No Ground Beneath Their Feet

Re: # 46

swarrier,

Thanks.

If social discourse, in a democracy, fails in inducing legalization then we loose. We accept this loss and go ahead discussing. That is all there is to it.

Re: # 44

GT
There are two chapters of the Kama Sutra that you should read. I`ll have to look it up to find out which ones. They are the only ones that deal with sex , in that tome. . Now there sex is not just associated with penetration. -)

By the way the tone of the Kama Sutra is so pedantic that it should be the Calmer Sutra (Punch).

As for your debate , in terms of the government laying down the law, I think it will be better even though dictatorial. Social discourse will lead to debate, debates will lead to still more debates and precious little will get done.

Re: #45
Urstruly
Legalising prostitution does not mean the government will take over. A licensed shopkeeper or a doctor is not a government employee. I must say that in India though with all those ministers getting caught with their pants down on camera or elsewhere, means that it is a distinct possibility.
However legalising means there will be better exposure to medical care, less black-ma(i)l(e)ing, abduction of children from countries like Nepal, etc more humane conditions ..... This could be a pipe dream but who knows.

As for the rest of your post, again , I hope you have your tongue firmly in your cheek. I don`t think your theory is quite in accordance with Darwin. -)

Re: # 42

There is no reason to get into a tizzy on this important issue. I am only trying to understand the details of it. As devil is in the details, please explain it to me, that if governments legalizes prostitution, then wouldn`t it be effectively taking control of the business. All the pimps would be out of the business and jobs. As the prostitutes would start paying taxes they would demand protection for their businesses (i.e. there personal selves), reasonable working hours, and limited number of rides per day. So with all these caviates a government would not find the business prospect so profitable as it originally thought and mindless activists led them to beleive. And what about unions and strikes. I tell you, it is a bad idea. You know what happend to auto business because of the unions. I know government will then hastly re-privatize the business under pressure from the forces of Globalization and seek private investors. By doing that we will be back to square one. It is a no brainer who will take over the business again - the pimps of course. And this time the capitalist pimps will be cruel. With age of trade unions long gone. The poor sex workers will be left helpless in front of ravenous speculators and prospectors. Bad idea. I say let the nature takes it course. If this profession is good for human evolution the process of natural selection will take over and prostitutes will become dominant specie. And if it is not good for human evolution, then beheadings and stonnings will take care of the pests.

Re: # 39 by FV

FV,

On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics. As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.

Re: # 37

Khurram,

Very interesting. I never even thought about this rule. Shall read the reference with care. In the mean time, it would be nice to know about your perspective.

#38 arstoo,

To add to what you say, I think legalization will help our sisters propect themselves. Definitely, people who need protection will welcome all the help that come their way. Having said that, may I add the possibility that some people (male and female) may wan`t to sell sex of their own free will. Legalization may protect them too. As my letters to Urstruly indicate, I am not against the selling or buying of sex per se. Specially, safe and good quality sex. I understand that some others will be strictly against this aspect.

#39 FV.

There is no question about it, the points you make are valid. From what I can make out, your concerns are with the feasibility of implementation. These concerns have to be looked at thoroughly. In particular, correct me if I am wrong, you seem to be saying that implementation will go out of the window if there is no will to implement. I agree and that is why I am for democratic legalization and that too after extensive debate. Having said that, I agree with you that there is no will for an extensive debate even in Chowk forget India and Pakistan. Nevertheless, and you will agree, that the debate till now has not been that bad :-)

#40 swarrier

While top down institutionalization has worked in the past, I believe that it is not possible given the changed polity of our times. Even if it is possible, as I mentioned to FV above, there will be problems in implementing the law if it is not preceeded by some awareness. Finally, I am ideologically opposed to dictatorial impositions. Do not get me wrong, I know that many such impositions could be good. It is simply that I feel queesy about it - you see I am wary about the powers of the State.

# 42 hamidm2

I cannot disagree :-)

Re: # 35

GT,

...... excellent posts, and i agree that pakis can do anything better than the horrible hindoos if we put our mind to it ! ....... in the area of male prostitution we are perhaps the leaders in the world; nobody comes close to matching the ``nadas`` of bannu and mardan - the only competition they have are the graduates of the local madrassas ........

