Change Management:Marx and Muslims

#302 Folio

Aah darling, you raise a question involving logistics in matters of the Book!

Most of the times such questions are difficult to answer - because they require people to go read a Book - which, for the average bozo like me - is about as likely as NTSyed saheb taking his pants off to impress the residents of Laloo`s village - highly unlikely to occur and if attempted, highly likely to end in miserable failure!

And as everyone heard the great goateed gentleman indicate earlier, my knowledge of such matters is minimal!

However, there are always exceptions! This one about the seventy-two virgins is the easiest question to answer!

Elementary, my dear Watson!

In the world population, there is a roughly one to one correspondence between men and women. Therefore, if - in heaven - one virtuous man is provided a harem of seventy two virgin women (let us stay away from the alternative (life style) scenario for now) then somewhere else there exists a virtuous woman with seventy two virgin men!!

Imagine that you are a woman and accosted by seventy two horny males who are virgins to boot.

Things can get HOT in a jiffy! Very hot!

While being ably guarded by that gentleman with a tail!

Re: # 298

Krishna,

I think u read Quran so well. Pl tell me one thing. If a good man goes to heaven he can enjoy 64 virgins. What about a good woman? Would she get enjoyment from 64 young Amir Khans or 32 Shahrukh Khans or atleast one Osama Bin Laden or no enjoyment at all?

Dont u think that, like many religious books, this was also written by men?

correction to #300 my comment ``but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was denied even to the prophet himself!!)`` should read:

but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was placed upon the prophet himself as a messenger of God. Thus, anyone else who claims to have special knowledge when he has none - like charlatans in the muslim world do all the time - will face the music on the Judgement Day. While the message of Islam is one that uplifts the individual, these charlatans would replace this message with one which reduces the individual to becoming a slavish follower of these charlatans.

ntsyed #288 coming back to your post... :-)

in reading your post, i can see a basic issue - i.e. individual responsibility vs. ``hadees`` (btw, nobody n Pakistan pronounces hadis as ``hadith``, so I prefer to spell it the way it is pronounced).

So let me ask you:

1. Does the Quran place upon you, the individual, the responsibility to use your God-given faculties to see and to hear and to think rationally and with a conscience??

2. If the answer is to 1. is ``no``, then of course there is nothing left to discuss and I will simply say ``to you be your way, and to me by mine``. If the answer to 1. is ``yes``, then please review your post as a responsible individual and tell me if some of the things you write still make sense to you, e.g. (and I quote from your post):

1. But the good deeds done without the ``faith`` in Allah, His Oneness, His Messengers, Revelation, and the Judgement Day, i.e. iman, will only be rewarded in this life.

2. The verses in Surah Baqarah you refer do not say what you believe. (i assume by this you mean the Quran does not really mean what it says when it says that you can be christian, sabian or any other religion and still have nothing to fear...)

3. the one who possesses good knowledge but does not share it others will be held accountable for not spreading the `message` to others. (btw, this sir is quite contrary to the spirit of the Quran - but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was denied even to the prophet himself!!)

4. o support your argument that emulating and obeying the Prophet (PBUH) is not mandatory and obligatory for Muslims (btw, this is the kind of statement that makes islam the butt of jokes for nonmuslims - and it is pushed by those who seek to put on the prophet`s mantle, like mullah omar who literally wrapped himself in the prophets blanket.)

krishna: Oh god in human form. it is so good to see you descend to the level of ordinary mortals and joke about maleech people`s religions. ha! ha! btw, did you hear the one about the sacred cow, the monkey-man, and the HIB positive guy who walked into a bar?

#297 by jang

[joshi, its very simple, if you read koran and be faithful, you will recieve divine guidance for good deeds automatically. else how will you know what is ``good``?]

Yes, how will you? Do you have a brain or something? Read the Koran, dammit! Have you read about Harut and Marut, you ignoramus? Well if you haven`t, read the chapter called ``The Cow``.


