Change Management:Marx and Muslims

Re: 346 by Folio

Didn`t mean to ignore you there. Just a lack of time.

[Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?]

No, I`m not from South India.

[Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts! ]

Folio, I`m not really interested in Pakistan except for the fact that it has been an intractable enemy and a major pain in the a$$ for India for the longest time. If they feel they are doing better than India - fine. If they think that they are superior in some strange incomprehensible way - that`s all right with me. I just worry about their presence like a melanoma that refuses to go away.

I`m not interested in Paki-bashing. However, when I hear comments about Kashmir from some idiots on this forum (Zeena comes to mind), I feel that people like Arjun deserve an award for the fine work they are doing.

#344 krishna. I am glad you appreciate some of what I wrote. You are entitled you your views on the Quran, and certainly the behavior of too many muslims today and through the centuries is no indication that being a muslim is either necessary or sufficient to being a good human being.

As for what the pope said, I think you are referring to the second Vatican Council held in 1962 (a century after the first one), where the church changed its historical stand and acknowledged salvation was open to nonchristians (jews and muslims being specifically mentioned, but the gates being left open to all). This was part of the effort made by Pope John Paul to end divisions with people of other faiths. So, it wasnt just a flash in the pan, but in fact a historic shift in the church doctrine (at least to the best of my understanding).

#345 ylh i am glad you see the sense behind what i wrote. however, i think ``contemptuous`` is the wrong word you use - i differ from his views, but (as I think my post makes clear) I very much appreciate his sincerity. I just think that his views are shaped by generally prevailing heresay in Pakistan, and that is why I emphasize reading the Quran without any preconceived notions of what the ``islamic`` view really is (since too much of what passes for islam is in fact fiction created over the centuries for the benefit of the rulers, or plain superstition and so forth). The clear and simple message of the Quran (as stated in bold in my post #343 below) then comes through loud and clear.

Here is another gem. I donot believe in Allah or any such monotheistic BS and according to this Quranic blah, i am destined to lie on some evil bed. (i am so scared).

---

003.012
YUSUFALI: Say to those who reject Faith: ``Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.

RE: Krishna and Joshi :
Here is the proper authentic answer to your questions. Allah Mian gave a proper template in al-Quran:


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Man what this board needs is a tolerance of views ... even those that might diametrically opposite to ours... including the claim that some may be descendants of this famous figure or that... though that has no real bearing on present reality ...

That said there is logic to what tahmed says... and I agree with him without sharing his contempt for ntsyed`s point of view... ...

#343 by tahmed32

The last Pope had made a statement to the effect that people of any religion, or no religion at all, can still ``reach`` heaven, if they are good people. He was roundly condemned by conservative Christians all over the globe. For, as they correctly pointed out, what was the point then of converting heathens and thus ``saving`` their souls?

You made a similar statement on this forum. This kind of non-narcissistic thought process is a wonderful development in the Muslim world, and the more Muslims think this way, the better this world is going to be.

However, the central problem will always remain, and will not go away. Because it is codified in the Koran. The message of the Koran is neither ``simple`` nor ``clear``. You may insist on it, but since I do not think you are not more intelligent than me by any appreciable extent, and my reading comprehension is at least as good as yours, as is my ability to do research from multiple credible sources, I am not buying that. The problem will persist until some wise Muslim chooses to remove a lot of hateful sayings from the Koran (by calling them ``inaccuracies` or anything else he wants to), and rewrites Muhammad`s life-story.

That will be the beginning of the end of a lot of trouble and misery in this world.

Re: # 344

Krishna,

Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?,

Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts!

ntsyed #335/339: While wishing you an enjoyable vacation, let me thank you for a sincere discussion. You raise a number of interesting issues in these two posts, to which I have provided my views below for you to consider if you wish while parasailing (Holy Book in hand) in the Bahamas. :-)

Equality of all People: We agree here then. No issue.

Hadees (or Hadith): Your refer to the hadees to reach your conclusion ``not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. . I ask you, why not refer to the Quran for this? Is the Quran not sufficiently clear and emphetic on this matter? Indeed, why not simply rely upon one`s common sense and conscience to reach this conclusion? Since, isnt the over-riding message of the Quran one that places responsibility on the individual to use his God-given faculties to distinguish between right and wrong? And isnt that one simple message worth more than all the Hadith, all khutba ever held put together???!!