...... anyway, a lot of pakistanis, like urstruly, like to think that social issues like prostitution, homosexuality, incest, beastiality and petty theft exist only in dar-ul-harb and muslim societies are somehow immune ......... and if they do exist, they have simple solutions to solve them : petty thieves get their hands chopped off; homosexuals get stoned; and animals that engage in beastiality are ostracized - as in the case of dogs and pigs ......... i assume that their solution to getting rid of prostitution is for good momins to take in a couple of sex workers as wives or concubines ....... and if that doesn`t work there is always the optioin of public stoning, lashing and beheading .......

....... but regardless of what they think, prostitution is probably as common in pakistan as in any other country and from what i see and hear, it seems to be growing faster than the gdp ....... when i was growing up (not that i am done with it yet), the business was restricted to the red light areas like hira mandi, patoki, dhok ratta, kasai gali, napier road etc., but now it seems that the business has spread out to other areas including the posh parts of town ........

....... in any case, even though legalization is a good idea it is a pipe dream, at least in the case of pakistan, where we are still struggling with the concept of dogs as pets ........... the best we can hope for is for some ngo to take on the mission of providing health care and eductation to these women and their children so that they can break out of this vicious circle .............

#39
Farzana
{{{{Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai}}

That is the best quote by Farzana.

Re: # 27
GT
Why should the government not step in with a law that legalises prostitution? I believe the British banning Sati was a good thing. Once it is the law it becomes all the more difficult to practise something against it. The social stigma against prostitution, in my opinion, will always cause a roadblock in any attempt to legalise it. Do you think social discourse will lead to prompt legalisation? I do not.

In these cases especially with the large health risks involved (AIDS) it is important to act as quickly as possible. At least legalisation will mean better medical care/prevention etc. There are still things that will escape the net of legislation, but there has to be a start somewhere.

Social discourse will go on forever because a vast majority of the people will say, ``oh that`s not our problem.``

GT, Faruk (also dmji,hamidm, arstoo, khurram on the same subject):

Response to #27 by GT:

You are right about points 3 and 4 and the need for a debate (but just watch how concerned citizens who complain that Chowk is full of Indo-Pak shouting matches veer towards the new piece!)…however, to get to the other points you have raised, I’d like to play devil’s advocate…

[(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement]

The flipside could be that because it is legal there is no moral judgment. E.g. lotteries (no one calls it gambling). Re. children not being ostracised for the mother’s profession, I would personally not like a situation where the kids are cocooned from the ‘shadow’ of the mother and she is disowned by them. A likely scenario that comes with any ‘outing’.

[Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.]

Noble in thought, but not implementable. Say, it is legal…a young unlettered girl can be made to join the profession and even sign (give her thumb impression) and validate her consent.

Now, coming to the other point, how would a woman prove that she was forced into it? Would her neighbour still be available? (Most just disappear after they have sold the girl)? What evidence will she be able to produce, as many of them are disowned by their families back home? If she does decide to sue a year after it is legalised, would there be aspersions cast on her delayed reaction and would that go against her case?

[(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.]

I think this is not quite an accurate comparison. The cereal market is meant to benefit the poor and the rationing is for them. In the case of sex work, the black-marketing would be done by authority figures; the women would not have control. You must be aware that a good deal of the ration stock is hidden by the shopkeepers and sold at market rates to the rich.

[Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.]

All laws are enforced and come from the top; polls are not conducted on specifics. You just said that due to social stigma it cannot be legalised in a democracy…how, then, can you opt for a democratic resolution? So, we would be back to square one. But, as you said earlier, this is an ongoing process of sensitising people…
- - -
#32, 34 by Urstruly:

[I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.]

I am assuming these are exceedingly crucial questions that have been worrying you for a while now. Let me try and answer some…

1. Most of the CSWs are not self-employed.
2. Non-prostitutes are not forcing these women, at least not across the board…many of them are forced into it by their own relatives; what women from other fields (you mean NGOs and feminists) are doing is asking for them to be given a right to conduct the work there are in – due to circumstances or voluntarily – with control.
3. It is not incumbent on women not in the sex trade to reveal their going rate as they have not claimed to be in the reckoning. Incidentally, do you apply the same standards for all men or only gigolos?
4. You should also ask these women what their plans for their sons are, too.

[Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce.]