[..that my friens is the crux of the matter. know that if you dont take the right path when its being offered, and that too willfuly, you must pay the price.]

Yes. You WILL fry! That is the crux, so to speak. Infidel! Kafrrrrr! Kooofrrrrrr!!! Fry to a crisp! Fry!

#293
``It`s an AND condition - Allah ``AND`` good deeds.``

joshi, its very simple, if you read koran and be faithful, you will recieve divine guidance for good deeds automatically. else how will you know what is ``good``? that my friens is the crux of the matter. know that if you dont take the right path when its being offered, and that too willfuly, you must pay the price.

ntsyed: i may or may not agree with what you have written - but one thing I agree upon for sure, which is to have a dignified and respectful discussion on matters of religion rather than to have an insult-exchange which gets us nowhere.

I`ll try to get back to the specifics of what you wrote later.

Regards.

indians #294 etc: i realize your great need to drag india and hindus into everything - but i would suggest you try to control this urge. This is a discussion among muslims about muslim issues.

But dont let me stop you from doing your monkey dance.

#292 by subhashjoshi

[Syed sahab, please tell me one simple thing. I am a Hindu, and will never accept muslim faith. Shall I go to hell for this reason?]

Do you even have to ask? Of course you will!

You kafir! kufrrrrr! kifrrrrr! kooofrrrr! kafrrrrr!

Wait...let me clear my throat.

Yes....all of that! Blasted infidel! Kufrrrrrrrrr! They`ll fry you to a crisp. And they`ll keep frying you! Kafrrrrrr!

And you deserve it, too. Why didn`t you hack off the foreskin? Huh? Why did you eat pigs? Do you have the courage to confront these questions?

I guess not.

Kufrrrrrrr! Kafrrrrrrr! Fry! Fry!

correction: # 292

OK I see you answered this already : It`s an AND condition - Allah ``AND`` good deeds. It`s clear. Got to rot.

Re: # 288 by ntsyed

Syed sahab, please tell me one simple thing. I am a Hindu, and will never accept muslim faith. Shall I go to hell for this reason?

#281 by ntsyed


[Again, you don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t know what is being said and why. Becuase then you make foolish statements like ``If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.`` ]

You cannot hold the fact that I am foolish against me. If I have a limited intellect, is it my fault?

But one thing about me - I try. For example - I was trying hard to get the inner meaning of the following sublime words in the apty named section ``The Cow``:

``2.102``: And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, ``Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever.`` Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah`s permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

I have to admit that I lack the courage to delve deep and get to the inner meaning of all this stuff.

Woe is me!

<:-(

I guess it is the fires of hell for me, huh? Do they fry the bad disbelievers? What kind of oil do they use? Probably the type I like the least. I have a born-again Christian friend who told me that Hell is full of gnashing teeth. Is it just teeth - like dentures, or are those the teeth of wild animals and ugly satanic looking residents of hell? Will the teeth be gnashing, or will they bite me as well? Will they tickle me with feathers? I am very ticklish.

It all sounds very uncomfortable. No wonder the smart people convert. I mean look at the choices - convert, and don`t eat pigs, and cut off your foreskin from your penis - and you get all these Houris to have sex with for eternity. Don`t convert, and these blasted teeth will keep biting you for ever!

I think the choice is clear. All I have to do is convert. But do I have to keep a beard also, to be absolutely 100% sure? All this is too deep. Too many deep questions. Do I have the courage to confront these head-on? I don`t think so... Can I choose which oil they use to fry me? No chance, huh? Sigh......

ntsyed and tahmed,

........... we can settle this little matter rather easily by using DNA testing ......... all we have to do is dig up the old prophet who has been restng in peace long enough, and take a dna sample ...... it shouldn`t take long and then he can rest in peace again untill the day of reckoning when the son of god will come back to earth to disturb everyone`s peace ..............