The sad reality is that muslim nations are by and large the least respectful, the least tolerant of all nations - isnt this because they have forgotten this simple, clear message of Islam and replaced it with all kinds of instructions cobbled together over the centuries by all sorts of individuals who (per the dictum of the equality of all people) have no greater standing before God than you or me??

3. Faith in Allah This faith is no monopoly of the muslims. Indeed, it is intrinsic to all humans, a part of our psyche. Thus, as in Taoism (and I believe there is something similar reflected in the Mahabharatha) they say ``The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao``: in other words, we cannot understand God. God is the Unknown. The frontiers of physics today are starting to see Creation as being a projection of knowledge from outside our four known dimensions!! Thus, the actionable item in the Quran for all humans is deeds, and intentions and making good use of God-given faculties to see and to hear and to reason . And that, my friend, is what Islam is all about - or would have been all about had it not been used for selfish purposes by kings and caliphs and their paid servants - the qazis - through the ages which has repaced the clear and simple message of the Quran that empowers the individual with an oppressive system that uses shariah to subordinate the individual to the dictates of the will of the king (or caliph, or dictator).

Me too.

Have no desire to further continue this heaven v/s hell baloney.

#332 by ntsyed

I rest my case.

* evil grin *

various by tahmed32

Since I`m about to take off on the best vacation of my life, and may not be able to come back to chowk for a while, I`ll share my concept with you regarding `All people being equal.`

Dear friend, please read carefully: All humans are CREATED equal. It is us who choose to be ``unequal`` with our deeds, which are based on beliefs and so forth. That`s why there`s a need for Judgement Day, because Allah gave each of us a level playing field.

Now, I hope you`ll not post the childish question about why one is created rich and others poor, etc. That`s a separate debate to understand the reasons behind it. Suffice it to say, the word is E-QUALITY, not E-QUANTITY.

I think you`ll appreciate a hadith I heard only recently in which some of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) asked him (PBUH) about why the non-believers have had so much more wealth since as far back as we can think of wealth? And why does Allah allow them to accumulate so much wealth, which brings them immense power to subjugate the common person. The Prophet (PBUH) is said to have said that if all wealth in this entire world was worth one feather of a mosquito to Allah, Allah would not grant the non-believers even one drop of water.

Another hadith I learned not too long ago is not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. There is tremendous wisdom behind it if you care to think.

With this I bid thee adieu & Allah Hafiz,

ntsyed :-)~~

#311 by tahmed32

Keep in mind that I had no interest in disturbing the fool`s paradise you indians live in to begin with.

Fool`s Paradise is where you live in dear Tahmed. The alternate reality where Pakis are decent folks who focus on their own issues. Where the Kashmir issue, Danish cartoons, and the Israel-Palestine conflict are local Paki issues.

But if you losers come running to chowk to ridicule Pakistanis while crowing about India as if you were the Indian Minister for Bullshit and Propaganda, then I dont mind showing you the mirror.

The only thing you`ve been able to do so far is amuse everyone on Chowk right from ntsyed to krishna, two opposite ends of the spectrum. You`re Chowk`s uncrowned village idiot.

Mr. Subhash: This is indeed a non-trivial problem (as my math teacher - Allah bakhshay - would have said). I mean this opportunity hinduism provides for you to return as a bumble bee and mend your ways, while in islam it is a one-way street to the deep frier if you screw up. I must speak to our marketing VP and see if we cannot beat the deal you are getting. In any case: how about those 64 virgin islam gets you?? how about those farm-fresh oranges dripping with anti-oxidants you get in heaven?? Can hinduism match that?!! Of course not!!! :-)

#328 see subhasjee? I knew you would find plenty to be amused by within your own hindu community. :-)

Re: # 330 Tahmed-jee

But I am not after amusement. I just don`t want to go to Hell. Hindus may be funny but they don`t mind if I join them in Heaven. They also give me chance to come back to Earth and enjoy carnal pleasures, as a mongrel or a bee, doesn`t matter. The party remains on. It`s YOUR Islam that wants to deep fry me. So I feel concerned, very concerned. Get it, Sirjee?