In Amsterdam, there is a school that teaches the women about the ‘how tos’. Re. blue blood, scientifically there is no connection. Although, historically, it was blue-blooded men who were the biggest patrons; and they knew the potential long before your NYSE idea. But, of course, you seem to revel in the fantasy…

[Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``]

Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai…
- - -

#36 by Subroto:

[Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.]

Since you are not in India, I would suggest you contact Action Aid, as it has branches internationally, so you can keep track of contributions and also choose how it is to be used. I am giving you their India address and those of a few others:

ActionAid India
C-88, N.D.S.E-II
New Delhi 110049

St Catherine`s Home
Veerabhai Desai Road,
Andheri West, Mumbai,
Maharashtra,
India

Prerna
Kamathipura Municipal School,
7th Lane, Shuklaji Street,
Kamathipura, Bombay,
Maharashtra, India

Aasha Mahila Samstha
Gaurabai Clinic (Dawakhana),
13th Lane, Kamathipura,
Nagpada Junction, Mumbai,
Maharashtra, India

Dear Farzana

I feel that legalisation of the profession is first step and it must be done to bring these ladies into national mainstream. Once that is done then they can demand their rights legally and use the courts and parliament for that.

These ladies are an integral part of society and as a society we have a duty of care towards them without bringing the vaginal morality in to the discussion at all.

The question is not what type of profession they are in, the question is that whether there are in safeguards for them in their profession protecting their haelth ( physical & mental ) and whether their children have access to education and ability to choose out of this trade.

Of late India happens to have lot of sex tourism and we must protect our sisters.

An alternative to legalization,

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

``In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex``

``In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. ``

``In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil.``

``In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.``

Touching and sad. Do you think that legalisation of prostitution would help to provide better rights to sex workers and their families? Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.

Re: # 34 by Urstruly,

``I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``.``

To start with, simple high school education is enough. If you want to learn about intricacies the best way out is ``learning by doing``. With legal prostitution, it is highly likely that you will have to pay for such learning, unlike now where many experts get by without paying.

``As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``.``

I see no problems with this. Your local newspaper should have daily advertisements from many such companies. In Pakistan and India advertisements are through `gossips` and `legends`. When the time comes for such companies to go public, you should have no problem. Do not buy their stocks.


``Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible.``

I suggest that Pakistan not give up without trying. Quality matters. Just because you may not be good at it, does not mean that other Pakistanis are bad at it.

`Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh ..... uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi`` `

If and when it comes to that, we shall point out that monogamous relationships should not be stigmatized. After all it has existed for such a long time, it is better that we openly accept such relationships as something which simply happens.

Re: # 33

Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce. As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``. Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible. The first company that will register itself in Karachi Stock exchange will have initials ``CHU``. Bush will come to India and Pakistan, but he will only strike a deal of mutual cooperation with only India leaving Musharaf wringing his hands. Dr. Hoodbhoy will write an article at chowk whining that we should have a sexless deal in south Asia. Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``

#32
Urstruly sahib

I am not lecturing you. Just offering you my humble suggestions in a plain and simple English. Yes, I am glad to see the change in your tone.........which is now more polite towards prostitutes than before.

At least you found a soft corner for those suffering individuals.

These sex workers along with their kids should be given all the rights as other citizens do have.

All these questions are very simple to answer.

All we need is a recognition of this profession along with their kids with the clear mind, NO ifs or buts..............Once they will get their recognition as sex workers, then all these solutions will come up to be solved in seconds.

And, Yes, they can work as a medallion, with cash receipt, with tax deductibles or tax cuts, whatever the situation will be. And, yes they will need a liscence, certification, audit as well. It is just like any other profession..............

This department will be under the ministry of citizen wellfare. Yes, this name is quite right.Title of the minister will be citizen wellfare minsiter.

Why are you making it complicated? If we put our hearts and minds in to this issue I am sure this is possible and this will solve at most 50% of their problems along with their kids...............thanks

Re: # 29

I think you have a problem with reading comprehension. I did not in any way cast a judgement on prostitutes as to whether they are moral or immoral; au contrair I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.How much a medallion gonna cost? Hamidm? How are we gonna tax the prostitutes anyway. Will they issue a cash receipt to each customer? How will tax audit take place and who will do the audit. Will rpostitutes be operating out of government outlets? Will government create a new department with dispatchers, controllers and manager? What ministry this department will be under? What would be the title of the minister........I am all questions and you all you have to give me is lectures??