............ and all the syeds around the world - millions of them - should be asked to prove their lineage ........ i am sure we will find that the vast majority - over 90% - are fakes and imposters (although god knows why anyone would want to be related to a bedouin prophet of any kind) ............it is not mathematically possible for one man to have millions of direct descendents in less than fifteen hundred years, regardless of how many wives and concubines he had .........

Bharath,

Yaar if you visit my board .. I left you a couple of comments on Veeresh Malik`s board...

Please feel free to visit them at your convenience.

Re: # 283 by tahmed32

Boy ... do you have your undies in knots or what?

Please thank majumdar for pointing out that I did not even imply superiority over anyone. Goodness, are you always this constipated?

Allah ka wasta Bhai, first read the Quran, understand the meanings of the words and context of the verses as per the historical circumstances.

``This is like asking someone to point out where in the Pakistan Code of Criminal Procedure is there a distinction between those destined for jail and those destined to be free men!!``

Actually it is quite clear in the Quran, i.e. who will be permitted in paradise and who will be condemned to hell. Please refer to authentic ahadith regarding Abu Talib`s destination in the hereafter, even though he was the most ardent of supporters of the Prophet (PBUH) and the Prophet (PBUH) was devastated by his death. I`m sure you will be surprised.

True that the good deeds will be rewarded and the ill deeds warrant punishment. But the good deeds done without the ``faith`` in Allah, His Oneness, His Messengers, Revelation, and the Judgement Day, i.e. iman, will only be rewarded in this life. The big pie up there is reserved for those who maintained faith in Him AND did righteous deeds - not one or the other. Again, refer to authentic ahadith regarding Abu Talib. Otherwise what would be the need for ``FAITH`` in Allah? What would be the point of serving His creation without belief in HIM?

Think about it my logic impaired friend. If IMAN, aka faith on Allah, was not important to reap the benefits in the hereafter, then why would Allah order and remind us over and over again in the Quran that the best of believers are those who emulate and obey the Prophet (PBUH) as they obey Allah? The arabic words for good deeds, `amaal-e-saliha` and `Hasanaat` always follow the the word `iman` in every instance. Why is that, is the question should think about.

The verses in Surah Baqarah you refer do not say what you believe. You don`t need an exegete to understand these if you simply read through. However, your primary understanding is correct that the Message remains the same as day one.

You`re also correct to understand that priesthood (pir, syeds, etc) is prohibited in Islam, but please do understand the word `momin` before you include it in priesthood so carelessly.

I know I will be held accountable for my misdeeds, unless I repent and refrain from them in future. Not that I`m trying to shift the blame on you, the one who possesses good knowledge but does not share it others will be held accountable for not spreading the `message` to others. The simple rule of thumb according to Quran is that Allah will take account of every single thing He gives us, including but not limited to health wealth and knowledge. Otherwise, the whole purpose of Judgement Day becomes meaningless. One needs to read the authentic traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) to learn that in detail.

Whoever told you that the Prophets (pbut) were not required to ``implement`` the Word of God? Yes they were only messengers, and it was not up to them to breath faith into any person`s heart, but the implementation of what they believed in was their primary assignment. Please study the Prophet`s (PBUH) life to understand the correlation.

I suppose you use the last point to support your argument that emulating and obeying the Prophet (PBUH) is not mandatory and obligatory for Muslims, unlike what the Quran repeatedly emphasizes upon. I hope you don`t do that just for the sake of convenience. Because whosoever does that on purpose, treads on very very thin ice, to say the least.

While I continue to study the Quran every opportunity I get, I hope you consult the Book yourself. This is not a pi$$ing contest between you and I. For all I know you probably are a better person than I am, but your understanding of Islam, Quran, and the Prophet (PBUH) is too flawed, and I only mean to help so both you and I could have a good hereafter.

Just do me a favor, please read a tafseer by Ibn-Katheer, or Syed Qutb, or listen to Dr. Israr`s. If nothing else, I`m sure you`ll have more to humor me. If you do find it beneficial, the please go on to read the authentic ahadith by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc.

The rest is between you and Allah.

:-)~~