about whether he would employ blacks in his company if they were more qualified than a white person. His answer was that NO businessman would choose someone who would make him less money than another person, regardless of color. So my point is that for that businessman to think that a black person would make him the same, or more money than another white, red, or green person, blacks have to establish a reputation for achievements - whining and affirmative action won`t change perceptions.

The same holds true for OBCs/SCs/STs in India.

And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances. Read the book ``Guns, Germs and Steel``. It got the Pulitzer prize a few years ago. A fascinating read. It explains scientifically and quite convincingly why the spread of education and knowledge has varied the way it has all over the world.

Check it out.